Sensitivity

[Jankjo]

I have a hot tub that I am using the 3 step bromine method with mps. On the weekends I shock with chlorine. I use the tub at 101F. I have had the tub since the end of August. I have recently started to get a rash when I use the tub. Small dots that itch for four days and then go away. They come back when I use the tub again. no one else using the tub is having any trouble.

I am wondering what folks best guess is as to the problem.

Could it be bacteria, and I am the only one sensitive to it?

Is it possible that I have developed a sensitivity to something? If so, what might that be?

hot water?

mps?

bromine?

I hate to have spent so much money on this tub and not be able to use it after only a few months.

Any suggestions are welcome.

[Dr. Spa]

How long after you use the hot tub does the "rash" appear?

[Jankjo]

It isn't right away. Definitely by the next day.

[Dr. Spa]

The basic rule of thumb is, less than 24 hours a chemical sensitivity, more than 24 hours a bacterial infection.

Yes, multiple people can use a spa and only one person contract an infection.

[Jankjo]

Thanks Dr. Spa,

Should I then try the hot tub again, and check to see when I actually notice the rash, or is it dangerous to use? I guess the safest thing to do is to disinfect and then drain the tub and start over. But we've got several feet of snow here, and it is pretty darn cold outside. Can bacteria start even if we are maintaining the tub with proper bromine levels?

[egclassic]

I hope you figure out what it is that's affecting you. I have been having the same issues since we got our new tub, and I am also the only one affected. I never had a problem with our other tub, with the exception of once I did get follicollitis.

My rashes seem to be getting fewer and less intense, so I don't know if I am developing a tolerence to whatever it is, or if that is even possible.

It really is disappointing when you can't enjoy your tub.

[Jankjo]

He Eg classic. I 'm glad your rashes are getting less intense. Mine are getting worse. No problems for the first 4 months and then I started getting the rashes.

We had a warm day last week, so I did the disinfecting procedure and refilled the tub.

I balanced the water.

AND

I got another rash.

So I think it is a sensitivity rather than a bacteria.

My tub has a bromine bank. I have a floater with MPS activated tabs. I add mps after I soak as an oxidizer. On the weekends I shock with bleach. From what I have read, it seems like MPS is the most likely candidate for causing the rash.

Do others with more experience have other ideas for me?

If MPS is indeed the first thing I target, I was thinking that I could change my floater to have brominating tabs that are activated by chlorine instead of MPS, and add bleach instead of mps after I soak. My questions are

1) Does this make sense?

2) Are there any recommended brands of brominating tabs that use chlorine instead of MPS?

3) Do I need to drain the tub again, or will the mps get all used up?

Thanks again for all of the help

[chem geek]

Yes, it makes sense. You can use bleach instead of MPS for shocking and activating bromide to bromine.

Brominating tabs don't normally contain MPS. Tabs are usually a bromine and chlorine combination attached to DMH.

You do not need to drain the tub. The MPS will get used up oxidizing bather waste.

[K.Cool]

I placed a very similar post awhile back.We had our tub for about seven months and ran it with 3 step bromine with no problems. All of a sudden my husband started getting a rash. I am immaculate when it comes to water chemistry, so iI was suprised that he was getting these symptoms. We decontaminated just in case, but the rashes continued. We then drained, purged, and refilled, but still his rashes continued.

I decided to ditch the bromine and started fresh with diclor then bleach. He has not had any skin problems whatsoever since the change.

[Jankjo]

Thank you Chem Geek.

I'll get some brominating Tabs ASAP

KCool, was your bromine tub oxidized by MPS or Bleach?

I think I am going to try to keep the bromine tub. I really don't want to check the tub daily if I don't have to.

[K.Cool]

KCool, was your bromine tub oxidized by MPS or Bleach?

We tried MPS once or twice, but mostly bleach. We had issues even after draining, refilling, and using only bleach as an oxidizer.

[egclassic]

I, too, am thinking about switching back to chlorine. I still get some irritation after using the tub. A hot tub should be relaxing, I am tired of wondering if I will get a rash after using it everytime. Problem is, my rashes actually started when I was using chlorine, so I switched to bromine in the hopes it would help. Yes I decontaminated the tub twice. As stated before, my rashes seem less severe, but still uncomfortable. One the weather warms, I am going to decomtaminate again and re-try chlorine.

[Jankjo]

Hi egclassic, It is very discouraging to hear that you were having rashes with Chlorine, have decontaminated twice and are still having rashes. UGH.

The MPS wasn't the problem for me. Still having rashes with the bromine tub using chlorine to shock instead of MPS.

We had some warm weather yesterday, so I drained the tub, and I am trying the Nature 2 method. I've added the dichlor, and the MPS test strips should arrive in the mail tomorrow. Keeping my fingers crossed, but I'm worried that I have a very expensive big box on my deck that I won't be able to use.

[salachic]

This original post could have been written by me. We got our tub in Nov. It took us a bit to figure out the chemistry but now I think our numbers are good. About a month ago I started getting a rash when I used the tub. It would come on right away after use, and would go away after a day or 2 if I didn't use it. I was the only one that got it. Mine have gotten worse if I continue to use the tub, but still go away slowly without use. I couldn't understand why I was getting the rash.... if it was bromine sensitivity, wouldn't that have started right away?? Then I thought maybe it was dry skin and maybe the chemicals were drying my skin out and it was getting more dry each time?? Then my son started getting a few spots, now the husband too.

We bought bacteria test strips from Amazon. It showed positive. I had a hard time believing it since our bromine levels have always been good. And I still don't understand how the bacteria would have formed (suddenly?) if all chem test levels are good. Very confused. But in the meantime we have stopped using the tub. I miss it terribly. We live in the northeast and it is not warm enough to do a decontamination/refill yet.

For all those confused, you might want to test for bacteria just to rule it out before you try switching chemicals etc.

[Dr. Spa]

Bacteria test strips have to be "interpreted". They will ALWAY give some positive reading. Just opening the package will expose them to bacteria in the air, and give a slight positive reading.

[salachic]

Thanks, good info to have. We got the Water Safe strips http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000NY51JI/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

They seem to work like a pregnancy test strip..... 1 line if it's negative. 2 lines if it's positive. Since a 2nd line showed up, we went with positive. We also tested our tap water and water from a bottle of Dasani just to compare "lines". They only had 1 line. I thought the line/no line thing was easier to interpret than the pool chem color test stips (yup! got the Tayler kit instead...)

Is there a more sure way of knowing if the tub has bacteria? Why might my water give me a rash now, but not 2 mos ago?

[chem geek]

salachic,

Do you use the tub every day or two? How do you know that the bromine is always there and not getting to zero in between soaks? In an earlier post you mentioned the spa has an ozonator in which case if it were working then it should maintain a bromine level if you started out adding sodium bromide to create a bromide bank.

Take a look at the table in http://richardfalk.home.comcast.net/~richardfalk/pool/rashes.htm'>this post to see if your symptoms are consistent with a chemical reaction or a bacterial infection. If it's a bacterial infection, you could try and decontaminate your spa. Maybe it had some serious biofilms to start with that bromine (nor chlorine) wouldn't have been able to get rid of and if you leaned back against the spa surfaces that had them then that would be a problem. If the disinfectant level did get too low for even half a day it can be serious. Bacteria only take 15-60 minutes to double in population so one bacteria can turn into over 4 billion in 8 hours under ideal conditions.

[salachic]

Hi Chem Geek. I stopped using the tub last week, but up until then we had used the tub daily. We also did a water test daily. The bromine has been kept in the 4-6 level. After a shock it might have shot up to almost 10 on occasion.... I think the lowest it ever got was down to 2 (but our Taylor instructions said that 2-4 was typical for residential tubs, so we did not worry). Was a 2 too low? Yes, the ozonator is working and yes we did the bromide bank on the 1st fill and have a floater.

I read the article you linked. My symptoms come on right away..... I shower after getting out of the tub and I can already see my legs red and bumpy. I have also had some on my back and trunk. At first I was the only one, but then the hubby thought he had a few spots on his back and my son had a few spots on his arm. My arms have not been rashy, but I did notice them pinkish, as if I had been in the sun.... Since we did not know the difference between chemical rash and bacterial rash..... (was going to go to a dermatologist, but it clears up too fast and would not have had it by the time I got to the appt) we bought the bacteria test strips.

I'm just very confused because none of the answers seem to add up, so I don't know what to do next. (here's what I keep asking myself):

-> if I had biofilm/bacteria in it all along that the bromine would not take care of, wouldn't I have gotten a rash 2 mos ago?

-> if the rash is chemical related, is the bacteria strip test unreliable?

-> yes it is sometimes foamy, but I accounted it to visitor's swimsuits....

->we bought a digital meter to measure dissolved solids... will need to change water soon, do I stick with bromine??? something else??? (we do plan to perform a decontamination on the drain/fill just to be safe....

Thanks for all your advise and information. Much appreciated.

[chem geek]

If it's bacteria, the symptoms would not come right away. Infections simply don't come on that fast. Chemical sensitivity reactions, on the other hand, come on fairly quickly. It's too bad a dermatologist wasn't able to look at it (but a good thing that it goes away so quickly). Obviously, I can't diagnose what you had.

If there were biofilms initially, then bacteria can still grow in them and spread in spite of the bromine. The bromine would attack the exterior only because that's what biofilms do -- they cause chlorine and bromine to get mired in the outer layers (reacting with chemicals in the outer layers) preventing them from penetrating more deeply.

Another thing you could do is to add some brominating concentrate to a bath and see if you get a reaction. Figure the bathtub is around 40 gallons so you'd add about 1/4 ounce (about 1-1/2 teaspoons) of sodium bromide and about 1/4 teaspoon of brominating concentrate or about 1 teaspoon of 6% bleach.

As for the bacteria test kit, maybe it is interfered with by bromine or other chemicals in the spa. Just for the heck of it, for the bathtub test I just described see if the bromine causes the bacterial test to falsely report positive before you get into the tub (of course, the tub might have some bacterial films as well so you could test before and after you add the bromine chemicals).

[Jankjo]

I have changed to using Nature 2 with MPS and I add some dichor to shock on weekends. Sometimes I add some during the week because I am just not comfortable with the new system yet. The good news is that I have been using the tub for a week now and my rash is gone. Looks like I had some kind of sensitivity to the bromine.

[john44111]

Hi egclassic, It is very discouraging to hear that you were having rashes with Chlorine, have decontaminated twice and are still having rashes. UGH.

The MPS wasn't the problem for me. Still having rashes with the bromine tub using chlorine to shock instead of MPS.

We had some warm weather yesterday, so I drained the tub, and I am trying the Nature 2 method. I've added the dichlor, and the MPS test strips should arrive in the mail tomorrow. Keeping my fingers crossed, but I'm worried that I have a very expensive big box on my deck that I won't be able to use.

Interesting.. I am using the Nature2 system and I have been up since 4 am itching.

if we were to use this chart as indicated in this thread

I am going to call my problem (and probably yours) a chemical sensitivity. Now with a week of testing when I get bumps

I am thinking chemical sensitivity

My thread is here.. I guess I didnt see all these "help I am itching" threads until now.

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=44325

I was about to switch to a pure bromine solution since previous to us owning a hot tub I had been in Bromine tubs with no side effects. Of course we got our tub in November of last year and my "problem" started about a week ago.

Ive been in the tub every day at least once since November. Water has been drained 3 times so far. I am reasonably sure the chemistry of the water has been dialed in the whole time too.

I am at a loss but it is good to see others here with what seems to be the SAME problem.

I am a little concerned because my non chlorine shock ISNT MPS.. so.. I am not sure what that means at this point.

[chem geek]

John,

Your non-chlorine shock seems to be potassium persulfate aka potassium peroxydisulfate (in spite of their calling it potassium peroxymetasulfite) which is also present in small quantities in MPS product and is the most irritating component of that product so it's no wonder you have problems with Nature's Way brand of shock. Now if you use this shock product in the presence of silver ions, then they break it down into presumably less irritating chemicals though are potentially powerful oxidizers. Without any silver ions, however, the product will likely be very irritating.

[john44111]

THanks CG.. we are switching to Chlorine and Bleach.

just trying to figure out right now if we need to drain or it will naturally disappear in a day or so.

Here go.

[john44111]

ok CG follow up question.. I am going to go to Dichlor/bleach. I have all the supplies..

can I remove the N2 stick now and follow the instructions you have here

or should I drain it completely and then start again fresh.

if the irritant is PPMS (AKA MPS AKA Non chlorine shock) will it completely dissappate?

or will I have to change the water to get the N2 our and the MPS?

just wondering.

[chem geek]

After you posted a picture of what you were using in another thread, it said "Potassium Peroxymonosulfate", NOT peroxymetasulfite or peroxypersulfate as you had indicated before. Peroxymonosulfate is a synonym for Monopersulfate so IS THE SAME AS MPS.That says "Potassium Peroxymonosulfate", NOT peroxymetasulfite or peroxypersulfate as you had indicated before. Peroxymonosulfate is a synonym for Monopersulfate so IS THE SAME AS MPS.

You shouldn't have to drain. If you go with Dichlor-then-bleach, then you don't need Nature2, but it won't hurt to have it if you want to use up what you've got. The MPS that is leftover in the water will get used up with a day or two of bather load, possibly sooner.

It's somewhat unusual to have Nature2 (silver ions) with MPS be irritating, but not unheard of. MPS alone, yes, but with silver ions it's not usually as irritating, but perhaps you are indeed sensitive to MPS itself and not just the minor components of that product.