walleye Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Well, Unless otherwise noted here, I have made my mind up to go away from the Bromine system my new Spa came with. I am now thinking either the Clear Water Blue or Nature2 systems. Any help or advice is needed so when I order I get it right. Are these good alternatives? Please tell me your educated opinions. Sorry for being a pain but this is the place I have to help me learn. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Why are you giving up on bromine? Is the ozonator having the bromine level consistently be too high for you? If you are not using the spa frequently (say, once or twice a week or less), then bromine is usually the easiest method since its residual can be maintained either by bromine tabs in floaters or by ozone reactivating bromine from a bromide bank. As for Clearwater Blue, did you read what I wrote about that product here? It is NOT a sanitizer. As for Nature2, the low-chlorine recipe (described in the Nature2 owner's manual) mostly uses non-chlorine shock (MPS) but you generally still need to shock with chlorine, but only every week or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walleye Posted October 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Why are you giving up on bromine? Is the ozonator having the bromine level consistently be too high for you? If you are not using the spa frequently (say, once or twice a week or less), then bromine is usually the easiest method since its residual can be maintained either by bromine tabs in floaters or by ozone reactivating bromine from a bromide bank. As for Clearwater Blue, did you read what I wrote about that product here? It is NOT a sanitizer. As for Nature2, the low-chlorine recipe (described in the Nature2 owner's manual) mostly uses non-chlorine shock (MPS) but you generally still need to shock with chlorine, but only every week or two. Thanks Chem Geek. I did not see your other reply regarding Clearwater Blue until after I posted. I will mark it off as a choice. As for Bromine, I am just trying to rid the tub of any irritants for my Grand Kids. I am VERY new to this and don't want to make any errors. Maybe I will wait till I am more used to everything to make a decision. The Nature2 seems like a good choice according to your replies? I am in the tub nightly, but after the fall that will change to 1-3 times weekly. I look forward each night to just soaking for 15 minutes or so. I do need a water kit as I do not trust these strips. I get the same reading from my tap as I do the tub. I just added the Spa Frog that came in my spa kit to the inner filter. Not sure what that even does in addition to the Bromine tabs in floater as well as the Ozonator. Now that you know my usage and details, unless you say otherwise, I think once I use up my bromine supply I will go with Nature 2? Is that a good choice for my situation? Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 First off, with a new spa, you normally decontaminate it if you didn't do so already. You use Spa System Flush to get rid of any biofilms in the spa that can occur from the wet testing that is done at the factory. If you are finding that your not able to get sanitizer readings in your spa easily, then that might be the problem (though you'd need a proper test kit to be sure). Otherwise, you could do this when you next change your water. During the time that you are using the spa every day or two, you could use any of the systems, bromine, Dichlor-then-bleach, Nature2 with MPS, since the ozonator will lower sanitizer/oxidizer usage and you would likely need to add some oxidizer after each soak. After you change to 1-3 times weekly, then bromine is easier since the ozonator can maintain a residual of bromine, but you could use the other systems if you were to add sanitizer/oxidizer every few days (maybe twice a week). As for which one to use, there is no single right answer here. All are EPA-approved (i.e. chlorine, bromine, N2 with MPS). And yes, if you want to minimize the use of halogen-based sanitizers (chlorine, bromine), then N2 with MPS would be the way to go though you would still use chlorine for shocking every week or two as needed to keep the water clear. As for the Spa Frog, it puts out both silver and copper, and that is better than the copper-only in Clearwater Blue (because silver kills fecal bacteria), but it is not an oxidizer nor a fast-acting sanitizer. As you can see in Spa Frog instructions, they expect you to maintain bromine or chlorine in the spa at all times (they have to say this to be able to make sanitation/disinfection claims since silver/copper alone is not EPA-approved). This is why we say you don't need these extra expensive systems since they don't eliminate the need for a fast-acting sanitizer and oxidizer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walleye Posted October 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Thanks chem geek. I am going to try to find a decent water testing kit locally. I need one that test both Bromine as well as Chlorine since I will likely need both at some point regardless of which system I get. I need Bromine testing currently. You are very helpful, thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Thanks chem geek. I am going to try to find a decent water testing kit locally. I need one that test both Bromine as well as Chlorine since I will likely need both at some point regardless of which system I get. I need Bromine testing currently. You are very helpful, thank you. If you have a bromine system an add chlorine it is converted into bromine sanitizer. You might want to take some time and read bromine for beginners so you understand how bromine works. The spa frog is really pretty useless, IMHO and just an extra expense. As far as test kits, if you are going with a chlorine system then get a Taylor K-2006. If you are going with N2 then you need the special MPS reagent in addition to the kit. If you are going with bromine the Taylor K-2106 is less expensive since it only included the tests needed for bromne but you can use the K-2006 by multiplying the chlorine test results by 2.25 to convert it to a bromine reading (and you only need to to the first part of the test). FWIW, MPS is a known irritant and my opinion is that bromine oxidized with bleach introduces less irritating chemicals into the water than N2 or bromine with MPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walleye Posted October 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Thanks chem geek. I am going to try to find a decent water testing kit locally. I need one that test both Bromine as well as Chlorine since I will likely need both at some point regardless of which system I get. I need Bromine testing currently. You are very helpful, thank you. If you have a bromine system an add chlorine it is converted into bromine sanitizer. You might want to take some time and read bromine for beginners so you understand how bromine works. The spa frog is really pretty useless, IMHO and just an extra expense. As far as test kits, if you are going with a chlorine system then get a Taylor K-2006. If you are going with N2 then you need the special MPS reagent in addition to the kit. If you are going with bromine the Taylor K-2106 is less expensive since it only included the tests needed for bromne but you can use the K-2006 by multiplying the chlorine test results by 2.25 to convert it to a bromine reading (and you only need to to the first part of the test). FWIW, MPS is a known irritant and my opinion is that bromine oxidized with bleach introduces less irritating chemicals into the water than N2 or bromine with MPS. Thanks Waterbear and all the rest for the replies. I am sure learning as I go. I will stay with the system I have for now until I am more comfortable. Based on the opinions I get here (which I value more than any others)the Bromine may be the best for me. As long as used properly, should be as safe as any for my family. Currently, I have the container in my filter area which holds bromine tabs, the spa frog in the filter area (free with spa) and the ozonator. I plan on cutting back to one bromine tab (from 3) and hopefully just shock as needed with a product called "renew"; unless advised otherwise here. My biggest challenge now is to master the PH and Alkalinity. From what I understand a PH of 8 is OK and should come down with time? I think it is a tad less than 8 now. My alkalinity is around 40. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sanders Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 I have the container in my filter area which holds bromine tabs, the spa frog in the filter area (free with spa) and the ozonator. Ozonators are really great at killing bacteria PROVIDED they run 24/7. Ozone is pretty short lived stuff.... maybe 15 or 20 minutes so the catch to them is that they are best served running on their own little service pump, or at least an independent maintenance loop so your not running the main pump all the time. Running an ozonator for 4 or 5 hours a day however won't have any great effect and as a result you will not really be able to cut back on much chemical. As for the bromine... I run that as well and i'm getting off it too. I've never had issues with the old fashioned chlorine, but this bromine rubbish I find hard on the skin. I'll go with granular chlorine for a bit and see how that works out. If everything is fine then I'll probably switch to ozonator/salt water chlorination in order to automate the process. Salt feels a little better too I understand. (The ozonator BTW is getting hooked up this weekend.... can't wait to try it out). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walleye Posted October 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 My Ozonator only is on while the circ. pump is on and that is only on when it needs heating up. It also filters through cycles automatically. Not 24 hrs.I wonder if there is a way to set it to circulate more often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Ozonators are really great at killing bacteria Do you have any evidence as to this? Not something that simply says "ozone kills bacteria", but some actual study (preferably scientific, peer reviewed and not funded by a company that would profit from the results) showing that how ozone is used in a spa, has any effects. As a rough analogy..everyone know that chlorine kills bacteria, right? But, more importantly, it's how the chlorine is used, that kills the bacteria! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 There are many scientific papers on ozone killing microorganisms including this one. Of course, concentration is everything and in this study the concentration of ozone in the water averaged around 0.05 ppm which is readily achievable by most spa ozonators (some are 50 mg/hour output). This link describes the half-life of ozone, how it reacts with chlorine, etc. When the ozonator is running, there will be some residual surviving in the spa if the water is clean, but only for a few minutes. If there are organic contaminants (i.e. bather load), then the ozone will oxidize it and not make it into the spa. Ozone does not leave a residual in the bulk spa water and couldn't do that safely without risk of outgassing, especially due to the spa's hot water and aeration from jets. The EPA regulates ozone levels in the air (see this link). Ozone is far more effective than chlorine against protozoan oocysts such as Cryptosporidum parvum for which chlorine at normal levels is practically useless. The bottom line is that ozone is a secondary disinfectant, not a primary one, and is useful for supplemental oxidation. It cannot be used in place of a long-lasting bulk-water disinfectant such as chlorine or bromine. It also does not let one lower the level of such bulk-water disinfectant. As for ozone lowering the amount of oxidizer needed, that depends on the oxidizer and the bather load. For chlorine, an ozonator will reduce the amount consumed if the bather load is high, such as using the tub every day or two. However, if the bather load is low, such as using the tub once a week or less, then an ozonator will use MORE chlorine, not less, because ozone reacts with chlorine to deplete it to chloride and chlorate. For bromine, an ozonator will increase its amount if the bromide bank is sufficiently high (though some gets reacted to produce bromate). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 I'm not claiming ozone in itself isn't effective at sanitizing...not at all. I am believing that, as ozone is used in spas in quite a different manner than it is in municipal water sanitation, it's virtually noneffective. As an example...chlorine is a great sanitizer. Evenrone will agree with this. But, if you put granular chlorine in a sock and wave it over the water, or, put three granules in 1000 gallons, it aint gonna do much of anything. Municipal water systems... the air feeding the ozonators is "conditioned". It's dried, chilled, and the oxygen content is HIGHLY increased. It's then injected as bubbles no greater than 5 microns, under great pressure, and kept in contact with the water for a certain amount of time. NONE OF THESE THINGS are done with ozone used on spas. Regardless of how much ozone an ozonator might produce, the ozone has to be absorbed into the water to be effective at sanitizing...You might as well put granular chlorine in a sock and wave it over the water. As I said, show me a study of ozone used in spas, in the way that most spas actually use ozone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 I'm with Dr. Spa on this one. Ozone is more of a selling point than anything esle. Forget municipal water supplies, look how ozone is used in aquariums and then compare that to how it is implemented in spas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walleye Posted October 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 So everything I have read here in repines to mine and others questions about Ozonators just be totally disregarded? I should go ahead and remove my Ozonator? This is getting confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 If ya got it, I'd leave it. Empirical data says they do something. Actual scientific data, in regards to how ozone is used in spas, doesn't exist...as far as I know, and I've been asking to see a study for years. Assuming spas are required to have 3ppm chlorine. I also haven't even seen anything to show that it will take less chlorine to achieve this when used in conjunction with an ozonator, or that with an ozonator a smaller ppm is acceptable.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 If ya got it, I'd leave it. Empirical data says they do something. Actual scientific data, in regards to how ozone is used in spas, doesn't exist...as far as I know, and I've been asking to see a study for years. Assuming spas are required to have 3ppm chlorine. I also haven't even seen anything to show that it will take less chlorine to achieve this when used in conjunction with an ozonator, or that with an ozonator a smaller ppm is acceptable.. I've seen many people complain of water care issues within a month of startup and when I check it out for them I find that with many their ozonator wasn't working (not plugged in, not installed, bad injector, pinched hose but usually just a bad check valve). Its not scientific data but its been enough for me to be a believer in its helpfulness. The problem is when owners start to think they can reduce sanitizer usage (or misinformed dealers tell them this). Ozonators are helpful in water care but they don't pay for themselves in reduction of chems to any large degree but they do reduce the water care frustration factor IMO. That makes them worthwhile to me but for anyone disbelieving, skeptical or just unsure and not wanting to spend the $, its not a make or break decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walleye Posted October 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 I may as well leave it. I have been told by my dealer that my Bromine level only has to be 1 with the Ozonater. What should I keep it at? I currently have 3 tabs in the floater and I get a reading of about 1 PPM. I did shock it once and it settled back down to 1 PPM. I shocked with renew. Non Chlorine product. I just want to be sure I am keeping water safe. You would think a dealer who has been selling spas for over 20 yrs would know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sanders Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Do you have any evidence as to this? Not something that simply says "ozone kills bacteria", There is no debate here...It's common knowledge and there are endless papers on the issue. Hospitals even use the stuff for disinfecting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone#Industry Now I'm not a hot tub pro but then it doesn't take a hot tub pro to understand the sanitizing abilities of ozone when properly used in a hot tub. I look at it this way.... if it's just a "selling gimmick" then it has tens of thousands of highly professional people (doctors... scientists... hospitals... etc) badly fooled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 I've seen many people complain of water care issues within a month of startup and when I check it out for them I find that with many their ozonator wasn't working (not plugged in, not installed, bad injector, pinched hose but usually just a bad check valve). Its not scientific data but its been enough for me to be a believer in its helpfulness. And I've seen countless people swear by their ozonators... when they're TEN YEAR OLD UV units (for those that don't know, most UV unites stop producing any measurable ozone after about 2 years) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Do you have any evidence as to this? Not something that simply says "ozone kills bacteria", There is no debate here...It's common knowledge and there are endless papers on the issue. Hospitals even use the stuff for disinfecting. http://en.wikipedia..../Ozone#Industry Now I'm not a hot tub pro but then it doesn't take a hot tub pro to understand the sanitizing abilities of ozone when properly used in a hot tub. I look at it this way.... if it's just a "selling gimmick" then it has tens of thousands of highly professional people (doctors... scientists... hospitals... etc) badly fooled. Again, this is NOT about whether ozone can, or has the ability to sanitize, but about how it's specifically applied and if there's any effectiveness on a spa under those specific contitions. Remember, waving a sock full of chlorine over the water will NOT sanitize it...even though, chlorine is unarguably a great sanitizer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sanders Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Again, this is NOT about whether ozone can, or has the ability to sanitize, but about how it's specifically applied and if there's any effectiveness on a spa under those specific contitions. Remember, waving a sock full of chlorine over the water will NOT sanitize it...even though, chlorine is unarguably a great sanitizer. And on that we can certainly agree. Application is where it can (and does) easily get screwed up. Ozone above certain levels is poisonous to breath and therefore should be restricted to the pipework of a hot tub.... best injected into the filters where they can do their destruction in a protective area. Interesting read from Ken (president of Ozotech): http://www.wcponline.com/expertview.cfm?ID=2927 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walleye Posted October 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 [quote name='Bob Sanders' Interesting read from Ken (president of Ozotech): http://www.wcponline.com/expertview.cfm?ID=2927 That article was written in 2004...... A lot has been learned since then. I am not saying not a good read, but outdated for certain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sanders Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 That article was written in 2004...... A lot has been learned since then. I am not saying not a good read, but outdated for certain. Outdated in what way?? What exactly has changed? It's still generated the same way. It's still toxic in large enough doses. It still kills bacteria. It's still (in some cases) not being applied quite properly.... and it's still quite misunderstood (as this thread so clearly demonstrates). So how is it outdated? Bottom line.. this stuff DOES work. It does a good job at killing bacteria provided its run 24/7. Doc spa does indeed however bring up a valid issue. If ozone is not applied properly it won't do much of anything other than waste a bit of electricity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreservedSwine Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 That article was written in 2004...... A lot has been learned since then. I am not saying not a good read, but outdated for certain. Outdated in what way?? What exactly has changed? It's still generated the same way. It's still toxic in large enough doses. It still kills bacteria. It's still (in some cases) not being applied quite properly.... and it's still quite misunderstood (as this thread so clearly demonstrates). So how is it outdated? Bottom line.. this stuff DOES work. It does a good job at killing bacteria provided its run 24/7. Doc spa does indeed however bring up a valid issue. If ozone is not applied properly it won't do much of anything other than waste a bit of electricity. Then you can tell me how much bacteria it kills, right? Or how much it doesn't? Or if the spa is safe? The problem with Ozone- it does kill bacteria, but how much, and is it enough to put a dent in bacteria levels? Did you note how the quote you included didn't answer the "500 gallon" spa question? He merely informed us of the avg output of an ozonator made for a spa, based on Hot Springs data. The entire article essentially explained ozone estimates of a 20,000 pool. The bacteria level, temp, ozone requirements, and off-gassing make ozone impossible to rely upon as a spa sanitizer. At best, it simply helps a little. We hope. In 20+ years in the service business, I can count the number of customers that called to say their ozoneator stopper working because of water chemistry issues on one hand. We routinely have injector service calls, but if the unit is making bubbles, people are seemingly happy, whether it's ozone or not... I too believe ozone, in a properly plumbed spa, does decrease bacteria levels and destroys organic material. But It's difficult to say how much this decreases typical sanitation and chemical routines, if any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walleye Posted October 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 That article was written in 2004...... A lot has been learned since then. I am not saying not a good read, but outdated for certain. Outdated in what way?? What exactly has changed? It's still generated the same way. It's still toxic in large enough doses. It still kills bacteria. It's still (in some cases) not being applied quite properly.... and it's still quite misunderstood (as this thread so clearly demonstrates). So how is it outdated? Bottom line.. this stuff DOES work. It does a good job at killing bacteria provided its run 24/7. Doc spa does indeed however bring up a valid issue. If ozone is not applied properly it won't do much of anything other than waste a bit of electricity. My point is simply the article is 8 years old. It does not take a rocket scientist to know that lots of things have been learned since then. I did not say rather it was right or wrong. If I am going to use research for education, I am not going to look for 8 year old material. Simple enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.