My Back Is Burning. Chemicals Seem Fine

[CleJohn]

First time spa owners here. After 4 years of going to the woods and renting a cabin with a hottub my CPA wife says to me

"You know we dont sightsee that much anymore we just sit in the hottub the whole time. We should go get a hot tub. I have crunched he numbers and it probably would pay off in 3-4 times if you calculate ALL the things we do when we are there."

So.. 4 weeks later yours truly had a Viking ETS in my back yard with a new plastic pad perfectly leveled and absolutely 100% dialed in 50a service disconnect.

My was has taken to the chemicals as well. She used to be a lifeguard when she was in high school so I figured.. she is detail oriented.. managed the whole pool. Sounds like she is the best one to do the chemicals. I tend to "cut corners"

anyhow. I have used the tub every day for the past 4 months. something that has happened to me since like week two was. when I go to bed.. my back feels burned.. kinda like a sunburn but.. I dont know more like what I imagine a chemical burn is.

I have read enough of this forum while I waited for my verification email to come and I have seen that I am not an unusual Spa user. You guys

my wife tests with test trips daily she says all the numbers are perfect.

We use a Nature2 system where she is using the Non Clorinated shock (tsp after use) daily and like a weekly Chlorine (I think that is it) treatment.

now.. granted I am using this hot tub like a mad man.. I love it. I thought I might get tired of it.. but I havent.

so could it be something in the Nature2 system causing my irritation?

I have NEVER had a problem with a bromine solution. That is what they use at the cabins. Granted we spent only a week there and I would use it then 5-6 times a day.

Thoughts?

oh and at the beginning of this week I got some itchy small bumps all over my arms and legs. I stopped using the tub for 2 days and it seems to have subsided.

I hope that isnt something crazy.

[Spa_Guru]

Odds are you have a case of psudomonas folliculitis, or infected hair follicles.

It is caused by too low of sanitizer levels for the amount of bather load.

[CleJohn]

Ok.. so what do I do now?

I have searched the forum for the description of folliculitis.

A couple things. The bumps dont hurt when I press them. They arent as big as the pictures. It also seems like they dont get aggrivated with hot tub usage.

could it be the MPS sensitivity? (That is what my wife puts in)

Nature2 system, Di-chlor and MPS

Dichlor weekly

MPS is daily. 4 tsp to 6 tsp a day.

Which is a total guess. she has strips that test MPS but I just went and tested and MPS doesnt show up at all.

So.. I guess is there a good guide system on how to use the Nature2 system somewhere. I searched "Nature2" here and didnt find a faq.

is there a BETTER system? I am going to read that bleach option as that seems to be the one people like here.

I am kinda upset.. dont feel like I can get in the tub now.. dont know if I should be draining it..

yea.. This week I have been in 3 times in the past 7 days and I like to use it a lot more than that. I am not really getting an answer from my wife on it. She thinks she is using TOO much chemicals.

[Spa_Guru]

Another possibility is that you are suffering from high pressure micro-tears, burning and itching, as well as redness can come from pressure exceeding about 15 PSI, when your skin literally starts to tear, and spa water gets embedded in your dermis. If it was chemical sensitivity, it wouldn't be just your back. Pseudomonas affects people to differing degrees based on hair follicle / skin pore size and sensitivity to bacteria.

[Spa_Guru]

By the way, adding Chlorine is not something you should be doing on a calendar schedule, you should be adding it according to need, and with a Viking, I'd recommend nudging it towards the high side of the normal range.

[CleJohn]

Well I just took a dip in the hottub after reading that is it bacterial or chemical and read up on it. Was in for 15 minutes (one cycle)

so if it is chemical I guess we will find out shortly. It said if it is bacterial it will make no difference. So.. here we go. The wife has no such sensitivities. She is a 3-4 time a week or less user. I am once daily for certain sometimes 2-3 per day.

Well she is thinking that she isnt adding enough di-chlor and is going to put in more. We are going to have to get a tester system too. That TAylor looks good but it might not be locally available. I will probably be on the doorstep of the Leslie pool supply place at 10am tommorrow (with a water sample too)

Dunno. we need to get to the bottom of this.

[Roger]

I have a sensitivity to MPS kinda just like that. Effects my legs more than anything. Red spots and itching.

[waterbear]

With the Nature 2 your sanitizer is MPS and silver. MPS is a known irritant to many people.

[CleJohn]

Thank you for all the comments.

Went to the local pool place "Leslies Pool Supply" Had a younger girl there 25 ish. She knew what she was talking about. She tested our water and said "Everything is good"

We also bought a rebranded Taylor test kit just because. The red dots ARENT getting worse I have gone in a few times since then. My wife is going to try to start using more chlorine instead of using the MPS. The girl behind the counter echoed the "you might be getting microtears.. or your back might jsut be getting dried out (try lotion) She said she has sensitve skin and it happens to her "the burning sensation"

The funny thing is too the little bumps are going away and they ARENT leaving behind that super pigmentation thing.

so who knows.

also changed the filter. I think I am going to change it weekly. The tub is close to the house and I really like doing it anyhow. Feels like I am making a difference cleaning it.

[waterbear]

We also bought a rebranded Taylor test kit just because.

Just because it is a rebranded Taylor does not mean it is the one that is recommended. The recommended kit is the Taylor K-2006 with the FAS-DPD chlorine test (titration test with a color change from pink to colorless--NO comparator block), not the K-2005 with the DPD chlorine test (comparator block with shades of red) The equivalent Leslies kit to the K-2006 would be the Chlorine FAS-DPD service test kit (which is not normally stocked in most Leslie's stores and needs to be ordered online). The Kit ususally stocked is the DPD Complete Chlorine kit which is the K-2005 equivalent. If you got any of their other kits they are either ones that do not contain all the tests or "home kits" (1000 series) that do not have the same precision because of the smaller comparator and different reagents used in some tests.

The red dots ARENT getting worse I have gone in a few times since then. My wife is going to try to start using more chlorine instead of using the MPS.

You have to pick a sanitizer system. Either you are going to use Silver/MPS or you are going to use Chlorine It is not a matter of 'using more chlorine instead of MPS". You are either going to use Chlorine, in which case you should read up on the 'dichlor/bleach" method or you should make sure you have an MPS residual in your water BEFORE soaking and oxidize with chlorine weekly or more often if needed to make sure there is silver ions in the water (the N2 cartridge has silver nitrate impregnated ceramic beads inside. These beads get coated with biofilm and the purpose of the "chlorine shocks' is to remover this biofilm so the beads can continue to release silver in the water. Your sanitizer in this case is the silver ions AND the MPS which is catalyzed by the siver at the elevated water temperatures found in spas. MPS is NOT a santizer at lower temperatures with or without silver.

As far as the skin irritation, besides the fact that MPS is a known irritant and the possibility of microtears from the water pressure of the jets, some people are just sensitive to hot water just dropping the temperature a few degrees can make all the difference in the world. Remember that if you are sitting back against the shell of the tub you will be possibly trapping in a bit more heat against your back, which could explain why it is only your back.

However, the fact that you said that when you tested for MPS there was no reading leads me to believe that Spa_Guru is right and that the water is undersanitized. There is supposed to be a residual of MPS in the water BEFORE you soak. If there is not a high bather load then just adding MPS after the soak is usually sufficient but if there is a high bather load or high bather to water ratio (such as in your 270 gallon spa which probably only has about 230 gallons or so in actuality) then you might need to add MPS before AND after, since the higher the bather to water ratio (read the smaller the spa) the harder it is to keep properly sanitized!

Hope this helps!

[john44111]

You know the whole inability to adequately test MPS (without a 79 dollar test kit) (ok the Taylor is 50 on the web) seems dangerous. nah of course they sold us the 29 dollar kit and she said "your levels are fine. Just bring it up here when you change the water and we will test all 7 levels for you. Hmm.. well.. I THINK the bumps are going away but honestly I am just getting itchy in other places but it isnt as bad. Still got the bumps.. but then again Ive already been in the Tub this morning once before work and yesterday I was in three times. The day before that twice. (generally one cycle 15 minutes) Hmm.. just guess i will keep having to test. My wife "sees" the slight yellow tinge.. but i can see the titration one where it goes pink on a small detection being a lot better.

hmmm.. still a mystery... probably was low chemicals. She was trying to prevent me from getting burned.

[waterbear]

MPS tests as combined chlorine. However, so does any oxidizer, including ozone. If you want to test MPS Taylor has a special reagent add on kit for both the 1000 and 2000 series DPD and FAS-DPD kits. If your kit has a comparator with yellow blocks it is an OTO kit and is pretty much not what you want at all! OTO only tests total chlorine (which would include any MPS levels). The MPS strips sold by Nature 2 and others will also read high if there is ozone present, btw.

Welcome to the world of chemistry and water testing!

Take heart, it's not that hard. I would suggest switching from N2 to either chlorine or bromine since you did not have problems with a bromine tub. I suspect it is an MPS sensitivity. If you go the bromine route use bleach as your oxidizer, not MPS. If your tub has ozone remember that ozone destroys chlorine and vice versa so your chlorine demand (the amount of chlorine needed to maintain a specific free chlorine level) might be higher than without ozone. It really depends on tub usage. With bromine you will probably need less ozidizer (bleach) to maintain the bromine levels and might have to keep the floater at a lower setting.

[waterbear]

As far as the price of test kits consider this...you spent literally thousands on your spa. Is spending about 80 dollars on what is probably you most important accessory for it really a lot of money? The Taylor kits are the best value for the money, BTW. If you don't believe me look at prices for LaMotte, Palintest, and Hach! Only LaMotte offers an FAS-DPD kit and it is about twice the price of the K-2006!

[waterbear]

As far as the price of test kits consider this...you spent literally thousands on your spa. Is spending about 80 dollars on what is probably you most important accessory for it really a lot of money? Your spa is about $4500, correct? that mean if you spent the full retail price on the kit is it about 1.75% of the price you paid for the spa! The Taylor kits are the best value for the money, BTW. If you don't believe me look at prices for LaMotte, Palintest, and Hach! Only LaMotte offers an FAS-DPD kit and it is about twice the price of the K-2006!

[Spa_Guru]

I concur, Taylor brand kits are very much worth the money, they are a fraction of the cost of a doctor's office visit or a spa repairman call :-)

[john44111]

MPS tests as combined chlorine. However, so does any oxidizer, including ozone. If you want to test MPS Taylor has a special reagent add on kit for both the 1000 and 2000 series DPD and FAS-DPD kits. If your kit has a comparator with yellow blocks it is an OTO kit and is pretty much not what you want at all! OTO only tests total chlorine (which would include any MPS levels). The MPS strips sold by Nature 2 and others will also read high if there is ozone present, btw.

Ugh.. that IS what I have. so.. heh.. sounds like the kit is "worthless" I also have 2 different style of strips too (one of which is the actual nature 2 ones.

so. I think what we are hearing here is MPS sensitivity = itchy bumps TOO. not just focculitis? Sounds like what i am hearing. Or if we are talking about the burning back. Heck the burning back thing I am actually fine with. I am one of those weirdos that LIKE sunburn after a nice day sailing or boating.

Welcome to the world of chemistry and water testing!

Take heart, it's not that hard. I would suggest switching from N2 to either chlorine or bromine since you did not have problems with a bromine tub. I suspect it is an MPS sensitivity. If you go the bromine route use bleach as your oxidizer, not MPS. If your tub has ozone remember that ozone destroys chlorine and vice versa so your chlorine demand (the amount of chlorine needed to maintain a specific free chlorine level) might be higher than without ozone. It really depends on tub usage. With bromine you will probably need less ozidizer (bleach) to maintain the bromine levels and might have to keep the floater at a lower setting.

Ahh.. yes. I have the Viking Royale ETS-5 and yes it does have Ozone in it. That is super interesting finding out that ozone kills the chlorine. ugh..

that makes this even harder.. ok.. I am taking heart however I appreciate the feedback on this. I honestly feel like I am going to get this right here sooner than later.

you know what the hard thing is.. is I REALLY REALLY dont see this documented well anywhere. This Nature2 system and since you have to run low chlorine numbers because of this mysterious silver thing it makes it so you really CANT be sure if you are sanitizing it right or not. I keep hearing about this bleach thing. I am going to go give that a read too. I saw that FAQ day one and never got around to it since we have the nature 2 system.

what is funny is i have had 4 COMPLETELY different ways we have been told how the N2 system works. None of which seem right. It seems like the REAL way is to be able to test MPS RELIABLY (Titrate way?) so you can ensure proper sanitiation levels.

Well I am pretty good at describing things. I have been known to be able to write pretty good "For Dummies" versions of things. I think when i get this figured out I will just write a for dummies N2 System guide and make a video.

I CERTAINLY cant find a video on it ANYWHERE.

Thanks again for all the help those who replied.

[john44111]

ok one week update. I am still itching like mad. I have had my water tested TWICE now. both times I am told. "it is perfect"

The bumps I am getting arent little pimples and they arent really visible either.

I was searching for Monopersulfate rash and came across this post

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26450&p=119364

where she desribed her symptoms and I think I am having the same thing.

I have just recently been getting itchy after using my spa. The itch (no rash, mind you) occurs about 12 hours after getting out of the spa (and showering) and lasts 24+ hours, and is very intense. My husband, son and my friend that I soak most often with are not affected. It's mostly on the backs of my legs, and the insides of my elbows and knees. Not so much where my swimsuit covers. We are trying to figure out if it's a pH issue (but our test kit says about 7.6) or if I'm sensitive to the stuff in the MPS. We use chlorine and try to keep the levels between 2-5 ppm, have a Nature 2, and the spa has an ozonator (not sure if it's actually producing ozone). It's a 1996 Sundance Optima, and I had no issues the first 6 months that we had it (bought it refurbished in March 2010). I don't have the itch the first couple of uses after a water change, and the itch is worse if I stay in the tub longer. Help if you can please! I'm afraid to get back in the water!

You can see her post history..

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showuser=30535

She posted didnt get an answer and didnt post a follow up but her issue sounds the same as mine. I sent her a PM maybe the email system gets through to her and she responds. I dont know I am at a loss.

Now I have had my water tested twice now both times they tell me "I am good"

so is it possible that what I am experiencing is a rash to the Non Chlorine Shock (Potassium Peroxymonosulfate)

The stuff on the left

So, i am kind of wondering where to go from here.

I can be reasonably assured water chemistry is good (I assume from what I am being told at the store and what I read here)

Do I have an allery or am I sensitive to this stuff?

It has been a week and the itching keeps coming and it goes in similar places. my back of my legs and my back where my shoulder blades are. It keeps itching it seems to go away then it comes back.

Id even say it is starting on my stomach as well. no bumps there just "itchy"

so... What possibilites are there?

get out of the tub until it completely clears up? I am guessing that will take at LEAST a week at this point.

Visit a dermatologist? That is going to be weeks before anyone sees me (specialist)

change to Bromine? (I've been in bromine systems before and never had any problem but like that womans post. I was FINE the first 6 months of this nature2 system

NOW all of a sudden something is going on and I have a "barely" visible rash but am very itchy.

Thoughts?

Ive got lots of things to try but all of them are going to take a lot of time and energy to accomplish.

Oh and this post might be due for a move since it is mostly about pool chemicals not just spas and pools. I didnt see the other one when I originally posted this thread.

[john44111]

Here is a HELL of an article on PPMS. The Natures Way Spa Shock which is Potassium Peroxymonosulfate.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2921763/

Wow.. what a read

The most notable aspect of these patients is that they are all men. If men and women were equally likely to be allergic to PPMS used in hot tubs, we can assume the theoretical probability is that 50 percent of the affected patients should be men. In this assumption, the theoretical probability of exactly eight out of eight patients randomly being men is 1 in 256. This is a highly statistically significant finding (p=0.0039), meaning it is appropriate to reject the theory or hypothesis that men and women are equally likely to be affected by PPMS.

There are several other notable aspects about these patients. First, the age range is relatively small, with patients all being between the ages of 45 and 80. Second, the distribution of dermatitis follows what would be expected. Third, in patients for whom data was available, flares started quickly following exposure, with an increase in itching starting within 6 to 12 hours of exposure. Fourth, hot tubs appear more likely to be problematic than pools. Finally, it appears that testing with ammonium persulfate is an adequate screening test for allergy to PPMS used as a shock chemical, as 7 of 8 patients tested positive with at least a 2+ reaction.

So.. interesting stuff.

1. All men

2. ages 45 and up (I am almost 42)

All this information but I am only confused as to what path to take now....

[Roger]

Skip the MPS and use Chlorine.

[john44111]

Skip the MPS and use Chlorine.

but.. I am not using MPS.

I am using the Nature 2 system with this.

Which is PPMS not MPS.

so do I stop using N2 all together and go to a straight chlorine system? Straight Bromine?

what system would be the "chlorine system"

[Dr. Spa]

same thing

[Dnepr Dave]

Switch to the Dichlor/Bleach method of sanitizing your water.

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=23090

It is way cheaper than any other sanitizing system and it doesn't use MPS

Check out the link.

Dave

[john44111]

Switch to the Dichlor/Bleach method of sanitizing your water.

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=23090

It is way cheaper than any other sanitizing system and it doesn't use MPS

Check out the link.

Dave

got it printed and bought plain bleach on the way home

now just need to figure out if i HAVE to drain the tub and start fresh. It is 27F outside and I changed the water 3 weeks ago.. :/

[wondertub]

On ‎3‎/‎15‎/‎2013 at 10:54 AM, CleJohn said:

Thoughts?