60 Amp Gfci/disconnect Help, Also Where To Purchase

[floridascubaguy]

Hi, I have a new spa coming in a few weeks, and I need a 60 AMP GFCI/DISCONNECT installed .

I built a deck, 18" off the ground, 15' away from my home, a free standing deck.

I live in Melbourne, Florida

I'm upgrading my main box in the home, as I have a 150 amp main service, and am putting in a 100 amp

sub panel in my garage.

I have about a 40'-50' run from the sub-panel to the spa. In my garage , up into the attic, down the ext wall, and I thought i would punch out of the wall about 8" above ground level, and trench 24" below surface, and run up a 4x4 post, and mount the 60 AMP GFCI/DISCONNECT 5' to 15' away from the spa.

I have a few questions :

Where do i buy a good

60 AMP GFCI/DISCONNECT , the one I'm looking at seems expensive, $249.00 , seen here :

http://www.xxxx.com/Merchant2/mer...Code=GFCIDIS60A

Is this worth the $249.00 ? I went to homwe depot, and they just carry a disconnect, with no GFCI for $90.00. From what I'm reading, it may be cheaper to install just the disconnect near the spa, and then install a GFCI, in the sub-panel box in the garage?

I want to elimante false tripping as much as possible. I dont mind spending $249.99 if this is really what I need. The prices seem to be from $139.00 to over $350.00 for the 60 AMP GFCI/DISCONNECT I'm finding on the internet, I dont know why.

Also, In maybe saving alittle money, I thought I would run either 4 or #6 wire, leave it hanging near the box in the garage, run in the attic, down the wall, and leave it coiled up outside, for the eletrican, with me all ready having the trench dug for him, so all he has to do is make all the eletrical connections. Is this a good idea?

Also what # wire should I buy and what kind?

Last question, I havn't ran my outside lighting around the deck yet, so I thought I would either run a extra wire like 12-2 or 12-3 , from a 20 amp breaker, and run all my extra lighting off that, which is not much, some low volatge lighting around the deck, and maybe some other small deck lighting.

The manfactour of the spa calls for a GFCI on a four wire 240V installation , I have the wiring diagram, and it looks pretty easy. I was even thinking of just running it all myself, and letting a eletrican look at it, and then having it inspected.

Any help is appreciated. I'm in the building buisness, here in Florida, and been in it all my life, know the basics of eletrical, but am by no means a eletrican, but this system dosnt look hard to wire, and suggestions?

[Chet]

floridascubaguy,

It sounds like you're doing what I just finished doing. Except you're adding an additional main box in your garage.

Basically, I have a 125 amp main box in which I installed a 100amp non-GFCI breaker. From the new 100amp non-GFCI breaker, I did a very short run (2-feet) to my newly mounted spa box (that I bought at Lowes for $129). The new spa box has a GFCI 50amp breaker. From that box, I ran four cables to the spa about 20 feet away. For the two hot cables and the neutral cable, I ran 4-gauge wire. For the ground, I ran 6 gauge wire. Everybody that has looked at it has told me that I went overboard. To me, I'd rather go overboard that just barely make it (if you know what I mean).

Also, I added a couple of 20 amp breakers to my spa box since I plan on doing outdoor lighting and low-voltage deck lighting in the near future as well. However, I didn't run the cables in my conduit running to the spa because I wouldn't have anywhere to go until the deck is built. I think it's probably best to have my outdoor lighting and outlets be in seperate conduit anyway. So, the 20 amp breakers are just installed in the spa box, but they don't have any cables running to them at this point.

Just a couple of questions for you: Why do you need 60amp breakers? Won't 50amp breakers work just fine? If you set it up correctly, you shouldn't have to worry about false tripping.

If you'd like, I can take some pictures of my setup. And post them soon. Also, take a look at the post I made here. I have linked to some photos of the process. You will see the electrical boxes, but those pictures mostly show the progress of the concrete slab. I will be adding more photos shortly now that the tub has been delivered. In fact, I got up at 5:30am to take my first soak in my new hot tub. Anyway, I'll be sure to take some pictures of the electrical boxes with the face plates off.

If you've got any questions, let me know.

[floridascubaguy]

Pics would be great. My email is mdelano@cfl.rr.com

The manafactour recommends a 60AMP breaker, as I have two GE 5HP pumps. From what I'm reading, spa's with two pumps require 60AMP, and spas with 1 pump requires a 50AMP breaker.

Thanks for your input, I'm checking Lowes website now. I did find a 60 AMP breaker with disconnect, at home depot, for around $100.00 , but I wonder why some GFCI spa box's are $100 , to $350 ?

I'll probley just run a seperate 12-2 , 20AMP for the lighting as well.

It took my two months to get where I'm at, and i still have alot of work to do before it arrives, Enjoy your new tub!

[Chet]

The manafactour recommends a 60AMP breaker, as I have two GE 5HP pumps. From what I'm reading, spa's with two pumps require 60AMP, and spas with 1 pump requires a 50AMP breaker.

LOL. My Clearwater Ultra-Sage 9100 has 3 pumps, lights, a bromine generator and a stereo: All on one 50 amp breaker.

I got to soak in it tonight for the second time, but it was my wife's first time. She is only to get in for a few minutes because she due in May with twins. Our 21-month-old son got in with us tonight too. We're lovin' it.

[floridascubaguy]

LOL. My Clearwater Ultra-Sage 9100 has 3 pumps, lights, a bromine generator and a stereo: All on one 50 amp breaker.

I got to soak in it tonight for the second time, but it was my wife's first time. She is only to get in for a few minutes because she due in May with twins. Our 21-month-old son got in with us tonight too. We're lovin' it.

really? And all its calling for is a 50AMP breaker?

Huh, thats weird.

Sounds awsome, cant wait to get mine either!!

Be sure to send me more of the pics

[Dennnis]

Seeing as the GFI is going to keep you from getting killed I would think I would shop quailty and not price on this one.

[Chet]

Be sure to send me more of the pics

floridascubaguy,

I've got new pics up here. It shows you the electrical boxes open. 100amp on the main box and 50amp going to the spa. The two 20amps in the spa box are not hooked up to anything yet.

[Jim_The_Jim]

SBSG is the only 60 amp made for spas.

[Chas]

Are you sure the manufacturer of the spa you are buying says it needs 60 amps?

There are sure a lot of spas out there with multiple jet pumps and other items which can and do run on a 50 amp service just fine.

A GFCI breaker should work for you - talk to your local inspectors. I have been doing this for twenty years, and have always installed a regular sub panel with GFCI breaker inside. Most of the models I sell actually have two breakers in the sub panel, but some of the models only require one 30 amp or one 50 amp breaker. In my case the manufacturer sends these along with the spas I sell, to save time, money and make sure things get done correctly for safety.

But I have recently installed a few tubs where it was far easier to just put the breakers into the main panel on the house. I asked my electrician about a shut off, and he said that as long as the homeowner has a lock and key on the panel - or even just keeps the lock and key handy - that you do not need a shut off near the tub. The guy has done this for our store and several others over the past few years, and it has passed inspection in several local cities. The GFCI breakers give all the protection that you need, and the lock allows you to turn off the power and lock the panel if a service man is working on the spa out of sight of the break panel. That way nobody can come along and turn the power back on unexpectedly.

The first one of these I did was for a Hollywood type who ended up using the same technique on two more of his homes. He was delighted because his places are all very fancy and he didn't want an electrical box anywhere near the spa. It was news to me! One of the benefits of paying a licensed electrician to do the work.

[soakerman]

I believe that Cutler-Hammer makes a spa breaker for 50 amp as well as 60 am both three phase and four phase. The CL line has a 15 year warranty on both the GFCI and the weather proof box and the BR series is warranted for five years on spa GFCI and the weatherproof box. These are sold as a spa kit and prewired. Saves some hassle and can be purchased at Lowes, Home depot, ect. The BR50SPA is under $100.00 and is specifically designed to be used with a spa. Whatever you purchase I would get a spa specific GFCI/disconnect. Dont try to jimmy this part of the spa, it isn't worth it.

[Dr. Spa]

You are quite correct chas. Like many building codes this one also is open to interpretation by the inspector. The intention of a shut off, within sight of the spa, is so that when Mrs. Jones calls for service, and the tech is there working on the spa, Mr. Jones, whom has no idea the Mrs. called for service, doesn't come home from work, see what looks like a tripped break, and flip it back on, thereby possibly causing the tech some extreme discomfort. Some inspectors will allow a remote disconnect/breaker, if there's a lock AND removable key the "tech" can take with him when he's working on the spa.

[soakerman]

do to code, where I am at they want the disconect in sight of the spa, no less. Check your local code.

[floridascubaguy]

Chas, thanks for the responce. Also Soakerman, thanks for your input. I did see a 60 amp at home depot for around $100.00

Chas, the manafactour recommends a 60AMP, 240 Volt hook up for the spa. They email me the specs, and I can foard you them if needed to look at.

Can I put the GFCI breaker in the main sub panal in the garage, and put the disconnect outside withen 5-15' in line of site?

Also, should I use 6 gauge wire for 60 amp service , or 4 ?

I read the GFCI box's, and they say to use a 6 gauge wire. Will a 4 fit if I decide to go with a 4?

I need to do this withen the next 2 weeks, because the spa is ariving soon.

I did all the low volatge lighting today around the deck, now I just have the spa wiring left, and I'm finalley just about done!

[Chet]

Get a 50amp box and run 4 guage for two hots and the neutral. Run 6 guage for the ground. It's pretty simple really.

[Chas]

Chas, the manafactour recommends a 60AMP, 240 Volt hook up for the spa. They email me the specs, and I can foard you them if needed to look at.

No, that's fine - just so you know exactly what the tub needs. There are tubs out there which can run on 50, but not all do so.

Can I put the GFCI breaker in the main sub panal in the garage, and put the disconnect outside within 5-15' in line of site?

Yes.

Also, should I use 6 gauge wire for 60 amp service , or 4 ?

You should go according to the NEC. Find the correct chart, and use the size called for. The charts go according to amp load and distance, and there are several charts according to temp rating of the wire. The number of conductors stuffed into the conduit, and the size of the conduit are all factors. Not knowing all the particulars, 6 sounds good, 4 sounds like overkill. However, this is one area where having a local electrician look at the job may be a wise idea.

I read the GFCI box's, and they say to use a 6 gauge wire. Will a 4 fit if I decide to go with a 4?

Unknown. Different boxes may have different lugs - 4 is HUGE wire.

[floridascubaguy]

They called me today, and the hot tub is coming this Tuesday

I ran around all night last night to Lowes and Home Depot, looking for a 60 Amp GFCI Disconnect spa pack,

and there all sold out.

I'm going to put a 60 AMP 2 pole breaker in the main house panel,. and put a GFCI - Disconnect 5'-15'

line of site of the spa.

I'm reading I can put a 60 Amp breaker in the main panel, and put a 50 AMP GFCI - Disconnect 5' - 15' foot away from the spa. I didnt know i could do this. They do have the 50 Amp in stock at home depot.

Can i do that?

The run is 100' , and I'm using 4 wire's #6 THHN in PVC scud 40 with a min of 18" below the ground

Can I use a 60 Amp 2 pole regular breaker at the main panel, and down size to a 50 Amp GFCI-Disconnect near the spa?

The spa specs call for a 60 Amp , not a 50 like most spas

[whyymee22]

I'M no electrician, but if your spa says use 60 amp, i don't think you should drop it to 50.. I just happened to be at Lowes tonight and i just picked up a 60amp breaker for my house panel and a 60 amp GFI outdoor spa panel box for my back screend in room. The breaker was $7.47 and the spa box with a 60 amp GFI was $94.00 i was going to get the 6 awg wire from there also but it was $2.79 a ft. so i picked it up from a electric contractor supplier for $1.47 ft. .. 100 hundred feet (big savings)....also you shouldn't need 4 awg. 100 feet with 6 awg and a 60 amp breaker has 2.5% voltage drop... well within the 5% drop max and still in the 3% drop max some say to use...the quote ["For most 120/240V systems using cables of adequate ampacity voltage drop is not a concern unless cable lengths are well over a hundred feet."]

is from:

http://nooutage.com/vdrop.htm

anyway this is all just my opinion but I am setting mine up this way.... please check with your local code dept. hope this helped a bit....

[floridascubaguy]

I'M no electrician, but if your spa says use 60 amp, i don't think you should drop it to 50.. I just happened to be at Lowes tonight and i just picked up a 60amp breaker for my house panel and a 60 amp GFI outdoor spa panel box for my back screend in room. The breaker was $7.47 and the spa box with a 60 amp GFI was $94.00 i was going to get the 6 awg wire from there also but it was $2.79 a ft. so i picked it up from a electric contractor supplier for $1.47 ft. .. 100 hundred feet (big savings)....also you shouldn't need 4 awg. 100 feet with 6 awg and a 60 amp breaker has 2.5% voltage drop... well within the 5% drop max and still in the 3% drop max some say to use...the quote ["For most 120/240V systems using cables of adequate ampacity voltage drop is not a concern unless cable lengths are well over a hundred feet."]

is from:

http://nooutage.com/vdrop.htm

anyway this is all just my opinion but I am setting mine up this way.... please check with your local code dept. hope this helped a bit....

Sure does, thanks,. I bought this one here :

http://spapartsnet.com/p_Electrical-Parts_...87_744_1_1.html

It was $310 for 60 amp, with shipping and tax.

I wish they had the 60 amp in Lowes for under a $100 here, i looked everywhere, even online at Lowes and Home Depot, and couldnt find the 60 amp.

I went with #6 THHN , Home depot wanted $0.94 cents a foot, which I need a Black, Red, White, = 110ft times 3, = 330 feet times almost a $1.00 a foot, was over $350 without the #10 Green for ground, which everything would have came over $400 just for wire.

I got a quote from a eletrical supply house tonight for $0.40 cents a foot for #6 THHN , as you can see , big savings there.

Tomorrow I'll be trenching everything in, and wiring it up Sunday.

Thanks and good luck with your hook up also, enjoy your spa !

[whyymee22]

thanks... i just came from my attic and was able to reroute a few things... just save about 20 ft of wire (the shorter the better) still have the box to install in sreened room ,, is that a light at the end of the tunnel?

[Wizzardofspas]

Are you sure the manufacturer of the spa you are buying says it needs 60 amps?

There are sure a lot of spas out there with multiple jet pumps and other items which can and do run on a 50 amp service just fine.

A GFCI breaker should work for you - talk to your local inspectors. I have been doing this for twenty years, and have always installed a regular sub panel with GFCI breaker inside. Most of the models I sell actually have two breakers in the sub panel, but some of the models only require one 30 amp or one 50 amp breaker. In my case the manufacturer sends these along with the spas I sell, to save time, money and make sure things get done correctly for safety.

But I have recently installed a few tubs where it was far easier to just put the breakers into the main panel on the house. I asked my electrician about a shut off, and he said that as long as the homeowner has a lock and key on the panel - or even just keeps the lock and key handy - that you do not need a shut off near the tub. The guy has done this for our store and several others over the past few years, and it has passed inspection in several local cities. The GFCI breakers give all the protection that you need, and the lock allows you to turn off the power and lock the panel if a service man is working on the spa out of sight of the break panel. That way nobody can come along and turn the power back on unexpectedly.

The first one of these I did was for a Hollywood type who ended up using the same technique on two more of his homes. He was delighted because his places are all very fancy and he didn't want an electrical box anywhere near the spa. It was news to me! One of the benefits of paying a licensed electrician to do the work.

It sure is nice for a service tech to have a disconnect next to the tub, so he does not have to keep walking back and forth from the grage when troubleshooting; not to mention being able to work on the Spa if the customer is not home and the house is locked. Just a thought!

It sure is nice for a service tech to have a disconnect next to the tub, so he does not have to keep walking back and forth from the grage when troubleshooting; not to mention being able to work on the Spa if the customer is not home and the house is locked. Just a thought!

[Aric]

If the manuf. says 60amps then use 60amps.

For fun though, let's do the math. You mention two 5hp motors. That's about 7,500 watts of power, or at 240volts about 31 amps. Now your heater is going to take some power too, but that's still under 50 amps.

Anyway, I had a 2 pump spa and could run the pumps and the heater at the same time on a 50 amp gfi breaker. But that's all my manuf. called for in the specs too.

Do make sure to get a good quality breaker. False GFI or over amp shutoffs will drive you nuts!

[Javier]

Has anyone experienced problems with the quick disconnect box long after it was installed? My hot tub of 4 years has worked fine until now, but today the breaker had jumped. It won't let me place it in the on position...it remains in the "middle" position with the red indicator on the switch.

Wondering if I need a new quick disconnect box or if the problem extends to another area. Anything anyone can tell me about this would be very appreciated.

[widespreadhawk]

Has anyone experienced problems with the quick disconnect box long after it was installed? My hot tub of 4 years has worked fine until now, but today the breaker had jumped. It won't let me place it in /the on position...it remains in the "middle" position with the red indicator on the switch.

Wondering if I need a new quick disconnect box or if the problem extends to another area. Anything anyone can tell me about this would be very appreciated.

another question for the experts... i just installed the 60amp GFCI spa panel and my city inspector came over (he is a buddy) and said that everything looks to code, except he would run a #6 bare copper ground from the spa panel ground bus to a nearby copper water faucet for added safety. is this necessary, as I grounded the spa panel from the main power supply and the spa?

thanks

[hot_water]

Ok, sorry for joining late, but first of all, you can't base the breaker size on the number of pumps or any of that. The motor spec (i.e., 5 hp) is a nominal rating - an AC induction motor can produce, for short periods of time, 300% or more of the namplate rated output power, the actual value depending on the specific motor. The motor actually does this, albeit for a very short period while the motor is spining up every time you start the pump. During this period the current draw is far more than you might conclude from looking at the power rating of the motor. On top of that, electrical motor power ratings are more or less completely unreliable anyway - manufacturers rate these things differently (that shop vac in the garage doesn't actually produce 6 HP continuously!). Even if you did sum up all the peak current draws for the spa equipment, and convinced yourself that the total number was under 50 amps, you should NOT use a 50 amp breaker!! Generally, the max load should be 80% of the breaker rating. In other words, you should use a 50 amp breaker for loads that are less than 80% of 50 amps, or 40 amps. Bigger then that requires a 60 amp breaker, which is good for up to 48 amps. Unless you know more about the engineering of your tub than the manufacturer, using a smaller breaker is likely not a great idea.

For your length of 60 amp circuit you should run #6 AWG for the two hots (red & black) and I recommend a #6 for the neutral (white). However, if your local codes permit, you could get away with a #8 white. The reason for this is that the white wire is only used for relatively light loads in a spa - the pumps and heaters are running off the 240VAC lines, and the white carries none of the current from the "heavy machinery" at all.

2002 NEC only requires the disconnect for other than single family dwellings, but I think in general most local codes DO require the disconnect for all spa installations. There's a lot of good reasons to have a disconnect.... just don't get it closer than 5 feet to the water - this requirement is so that people can't reach the electrical disconnect while they are actually in the spa. Now that would take a special brand of dumb but I bet it's happened.

As for the second ground to the water pipe, I don't see that it would hurt, but I personally wouldn't bother. Your water system is not really a ground per se, although there are some very good reasons why code requires the house water supply to be bonded to the electrical ground. The water pipes aren't really grounding anything, what's really happening is that the bond wire from the water pipe is really providing a good path back to the REAL ground at the panelboard. Better the current go there than through you! As long as your main panelboard ground is bonded to the water pipes per your local codes, your subpanel ground is in good order (and conected to the ground bus at the main panelboard), , and your wiring to the spa is good, I think you're good to go. You DO want to make sure that your spa is grounded and that all the bonds inside the spa (the bare wires running from pump motors to ground bus bar at controller) are connected. Bad grounding and bonding has killed people, so if you aren't sure of what you're doing, call someone who is.

Most local code will specify that your sub panel has to be a certain distance above grade. This is to keep it dry. In my area it's 12 inches. As for the conduit runs, again you have to check your codes. In my area, PVC has to be 24 inches below grade but rigid or EMT only needs to be 6 inches. No way to guess what code is in your area but your inspector friend will know for sure. Most people use a short length of liquidtite to connect up to the spa. The NEC limits this liquidtite run to 6 feet max.

Too bad you couldn't get the 60A GFCI from Lowe's. It's a Midwest Electric box, very good quality. The Midwest breaker is actually a Siemens ITE, which is a good part. The replacement breaker, which you CAN'T get at Lowe's or Home Depot, costs more than the entire Midwest disconect box, which is only $94! That box is a great deal. You should test your GFI as a ritual, because they do go bad... and after all, you're sitting in a tub of water proximal to several pieces of 240VAC electricity.

Good luck to you!

[Glid]

Javier,

Make sure you throw the switch all the way intothe off position. If you just try to push it to ON, you will experience the results you explained.