Spa Mark-Up

[arf1410]

I am under the impression that Balboa is the most commonly used controller, though don't know that for a fact, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I have certainly heard excellent things about Hot Springs tubs, but in general, on this (or an other product for that matter) I would prefer non proprietary parts. If Hot springs goes belly up, were does that leave one? If they are the only source of parts, seems like there is no price competition. Now if it is simple to replace your bad XYZ with a different brand XYZ, then I guess it doesn't matter.

As far as your comment about "they've proven to be reliable economy models" - I hope that proves to be true, but until the product has 5+ years, hard to know for sure. I believe Strong has been selling tubs for 15 years...but have heard nothing about the longer term reliability.

I doubt there is any data available to know if the Hot Springs proprietary parts are more or less reliable than Waterway and Balboa. As far as Invensys being higher end than Balboa, is that an accepted statement within the industry? I certainly don't have the expertise to know.

Regarding the Balboa VS line - from the website the only other line for USA products is the EL series. According to Balboa the EL series has "Easier installation and serviceability • Multi-level diagnostic capabilities" of course those are good things, but Balboa makes no claim on their website (that I could easily find) stating the EL series has better reliability or function. It uses the exact same language when mentioning reliability of both product lines. It would seem likely that if the EL series was designed to be more reliable, Balboa would mention that!

One of the reason I actually felt better about buying a spa from Costco than I spa dealer, is I didn't have to deal with a commissioned sales person making claims, some of which there was no data to support. If there is data to support one brand, or series of controllers being more reliable than another, I', sure a lot of forums readers would love to see it.

[arf1410]

Subsequent to my previous post, someone posted on a different thread something to the effect of "Can I use a generic Balboa controller or do I have to by the Beachcomber at twice the price" - which is a main reason I don't like proprietary parts ...hopefully, he can, indeed, substitute a less expensive part.

[walleye]

geesh...How much more of this "Mark Up" thread is there? Take it to the Evo thread where this same discussion has a record amount of posts covering the same stuff. Like I said earlier, to each his own. Buy what you want and be happy. Why does everyone care so much about what everybody else does with their money? I don't care what anyone else buys. AND I hope they are happy....regardless.

[Dnepr Dave]

Proprietary Schmetrietary! My wife can figure out any circuit board and draw it's schematic. She can design printed circuit boards. But she seems to have no problem reverse engineering them either.

I thought that the television was a fluke, but then she did the same thing with the microwave oven and the pellet stove!

We haven't had any problems with the spa, but I'm not worried anymore!

She teaches Advanced Digital Electronics, but I still think it is a weird talent!

Dave

[hot_water]

I can't speak for all of the brands, but HotSpring doesn't use the same brand parts as Evolution/Strong. Most of their parts are proprietary, and unique to HotSpring. This includes all of the jets, the Wavemaster main pumps and SilentFlo circ pumps, ceramic mesh filters which last 5+ years, and the titanium heater. The IQ2020 controller is one of the few outsourced parts, and it's made by Invensys not Balboa, and is higher end than anything Balboa makes. For reference, the Evolution tubs are using the VS (Value Series) Balboa controllers, which are the lowest end Balboa makes. Compare warranties, and I think you'll get an idea of who stands behind their tubs more. Again, don't fool yourself into thinking your getting a more expensive tub with the Costco Evolution line. They've proven to be reliable economy models, but the lower end tubs lack circ pumps, use primarily or only bullet jets (little hydrotherapy value), are underpowered due to the number of jets versus pump size and rely on bottom suctions (unfiltered water) when pumps are running. This isn't a bash, and doesn't mean Evolution/Strong makes bad tubs, but definitely not an apples to apples comparison against HotSpring! If you want a similar value oriented tub made by Watkins (parent company to HotSpring), you need to look at Limelight, Hot Spot, Tiger River, etc. Features will likely be similar to the Evolution tubs, and price won't be far off the mark.

The various models of Balboa controllers are all the same exact quality, and use the same parts. The difference in the VS and the other lines is in the number of pumps and features they support. I had this discussion - with Balboa. The HS controller may be more "high end", whatever that means. All I care about is that it does its function and doesn't fail. Not a lot of complaints about Balboa. I've had two... no failures. That seems plenty 'high end' enough. Plus when it dies I can get another one for cheap online, rather than pay big bucks for a proprietary controller from HS or Sundance or D1.

As for flux capacitors, that argument is comedy-fiction just like the movie. Sure there are some cheaper spas out there. But the Evo uses US made Waterway Exec 56 pumps with US motors. Not a cheaper model. The Balboa isn't any different than any other Balboa. And the shell is CCA with acrylobond. The cabinet is much better than the standard cabinet on a Sundance or Hotspring.

No-bypass filtering is a marketing gimmick. It isn't particularly hard to implement. And there isn't any advantage - most of the rest of the spa world, including high end spas, use bypass filtering and the water is perfectly clean. There is no logical reason to assume that no-bypass is needed. It's not like the oil system in your car engine (and yes those do have a bypass but generally oil is 100% filtered except under certain circumstances).

Warranty has nothing to do with how a well a company stands behind a product. That's another marketing ploy. Warranties are priced into the product, and companies make profit on them. You can't infer anything from a longer warranty, unless you know the failure rate of the spa and the average repair costs.

Same old-same old here. When given the facts, the nay-sayers can't really point to anything about the Evo that's cheap. Because it isn't cheap. it also isn't the fanciest spa out there. But it's a good value, far better than most. I've looked at the cheaper Watkins models and what they are is... still overpriced. But you're free to hold any opinion you like. The only spa I thought was a comparable value to my Evo was the H20... that's a nicely designed spa, and only about $1200 more than my Evo... but unfortunately the dealer went under. Too bad. That one also has great bang for the buck. Personally I think HS products are underwhelming and overpriced. Even the idea of dealing with all those filters seems silly. I have just one to clean, and my water looks perfect.

If you like your expensive spa, great. Enjoy. Some of us have a spas that work great, provide a ton of relaxation, and are solidly built of available parts that are easy to get to. Oh, and we saved several thousand. I can afford any spa, but think one would have to be nuts to spend $10k on one of the name spas. Evos are not the most 'high end' but my wallet is sure more 'high end' as a result of not spending $10k on an overpriced one!

[dark rider]

The various models of Balboa controllers are all the same exact quality, and use the same parts. The difference in the VS and the other lines is in the number of pumps and features they support. I had this discussion - with Balboa. The HS controller may be more "high end", whatever that means. All I care about is that it does its function and doesn't fail. Not a lot of complaints about Balboa. I've had two... no failures. That seems plenty 'high end' enough. Plus when it dies I can get another one for cheap online, rather than pay big bucks for a proprietary controller from HS or Sundance or D1.

As for flux capacitors, that argument is comedy-fiction just like the movie. Sure there are some cheaper spas out there. But the Evo uses US made Waterway Exec 56 pumps with US motors. Not a cheaper model. The Balboa isn't any different than any other Balboa. And the shell is CCA with acrylobond. The cabinet is much better than the standard cabinet on a Sundance or Hotspring.

No-bypass filtering is a marketing gimmick. It isn't particularly hard to implement. And there isn't any advantage - most of the rest of the spa world, including high end spas, use bypass filtering and the water is perfectly clean. There is no logical reason to assume that no-bypass is needed. It's not like the oil system in your car engine (and yes those do have a bypass but generally oil is 100% filtered except under certain circumstances).

Warranty has nothing to do with how a well a company stands behind a product. That's another marketing ploy. Warranties are priced into the product, and companies make profit on them. You can't infer anything from a longer warranty, unless you know the failure rate of the spa and the average repair costs.

Same old-same old here. When given the facts, the nay-sayers can't really point to anything about the Evo that's cheap. Because it isn't cheap. it also isn't the fanciest spa out there. But it's a good value, far better than most. I've looked at the cheaper Watkins models and what they are is... still overpriced. But you're free to hold any opinion you like. The only spa I thought was a comparable value to my Evo was the H20... that's a nicely designed spa, and only about $1200 more than my Evo... but unfortunately the dealer went under. Too bad. That one also has great bang for the buck. Personally I think HS products are underwhelming and overpriced. Even the idea of dealing with all those filters seems silly. I have just one to clean, and my water looks perfect.

If you like your expensive spa, great. Enjoy. Some of us have a spas that work great, provide a ton of relaxation, and are solidly built of available parts that are easy to get to. Oh, and we saved several thousand. I can afford any spa, but think one would have to be nuts to spend $10k on one of the name spas. Evos are not the most 'high end' but my wallet is sure more 'high end' as a result of not spending $10k on an overpriced one!

First of all, you seem to be mistaking high end with build quality, which are usually two totally different things. With nearly all things manufactured, features, capability, expandability, etc. define high end, and not necessarily build quality. I've seen some instances where manufacturers skimp on materials in their lower end models, but with electrical parts, there is usually no difference. Balboa makes decent basic no frills controllers and main controls, and for the most part I've heard good things about their reliability. However, I have yet to see a Balboa controller that could do half of what the IQ2020 is capable of. FWIW, most of the smaller independent tub mfgrs that I've seen also use the Balboa components to keep costs down. From what I've seen the proprietary HotSpring controllers are about twice as expensive, even when ordered through online resellers, so no argument that they're going to be more expensive to replace, if you do have a problem, provided it is out of warranty.

No bypass filtration isn't a marketing gimmick, nor is it easy to implement. Bottom suction is easy to implement, which is why the majority of manufacturers use it! Your spa is clean, because the majority of the filtration is happening when you are not in the tub, which is the vast majority of the time. However, while you are in the tub, your spa is recirculating what is essentially unfiltered waste water. Provided your chemicals are properly balanced, it will kill the bacteria nearly immediately. However, it still doesn't eliminate the funk factor of sweat, urine, etc., which doesn't sit on the surface like oil. Personally, I want my spa to be cleaning the water while I'm it, not after I get out! No bypass filtration does require more filters than bottom suction spas, because a traditional single filter spa cannot move enough water without seeing a reduction in power from the jets, unless it has one or more bottom suction fittings. The tradeoff is dealing with the additional filters, but the fact that they last more than 5 years before needing to be replaced, and can be rinsed in a dishwasher, makes it very easy to service them.

A written warranty is a guarantee that if something does go wrong, the company will fix it. How does that not equate to a company standing behind its product? Yes, warranties are factored into the selling price, but company's with the best warranty will also strive to have the highest reliability, because any fixes will be at their expense! It's not to say that a company with a lesser warranty or a lower overall cost can't be every bit as reliable. However, it's a gamble that the buyer has to take. The written warranty shifts that risk to the manufacturer.

I've never seen an Evo in person, so I can't comment on its build quality. I'm sure it is good enough, but I think it's a stretch to say the cabinets are better, when they rely on perimeter insulation rather than full foam. Yes, it's easier to service, but it also doesn't insulate as well. I shopped a lot of different brands before I bought my HotSpring, and if there was better made tub out there, I didn't find it. The Everwood that HotSpring uses is a well made, good looking product. Have you ever lifted one of their panels, or better yet the Everwood steps, which weigh about 80lbs? Personally, I'm not a fan of fake stone looking cabinets. If I were going to that route, I would have used a real stone surround. The fake wood that most manufacturers are using these days is a necessary evil to promote longevity, and ease of maintenance, but real wood still looks the best IMO.

HotSpring is not a cheap tub, but you do realize that their lower end models start at around $5K? The other Watkins brands are cheaper still. Your Evo is similarly sized to a HotSpring Vanguard or a Limelite Pulse, either of which should be available for around $7500, which includes the subpanel and installation. Start factoring those costs into the Evo lineup, and your sacrificing local service, lesser warranty, lower end parts, less jet variety, a circulation pump, and noisy inefficient perimeter insulation. My post wasn't intended to bash Evo, as I have little experience with them, but rather to educate consumers. I don't think you saved anywhere near as much as you think you did, and depending on the gamble you took with reliability, it may actually end up costing you more in the long run!

[spatech (the unreal one)]

The various models of Balboa controllers are all the same exact quality, and use the same parts. The difference in the VS and the other lines is in the number of pumps and features they support. I had this discussion - with Balboa.

You discussed this with Balboa? I thought you were just a Costco spa owner and now you're calling the controls manufacturer to discuss their product lines? LOL, sounds like you really work for Strong.

[arf1410]

One of the reasons for my original post, is I was trying to understand the reasons for the difference in price between say, a mid range ($9k?) spa sold at a dealer verses a $5k spa sold at a big box store. Part of that difference is mark-ups, included delivery and installations costs, extended warranties, different components, other? And then, what are the advantages? Now we could endlessly debate whether a more expensive spa has higher quality assembly, say, leading to fewer leaks, but realistically, barring Consumer Reports magazine gathering data, there is no practical way to have real data to support or refute that position. When a claim is made that one component has better reliability than another one, it is possible to have data to support, or refute that claim.

I would love to see this discussion continue, in a respectful way with postings like "The Artic Model XYZ uses Waterway pump model A, which sells for $200, and according to the Waterway website, it uses 1 inch bearings, and rated for 1,000,000 cycles, and 60 db noise, while the $5k spa uses Waterway model B, with a 1/2 inch bearings rated for 500,000 cycles, with 70 db noise, selling for $90" To me that is real data showing an advantage of a higher priced component over a lower priced one.

If you have data, or a spot where even Balboa claims better reliability of one controller vs. another, please share it!

[spatech (the unreal one)]

One of the reasons for my original post, is I was trying to understand the reasons for the difference in price between say, a mid range ($9k?) spa sold at a dealer verses a $5k spa sold at a big box store. Part of that difference is mark-ups, included delivery and installations costs, extended warranties, different components, other? And then, what are the advantages? Now we could endlessly debate whether a more expensive spa has higher quality assembly, say, leading to fewer leaks, but realistically, barring Consumer Reports magazine gathering data, there is no practical way to have real data to support or refute that position. When a claim is made that one component has better reliability than another one, it is possible to have data to support, or refute that claim.

I would love to see this discussion continue, in a respectful way with postings like "The Artic Model XYZ uses Waterway pump model A, which sells for $200, and according to the Waterway website, it uses 1 inch bearings, and rated for 1,000,000 cycles, and 60 db noise, while the $5k spa uses Waterway model B, with a 1/2 inch bearings rated for 500,000 cycles, with 70 db noise, selling for $90" To me that is real data showing an advantage of a higher priced component over a lower priced one.

If you have data, or a spot where even Balboa claims better reliability of one controller vs. another, please share it!

There is no data to back up most opinions, everyone knows that. There is no Consumer Reports on spas, everyone knows that. There is no magic pill here.

There are many spa professionals on this site who deal with spas on a daily basis and most are not here trying to sell you on a specific brand. You can take their advice or you can skip it. You can buy based on price or whatever other reason you chose. You can buy based on a spa owners experience with their own spa even if it is a sample of one. You can read every post from every spa owner and get a feel for what they've experienced (even the ones who claim to just be spa owners yet also claim they are having phone conversations with spa controls manufacturers lol).

There is no easy answer; you just have to be a wise consumer.

[hot_water]

The various models of Balboa controllers are all the same exact quality, and use the same parts. The difference in the VS and the other lines is in the number of pumps and features they support. I had this discussion - with Balboa.

You discussed this with Balboa? I thought you were just a Costco spa owner and now you're calling the controls manufacturer to discuss their product lines? LOL, sounds like you really work for Strong.

I don't work for Strong, nor do I have anything to do (nor have I ever) with the Spa industry at any level. If you would like to make a little side wager, say, 5 years of gross earnings, based on tax returns, that I am fibbing then I will pay for the plane ticket to wherever you live to collect on the bet . Assuming you haven't wasted all your money on high end spas.

The reason I called Balboa is because your buddy Roger, in a previous argument - oops discussion - made a similar outrageous claim about that the Balboa VS was a cheap controller. The website didn't give indicate that it was, and, not wanting to talk out my derierre like some here, I called them. It took about 5 minutes of my day. But now I know - gasp - an actual FACT as opposed to the fantasy promoted here. I actaully called them twice... the second time was to see why their controller was only rated for 12 amp pumps (ampacity of traces on the circuit board is the reason, not a relay or other easily changed part) as I was working out what I would do to increase the pump power on mine.

You see, there are some of us that prefer facts rather than speculation or spout nonsense.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

The various models of Balboa controllers are all the same exact quality, and use the same parts. The difference in the VS and the other lines is in the number of pumps and features they support. I had this discussion - with Balboa.

You discussed this with Balboa? I thought you were just a Costco spa owner and now you're calling the controls manufacturer to discuss their product lines? LOL, sounds like you really work for Strong.

I don't work for Strong, nor do I have anything to do (nor have I ever) with the Spa industry at any level. If you would like to make a little side wager, say, 5 years of gross earnings, based on tax returns, that I am fibbing then I will pay for the plane ticket to wherever you live to collect on the bet . Assuming you haven't wasted all your money on high end spas.

The reason I called Balboa is because your buddy Roger, in a previous argument - oops discussion - made a similar outrageous claim about that the Balboa VS was a cheap controller. The website didn't give indicate that it was, and, not wanting to talk out my derierre like some here, I called them. It took about 5 minutes of my day. But now I know - gasp - an actual FACT as opposed to the fantasy promoted here. I actaully called them twice... the second time was to see why their controller was only rated for 12 amp pumps (ampacity of traces on the circuit board is the reason, not a relay or other easily changed part) as I was working out what I would do to increase the pump power on mine.

You see, there are some of us that prefer facts rather than speculation or spout nonsense.

Of course Balboa is going to tell you all their controls are top notch.

[reeffreak]

I actaully called them twice... the second time was to see why their controller was only rated for 12 amp pumps (ampacity of traces on the circuit board is the reason, not a relay or other easily changed part) as I was working out what I would do to increase the pump power on mine.

HW- At risk of going off topic and actually adding something of substance to the thread.. My spa is not a strong, but similar Waterway exec pump and VS controller... The main pump failed in the first couple of months (bad capacitor). The tech replaced with a Waterway Ex2, which had a good bit more power at same labeled amperage. Flow diagrams of the exec vs ex2 are online. You could prob swap the wet end for not a lot of $$.

[hot_water]

First of all, you seem to be mistaking high end with build quality, which are usually two totally different things. With nearly all things manufactured, features, capability, expandability, etc. define high end, and not necessarily build quality. I've seen some instances where manufacturers skimp on materials in their lower end models, but with electrical parts, there is usually no difference. Balboa makes decent basic no frills controllers and main controls, and for the most part I've heard good things about their reliability. However, I have yet to see a Balboa controller that could do half of what the IQ2020 is capable of. FWIW, most of the smaller independent tub mfgrs that I've seen also use the Balboa components to keep costs down. From what I've seen the proprietary HotSpring controllers are about twice as expensive, even when ordered through online resellers, so no argument that they're going to be more expensive to replace, if you do have a problem, provided it is out of warranty.

No bypass filtration isn't a marketing gimmick, nor is it easy to implement. Bottom suction is easy to implement, which is why the majority of manufacturers use it! Your spa is clean, because the majority of the filtration is happening when you are not in the tub, which is the vast majority of the time. However, while you are in the tub, your spa is recirculating what is essentially unfiltered waste water. Provided your chemicals are properly balanced, it will kill the bacteria nearly immediately. However, it still doesn't eliminate the funk factor of sweat, urine, etc., which doesn't sit on the surface like oil. Personally, I want my spa to be cleaning the water while I'm it, not after I get out! No bypass filtration does require more filters than bottom suction spas, because a traditional single filter spa cannot move enough water without seeing a reduction in power from the jets, unless it has one or more bottom suction fittings. The tradeoff is dealing with the additional filters, but the fact that they last more than 5 years before needing to be replaced, and can be rinsed in a dishwasher, makes it very easy to service them.

A written warranty is a guarantee that if something does go wrong, the company will fix it. How does that not equate to a company standing behind its product? Yes, warranties are factored into the selling price, but company's with the best warranty will also strive to have the highest reliability, because any fixes will be at their expense! It's not to say that a company with a lesser warranty or a lower overall cost can't be every bit as reliable. However, it's a gamble that the buyer has to take. The written warranty shifts that risk to the manufacturer.

I've never seen an Evo in person, so I can't comment on its build quality. I'm sure it is good enough, but I think it's a stretch to say the cabinets are better, when they rely on perimeter insulation rather than full foam. Yes, it's easier to service, but it also doesn't insulate as well. I shopped a lot of different brands before I bought my HotSpring, and if there was better made tub out there, I didn't find it. The Everwood that HotSpring uses is a well made, good looking product. Have you ever lifted one of their panels, or better yet the Everwood steps, which weigh about 80lbs? Personally, I'm not a fan of fake stone looking cabinets. If I were going to that route, I would have used a real stone surround. The fake wood that most manufacturers are using these days is a necessary evil to promote longevity, and ease of maintenance, but real wood still looks the best IMO.

HotSpring is not a cheap tub, but you do realize that their lower end models start at around $5K? The other Watkins brands are cheaper still. Your Evo is similarly sized to a HotSpring Vanguard or a Limelite Pulse, either of which should be available for around $7500, which includes the subpanel and installation. Start factoring those costs into the Evo lineup, and your sacrificing local service, lesser warranty, lower end parts, less jet variety, a circulation pump, and noisy inefficient perimeter insulation. My post wasn't intended to bash Evo, as I have little experience with them, but rather to educate consumers. I don't think you saved anywhere near as much as you think you did, and depending on the gamble you took with reliability, it may actually end up costing you more in the long run!

I'm mistaking high end?!? I don't really think there's a definition written anywhere about that, do you? Your definition of features is a poor one, IMO. We have been told on this very forum that inexpensive spas are sold based on having bells and whistles while the quality sucks! Now you are saying that high end means that the HS controller has bells and whistles?

Here's what I think: Terms like high end are subjective and mean nothing. If the feature set is sufficient to meet one's requirements and the product is well made and reliable, that's a good product. The Balboa fits that bill. If you like the features of your HS controller, great. All that nonsense isn't worth 15 cents to me.

As for the price, the reason Balboa costs less is because the sell a whole lot more controllers than HS. It has nothing to do with quality. The titanium heater on the HS is nice... my spa doesn't have it, but Balboa offers it and I'll think about getting one when mine goes out - depending on the life I got out of my standard one and the price for the titanium at the time.

You have a serious misunderstanding of filtration. "No-bypass filtration" is precisely a gimmick. Filters do nothing to take out urine or sweat. NOTHING. They remove particles in suspension. That is, dirt. Urine and sweat, along with all sorts of other things, go into solution and are not removed by paper filters. I can deal with my single filter in exactly the same way you deal with your five. And I have the same amount of particulates in my water as you do: insignificant. You may not want to hear it, but your HS isn't filtering urine or sweat, not even a little.

The warranty doesn't shift anything. You pay for it when you buy. That's the real gamble. A longer warranty costs you cash at the time of sale. That means that you are betting that your spa will fail. The manufacturer has the data and knows his failure rate and repair costs. So you are, effectively, ALWAYS betting against the house. Manufacturers profit on the warranty - not on each tub but on the total composite of tubs the sell. Most of the time, a shorter warranty is the result of higher manufacturing costs resulting from lower volume of production. The smaller manufacturer doesn't have the ability to price in a longer warranty because it would make his final price too high. In the case of Costco I'm sure the warranty is cut to lower the cost for Costco. It does not necessarily have a thing to do with the quality of the tub (although it might - but you can't conclude this without data). Another point you don't recognize is that not only do tubs with high jet counts cost considerably more to manufacture, they also have higher failure rates in the plumbing since the number of parts, shell penetrations, clamps and glue joints goes up dramatically. That is the real reason why your HS, with its foam fill, doesn't have many jets. It's cheaper to make, and they can't stand the increased chance of a leakage associated with high jet counts, being that everything is foamed.

You've never seen an Evo, but I've seen a HS. I'll agree that the cabinet looks fine. But it's not as nice. There is no way I would trade my Evo cabinet for a HS or Sundance standard cabinet.

And you really don't know that the Evo is any less energy efficient than a foam spa. That debate has raged on for years. Some other high end spas (Arctic, for one) use a similar system to the Evo and get very competitive numbers. Fact is, I've analyzed the estimates right from the HS web site about their projected costs and it comes out about the same as what I spend, based on adjustments for cost per kW-hr and temperature. The insulation argument is about as good as the "high end" argument... there is no hard data that makes any case that one is better another. But you don't see many Evo owners complaining about their electric bills.

The $5k Watkins tubs are not worth $5k. Of course I also think Nordic tubs are a joke for the money, too. The Vanguard is pretty nice, I looked at it. The local HS dealer here wasn't going below $8400 here in CA. But times are tougher now, maybe they're being more flexible. I paid $4800 for my tub, delivered. It cost me $200 to move the spa to the backyard. The electrical panel cost $94 at Lowe's, it's a Midwest NEMA-3R enclosure with a Seimens GFI breaker . Electrical hookup is what you get with your HS, not a full electrical run. If you can do the electrical, the hookup is nothing. If you have to job it out, it will take your electrician 20 minutes to do. That's worth maybe $30 if he's there to do the real, permitted electrical installation anyway. So someone would have just over $5100 in an Evo like mine, compared to no less than $7500 for your Vanguard. I'll count my cash while sitting in my Evo, thank you!

[hot_water]

The various models of Balboa controllers are all the same exact quality, and use the same parts. The difference in the VS and the other lines is in the number of pumps and features they support. I had this discussion - with Balboa.

You discussed this with Balboa? I thought you were just a Costco spa owner and now you're calling the controls manufacturer to discuss their product lines? LOL, sounds like you really work for Strong.

I don't work for Strong, nor do I have anything to do (nor have I ever) with the Spa industry at any level. If you would like to make a little side wager, say, 5 years of gross earnings, based on tax returns, that I am fibbing then I will pay for the plane ticket to wherever you live to collect on the bet . Assuming you haven't wasted all your money on high end spas.

The reason I called Balboa is because your buddy Roger, in a previous argument - oops discussion - made a similar outrageous claim about that the Balboa VS was a cheap controller. The website didn't give indicate that it was, and, not wanting to talk out my derierre like some here, I called them. It took about 5 minutes of my day. But now I know - gasp - an actual FACT as opposed to the fantasy promoted here. I actaully called them twice... the second time was to see why their controller was only rated for 12 amp pumps (ampacity of traces on the circuit board is the reason, not a relay or other easily changed part) as I was working out what I would do to increase the pump power on mine.

You see, there are some of us that prefer facts rather than speculation or spout nonsense.

Of course Balboa is going to tell you all their controls are top notch.

In the elctronics manufacturing world, it would cost them more to make a cheap version than to just use similar parts and design in all of them. Its called, 'economy of scale' and 'efficiency of mass production'.

The problem I have with you guys is that it's all nonsense. None of you can point to anything and say - "lookee there, that's junk". Just like your post, Spatech. If you think the Balboa guy was fibbing, how about you point to something about the controller that's cheaper? Not an electrical engineer? OK, fair enough - how about you point to failure rates of the VS compared to other controllers? Don't have any data? Then just maybe your statements aren't really justifiable?

This is where you trot out the "I have years of experience" argument. Great. Me too. 30 years of engineering. Which tells me that talk without data is pretty useless.

[Roger]

The problem I have with you guys is that it's all nonsense. None of you can point to anything and say - "lookee there, that's junk". Just like your post, Spatech. If you think the Balboa guy was fibbing, how about you point to something about the controller that's cheaper? Not an electrical engineer? OK, fair enough - how about you point to failure rates of the VS compared to other controllers? Don't have any data? Then just maybe your statements aren't really justifiable?

This is where you trot out the "I have years of experience" argument. Great. Me too. 30 years of engineering. Which tells me that talk without data is pretty useless.

And your talk is loaded with nothing. We load ours with experience in Hot Tubs and past history and you load yours with.........

[arf1410]

Rather than let this disintegrate into who's mother is uglier, lets try to keep with facts and / or data. Hot_water was told by Balboa that the build / quality and durability was the same for their two different lines of controllers. That is also consistent with what I read on the Balboa website.

Roger states, or implies that this is not the case. So to be clear, Roger, are you stating your experience as a repairman has shown a noticeably higher failure rate of the Balboa VS line compared with the Balboa higher line? and If yes, based on your observations, what do you see as the difference in build of these two lines?

[walleye]

I am going to get some popcorn. I thought this movie was about Spa Mark up? Isn't this false advertising? Come on guys, knock it off. Just enjoy your spa's.

[spawn]

Well at least we are no longer comparing the Costco tubs to "$10,000" spas any more when hot water says:

"So someone would have just over $5100 in an Evo like mine, compared to no less than $7500 for your Vanguard. I'll count my cash while sitting in my Evo, thank you!"

Obviously some choose to go with the Evo, some with the Vanguard. I can't speak to reliability, but I do not doubt that the Balboa equivlent of the HS controller would be more costly than the less sophisticated controller in the Evo. While I am not a believer of the no-bypass filtration, I do not doub that it is more costly to implement than a single filter with by-pass system. Conversely, while I am not a fan of large arrays of bullet jets, I do not doubt that they are more costly than than not having them. But I believe that the fully foamed spas are more costly to build and ship than thermo pane spas.

I think that the Vanguard is a more coslty tub to produce than the Evo. Continuing with the example, the $2400 cost difference also goes toward being able to test drive the tub and make sure that it is comfortable and sufficiently powerful rather than rolling the dice. It also goes toward a longer warranty - the importance of which varies among buyers. If you are like hot water and enjoy tinkering with the tub for fun, maybe trying to get more power from the jets etc, the warranty probably isn't important. If you are like some who want to know that they will not have to trouble shoot or pay for repairs over a long time frame the waraanty is important. Ownership is simplified from installation through operation - call the dealer. Personally I think comparing the Evo to the top line from a manufacturer is less meaningful than comparing to comparably priced offerings, but there has been a sense among some of having saved many thousands as they compare them to top lines. Kind of like comparing an economy car to a luxury auto.

Getting back to the original thread topic of spa mark-up, it seems that the prices on the Costco tubs is going up. Does anyone else notice this or it just me? Is costco keeping the same % mark-up and the manufacturer getting more for the tubs or is costco making more on them?

[Spa_Guru]

If you guys really want a side by side comparison, it is here;

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=33945

I will be posting photos of the stark differences between Strong and other brands.

[Roger]

Rather than let this disintegrate into who's mother is uglier, lets try to keep with facts and / or data. Hot_water was told by Balboa that the build / quality and durability was the same for their two different lines of controllers. That is also consistent with what I read on the Balboa website.

Roger states, or implies that this is not the case. So to be clear, Roger, are you stating your experience as a repairman has shown a noticeably higher failure rate of the Balboa VS line compared with the Balboa higher line? and If yes, based on your observations, what do you see as the difference in build of these two lines?

This question would have to be answered by Balboa. And they are not gong to answer it to me or you or hotwater. What I see is a more rugged and it would seem durable packaging and trim level. But not knowing circuit boards and how they are built I would never be able to tell the physical difference. And as I have said before Balboa would never tell you. Now if we could sit at a bar with a Balboa employee.......

I have visions of an assembly line and an inspection guy giving the boards that are not quite up to a certain high standard level a toss into a bin for use on the VS controllers and all others into a different bin.............again, just like at a factory building spas taking 1 hour to roll or spray on fiberglass backing for the tubs going out at a discount and 3 hours for the tubs going out at the regular price. Speed up the proccess, cut a few corners to meet a price point. Spend more time do it twice if needed if you can get full price. If you can get more money for it you will spend more time building it. If you are forced to sell cheap then you will do what it takes to make the margins.

There is no dout box store mark ups will be less, they have several things going for them over the ma and pa store. Non trained sales staff, no service department, no showroom to name a few things.

Our company builds fire rings, yea those simple rolled steel fire rings and we sell them to both box stores and high end ma and pa fireplace stores. While both look basicly the same there is noticable differences between the ones we sell to box stores versus the ones we sell to ma and pa. Ma and Pa demand a better quality number one, and they want several different stylesin their showroom. The box stores wants 2 styles and they only want to pay x amount. We use thinner steel, smaller round bar for the top lip and we use a simpler, less precise, less complete weld proccess for the seems and joints. We meet their price point and have excepted a smaller margin on them. We sell twice as many to the box store as we sell to ma and pa. I have a better one in my yard.....I know mine will last for many many years. The box store, not so much.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Rather than let this disintegrate into who's mother is uglier, lets try to keep with facts and / or data. Hot_water was told by Balboa that the build / quality and durability was the same for their two different lines of controllers. That is also consistent with what I read on the Balboa website.

Roger states, or implies that this is not the case. So to be clear, Roger, are you stating your experience as a repairman has shown a noticeably higher failure rate of the Balboa VS line compared with the Balboa higher line? and If yes, based on your observations, what do you see as the difference in build of these two lines?

This question would have to be answered by Balboa. And they are not gong to answer it to me or you or hotwater. What I see is a more rugged and it would seem durable packaging and trim level. But not knowing circuit boards and how they are built I would never be able to tell the physical difference. And as I have said before Balboa would never tell you. Now if we could sit at a bar with a Balboa employee.......

Exactly. This nonsense that someone called Balboa and talked to them about their different product levels is absolutely hilarious. I'm sure the guy at Balboas who was getting questioned was rolling his eyes as he repsonded how all their controls are equally state of the art.

The reality is manufacturers like Sundance and Jacuzzi ... have varying spa brand levels and use different controls for each for a reason. They have engineers that spec out what they need from Balboa. They know what they need and what they're getting. If the lower level Balboa controls were just as good as their more expensive controls I guarantee Jacuzzi would use those same cheaper contols you see on the Costco brands on all their varying Jacuzzi brands.

[arf1410]

you may very well need a more expensive controller to control more pumps...but again, we are talking durability.

Though I cannot state for certain that Hot_Water actually called Balboa, I'm not sure why you find that implausable. There is indeed a link to the tech support tele, with hours, that anyone can easily find from the Balboa home page. Don't think they would make that tele so readily accessible if they weren't willing to anser technical questions. Though I have not called Balboa, I did call a motor manufacturer with questions before I bought a high end treadmill a few years ago.

The issue is specifically "reliability" not the more nebulous term "better"… The Balboa website, which you can easily find yourself, clearly implies the reliability is the same.

Roger - great example with those fire rings. If the Mom and Pop store sold both versions (just like Balboa sells both lines) I can guarantee you the salesman would go out of their way to point out that quality differences. They want to up-sell you to the more expensive fire ring. They would go out of there way to show you the better welds. Convince you there is good reason to spend that extra money. Same for Balboa. They want people to buy the more expensive product. Why would they possibly want to keep a reason for purchasing the higher line product a secret? If there was better durability, they would brag about it!

[HotSpringGuy]

I am going to get some popcorn. I thought this movie was about Spa Mark up? Isn't this false advertising? Come on guys, knock it off. Just enjoy your spa's.

well I sign up and stumble upon this beauty of a thread and an argument about circuit boards to keep me entertained for the day at least...I do believe the original posters question has been answered in that margin varies widely from dealer to dealer with typically smaller margins at companies that maybe sell other products or provide other big $ services ie installing pools, saunas, pool tables, game room furniture, etc etc

[Roger]

Same for Balboa. They want people to buy the more expensive product. Why would they possibly want to keep a reason for purchasing the higher line product a secret? If there was better durability, they would brag about it!

You can bet they do. The Balboa salesman and the hot tub manufacturers I am sure are doing just that!! But you can also bet Strong asked Balboa what board would be best suited for the price point Costco was asking for.

[walleye]

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