Veronica Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Can everyone please take a look at DRSPAS proposed BBB stats in the "6500"forum and explain to me how he came up with these numbers in good faith? My search indicates totally different results and I'm beginning to think this guy does not belong here if his credibilty is so far from trustworthy???? He rates: ARTIC MASTER SPA JACUZZI COLEMAN DYNASTY etc...as BBB stats...that I cannot confirm.....this is some pretty serious misrepresenting of some pretty serious brand names, please help me understand where this JOKER is getting his numbers? THIS IS DRSPAS POSTING TAKEN FROM ANOTHER TOPIC.....FALSE!!!??? "My intentions here have never been to "defend" anyone, but to simply give some balance. I dount there is a company in existance that doesn't have some kind of complaint against them. Take any company name and search for it followed by the word "complain" and you'll probably find something. As for the BBB, while I do think they help somewhat, please don't be confused by the "non-profit" status. They are NOT a government organization and a LOT of people derive their income working for them. By the way, who monitors the BBB? Since the BBB has been brought up, lets lok at some other major spa companies. Arctic Spas - 10 complaints files in the last 36 months Hot Springs - 19 complaints files in the last 36 months Coleman Spas - 4 complaints files in the last 36 months Master Spas - 10 complaints files in the last 36 months Jacuzzi Spas - 28 complaints files in the last 36 months Dynasty Spas - 9 complaints files in the last 36 months" IF YOU LOOK ON BBB.ORG......I THINK THIS GUY JUST PROVED TO BE A BIG LIAR ABOUT MAJOR BRANDS.....WOW, LOOK OUT FOR HIM! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Can everyone please take a look at DRSPAS proposed BBB stats in the "6500"forum and explain to me how he came up with these numbers in good faith? My search indicates totally different results and I'm beginning to think this guy does not belong here if his credibilty is so far from trustworthy???? He rates: ARTIC MASTER SPA JACUZZI COLEMAN DYNASTY etc...as BBB stats...that I cannot confirm.....this is some pretty serious misrepresenting of some pretty serious brand names, please help me understand where this JOKER is getting his numbers? I agree with veronica here. Although, the only spa mentioned above that i hear of from a time to time basis is Master. Nice looking unit a neighbor has, so I wouldn't call him a friend, but in any case the only problem he has had is ....again where he bought the unit from. No in-house service tech to fix what they sell. He has a helluva time getting his spa looked at. The actual unit itself and company seems decent. Though, if they have only been around a few years it would be shaky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veronica Posted October 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 I agree with veronica here. Although, the only spa mentioned above that i hear of from a time to time basis is Master. Nice looking unit a neighbor has, so I wouldn't call him a friend, but in any case the only problem he has had is ....again where he bought the unit from. No in-house service tech to fix what they sell. He has a helluva time getting his spa looked at. The actual unit itself and company seems decent. Though, if they have only been around a few years it would be shaky. Thanks for getting back to us on this one Conan! I think both anecdotal input about people's REAL LIFE experiences with their spas here, and ACCURATE STATS from an agency like the Better Business Bureau whose mission statement includes: "The BBB's value to the business community is based on our neutrality. The purpose of the BBB system is not to act as an advocate for businesses or consumers, but to act as a mutually trusted intermediary to resolve disputes, to facilitate communication, and to provide information on ethical business practices. Businesses have supported the BBB for over 80 years because an ethical marketplace is in everyone's best interest." I wonder how desperate a business rep like DRSPA has to be to come on a forum like this and start posting false "stats" about the top major brands AND suggesting they came from the BBB when the BBB's own web site doesn't match what he has posted at all....what motivates a person like this? I guess I don't know enough about this industry to understand why a person would open themselves up to this kind of serious liability and attack to their own integrity on a public forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaMan Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Thanks for getting back to us on this one Conan! I think both anecdotal input about people's REAL LIFE experiences with their spas here, and ACCURATE STATS from an agency like the Better Business Bureau whose mission statement includes: "The BBB's value to the business community is based on our neutrality. The purpose of the BBB system is not to act as an advocate for businesses or consumers, but to act as a mutually trusted intermediary to resolve disputes, to facilitate communication, and to provide information on ethical business practices. Businesses have supported the BBB for over 80 years because an ethical marketplace is in everyone's best interest." I wonder how desperate a business rep like DRSPA has to be to come on a forum like this and start posting false "stats" about the top major brands AND suggesting they came from the BBB when the BBB's own web site doesn't match what he has posted at all....what motivates a person like this? I guess I don't know enough about this industry to understand why a person would open themselves up to this kind of serious liability and attack to their own integrity on a public forum? Veronica , Dr Spa has been doing this for a long time so for you to be new here and to the world of spas, I am so insulted that you would come on here and question the mans integrity, I know Dr Spa and he is and has never been desperate. I am now questioning your motives of being on here you come on here wining about your spa and slamming the manufacturer I am starting to understand who is at fault for your unhappiness of the product!! Please refrain from desparaging the professionals here unless you know what it is your talking about! Possibly you may consider why you are here? Evaluate it and maybe move on, but your negative remarks regarding Dr Spa are not warranted or wanted here! With out even researching them I am certain his stats are accurate!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veronica Posted October 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Veronica , Dr Spa has been doing this for a long time so for you to be new here and to the world of spas, I am so insulted that you would come on here and question the mans integrity, I know Dr Spa and he is and has never been desperate. I am now questioning your motives of being on here you come on here wining about your spa and slamming the manufacturer I am starting to understand who is at fault for your unhappiness of the product!! Please refrain from desparaging the professionals here unless you know what it is your talking about! Possibly you may consider why you are here? Evaluate it and maybe move on, but your negative remarks regarding Dr Spa are not warranted or wanted here! With out even researching them I am certain his stats are accurate!!!! Spa Man, I do not want to offend you in any way. I have found your comments on this forum to be totally accurate and helpful. I have even directed people who have contacted me personally to YOU for advice because I admittedly don't know the first thing about spas. All I am asking is for an explination about the inaccuracy of his comments attacking the integrity of major brands. I am buying my second spa within the next couple of weeks and those stats that he posted would or should be a MAJOR concern for new consumers. I am here for 2 reasons. 1.) to get helpful information and 2) to warn NEW spa consumers like myself from the perils of making uneducated decisions, like the one I made, and thus suffering from the same mistakes. If you go to the BBB site, you will confirm DRSPA statements re: major brands to be innacurate (that his original posting provided no source for). BUT, DRSPA was good enough to reference the SECONDARY site where he got the stats: that I will ALSO SAY is a VERY HELPFUL AND INFORMATIVE source regarding the personal experience of wet tests with what would appear are some inaccurate facts concerning BBB stats. I QUOTE DRSPA HERE: Independent Wet Test Report and Spa Review from "another" message board; http://www.members.cox.net/duffman471/Spa_...ng_Analysis.htm I didn't bother to varify the "facts" as the poster/author appears to have a lot of credibility. If you like, I'd be more than happy tyo ask him for the source of his facts. As a side note, ya might like this; http://www.naas.org/dirty.htm or not I find these sources to be equally as helpful as other secondary and personal sources for spa consumer educatiion. The posting here, simply asks for anyone to help clarify the stats issue. If you are not willing to at least look at the primary source (i.e. the actual BBB.org site) to help us all explain the difference than I won't take any offense, but what if the negative and innaccurate stats he posted dealt with spas that should enjoy a better reputation for their service and integrity? That's not too fair I think. I think every newbie consumer here would benefit from questioning peoples motives but I, unlike others will only say I am a total straight shooter. I have nothing to hide, I publically post my identity and contact information and nothing to gain but the two objectives I've listed above. That's it. Won't you at least check the primary source BBB.org and help us all understand where the disparity lies in the two sets of numbers? Can everyone please take a look at DRSPAS proposed BBB stats in the "6500"forum and explain to me how he came up with these numbers in good faith? My search indicates totally different results and I'm beginning to think this guy does not belong here if his credibilty is so far from trustworthy???? He rates: ARTIC MASTER SPA JACUZZI COLEMAN DYNASTY etc...as BBB stats...that I cannot confirm.....this is some pretty serious misrepresenting of some pretty serious brand names, please help me understand where this JOKER is getting his numbers? THIS IS DRSPAS POSTING TAKEN FROM ANOTHER TOPIC.....FALSE!!!??? "My intentions here have never been to "defend" anyone, but to simply give some balance. I dount there is a company in existance that doesn't have some kind of complaint against them. Take any company name and search for it followed by the word "complain" and you'll probably find something. As for the BBB, while I do think they help somewhat, please don't be confused by the "non-profit" status. They are NOT a government organization and a LOT of people derive their income working for them. By the way, who monitors the BBB? Since the BBB has been brought up, lets lok at some other major spa companies. Arctic Spas - 10 complaints files in the last 36 months Hot Springs - 19 complaints files in the last 36 months Coleman Spas - 4 complaints files in the last 36 months Master Spas - 10 complaints files in the last 36 months Jacuzzi Spas - 28 complaints files in the last 36 months Dynasty Spas - 9 complaints files in the last 36 months" IF YOU LOOK ON BBB.ORG......I THINK THIS GUY JUST PROVED TO BE A BIG LIAR ABOUT MAJOR BRANDS.....WOW, LOOK OUT FOR HIM! Here's what I saw on the BBB site to the best of my brief review: Be sure to look at the RESULTS of the BBB complaints filed! According to the BBB.org web site:] Given at least, a more in depth, clearer reading of the site stats: SINCE of MAY OF 2003 - (RE: 36 month history?) ARTIC (Spas, Pools & Stoves of Portland Oregon) - 1 complaint = resolved HOT SPRINGS - ALL LISTINGS (approximately 2-5 complaints in 36 months ALL RESOLVED COLEMAN SPAS (MAAX) - 1 complaint, in good standing RESOLVED MASTER SPAS - of all listings of potential sub cos. between 2 - 7 complaints all resolved or addressed and in good standing. JACUZZI - 32-to 33 complaints total of all sales (that could include tubs in in the bathroom????) - ALL RESOLVED & in GOOD STANDING WITH THE BBB! DYNASTY - 10 complaints - RESOLVED, CLOSED or UNPURSUABLE ------------------------------------------------------------------ COMPARED TO HYDRO SPAs - in Clearwater FL, 10 complaints, 2 UNRESOLVED, THE ONLY BBB UNSATISFACTORY RECORD LISTING out of all DRSPAS suggested service" faux pas" list!!! BUT HEY!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU SOOOO MUCH DRSPA!!! Because of you, upon closer inspection of the BBB site, I finally found what might be a solid lead on the Nexus between a CLASS ACTION SUIT filed against SUNDAZE - a Hydro Spa subsidiary??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chas Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 I can't even find the bb you mentioned. Sorry, I spent just a few minutes looking over the rhtubs web board, home page, and reviews. I will look better later as time allows. But I will say this: I have spoken with the good Doctor on many occasions, and I would also add to Spa Man's words of support for Dr. Spa and Robert's Hot Tubs. Keep in mind that they sell wooden tubs and the support equipment for same, as well as insulated covers and the various supplies needed to run a hot tub. They do not sell or rep any self contained portable spas. That is an important distinction - keep in mind that many folks who post so-called reviews or even so-called 'spa rating' pages either sell the items in question, or sell advertising, or may even sell the results of the ratings themselves. Also, Robert's and Andy's insight into the spa industry is profound on many levels. By being in touch with as many spa dealers and manufacturers as they are, they have valuable information that can help us all. One thing I have heard him say over and over is, "there are no credible comparison tests of spas to be found on the Internet." As a spa dealer, that saddens me - obviously anyone who sells these things would love it if a consumber could click on a web page and get a 'Consumers Report' version of a 'Spa Off' or something like it, but it is not to be had. Now, if Doc is listing number of complaints filed with the online BBB, I would say that consumers have every right to check those numbers - but the local BBB and any complaints against the actual local dealer they are thinking about buying from would be far more important. Keep in mind that HotSpring outsells all other comers, by a wide margin, so if they were a slip-shod organization, they should have many more complaints. If you see a couple of bad stories about a company which only puts out a hundred spas a year, you have a reason to run away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thestallion Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 I only wish people would understand that groups like the BBB all have their own agenda and that the people who work there are not unpaid volunteers. They charge a very reasonable amount of money to become a member and they try to imidate you if you do not want to join, For those that are members it is not very difficult to have negative reports removed. Groups like consumer reports, BBB , etc all have their own quirks and while not being completely without credibility that does not make them above things that would surprise many people . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris H Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Veronica, you should be banned for questioning the Doctor. Now, if you want to remove him because he in violation of the user agreement that would be fine. You should not question his accuracy because he has much more experience with hottubs and the web boards than most. By the way, if you are wonder why he is in violation of the board guidelines it is because he operates a competing web forum, as does Mr. Arjuna, whom we all think should be banned. Sorry Doc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 ummmmmmmmm, help me out here. I'm in violation simply for having a forum that could be considered competing? HOLLY COW!. I just found the guidelines, and you're RIGHT! Odd the "owners" of this board never mentioned it to me in the numerous phone calls/emails I've had with them in the past few months, or even years. All I ever got from them was their thanks for my years of contribution on their forum(s). I have however not left "signatures, URLs or text including blatant sales messages, solicitations, advertisements, derogatory comments about members, or self-promotion of any form encouraging members to visit a particular website or store". But then I'm pretty good about with EVERY forum I frequent (notice I said "pretty". when directly asked, I usually don't have a problem telling). I have listed my web site in my personal info under "Home Page", but if the moderators would like it removed I'm happy to oblige. My signature is but an "inside" personal joke having nothing to do with the hot tubs industry (although spas are sold on eBay). By the way, if you are wonder why he is in violation of the board guidelines it is because he operates a competing web forum, as does Mr. Arjuna, whom we all think should be banned. Sorry Doc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaMan Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 ummmmmmmmm, help me out here. I'm in violation simply for having a forum that could be considered competing? HOLLY COW!. I just found the guidelines, and you're RIGHT! Odd the "owners" of this board never mentioned it to me in the numerous phone calls/emails I've had with them in the past few months, or even years. All I ever got from them was their thanks for my years of contribution on their forum(s). I have however not left "signatures, URLs or text including blatant sales messages, solicitations, advertisements, derogatory comments about members, or self-promotion of any form encouraging members to visit a particular website or store". But then I'm pretty good about with EVERY forum I frequent (notice I said "pretty". when directly asked, I usually don't have a problem telling). I have listed my web site in my personal info under "Home Page", but if the moderators would like it removed I'm happy to oblige. My signature is but an "inside" personal joke having nothing to do with the hot tubs industry (although spas are sold on eBay). DOC, Many of us on this forum are guilty and would have to be banned as many of us have our own site however I think the positive feedback should could count for something. I know you Chas, Chris and myself as well as many others put in countless hours to help out and research and make this industry shine into something we can all be proud of so if they ban one they will have to ban us all. I believe the amount of advertising to be very minimal and non flagrant, there a special someone who should be banned from here but you are not him Doc. Just my take on the whole thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 And this from someone who ALSO is in violation of the user aggreement.......... ???? DOC, Many of us on this forum are guilty and would have to be banned as many of us have our own site however I think the positive feedback should could count for something. I know you Chas, Chris and myself as well as many others put in countless hours to help out and research and make this industry shine into something we can all be proud of so if they ban one they will have to ban us all. I believe the amount of advertising to be very minimal and non flagrant, there a special someone who should be banned from here but you are not him Doc. Just my take on the whole thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris H Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Doc and SpaMan, I wasn't trying to get you guys banned. I would however like to have Jim banned due to his ability to make a board into a cancer. He already has started with his stupid rants about thermo-pane. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Doc and SpaMan, I wasn't trying to get you guys banned. I would however like to have Jim banned due to his ability to make a board into a cancer. He already has started with his stupid rants about thermo-pane. Chris I think a group hug is called for!! ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((group))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Can I wait till Tammy gets here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Can I wait till Tammy gets here? The restraining order is still in place! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 IS NOT! The law firm I use, Dewey Screwem & Howe, assured my they cleared that little "misunderstanding". The restraining order is still in place! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted October 11, 2005 Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 I think it's important for people new to the industry and this forum (like Veronica-recently burned) to be wary and check out everything stated by everybody. I can see why she would be "up in arms" if there is a discrepancy found in some information provided by ANY of us regulars. I think she brought up a good point that one web sight can say one thing and then another to say something else.... and all of these differences to be found in the websights meant to protect consumers from fraud and missrepresentation! BBB, and others are a guideline for sure but I couldn't find the information about "how much a company sells in a year" to make those findings a valid percentage to truely compare one company against another in regards to complaints. It just showed number of complaints/ resolved or unresolved. It didn't let me know if the unresolved ones were still working it out or not. I suppose a spa representative could simply direct someone to a "consumer protection site" that promoted the best results for their own spa. It is so hard for someone in this day and age to know what is true or not true. I guess for me, I have to see someone's face and look into their eyes to get a better idea of what motivates the words to come out of their mouths and even then sometimes it is hard. I don't think Veronica Or Dr. Spa should be banned. They are both trying to do their best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veronica Posted October 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 I can't even find the bb you mentioned. Sorry, I spent just a few minutes looking over the rhtubs web board, home page, and reviews. I will look better later as time allows. But I will say this: I have spoken with the good Doctor on many occasions, and I would also add to Spa Man's words of support for Dr. Spa and Robert's Hot Tubs. Keep in mind that they sell wooden tubs and the support equipment for same, as well as insulated covers and the various supplies needed to run a hot tub. They do not sell or rep any self contained portable spas. That is an important distinction - keep in mind that many folks who post so-called reviews or even so-called 'spa rating' pages either sell the items in question, or sell advertising, or may even sell the results of the ratings themselves. Also, Robert's and Andy's insight into the spa industry is profound on many levels. By being in touch with as many spa dealers and manufacturers as they are, they have valuable information that can help us all. One thing I have heard him say over and over is, "there are no credible comparison tests of spas to be found on the Internet." As a spa dealer, that saddens me - obviously anyone who sells these things would love it if a consumber could click on a web page and get a 'Consumers Report' version of a 'Spa Off' or something like it, but it is not to be had. Now, if Doc is listing number of complaints filed with the online BBB, I would say that consumers have every right to check those numbers - but the local BBB and any complaints against the actual local dealer they are thinking about buying from would be far more important. Keep in mind that HotSpring outsells all other comers, by a wide margin, so if they were a slip-shod organization, they should have many more complaints. If you see a couple of bad stories about a company which only puts out a hundred spas a year, you have a reason to run away. CHAS, (or anyone who cares to simply check the stats re: complaints filed against companies with the BBB for the major brands listed above, or any brand....versus what was printed on the "Wet Test site" and copied onto this forum as having come from the Better Business Bureau, can go to BBB.org and check on any company, including spa companies). Again, I do agree with my own critics, who suggest that using the BBB as an end all, be all to judging the integrity of a company would not be prudent given their own agendas, but for what it's worth the information about HOW the company addressed it's customer's complaints and WHAT the complaints were about as well as whether the issues ultimately got resolved does give information that could be useful to any consumer facing a problem. AND Having just filed my complaint with them, and exoecting nothing in return but just to warn and alert consumers, I can say from personal experience that the BBB does have to confirm the validity of the complaint. They ask for serial #, order #, my address, phone, dealer and manufacturer and they contact these parties to get their side of the story before any of these stats are posted. Out of all the companies listed as haveing a lot of complaints by DRSPA, if you look you will see NONE of them have a "NEGATIVE" rating for bad corporate response, they are all in "GOOD STANDING" while Hydro Spa, (and I'm sure some limited others) actually does have a BAD BBB RATING!!!! If I had only known that much before my purchase, it would have changed things for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veronica Posted October 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 Veronica , Dr Spa has been doing this for a long time so for you to be new here and to the world of spas, I am so insulted that you would come on here and question the mans integrity, I know Dr Spa and he is and has never been desperate. I am now questioning your motives of being on here you come on here wining about your spa and slamming the manufacturer I am starting to understand who is at fault for your unhappiness of the product!! Please refrain from desparaging the professionals here unless you know what it is your talking about! Possibly you may consider why you are here? Evaluate it and maybe move on, but your negative remarks regarding Dr Spa are not warranted or wanted here! With out even researching them I am certain his stats are accurate!!!! Wow, you guys are hard core! I think even DRSPA would be willing to, or HAS actually conceded that he did not confirm the stats against the major brands he listed as being accurate as he took them from a secondary source, he offered to contact that source to confirm the stats, will I get "banned" if I ask if that was done? It's just as easy to do so by going to the BBB.org site. DRSPA'S and others' point about the weight to give BBB stats is well taken, but anybody see mine about being able to rely on what has been printed as true??? If it's not true, than isn't this pretty misleading to consumers who come here to gather useful information before making a purchase?....and then instead of taking two minutes of your own time just to look and perhaps clarify something, you would rather NOT look, and gang up the consumer until you feel righteous enough for a group hug? What is wrong with holding dealers and people in the spa business to the notion of professional integrity? I don't get it? You're the experts....if someone is posting statistics about consumer complaints logged in and recorded by an entity that hold's themselves out as a guardian of professional integrity (i.e. the BBB), shouldn't they be accurate? ESPECIALLY, given the small size of your market? No one has bothered to just look and see that they are not accurate except Conan about Artic Spas complaints? I don't get it.....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaMan Posted October 11, 2005 Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 Wow, you guys are hard core! I think even DRSPA would be willing to, or HAS actually conceded that he did not confirm the stats against the major brands he listed as being accurate as he took them from a secondary source, he offered to contact that source to confirm the stats, will I get "banned" if I ask if that was done? It's just as easy to do so by going to the BBB.org site. DRSPA'S and others' point about the weight to give BBB stats is well taken, but anybody see mine about being able to rely on what has been printed as true??? If it's not true, than isn't this pretty misleading to consumers who come here to gather useful information before making a purchase?....and then instead of taking two minutes of your own time just to look and perhaps clarify something, you would rather NOT look, and gang up the consumer until you feel righteous enough for a group hug? What is wrong with holding dealers and people in the spa business to the notion of professional integrity? I don't get it? You're the experts....if someone is posting statistics about consumer complaints logged in and recorded by an entity that hold's themselves out as a guardian of professional integrity (i.e. the BBB), shouldn't they be accurate? ESPECIALLY, given the small size of your market? No one has bothered to just look and see that they are not accurate except Conan about Artic Spas complaints? I don't get it.....? Veronica, For one hon heres a hug for you ((((((huggie squeezie))))))) today I promise to check out the information, after doing so, lets get to the point as your attack on the Doc has caught us off guard and I am sure you would defend your true friends as we do Doc. His track record here is impecable, so please dont feel anyones ganging up on you, lets calmly get to the reason we are all here. How Veronica can we help you with your problem or concerns and make you a happy person again??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veronica Posted October 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 [Whew!!!....OK....I gotta admit, the hug thing felt pretty good!!!,.... Wow! feeling better (I was beginning to think this forum was a branch of the Bush Administration!)....and your are so right Spa Man, if you guys attacked Amanda, who seems to me, to have the purest heart of gold on this forum, I think I WOULD defend her 'til cyber-death' here. By the way, she makes an excellent point about looking dealers in the eyes when we make a major investment into their product (for my bank account...at least....anything over a $100 dollars would be considered rather "major"). I DO believe another big mistake I made was buying online when the price WAS too good to be true. ....Again, You have ALL been an enormous help in meeting my needs here! I was directed here by a local dealer, who wanted to demonstrate to me she had nothing to hide less than a week ago. I have learned TONS about the industry and the brands and how to deal with less-than-what-should-be-even-minimally-required-by-way-of-customer-service. I believe, unless and until "banned", I now intend on remaining a member of this "Spa Society" as well as others because: 1.) I haven't purchased spa #2 yet (which I pray I will own, maintain, and enjoy for a looong time to come due in part, to the assistance of this forum's information). 2.) I learn more and more about spas here every day and they are clearly something that adds such value to my personal life, that despite being a confessed "newbie", I have become QUITE passionate about them! 3.)As a person who has gravitated towards advocating for the "Under Dog" my whole life, I believe that I can add something here by way of empowering other newbie consumers and holding dealers and manufacturers to industry standards for service, integrity & accountability. With that said, in reviewing some of my aggressive language to the Doc, (not understanding he was apparently quoting someone else's apparent innacurate stats OR his "impecable" reputation as an information provider here), I now understand it was NOT appropriate and I apologize, as I was misdirecting to him, the anger I felt towards my antagonist-manufacturer (now also subsiding somewhat, due to the haul away on Sunday ). In response to another member's confirmation that his Artic Spas stats were off, DRSPA has at least, cleared some of his questionable assertions up under another topic "...6,500..." by acknowledging the stats he posted were NOT from the BBB, but from the personal "Wet Test" commentary on another site (which I also enjoyed thoroughly and found VERY helpful), and offered to check them out. (has he?) If I recall, the beginning of this "joust" correctly, the most offensive part was that Doc suggested that Hydro Spa sold over 100,000 spas over the last 36 months and only received 3 complaints to the BBB, while the industry leaders suffered from many more complaints, and then he listed his stats that did not add up, upon my quick reference check to the primary source (the BBB). I believe he actually asserted that the stats could be interpreted to suggest that Hydro Spa is great company to buy a spa from given a review of their record with the BBB.....while my ongoing research seems to suggest, not only are they absolutely NOT, but 1.) it would appear that they are connected to a class-action suit that began yesterday for some of the same type of stuff I experienced (i.e. SunDaze Spas???), 2.) that they are not easily identifiable because they manufacture for other names (i.e. Costco Elite), and 3.) that out of all major brands listed, they are the ONLY manufacturer that ACTUALLY has a NEGATIVE (meaning to me, "be careful, this company didn't even care to give US the curteously of a response!!!!") from the BBB. Given DRSPA's impeccable reputation on this forum, as a sort of industry-expert that we consumers rely on for important information, I believe he may have a heightened responsibility to clear this assertion up. I only merely suggest that, because, honestly, if I did not know any better, like "Robin" who is soliciting information about buying a spa, just like I am, .....I would have weighed his comments into my decision to buy a spa, and for example, in trusting his information as valid may very well have ran off and bought a Hydro Spa over all the other major brands IN GOOD STANDING with the BBB he listed, not understanding Hydro Spa's REAL and NEGATIVE BBB history. In short, to answer your very kind and sincere response SPAMAN, the way you guys can all help us "newbies" and give us what we all need as "newbie consumers", I would suggest, is the same thing here, we all need every where ....TRUST in the INTEGRITY of your WORD, this makes us ALL, happy, hot, soaking spa customers...!!!! Thanks for listening! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted October 11, 2005 Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 If I recall, the beginning of this "joust" correctly, the most offensive part was that Doc suggested that Hydro Spa sold over 100,000 spas over the last 36 months and only recieved 3 complaints to the BBB, while the industry leaders suffered from many more complaints, and then he listed his stats that did not add up, upon my quick reference check to the primary source (the BBB). And, it was said in response to your findings of 2 complaints on ripoffreport. 1 from 2000 and anpther from 2001 (or there abouts) Please reread that post, carefully and slowly. I did not say nor even imply a time frame of 36 months for 100,000 spas. What I DID say was either 3 or 4 YEARS (it may have been 4-1/5 or 5 even). BTW, here's links to a few of the bbb stats on the brands listed in question http://www.sandiego.bbb.org/commonreport.html?compid=100255 http://www.labbb.org/BBBWeb/Forms/Business...CompanyID=14059 http://www.data.bbb.org/scripts/cgiip.exe/...ml?zid=32000071 coleman I have no doubt of the credibility of the web site I quoted with the numbers and haven't the time nor the desire/need to track down the rest. One observation though, your findings on Arctic were simply a retail store that carries their product, not the actual manufacturer. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Just as a little FYI about the BBB. You've now filed a complaint with them. If and when you get your money back, that complaint will be considered "resolved". Long story short (very short), 20 years ago a customer sued me. I never even got to present my side of the case as when the judge got done laughing at her reason for being there, he appologized for taking up my time and asked the bailif to excort this crazy lady out of his courtroom. She went on to file a complaint on me with the BBB. I responed with a copy of the court judgment and that was that...... "RESOLVED". resolved ~ ~ resolved. "Resolved" tells very little, if anything, about what happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veronica Posted October 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 DR....I didn't take issue specifically with your Artic Spas stats, another member did under two different topics. I didn't suggest that you would confirm the stats you got from your secondary source, you did. If you simply go to the BBB.org site versus the local sites you offered, and do a company check it lists all possible matches for anything that comes close to the name you type in, in their entire NATIONAL network and then you may have to dig a little deeper as I have to verify and confirm history, no need even jump around to the local office sites because thay are networked. ....and I did not file a complaint with BBB for a refund, they actually give you an option of what you want or need. I specifically stated it was FOR THEIR INFORMATION only. I have finally been promised a refund and I'm happy to be put in their "resolved" stats now that they have removed the tub. Again, my only intention was to accurately inform new would-be consumers. You listed every major brand and stats purporting to be from the BBB, but failed to mention that out of every brand listed, they are ALL in good standing and Hydro Spa is listed as NOT in good standing. This is an irreffutable fact given at least my reading of the primary source, but hey what do I know about reading statistics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaMan Posted October 11, 2005 Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 DR....I didn't take issue specifically with your Artic Spas stats, another member did under two different topics. I didn't suggest that you would confirm the stats you got from your secondary source, you did. If you simply go to the BBB.org site versus the local sites you offered, and do a company check it lists all possible matches for anything that comes close to the name you type in, in their entire NATIONAL network and then you may have to dig a little deeper as I have to verify and confirm history, no need even jump around to the local office sites because thay are networked. ....and I did not file a complaint with BBB for a refund, they actually give you an option of what you want or need. I specifically stated it was FOR THEIR INFORMATION only. I have finally been promised a refund and I'm happy to be put in their "resolved" stats now that they have removed the tub. Again, my only intention was to accurately inform new would-be consumers. You listed every major brand and stats purporting to be from the BBB, but failed to mention that out of every brand listed, they are ALL in good standing and Hydro Spa is listed as NOT in good standing. This is an irreffutable fact given at least my reading of the primary source, but hey what do I know about reading statistics? What may I do to get the 2 of you to hug?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted October 11, 2005 Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 [Whew!!!....OK....I gotta admit, the hug thing felt pretty good!!!,.... Wow! feeling better (I was beginning to think this forum was a branch of the Bush Administration!)....and your are so right Spa Man, if you guys attacked Amanda, who seems to me, to have the purest heart of gold on this forum, I think I WOULD defend her 'til cyber-death' here. By the way, she makes an excellent point about looking dealers in the eyes when we make a major investment into their product (for my bank account...at least....anything over a $100 dollars would be considered rather "major"). I DO believe another big mistake I made was buying online when the price WAS too good to be true. Hey, thanks! That was nice to read! Glad to hear you'll be stickin around. And also glad to see your anger is beginning to settle down a bit. , With your experience in helping people stand up for themselves, you have been and will continue to be a good source to help watch out for the newbies, and to help keep the regulars in check. Welcome aboard! And welcome to the ever changing world of spas, salespeople, and technical information like you've never heard. "As the spa water turns" continues to be an interesting source of education and entertainment for many of us! When I first started posting... (and the fellows here can confirm )... I had been upset about some things also. Some things that I'd posted had "gotten attention" as well. So we have some things in common. I think the most imoportant thing to remember is that most folks are trying to do their best... but it's important to double check things that you read (any where you go) to make sure it matches up. Double check even me... I try really hard to make sure I give un-biased information and "general enough" to not attack any company or promote mine. But we are all human. We all make mistakes. NOBODY and NO COMPANY is perfect. It is how you represent yourself (by your words) that will make the difference in how you feel, how other people receive your information, and how much help can really be givin and received. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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