Cancer Patient Toxicity Chlorine Concerns

[RedCourt]

Hi All,

I'm a newbie - just bought a nice used hot tub that will be delivered this weekend. It appears to have been well maintained, but I am still planning to use Nitro's decontamination process before it is going to be used. I am also currently a cancer patient. I'm a 37 year old woman with no significant family history of breast cancer yet wham, cancer. I tend to think (and my oncologist agrees) that environmental toxins are the most likely culprits for the increases in cancer rates in younger people... I have therefore become quite the product hippie. Everything in the house as certified organic or at least as natural as possible... (my SO is very sweet to keep using my homemade toothpaste - LOL). I do however also have a compromised immune system from chemo/radiation so I don't want to risk unproven methods of water chemistry maintenance.

There is a LOT more to maintaining a hot tub than I expected, but I do a lot of food chemistry for my business so I'm ready to jump in and tackle it! :-) I am one of those *** retentive people that researches the ever loving heck out of things before trying them so my current plan is to do the decontamination and proceed with chlorine (Dichlor I guess?) if/until I find a less potentially toxic option for maintaining the new Hot Tub. (Chlorine appears to be less of a toxic risk than bromine)

I have several question I'm hoping someone can help me with:

1) Peroxide - Has anyone got any experience with using Hydrogen Peroxide instead of chlorine or bromine to keep the hot tub water clean and safe? I have been reading a little about it, but I am so new to this that I'm not trying anything without WAY more info.

2) Shopping List - I'm trying to get ready for the disinfection/decontamination and initial fill. A Taylor K-2006 is on the list as is the swirl away (couldn't find spa flush on Amazon) and bleach but regarding the other chemicals I'm going to need for the water:

- Is Dichlor a brand name or is any chlorinating granule the same chlorine/acid blend? (Kem-Tek keeps coming up on my searches)

- What about the calcium chloride, is that the same as the kind I use in the test kitchens or is there a difference for spa usage?

- Borates, I can't find online, is this the same as straight boric acid?

I'm sure I'll have more questions as I go, but I appreciate any help I can get so thanks in advance!

RedCourt

[chem geek]

Hydrogen peroxide as a disinfectant is approved for use in Australia as listed at the bottom of http://www.apvma.gov.au/use_safely/pool/registered_spa.php'>this link, but only for spas. It is not approved for such use by the EPA in the U.S., but that only prevents disinfection claims on labeling -- the government doesn't prevent you from doing what you want in your own home -- similar to regulation of commercial kitchens, but not home kitchens. Generally speaking, the dose level needed for disinfection when using hydrogen peroxide can be irritating to the skin though this varies by person.

If you want a low-chlorine approach, then I'd recommend using Nature2 with non-chlorine shock (MPS) since the silver ions plus MPS in this system are approved by the EPA as a disinfectant that works. You may still need to add chlorine on occasion every week or so to keep the water clear, but it's mostly a non-chlorine non-halogen (i.e. not bromine either) system. MPS can also be irritating to some people, but usually it's the minor component that comes with MPS and that is essentially removed in the presence of silver ions which makes the Nature2 system tend to be more palatable to more people.

The other non-halogen system is Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB, but it has more issues and I wouldn't recommend it. Other alternatives are not EPA approved, such as enzyme systems, biofilm prevention systems, etc. We had a spate of hot tub rash/itch/lung incidents reported on this forum over the years and most were due to using too little disinfectant or to alternative disinfectants or to a low active chlorine level from CYA buildup, but the sample size is too low to be definitive about any of these. Nevertheless, after promoting the Dichlor-then-bleach method we haven't had these incidents, at least for those using that method, but again the sample size is small.

Most chlorinating granules are nearly pure Dichlor, but you need to look at the ingredients list to be sure. Dichlor is the short name for sodium dichloroisocyanurate dihydrate which is also known as Sodium Dichloro-s-triazinetrione Dihydrate. This is chlorine, but for every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Dichlor it also increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 9 ppm and that makes the chlorine less effective over time as the CYA builds up. The cancer risk is low with chlorine properly used and with the Dichlor-then-bleach method you can have the water last longer and maintain a much more consistent level of active chlorine. If you want, I can link you to information on the studies that people get all worked up about, but when you get into the details it's not as alarming as those with a financial interest in "alternatives" claim. Nevertheless, there are alternatives that are approved disinfectants as I mentioned above.

I don't know what you mean by "test kitchens" but calcium chloride is found in certain road salt products such as Peladow and Dowflake. Of course, you can buy it as calcium hardness increaser from a spa store. You don't want to add too much because you don't want to get scaling, but raising the Calcium Hardness (CH) to 120-150 ppm can reduce foaming. Technically, you could add magnesium chloride (not magnesium sulfates since you don't want to add a lot of sulfates) that would also reduce foaming without the risk of calcium carbonate scaling, but that's harder to find.

Borates can be added from boric acid or from a combination of 20 Mule Team Borax (sodium tetraborate decahydrate) and acid. Boric acid is easiest because it doesn't change the pH very much and is just one item to add, but it's somewhat more expensive (though with spa quantities this usually isn't a big deal).

[RedCourt]

Chem Geek - YOU ROCK! Thank you :-)

I would love links to the studies if you have them, I am a big advocate of reading the actual studies, especially as more and more "news" sources are laying off their science writers. Reading the original studies is the only way to get accurate information it seems. (google anything + cancer and the misinformation all over the place is absurd!)

I test out recipes and processes for different food and cooking techniques. Calcium chloride is used in a variety of molecular gastronomy applications to make fancy little balls out of liquids. I was just wondering if food grade was different or if it is all the same.

Thanks again for the answers!

Court

[chem geek]

Food grade calcium chloride is probably even of higher purity than what is normally used for pools and spas, but it's probably more expensive as a result.

As for studies and information, I think the most detailed place to start is with the http://whqlibdoc.who.int/ehc/WHO_EHC_216.pdf'>World Health Organization (WHO) Environmental Health Criteria 216 Disinfectants and Disinfectant By-Products. Just note that this is about the numerous studies mostly on chlorinated drinking water, but there is lots of detailed data in this summary of numerous peer-reviewed scientific papers in respected journals.

Some studies from Barcelona regarding pools got people excited and you can read about them in http://www.troublefreepool.com/new-chlorine-scare-t26989.html#p222818'>this post, but be sure to read the update in http://www.troublefreepool.com/new-chlorine-scare-t26989-20.html#p320890'>this post and the one that follows it that links to a very interesting history of chlorine use.

There was also a time when some claimed that chlorinated by-products aggravated asthma, but you can read about that in http://www.troublefreepool.com/asthma-and-chlorinated-pools-t17089.html'>this thread where you should be sure to read to later in the thread where I update with the latest info.

So what about chlorine use in your spa? Generally speaking the brominated disinfection by-products are worse than the chlorinated ones with higher risks of causing cancer even though those risks are still low. Also realize that with the use of some CYA in the water, this significantly lowers the active chlorine level so the rate of creation of disinfection by-products as well as the oxidation rate of swimsuits, skin, hair, hot tub covers, etc. Most studies are with indoor commercial/public pools or spas where no CYA is used. The net cancer risks from some pool studies (almost all are with high-bather load pools) may get down into the 1 in 10,000 range for lifetime risk with constant (i.e. daily) exposure which is higher than the desired 1 in 1,000,000 target the EPA generally uses for drinking water standards, but this is a far cry from much more substantial risks that we normally associate with cancer (see http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/wyntk/cancer/page3) and it's still not something showing up definitively in epidemiological studies.

[RedCourt]

Thank you again, I really appreciate the way you cite your information and back up what your saying. It is a very rare thing these days. :-)