Tripping Gfci About Once Every Two Weeks... How To Diagnose

[miatawnt2b]

Our hot tub is tripping the gfci about every two weeks. I have no idea how to diagnose teh problem since it it so intermittent without simply throwing $$ at replacing pieces. Any thoughts on diagnostics?

Thanks

-J

[Spa_Guru]

I would first disconnect the heater element and see if the problem goes away.

The vast majority of the GFI tripping issues I repair are heater element related.

Ozonators that have a failed one way valve can also trip a GFCI, as well as blowers, if you have one.

[benny3]

Hi everyone - thanks for the responses. I guess I need to explain a little further and why this is so confusing to me. The Sweetwater (by Sundance) Palermo spa is from 2000. I've always had it running and never shut down except for water changes and minor repairs that just come with age (all done by authorized Sundance repairman).

The spa has an outdoor cut off for the power which isn't a GFCI with a pop-type switch as in other GFCI outlets. The one I have is a metal box where the power lines runs into it and it is mounted on the brick on the outside of my house. When you lift the lid of the metal box, there's a copper plate with a plastic handle. When you pull this completely out of the box, the power is cut to the spa.

In addition, my indoor circuit breaker box for my house's electric service has a GFCI breaker included in the box (down at the bottom of the box). This is where the problem is occuring and only randomly with no set pattern. I've never had this indoor breaker pop since I've had the spa for 12 years. Recent repairs to the spa were a new light bulb for the original Sundance ozonator (replaced in September of 2012) and a new 2-speed original Sundance motor/pump (replaced in October 2012), by Sundance repairman. The spa ran well for 3 months, with the ozonator, 2 speed motor/pump, 1-speed circulation pump, and heater all running at the same time and no problems at all.

Then in January 2013, once a week for 3 weeks in a row, the indoor breaker popped. We reset the breaker and all was fine each time. We did nothing different to the spa nor the electrical service to the house. Throughout February, we had no issues at all. Then this past Friday, the indoor breaker popped again for no reason.

What is confusing me is why does this do it randomly? If it were something wrong with the spa (like a ozonator, heater, blower, etc.), wouldn't it happen all the time? Why would it run fine for 3 weeks then one day pop the breaker, then run again fine for another week or two before popping again? If it were the indoor GFCI, wouldn't it just break and not work versus working part of the time? I'm not an electrician or versed in spa repair, but from the responses I've received, it seems like it could be a bunch of different things, one of which (the indoor GFCI) isn't even related to the spa repairman. I don't mind calling out the repairman for service, but I had to see him coming 3 or 4 times and replacing various parts and then going 3 or 4 weeks with no problems, then having it blow the circuit breaker again. I guess my problem is that the repairman can replace something and the spa runs great for 3 or 4 weeks, then it starts acting up again.

This all just has me really confused, so I hope I explained it further to all of you to help narrow down why this might be happening. Thanks for all of your suggestions and ideas.

[Spa_Guru]

Minute water leaks in the heater can cause this problem, and by minute, I mean too small or slow to see with the naked eye.

It can be random simply because you use the spa random amounts and it will leak faster on high speed.

Heater elements that cause this problem often have nothing wrong with them that you can detect with the naked eye.

[n1oty]

You may wish to bring in a hot tub tech who has the ability to properly ground fault test the tub components with the use of a megohmmeter (most do not know how to do this, although it is simple to perform). Ground faults are rarely dead shorts to ground, which is why most standard meters don't always catch them. The megger, however, can readily track high impedance "shorts" to ground. I get about a dozen or so jobs a year with intermittent issues like this and the megger easily catches it. Other possibilities include a bad GFCI breaker or even a ground fault in the electrician's conductors to the tub.

It is important to understand that ground faults are not static conditions, they are dynamic. The "degree" of the fault can change based on many factors, but it has to worsen to the point that approximately 5 mA of current flows to ground. Anything less that this will not trip the GFCI.

John

[Spa_Guru]

The way to test for free is to disconnect the heating element.

If you don't know what the problem is, then find out what it isn't.

To give you probability factors, in 29 years of doing this, I have seen 3 bad GFI breakers and thousands of corroded elements.

[Spa Board Doctor]

With random trips it is usually best to start with the basics. GFCI's will trip three ways. 1. ground fault, 2. over amperage, 3. overheat. When there is time involved between trips you should first look at the wiring on the tripping breaker. Check the line/load terminals for tightness and if you can get more than a quarter turn on any screw this is your problem. Loose terminals will cause the electrical current in the line to eddy (just like river water eddies as it flows past an obstacle). The eddy current creates heat and the heat can build up in the breaker causing it to thermally trip. If all connections are tight and the trip continues then disconnect heater, air blower, and ozonator (in that order) to isolate the bad component.

BB

[Dr. Spa]

So, disconnect the blower for what?: Three weeks to see if it trips? And if it doesn't, then the ozoznator for three weeks? Then the heater for three weeks?

[Spa_Guru]

So, disconnect the blower for what?: Three weeks to see if it trips? And if it doesn't, then the ozoznator for three weeks? Then the heater for three weeks?

Or just all three at once for three weeks, then start by plugging the heater back in.

Or, play parts roulette, it's only money.

[benny3]

Spa Guru states the problem I'm having - it's 29 degrees out and disconnecting the heater for 3 weeks to wait for it to trip or not isn't feasible. I don't mind calling in a spa repairman, but short of replacing the heater, blower and ozonator, it doesn't sound like there's a definitive way to determine what the problem is for something that doesn't consistently create that problem.

Is there any way to determine if the GFCI is bad? Any sort of tester?

[Spa_Guru]

As long as your spa is left powered up it won't freeze, heater or no heater.

[Spa Board Doctor]

The GFCI has a built-in test feature . Press the "test" button. Does the GFCI test off? If so then that function is working. If not the GFCI is bad or the wiring is incorrect. Below is a diagram to verify that the GFCI wiring is correct. One common mistake is to have the load neutral connected to the buss bar with the line neutral and curled neutral wire from the back of the GFCI. The load neutral must be connected to the "load neutral" position on the breaker i.e. not touching the line neutral or curled neutral. Another mistake is to share the ground wire with the line neutral or curled neutral. The buss bar used to share the line neutral and curled neutral must also be isolated from grounding to the metal GFCI enclosure.

As stated in my post above, check for tightness on all the screws that hold down wires in the GFCI. When time is involved between trips, it is often due to a heat build-up in the breaker from loose terminal screws.

BB

[benny3]

Hi all

Well, I took apart the indoor circuit panel and the screws to the GFCI for the spa are all tight. Everything looks fine - no obvious loose wires, etc. Also, when I hit the "test" button on the GFCI, it trips fine. The GFCI that I have for this is a GE and the part/model number is: GE THQL2150GFCI 2P 50 AMP HOT TUB GFCI BREAKER THQL2150GFP.

Just as a side thought here, all of these GFCI tripping issues started to happen about a month or so after I had the 2 speed pump/motor replaced by a Sundance qualified technician. He told me he replaced it with an original Sundance part so it was exactly the same as the one removed. Could this have any impact on the GFCI? I guess if the GFCI is working as the test button seems to be showing, then the next way to go is to call the technician and have him start replacing parts. I had hoped to make a more informed decision on this, but it doesn't look like there's a sure fire way of figuring this out except to replace parts and play the waiting game to see what happens.

I guess my next concern or question would be this: if the GFCI isn't bad, and the spa heater, blower and ozonator are all disconnected/replaced, and the spa's indoor circuit breaker is still randomly is tripping, what's next?

Thanks everyone.

[Spa Board Doctor]

I would next check for tightness at the terminals in the disconnect box on your brick (blade pull-out) and finally at the input terminal block in the spa controller. If everything is tight then unplug the ozonator and see if the trip goes away. Another common problem with these spas is that the heater relays will develop a cold solder joint which occasionally arcs upon engagement causing a GFCI trip. You may be able to see some discoloration (dark spots) on the PC board near the relays which are located bottom right on the board.

BB

[n1oty]

I already told you that isolating each load and ground fault testing with a megohmmeter should be your next step. If you have a load that shows a high impedance path between a current carrying conductor and ground, that's the part to concentrate on. For instance, let's pretend that you ground fault test all of the loads (motors, heater, ozone, blower, etc.) and you discover that the circ pump has a 6 megohm fault to ground, that is most likely your intermittent problem. A 6 megohm fault to ground is not sufficient to allow 5 mA of current to flow to ground, but it may have occasions when the fault path is even lower. It is during those times that you get a fault of sufficient magnitude that 5 mA flows to ground. It is imperative that these tests be performed with a megger that is rated to at least 20 megohms. I personally use a Fluke brand megger that is guaranteed to go at least 40 megohms. It is also possible to use a clamp on milliampmeter on the ground of the suspect load, but that is impractical on most single phase ground fault scenarios. The megger is more practical because it is used without energizing the circuit.

Here is an example of a clamp on current leakage tester (least preferred by me):

http://www.zorotools.com/g/00030106/k-G2812424?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&kw={keyword}&gclid=CLLQ2ui5hLYCFYje4AodHw8A1w

Here is an example of a multimeter with a 50 megohm function (Preferred method):

http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/digital-multimeters/fluke-170.htm?PID=56027

Scroll down to "baselines" in this article and read the first paragraph. I know they are troubleshooting alarm panels and not tubs, but ground faulting testing is performed the same way regardless of the equipment:

http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/community/fluke-news-plus/ArticleCategories/Electrical/AlarmCircuits.htm

If you want to do something other than haphazard guessing, this is the method for doing so.

John

[Spa_Guru]

You want him to buy a $300 meter to diagnose the problem?

First of all, do you have a blower? The spa will operate without it. Same goes for the Ozonator.

Your connections are tight, and your GFI shows every form of functioning properly.

As I stated,

"To give you probability factors, in 29 years of doing this, I have seen 3 bad GFI breakers and thousands of corroded elements."

You can, without risk to your spa, disconnect the element and run it, even in sub-zero weather, your only freezing risk comes from shutting off the power entirely, and in the case of 29F weather, leaving it off for days. Motors operate at about 180F and create more than enough heat to prevent freeze damage.

That is how you find the problem for FREE.

Or you can buy a $300 meter, an Ozonator, a element, and a blower in the process of guessing.

If I was driving 100 miles to come service your spa, I'd bring a heater element, my tool box, and my invoice book.

[n1oty]

I did not say that he should buy the meter. Frankly, he probably does not know how to use it. Refer to my first post where I suggest he find a tech who has the meter and knows how to use it. My second post refers to his subsequent post and was designed to prove that there are proper meters and proper methods for tracking intermittent problems, other than simply plugging and unplugging components. The proper use of the megger in this instance may even prove that the problem is not in the tub.

John

[benny3]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. 5 days ago, I replaced the indoor circuit breaker GFCI as this seemed to be the easiest and least expensive part to rule out and would be something the spa repairman wouldn't touch to replace anyway.

So far, no trips, but remember, these trips happen only once every few weeks, so I'm not ready to conclude anything yet. But I think I have another piece to add to the riddle of what might be wrong by adding this new symptom I noticed: Tonight I was out in the spa and I bumped up the spa temperature setting on the cabinet control panel to "force" the heater to come on (the spa temp was 97, so I raised the setting to 99 to get the heater to turn on). Right after I did that, for about 1/2 a second, the display and lights on the cabinet control panel blinked off. I thought right away that the indoor GFCI breaker tripped, but within a second, the display panel was lit again and the spa heater light came on and the two-speed circulation pump started up and I could feel heated water circulating.

Although I've never actually been in the spa when the breaker has tripped, I have witnessed the control panel lights blinking on and off on several occasions when I've manually inputted something on the panel (either turning on one or two of the pumps or when I've raised the temperature setting to get the heater running at the same time the 2-speed pump is running. I really never gave it much thought when it happened before, but now I'm wondering if this might be a clue as to what's causing the GFCI breaker trips.

Does this control panel behavior help in diagnosing the random GFCI tripping issue I'm having (assuming the GFCI that I just replaced isn't the culprit and something is actually breaking in the spa, such as the heater, ozonator, blower, etc)? I know when the next trip happens on the GFCI, I'll need to start unplugging pieces as suggested in this string of posts, but maybe this extra symptom can help eliminate or narrow down the bigger issue.

Any ideas?

Thanks again everyone.

[HiLimit]

Spa Tech is right, check the panel wiring of the GFI, I've seen DIY wiring with neutrals incorrectly connected as he's shown.

Also, I agree with Hot Tub Afficionado, with three weeks between intermittant trips, I wouldn't be swapping parts to see what's up. A Megger (megohmmeter) is a must in this case. A tech with good electronics understanding will have one. Disconnect the heater leads, and hit the heater with the meter. Then I would disconnect the line terminals only, from the GFI and the SpaPack, and hit them with the megger to see if you have a condensation-cause leak in the conduit.

I have a portable gfi in a small service box with test leads to isolate other components. But I'll bet if the GFI is properly neutralled, it's the heater or conduit wiring.

[MaRiSpaTech]

I have encountered problems like this before and it ended up being the blower. There was no water in it, just worn out brushes in the motor. The worn brushes would sometimes cause the motor to "sputter". This would create electrical noise/EMI which would trip the GFI. It may run ok for a few moments before starting to act up. So each time the spa started a filter/purge cycle, it was a roll of the dice if the GFI would trip. If the spa has a blower, turn it on and listen for intermittent sputtering. Let it run for a while and see if the GFI trips. I discovered this problem after ruling out all other current leakage sources with my trusty Fluke meter.

Also, I have found that the new Lang pumps have some leakage current to ground due to a large amount of capacitance between the case and power terminals (must be due to motor design). This can cause more sensitive GFI breakers to trip after changing the circ pump.

[PreservedSwine]

I have encountered problems like this as well. And it's turned out out be virtually anything. It's been the control head, it's been the heater, it's been the air blower, it's been the ozonater, it's been a concealed overheated wire, it's been a wire not stripped from the factory going into the main terminal block, it's been a bad breaker, it's been moisture, it's been insects, it's been the light housing, it's been EMI...etc You get the idea....

The fact is, without the correct diagnosing equipment, you're lost. If you don't own a megger, at least have a decent meter, and know how to *SAFELY* test for milli-amp leakage. While the GFCI trips at 5 milli-amps, anything over 0.5ma should be replaced.