oldparr Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 I added 50ppm of Gentle Spa to my 550GAL tube and my PH went way up (>8.0). Now, I'm adding dry acid slowly. The PH still >8. Does it suppose to be near neutral? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gman Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 I added 50ppm of Gentle Spa to my 550GAL tube and my PH went way up (>8.0). Now, I'm adding dry acid slowly. The PH still >8. Does it suppose to be near neutral? Oldparr, Pro Team's Gentle Spa is supposed to be pH neutral. I have been using Gentle Spa for 2 years without a problem with rising pH. Therefore, my first thoughts after reading your post was that the cause of your pH rise is from another source or condition. Of course, it's possible that your batch of Gentle Spa is flawed in some way. Given you did not post any of your other water chemistry numbers, such as TA, CH (or Br), FC, CYA, CC, etc., (unfortunately), either before or after the addition of Gentle Spa, nor did you tell us what you may have added to your water in addition to Gentle Spa, if anything, we have no idea what was/is in your water. If you post some numbers, and provide more information of what's in your water, we may be able to help explain your sudden rise in pH. BTW, how did you determine your concentration (level) of Borates (not that I think the Gentle Spa is the cause of your high pH)? Kindest regards, gman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldparr Posted January 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 Oldparr, Pro Team's Gentle Spa is supposed to be pH neutral. I have been using Gentle Spa for 2 years without a problem with rising pH. Therefore, my first thoughts after reading your post was that the cause of your pH rise is from another source or condition. Of course, it's possible that your batch of Gentle Spa is flawed in some way. Given you did not post any of your other water chemistry numbers, such as TA, CH (or Br), FC, CYA, CC, etc., (unfortunately), either before or after the addition of Gentle Spa, nor did you tell us what you may have added to your water in addition to Gentle Spa, if anything, we have no idea what was/is in your water. If you post some numbers, and provide more information of what's in your water, we may be able to help explain your sudden rise in pH. BTW, how did you determine your concentration (level) of Borates (not that I think the Gentle Spa is the cause of your high pH)? Kindest regards, gman Gman, Unfortunately, I do not have the numbers prior to the addition of the gentle spa. I measured my PH 3 days ago and it was 7.6 (it was in the range 7.5-7.7 for a couple of months). Also, my TA was 60 2 or 3 months ago. Since then, I didn't measure it until now. After the gentle spa, it was 80. Now, I'm lowering it with dry acid. I use the CYA then bleach method (I add stabilizer right after the refill). I added 16oz of gentle spa using a postage scale and a plastic bag. Regards, oldparr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 This is strange. It almost sounds as if borax was added instead, but obviously you added directly from the ProTeam Gentle Spa product itself so maybe they put too much borax in it. It is supposed to be mostly boric acid with a small amount of borax and should be close to pH neutral. Anyway, you know how to adjust the pH at this point. Make sure you aren't getting fooled in the pH test due to a high FC level since that can make the pH look higher than it really is (high FC, especially above 10 ppm, partially oxidizes the dye in the pH test making it look purple). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gman Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Gman, Unfortunately, I do not have the numbers prior to the addition of the gentle spa. I measured my PH 3 days ago and it was 7.6 (it was in the range 7.5-7.7 for a couple of months). Also, my TA was 60 2 or 3 months ago. Since then, I didn't measure it until now. After the gentle spa, it was 80. Now, I'm lowering it with dry acid. I use the CYA then bleach method (I add stabilizer right after the refill). I added 16oz of gentle spa using a postage scale and a plastic bag. Regards, oldparr Oldparr, This may not be so strange as it may first appear. Here are some thoughts... You said you did not test your water immediately prior to adding Gentle Spa. Your last test results were 2 or 3 months ago. At that time, your TA was 60 ppm. You tested after the addition of Gentle Spa and now your TA is 80 ppm. If we assume Gentle Spa is pH neutral, which has been my experience, then something else increased your TA. In the past 2 - 3 months, have you "topped off" your tub to compensate for any water loss from evaporation and/or use? I have a 540 gal Sundance Optima. I used the Dichlor/Bleach method for almost two years. (I only switched to Bromine recently because I am away from the tub for longer periods.) Every time I needed to top off my tub, I always checked the TA because I knew my TA level would increase and my pH would rise with the addition of replacement water. Of course, the more water I added, the greater the increase. Also (and this might be immaterial since water can be drastically different depending on locale), I found that my pH remained most stable when my TA was around 50 ppm. The higher my TA, the more fluctuation I saw in my pH. If you added water to your tub within the last couple of months and did not check your TA, it's possible that your pH and TA levels were changed by added water and not Gentle Spa. BTW, although I find Gentle Spa a good product, it's not my intention to relieve Pro Team Gentle Spa as the culprit if this is what did, indeed, raise you pH and TA . I'm just thinking of possibilities to solve your problem. Gentle Spa is not cheap and if it is not the culprit or the pH and TA rise is attributable to other factors, you may have more confidence in using the rest of your purchase. FWIW, I have no affiliation with Pro Team or any other spa manufacturer, supplier, producer or chemical company except as a consumer. Good luck, gman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldparr Posted January 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 @chem geek: My FC was 3 ppm, so I think the measurement was correct @gman: Yes, I have topped off 2 or 3 times. That can be the reason for the higher TA. What I think is strange is that the PH was rock solid 3 days before the addition of the Gentle Spa. But no sweat, now the water is perfect again. I enjoyed the almost full moon last night Regards, oldparr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gman Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 @chem geek: My FC was 3 ppm, so I think the measurement was correct @gman: Yes, I have topped off 2 or 3 times. That can be the reason for the higher TA. What I think is strange is that the PH was rock solid 3 days before the addition of the Gentle Spa. But no sweat, now the water is perfect again. I enjoyed the almost full moon last night Regards, oldparr oldparr, Glad to hear your water is perfect. Next time you're ready to add Gentle Spa again (presumably on your next drain/refill, get all your other numbers correct and stable and make sure you take readings immediately before adding Gentle Spa. Then add your Gentle Spa. You'll know for sure if the source of your TA/pH spike was the Gentle Spa or something else. Good luck and enjoy. gman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomab Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 I have had the same results on all occasions after adding Gentle Spa after a drain and refill as well. The ph shot up off the scale. It was talked about in this thread here. Now I put the Gentle Spa in first then alter ph to where I need it to be. My thought is why adjust water parameters if I know as soon as I add a product I'm going to have to readjust anyway....not just a little but a lot. Not sure why it is not ph neutral when the product info clearly says it is. In my experience it clearly is not ph neutral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 It sounds like they are using more of the sodium tetraborate (pentahydrate) and less of the boric acid than they should in order to be pH neutral. That's really too bad since it defeats the purpose of being easy to add and not have to adjust. You could use boric acid which is slightly acidic (pH drops from 7.5 to around 7.2), but then you won't get whatever skin softeners they also add in Gentle Spa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new2spa Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 I just had the same thing happen to me. I measured my pH and TA right before adding Gentle Spa. My pH was 7.4 and my TA was 60, after adding Gentle Spa my pH shot up past 8.0, my TA jumped 20ppm. They must have changed the formula, or have a bad batch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion6192 Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 Same happened here. TA jumped 20 and pH went from 7.5 to 8.0+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 Well it's really unfortunate they changed the Gentle Spa formula to not be as pH neutral. If they had used only boric acid, then 50 ppm Borates would lower the pH from 7.5 to 7.3 if the TA were 80 ppm and the TA itself wouldn't change. For the TA to rise by 20 ppm, that is caused by the tetraborate but they put in too much so it overcompensated for the boric acid and the pH rose too high. The 20 ppm TA rise implies that they added enough tetraborate for 8.74 ppm borates so the rest to get to 50 ppm, so 41.26 ppm must be from boric acid. I calculate that with that combination the TA rises by 20 ppm and the pH would go from 7.5 to 8.0 so that must be what you are seeing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scuba Jules Posted July 28, 2018 Report Share Posted July 28, 2018 This response is wayyy late, I know. I have been reading this forum from stem to stern and have seen this pop up a few times in regards to adding borates. Hopefully, this will provide some current information. Currently (2018) ProTeam no longer lists the ingredients of Gentle Spa on their MSDS sheet, claiming "trade secret". So, if anyone else has been searching how to add borates - I would just take it that the formula has changed and go a different route. I'm only basing this on reading this forum and comparing the dates of the posts, in addition to current research of the product. I have not tried the product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Poe Posted April 24, 2022 Report Share Posted April 24, 2022 @Scuba JulesSo the current MDS lists the 70 to 80 % Chemical as Boric Acid and the 20 to 30% Chemical as Tetraborate Pentahydrate. Each of these chemicals is listed in Pool Math under the row for "Borate". My readings before starting starting were FC=4.5, Ph=7.6, TA=50, CH=130, and CYA=30 for my 350 gal Spa. I thought I would start conservatively and try to add enough Gentle Spa for 30 ppm Borates. If you put 30 ppm as the goal starting from 0 ppm for my spa; it lists using 8.6 oz for Boric Acid alone -or- 5.0 oz of Tetraborate Pentahydrate alone. I also noted that only the TPB portion needed to adjusted with muriatic acid. So assuming a 70% BA / 30% TBP ratio in the Gentle Spa mixture and playing with the math, 7 oz of Gentle Spa would yield a Boric Acid portion (4.9oz), which provides 17.1 ppm borates and also a Tetraborate Pentahydrate portion (2.1 oz) which provides 12.6 ppm borates. This totals to 29.7 ppm borates, which with the 70/30 ratio was the maximum borates I could expect from the 7 oz of Gentle Spa. So, not wanting to overshoot the amount of acid needed, the assumption is then, that the Gentle Spa is at an 80/20 ratio (lowest amount of TBP). At that ratio, the TBP in 7 oz of Gentle Spa would account for 8.4 ppm of borates which Pool Math lists as requiring 1.6 oz of Muriatic Acid (roughly 10 tsp). First shot with this ylelded a Ph = 7.6 and TA =60 and I'm good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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