Jump to content

My Simple Method


cporro

Recommended Posts

I've had my spa for 4 years now. i got a lot of useful info here. now i'd like to hopefully add some of the wisdom.

here is my tub situation. it's a low use family spa. i keep it at 100 F so as not to cook my child. also you can soak longer and more comfortabley at 100. it has an ozonator.

i have tried many things over the last few years. the bleach method. using MPS. using PH stablizers like gentle spa.

my goal was to find a simple no-nonsense solution. i've come back to the basics.

1) i fill my spa every 3 months. water is cheap (for now) so just refill. you don't want to stew in some toxic cocktail.

2) add as little as possible. i want to whiddle things down to the essentials.

there was a time when i was attracted to liquid bleach. it's cheap and dispurses fast. but it's also very alkaline. i had a lot more balancing issues with it. and i suspect my cover and some other items met and early demise because of.

ok, so i fill my spa. then test ph. it's way alkaline. but if you give that a day or so it comes down. don't ask me why but where i am i take the fresh fill readings with a grain of salt.

then i use 2 things: baking soda and di-chlor. baking soda raises total alkalinity. di-chlor is acidic around 7. so there you have your balancing agents.

with just these 2 agents i find my sanitizer (di-chlor) lasts longer and my ph is more stable.

i add enough di-chlor to get to around 3 ppm after every use. i check in over the week to make sure levels do not fall to 0. although they certainly have in the past. one test i have found usefull is what i call the "film swipe". swipe the shell and see if you feel a slippery coating. if you do you are in trouble. i'm a big fan of using your senses. ditto for smelling that "chlorine smell" which indicates combined chlorine. not good.

i don't shock every week. maybe every 10 days. but i do it with di-chlor at around 10 ppm. you can test this with a test kit (not strips they aren't very accurate) or if you have a good nose it will tell you. i find MPS more hassle then it's worth. it also adds to the wonderful chem-soup. i notice a smell with MPS as well.

that's it. di-chlor and baking soda. simple, effective. if you have wild orgies and such you may need dupont on retainer but for my usage this system works fine. nice tub. no rashes. low effort.

up the road i'm looking for a better way to sanitize. chlorine is a great way to sanitize but it's also toxic. and it displaces iodine, something you need to live.

you have a child and suddenly get very concerned about poisons. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No one here promotes "the bleach method". If you use bleach without any CYA in the water, it's too strong, doesn't last as long (outgasses), is harsher on your swimsuits and skin and on the hot tub cover, and can smell more. This is why the method talked about here is the Dichlor-then-bleach method where the initial use of Dichlor builds up the CYA level first to moderate chlorine's strength. From your previous posts on the Nitro's method thread, I presume you tried Dichlor-then-bleach and not bleach-only, right?

Dichlor-only using baking soda to restore TA (pH is balanced mostly through carbon dioxide outgassing at a higher TA level) is simpler as you point out, but the water doesn't last as long. You take care of that by changing the water more frequently which is what you say you are doing. This is probably the most common method used by most people.

You aren't reading reliable sources if you are talking about chlorine being toxic. The LD50 for chlorine is actually higher than that of salt meaning it takes less common table salt to kill you from ingestion than it does chlorine. As for the chlorine displacement of iodine, give me a break. The bogus websites that talk about that are even talking about CHLORIDE displacement of IODIDE meaning even table salt does this displacement (which doesn't even deserve comment). Chlorine won't get into your system since it is so reactive. It will get reduced to chloride or combine with ammonia or nitrogenous organics. The only even partially legitimate concern is with chlorinated disinfection by-products (nitrogen trichloride, THMs, nitrosamines, etc.).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

yes, i am talking about di-chlor then bleach. i don't think it's a good system.

"The LD50 for chlorine is actually higher than that of salt meaning it takes less common table salt to kill you from ingestion than it does chlorine."

come on. use your common sense. why don't you eat 1/2 tsp chlorine (not chloride) and i'll eat 1/2 tsp of table salt and we'll see what happens. one person will get very sick. the other will just be getting almost the daily american intake of salt. whatever LD50 50 is i wouldn't trust it if that's thier rec.

both chlorine and bromine cause allergic reactions in people. that should tell you something. ever spend serious time in salt water and a pool? the pool chlorine will irritate your eyes for a long long time. salt water will sting but it does not have the long lasting effects that chlorinated water has. sodium chloride is everywhere in our bodies. chlorine is not.

just check out the wiki on chloride and chlorine.

silly rabbit. tricks are for kids. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not the chlorine in a pool that causes eye irritation. Eye irritation is caused by chloramines and other by-products. If the water is properly maintained there is NO problem.

I use Waterbear's 3 step bromine with 50ppm borates in my tub and many guests have commented on how clear, soft and "non smelly" the water is!! It really doesn't matter which method you use, Dichlor/Bleach or 3 step Bromine. The key is proper maintenance.

As for your statement that Chlorine / Bromine causes allergic reactions, you need to do a little bit more research. While it is true, it accounts for a very small percentage. The vast majority of reactions are caused by Chloramines, Bromamines and other sanitation by-products but due to ignorance, is blamed on chlorine.

Do you understand the difference between "elemental" chlorine and chlorine ions? You did challenge Chem Geek to eat a 1/2 tsp. of chlorine. That would be virtually impossible since chlorine is a GAS!!!

I think I'm going to join Dr. Spa with the Popcorn & soda or maybe a bottle of "Scotland's Finest" this one may get interesting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

yes, i am talking about di-chlor then bleach. i don't think it's a good system.

Then you did it wrong! Period!

"The LD50 for chlorine is actually higher than that of salt meaning it takes less common table salt to kill you from ingestion than it does chlorine."

The forum has a quote function, Learn to use it!

come on. use your common sense. why don't you eat 1/2 tsp chlorine (not chloride) and i'll eat 1/2 tsp of table salt and we'll see what happens. one person will get very sick. the other will just be getting almost the daily american intake of salt. whatever LD50 50 is i wouldn't trust it if that's thier rec.

(empahsis mine) Google is your friend Learn to use it! I suggest reading this.

both chlorine and bromine cause allergic reactions in people. that should tell you something. ever spend serious time in salt water and a pool? the pool chlorine will irritate your eyes for a long long time. salt water will sting but it does not have the long lasting effects that chlorinated water has. sodium chloride is everywhere in our bodies. chlorine is not.

silly rabbit. tricks are for kids. :D

Ahem, a salt pool IS a chlorne pool. I guess you need to learn a bit about how SWCGs make chlorine by the electrolysis of salt added to the water before you make statements like that which are 100% BS!

Once again, Google is your friend, use it!

Also, there is NO documented evidence of halogen allergies and, in fact, a proven treatment that dermatologists use for eczema are 'bleach baths'. at about 50 ppm FC! (1/2 cup of 6% laundry bleach in 40 gallons of water is 48 ppm FC!)

More info on bleach baths:

http://pediatrics.aa...5/e808.abstract

http://pediatrics.ab...bleach_bath.htm

http://www.webmd.com...ids-with-ezcema

As far as bromine sensitivity, most often that is from the use of MPS to oxidize the bromide and MPS is a known sensitizer and does not normally happen when chlorine is used as an oxidizer with bromine.(but I don't expect you to understand how bromine chemistry works since you don't have a basic understanding of the parts of pool/spa water chemistry that you have already "discussed". :rolleyes:

As far as checking out the wiki on chlorine and chloride...they are two completely different things that have very different chemical activity. It is obvious that you have no basic understanding of chemistry whatsoever and chances are never even took it in high school (or didn't pass it).

Silly Rabbit, As Forest Gump said, "Mama says that Stupid is as Stupid Does"

and this is good proof! :lol: :lol: :lol:

(taking off my boots now after wading though all the BS! :lol:

In a way I am reminded of a "Food Faddist" that screams about the food additive lecithin being used as an emulsifier(because food additves are bad). and then turning around and recommending taking the dietary suppliment lecithin for it's health benefits. :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A few more observations.

i keep it at 100 F so as not to cook my child. also you can soak longer and more comfortabley at 100. it has an ozonator.

Where there are no set recommendations for children and heated spas the general accepted guidelines are that infants and toddlers should not use a hot tub at all due to the risk of overheating or dehydration, older children can be allowed in for short periods of time if the temperature has been carefully checked, and recommendations for time limits for children range from 5 to 20 minutes, depending upon the age of the child and the temperature of the water

it has an ozonator.

you have a child and suddenly get very concerned about poisons. :D

Ozone is actually MUCH more toxic than chlorine, it is NOT a residual sanitizer and in fact there is supposed to be NO ozone residual in the water at all (but this is not usually the case with the way ozone is normally implemented in hot tubs. When ozone is used with chlorine in a tub that does not receive a lot of use it can actually INCREASE the amount of chlorine needed to maintain a the same chlorine residual in the water as without because ozone destroys chlorine and vice versa. Ozone does NOT allow you to run a lower FC level. Under best circumstances it might allow you to need less chlorine to maintain the SAME FC level as without ozone (high use tubs that tend to have a problem with persistent CC because of high bather load.) In tubs with poorly designed ozone systems (IMHO, almost all of them) it is very possible for toxic levels of ozone gas to be trapped under the tub cover and without some form of forced ventilation, will be inhaled by people using the tub when the cover is removed.

What you should really be concerned about are water borne illnesses such as Legionaires' Disease, Mycobacter Avium (Hut Tub Lung), Ppseudomonas (Hot Tub Folliculitis which is most common in spas run exclusively on dichlor), amoebic meningitis, and the enteric illnesses such as Shigellaosis (dysentary), E.coli infection, Nororvirus, Giardia, etc. from undersanitized water or by using 'alternative sanitizers" like copper, ozone, UV light, or enzymes that are NOT approved residual sanitizers and/or that have very slow kill times against bacteria and no action against viruses. Clear water is not always safe water and the hot waters in a tub allow pathogens to multiply very rapidly. Also consider that every person entering the tub is introducing sweat, urine, and feces no matter how clean they THINK they are and that children often do not hav the best hygiene habits and also tend to get the water in their mouths, which is a source of infection.

IF you don't believe me then try using Google! You should find a lot of info. Hopefully you have learned to use it by now.A good starting search term is 'recreational water illnesses' You can also search on any of the illnesses I listed above, which is by no means a complete list.

If you have children you need to get your priorities straightened out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cporro The best piece of advice that I, or anyone else can give you is to listen carefully to what Waterbear and others are trying to get through to you. You started by being concerned about the health of your children. The best way to do that is to seperate "Truth" from "Fiction", arm yourself with factual understanding and what you don't understand, ASK, but seek reputable advise. NOT bogus websites.

Waterbear pointed out a perfect example of this. You lowered your tub temp to 100 for your kids... The fact is, while Delta T is a factor, the bigest factor is body mass so time limiting is the only effective safety measure. I have 2 granddaughters (3 & 9) The 9yr old is allowed in the tub under a strictly enforced 10min limit. The 3 yr old is not even a discussion.

I'm pointing this out to make sure you make decisions, that affect the safety of your children, carefully and with proper understanding. I'm not going to get into discussing chemistry, I believe Waterbear has fully covered that.

One last comment: You're using Dichlor/Baking Soda (no bleach) - Isn't that a bit of chasing your tail?

As you add dichlor, you're increasing CYA, as CYA increases, chlorine effectiveness goes down, so you need to add more dichlor. Eventually the CYA will be so high that you'll need a ridiculous amount of FC to have any sort of sanitization. So for someone who is opposed to chlorine, your method seems to result in the highest chlorine requirement of all other methods! or am I missing something?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

good lord. what a sh*tstorm.

i can't respond to everything. but let me just try a few. :D

i still challenge chemgeek to ingesting some chlorine and i'll do the sodium chloride and we'll see who gets sick.

"The LD50 for chlorine is actually higher than that of salt meaning it takes less common table salt to kill you from ingestion than it does chlorine."

chlorine is poison. gas or no gas. you know what i'm getting at. i did take some chem in HS and then later in college. i was ok at it. but to be honest i've forgotton just about everything. it doen't mean i'm wrong though. :D

the halide displacement in the human body is from research by David Brownstein, MD. he really likes iodine. now... you don't have to believe him. the science on iodine and human health is all over the place from what i've read.

"One last comment: You're using Dichlor/Baking Soda (no bleach) - Isn't that a bit of chasing your tail?"

i know the argument you are putting forward. but it's not my experience. perhaps it's because the tub is so low use and i don't add tons of di-chlor. or maybe the 3 month drainings. or maybe something else. i have really never smelled combined chlor or needed to add tons of di-chlor to get decent free chlor readings.

as far as the temp goes. the big factor in kids overheating is their activity imo. i sit still in the tub. my daughter uses it like a pool and constantly moves. imagine swimming in 104 degree water. you'd overheat very very fast. but there are other reasons to keep it low imo. shouldn't bacteria grow less? lower heating bills. you can soak longer without overheating. blah blah.

ozone. yes i know. known lung irritant. what can i say... the tub came with the house. as far as i can tell there is no way to turn it off. they have a lifespan right? wonder if this is at it's end.

it seems there is an idea here that the chorine added to water is non-toxic... that combined chlor causes irritation. i'm sure it does. but chlorine is no saint. see the warning on the bleach bottle? ever get a drop of bleach in your eye? ok, now try that with saline. big difference i bet. how can anyone talk about sodium chloride and any of these sanitizers as if they are similar?

"Ahem, a salt pool IS a chlorne pool"

isn't a salt pool...as in the ocean...dissolved sodium chloride? that's very different stuff. it's bonds aren't broken by dissolving in water right? now maybe they start off with salt to make chlorine compounds...makes sense since table salt has chlorine bound in it. but they are very different. i don't think you need to understand the industrial process (electrolysis) for making chlorine to understand it's nothing like table salt.

all i wanted to add here was my personal experience with various methods over the last years. what i outlined above works well for me.

waterbear, i didn't mean to kick your dog. i think the bleach method is yours yes? i just never had any luck with it. is it possible that the water out of my pipe has something in it that would effect your method? i imagine water varies like crazy over the nation. and i didn't mean to attack anyones business. i get just about everything from roberts hot tubs. soon will be getting a cover. i do appreciate what the community has to offer here.

i think some people are making a lot of assumtions about what i know and where i get my information. generally assuming i'm a bigger idiot then i am.

enjoy the show. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"ever get a drop of bleach in your eye? ok, now try that with saline. big difference"

No, no difference at all........YOU'RE diluting the salt with water with saline....just like chlorine in a spa. GO GET A CHUNK OF ROCK SALT AND PUT IT IN YOUR EYE........tell me it doesn't burn the holly b'jeebies outa ya.

The difference in bacteria growth in 100 degree water compared to 104 degree water is negligible.

No assumptions necessary. You type/say enough to go far beyond assumming.

Damn, outta popcorn...................

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No assumptions necessary. You type/say enough to go far beyond assumming.

Damn, outta popcorn...................

ROFLMAO!

i can't respond to everything. but let me just try a few. :D

chlorine is poison. gas or no gas. you know what i'm getting at.

Actually I don't since you statement just does not make sense.

did take some chem in HS and then later in college. i was ok at it. but to be honest i've forgotton just about everything. it doen't mean i'm wrong though. :D

No? Could have fooled me!

the halide displacement in the human body is from research by David Brownstein, MD. he really likes iodine. now... you don't have to believe him. the science on iodine and human health is all over the place from what i've read.

Here is a tidbit from Chemical Forum that you might find interesting:

"Now regarding halogen displacement. It�s certainly a very known scientific fact in the chemistry. But human body is not a chemical flask! First keep in mind that halogen displacement meant exchange of halogen anions (Cl-, Br- and I-) with more powerful molecular halogens (F2, Cl2 and Br2) in the following reactions:

F2 + 2 NaCl = 2 NaF + Cl2

Cl2 + 2 NaBr = 2 NaCl + Br2

Br2 + 2 NaI = 2 NaBr + I2

And certainly

F2 + 2 NaI = 2 NaF + I2

Cl2 + 2 NaI = 2 NaCl + I2

But again, human body is not a chemical flask! THERE IS NO FREE FLUORINE OR CHLORINE OR BROMINE IN HUMAN BODY!

I repeat, since this is important in lower case:

There is no free fluorine or chlorine or bromine in human body!

So, I�m sorry again to criticize your guru, but halogen exchange in human body is a total BS!"

ozone. yes i know. known lung irritant. what can i say... the tub came with the house. as far as i can tell there is no way to turn it off. they have a lifespan right? wonder if this is at it's end.

it seems there is an idea here that the chorine added to water is non-toxic... that combined chlor causes irritation. i'm sure it does. but chlorine is no saint. see the warning on the bleach bottle? ever get a drop of bleach in your eye? ok, now try that with saline. big difference i bet. how can anyone talk about sodium chloride and any of these sanitizers as if they are similar?

"Ahem, a salt pool IS a chlorne pool"

isn't a salt pool...as in the ocean...dissolved sodium chloride? that's very different stuff. it's bonds aren't broken by dissolving in water right?

Salt pools refer to pools that have Salt Water Chlorine Generators. They use electricity to make chlorine gas (ahd hydrogen gas) from salt water by breaking the bonds with electricity!. They are chlorine pools. Period. Perhaps you would like to change feet now. The one in your mouth is getting a bit soggy. Salt by itself will not santize the water. Even seawater pools are generally sanitized with chlorine, btw!

now maybe they start off with salt to make chlorine compounds...makes sense since table salt has chlorine bound in it. but they are very different. i don't think you need to understand the industrial process (electrolysis) for making chlorine to understand it's nothing like table salt.

all i wanted to add here was my personal experience with various methods over the last years. what i outlined above works well for me.

waterbear, i didn't mean to kick your dog. i think the bleach method is yours yes? i just never had any luck with it. is it possible that the water out of my pipe has something in it that would effect your method? i imagine water varies like crazy over the nation. and i didn't mean to attack anyones business. i get just about everything from roberts hot tubs. soon will be getting a cover. i do appreciate what the community has to offer here.

you are wrong about the dichlor/bealch method being mine. It was nitro's. But if you had read the stickies in the top of hot tub water chemistry section you would have known that. I don't thing the water out of your pipe was the problem at all. I am pretty sure I know exactly what the problem is though! :lol: :lol:

i think some people are making a lot of assumtions about what i know and where i get my information. generally assuming i'm a bigger idiot then i am.

enjoy the show. :D

I see that you still have not learned how to use the quote function in the forum but am not surprised at that either.

Actually the most dangerous chemical in your hot tub is dihydrogen monoxide, DHMO (also knows as hydrogen hydroxide). Even a small amount inhaled into the lungs can prove fatal! . In it's gaseous form it causes severe burns and ingesting it can cause death from electrolyte imbalance. Prolonged exposure to it in solid form can and will cause tissue damage In fact, it is responsible for the vast majority of fatalities in hot tubs and swimming pools. THIS is the chemical that you should be worried about..It has been found in biopsies of pre cancerous tumors and lesions.This chemical is used as an industrial solvent and coolent.and also in biological and chemical weapons manufacturing. It was used in Nazi death camps and also in pesticide production and distribution. If you want to get a chemical out of your hot tub this is the one! It is used in pools and hot tubs as a medium to maintain chemical balance. It is responsible for the vast majority of swimming pool deaths of children every year! There are many more deaths each year from DHMO than from chlorine!

If you are interested here are some MSDS for it

http://www.dhmo.org/...hemResearch.pdf

http://www.dhmo.org/...07-ChemSafe.pdf

http://www.dhmo.org/...S-DHMO-Kemp.pdf

THIS is what you want to keep out of your tub if you value your safety and your children's! However, it often proves to be an impossible task since without it is becomes impossible to make adjustments to pH or even temperature!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was not proposing that either of us take lethal doses of any substance, but I quote from this link that states the following regrading sodium hypochlorite (bleach).

Household bleaches are unlikely to cause severe irritation unless contact is prolonged or the amount ingested is large.

Now if you read around that sentence, there are serious side effects at various levels of ingestion. But bleach is 65,000 ppm and we're talking about spa water with 1-10 ppm or thereabouts. The LD50 for sodium hypochlorite is 5800 mg/kg while for sodium chloride it is 4000 mg/kg, both for mice. The point was that even a common substance such as table salt is lethal when ingested in larger quantities so calling something toxic doesn't mean very much if you are referring to a lethal dose. You were throwing out the word "toxic" ignoring dose levels. That's why I made the comparison.

I'm sorry that the Dichlor-then-bleach method didn't work out for you no matter the reason and I'm glad you have settled on a system you are happy with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

yes yes. the dose makes the poison. but come on. bleach is what 6%? make a 6% solution of table salt. put each in your eye. i'm just saying these pool sanitizers are a lot more toxic then table salt. and i think that's just common knowlwged. i didn't say lets use table salt to sanitize the pool.

ever notice how life can thrive around sodium chloride? oceans and stuff. not so many chlorine environments. and that's the point right? it kills stuff. but don't tell me they are equally biocompatible. that's silly. i did look up the LD50s and they seem to be close to each other. there has to be something more to this storey. does anyone really think they could di-chlor thier food all week and not get very ill?

i understand we all want to think that out spas are as harmless as saline. but come on.

we are talking about salt right? not "a salt". i mean the stuff on your table. the stuff that is not used to sanitize in general...unless maybe for salting meats....

i know the body is not a test tube. but that doen't mean you can't brominate thyroid hormone. it means things are lot more complex then they are in a lab. i would trust a guy with clinical expereince that is testing people more then a chemist on this one.

and i don't think saline is any better electrical conductor then water full of....well any ions. right? so you'll get fried either way unless you have some crazy distilled water.

anyway

I see that you still have not learned how to use the quote function in the forum but am not surprised at that either.

you know that's a lot of work when there are many authors and many post and you don't want to edit down a book.

well, i think i'm about done on this one. :D it's kinda beat into the ground. i don't think much of my thinking has changed about chlorine.

just some food for thought. even experts dissagree on some pretty major stuff. flouride prevents tooth decay VS no it doesn't and it's poison. red meat causes heart disease VS there is no relationship between red meat and heat disease. then there is the influence of industry...you know, like GMO food is perfectly safe? like almagam fillings with 50% mercury are totally safe.

it's difficult to find the truth i think. the best you can do is read up on things, keep an open mind, use common sense, pay careful attention to the motivations of your sources...

and insulting someone does not make your point any more valid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

and insulting someone does not make your point any more valid.
If you feel that I have in any way insulted you then please accept my appology.

I believe that when you mentioned, in your original post, that you were concerned for your children this sparked the "sharp" criticism of your methods.

I'm sure you can appreciate that many members of this fourm will speak up rather loudly if they feel that children's safety is being compromised.

If you were the only one to ever use the tub then it is certainly your right to add or not add anything you please. but you were the one that mentioned you allow your children in the tub.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No comments on the dihydrogen monoxide in your hot tub? LIke I said it accounts for the vast majority of swimming pool and spa fatalities when breathed into the lungs!

As far as the

quote function goes it is very easy to use
If you just take a few minutes to learn how to use the forum. It's just a matter of clicking a button and typing or cutting and pasting in between the tags.
You can even quote yourself!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see that you still have not learned how to use the quote function in the forum but am not surprised at that either.

you know that's a lot of work when there are many authors and many post and you don't want to edit down a book.

Not really

It's really pretty quick and easy! There is even a multiquote function t make it easy to quote multiple posts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Salt Overdoses that killed:

Salt Overdose #1

Salt Overdose #2

Salt Overdose #3

Salt Overdose #4

Salt Overdose #5,6,7

Salt Overdose #8

:

Chlorine or bleach overdoses that killed (excluding chlorine gas which we aren't talking about):

(please find some...I couldn't)

Now this isn't surprising, not because of the LD50 levels, but because salt in solid form is pure and concentrated so 4 grams per kilogram of body weight isn't very much to ingest for a baby or child (18 grams or 1 tablespoon for 10 pounds body weight). With 6% bleach, to get to the LD50 level requires 5.8 grams per kilogram which is 94 ml or about 3 fluid ounces per kilogram of body weight which is a lot of volume of liquid (nearly a cup for 10 pounds body weight) since it is so irritating so would be stopped before more is ingested.

For a 68 kilogram (150 pound) adult, half would die if they ingested 272 grams of salt (assuming human LD50 similar to mice) which is about 1 cup so quite a lot which is why you don't see adult deaths from salt overdose. It would take more than a gallon and a half of 6% bleach for the same death rate.

All of this is really a moot point, however, because the concentration of chlorine in pools is well over 6000 times lower than that of bleach. That's why I think bringing up "toxicity" for chlorine with regard to swimming pools and spas isn't appropriate. If you want to discuss the effects of disinfection by-products, then that's another matter.

As for iodine and chlorine affects on thyroid function, the primary paper that seems to be the one used as a basis by numerous pseudo-science websites is the following:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1474311/

If you read the paper, you see that the dosage where effects were seen was 100 ppm and the primary effect was not "displacement", but rather oxidation of iodide to iodine by chlorine and subsequent substitution reactions of iodine in organic molecules where it is speculated that some of these may reduce thyroid function (because there was not depletion of iodide itself in the thyroid, in spite of what the pseudo-science websites claim). Chlorine dioxide in the study showed inhibitor effects on the thyroid starting at 9 mg/kg/day. However, neither hypochlorite ion nor monochloramine had any effect on monkey thyroid function even at 100 ppm. The EPA limit for drinking water is 4 ppm (mg/L) FC based on drinking 2 liters of water every day so that is 8 mg of chlorine per day. This is well below the level where thyroid effects were seen, unless you only weigh about 2 pounds (and drank 2 liters of water every day). If someone wants to use a water filter to remove chlorine or monochloramine, that's fine, but that isn't the same as being in a pool or spa with chlorinated water.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

yes yes. the dose makes the poison. but come on. bleach is what 6%? make a 6% solution of table salt. put each in your eye. i'm just saying these pool sanitizers are a lot more toxic then table salt. and i think that's just common knowlwged. i didn't say lets use table salt to sanitize the pool.

ever notice how life can thrive around sodium chloride? oceans and stuff. not so many chlorine environments. and that's the point right? it kills stuff. but don't tell me they are equally biocompatible. that's silly. i did look up the LD50s and they seem to be close to each other. there has to be something more to this storey. does anyone really think they could di-chlor thier food all week and not get very ill?

i understand we all want to think that out spas are as harmless as saline. but come on.

we are talking about salt right? not "a salt". i mean the stuff on your table. the stuff that is not used to sanitize in general...unless maybe for salting meats....

i know the body is not a test tube. but that doen't mean you can't brominate thyroid hormone. it means things are lot more complex then they are in a lab. i would trust a guy with clinical expereince that is testing people more then a chemist on this one.

and i don't think saline is any better electrical conductor then water full of....well any ions. right? so you'll get fried either way unless you have some crazy distilled water.

anyway

I see that you still have not learned how to use the quote function in the forum but am not surprised at that either.

you know that's a lot of work when there are many authors and many post and you don't want to edit down a book.

well, i think i'm about done on this one. :D it's kinda beat into the ground. i don't think much of my thinking has changed about chlorine.

it's difficult to find the truth i think. the best you can do is read up on things, keep an open mind, use common sense, pay careful attention to the motivations of your sources...

Ever notice how people babble about nonsense when they don't know what else to say and then try and justify their point with more babble instead of doing some research to find out the truth then they say that the truth is hard to find out so I will stick to my supossed truth even when presented with facts? It's almost like they are saying :"don't confuse me with facts, I am happy in my ignorance".

ever notice how life can thrive around sodium chloride? oceans and stuff. not so many chlorine environments. and that's the point right? it kills stuff. but don't tell me they are equally biocompatible. that's silly.

And just where did you learn this? or is it just your supposition? There is so much intrinsically WRONG with this. LIfe does not always thrive around sodium chloride. In fact, it is used to kill snails and slugs! (Google it!) Chlorine baths at 48 ppm are used to treat eczema in children (Google bleach baths--even the Mayo Clinic, those quacks, have an article about it!)

Oceans and stuff? Oceans are not just sodium chloride, you are forgetting (or perhaps not aware) that there are large amounts of magnesium, sulfate, calcium, potassium, bromine, and many other ionic species present. Or our we just confusing your position with facts?

and i don't think saline is any better electrical conductor then water full of....well any ions. right? so you'll get fried either way unless you have some crazy distilled water.

HUH?

i don't think much of my thinking has changed about chlorine.

This translates into: "don't confuse me with facts, I am happy in my ignorance".

Salt Overdoses that killed:

Salt Overdose #1

Salt Overdose #2

Salt Overdose #3

Salt Overdose #4

Salt Overdose #5,6,7

Salt Overdose #8

:

Chlorine or bleach overdoses that killed (excluding chlorine gas which we aren't talking about):

(please find some...I couldn't)

Now this isn't surprising, not because of the LD50 levels, but because salt in solid form is pure and concentrated so 4 grams per kilogram of body weight isn't very much to ingest for a baby or child (18 grams or 1 tablespoon for 10 pounds body weight). With 6% bleach, to get to the LD50 level requires 5.8 grams per kilogram which is 94 ml or about 3 fluid ounces per kilogram of body weight which is a lot of volume of liquid (nearly a cup for 10 pounds body weight) since it is so irritating so would be stopped before more is ingested.

For a 68 kilogram (150 pound) adult, half would die if they ingested 272 grams of salt (assuming human LD50 similar to mice) which is about 1 cup so quite a lot which is why you don't see adult deaths from salt overdose. It would take more than a gallon and a half of 6% bleach for the same death rate.

All of this is really a moot point, however, because the concentration of chlorine in pools is well over 6000 times lower than that of bleach. That's why I think bringing up "toxicity" for chlorine with regard to swimming pools and spas isn't appropriate. If you want to discuss the effects of disinfection by-products, then that's another matter.

As for iodine and chlorine affects on thyroid function, the primary paper that seems to be the one used as a basis by numerous pseudo-science websites is the following:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1474311/

If you read the paper, you see that the dosage where effects were seen was 100 ppm and the primary effect was not "displacement", but rather oxidation of iodide to iodine by chlorine and subsequent substitution reactions of iodine in organic molecules where it is speculated that some of these may reduce thyroid function (because there was not depletion of iodide itself in the thyroid, in spite of what the pseudo-science websites claim). Chlorine dioxide in the study showed inhibitor effects on the thyroid starting at 9 mg/kg/day. However, neither hypochlorite ion nor monochloramine had any effect on monkey thyroid function even at 100 ppm. The EPA limit for drinking water is 4 ppm (mg/L) FC based on drinking 2 liters of water every day so that is 8 mg of chlorine per day. This is well below the level where thyroid effects were seen, unless you only weigh about 2 pounds (and drank 2 liters of water every day). If someone wants to use a water filter to remove chlorine or monochloramine, that's fine, but that isn't the same as being in a pool or spa with chlorinated water.

And here we have a post with references and documentation to back it up.

Now which one is believable? Hmmmm? Tough Question, no?

And, oh yeah, the multiquote function is really easy to use as I just demostrated!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m going to add a tidbit of history, which I believe is somewhat relevant to the current theme of this thread.

During the trench warfare of WW1, German forces released chlorine gas into the prevailing winds. Upon seeing the green cloud approaching, a quick thinking officer, (a Canadian named Cluny MacPherson, who later went on to develop the now famous "Gas Mask") obviously well versed in chemistry, instructed his troops to urinate on their handkerchiefs and cover their mouths. Gross maybe, but his chemical knowledge and quick thinking saved their lives!!

The point is this; when dealing with chlorine, or any other chemical for that matter, accurate and factual knowledge is “King”. Inaccurate or misinterpreted actions often result in serious consequences.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...