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Extra Insulation?


Wezard

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New to all of this, have been reading most of what is posted, excluding what appears to be brand specific problems. Searched but not finding much. My girlfriend, (live in) bought a 5 year old Leisure Bay, $500.00, works great.

My question is, how much benefit is there in DIY insulation, and what would be the best method, using inexpensive, (yeah, I know thats relative) readily available products.

I'm thinking of using foil backed foam pieces on the panels, thickest I can find that clears all the 'stuff', and spray foam on the underside of the tub. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I do live in Atlanta GA, so winters aren't brutal.

BTW, since we got it used, I missed the part where the salesman convinces me that the 1/4" of factory insulation is high tech magic stuff, and thats all I need.

Thanks, in advance

Mike

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You will get the most bang for your buck with a quality cover. Decent covers are around $300. Top quality around $500. As heat rises most is lost through the top of the tub. Anything you do will be a waste of time if your cover is not in good shape. Think about it, you could put the best insulation in the walls of your home but if the roof is in poor shape and leaking all the heat and electricity goes straight up.

The cover may look good but if it is heavy it us waterlogged, zero insulation. Check to see how it seals around the edges. Strap it down tight and keep that cash in the tub.

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Cover is understood, found a thread that recommended 3 outfits, at least one of which is owned by a moderator here. I was hoping for some advice on insulating the tub proper. Very surprised there hasn't been much discussion on the subject.

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"Heat", does NOT rise! This is a common misconception. Gasses and liquids that are heated, will rise within themselves. This is called CONVECTION. Once these substances hit a solid barrier, the convection STOPS. The heat then CONDUCTS through the solid material. And it conducts relatively equally up, sideways, and down.

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Dr. Spa, granted there is much hype and misinformation throughout the spa industry. The following is a direct qoute pasted from spa depots website.

After proper sanitization and water balance, your spa cover itself is the single most critical piece of equipment to keep your hot tub water clean, and to keep your energy bill at a reasonable level. Saving money on heating costs means properly insulating your tub, and that is what good insulating spa covers achieve. Heat rises, and just like in your home, most heat loss in a hot tub goes directly up. By sitting just above the steaming water, a well-made hot tub cover provides proper insulation to help trap the heat inside. A problem that arises from all the warm water vapor is that the foam core of a spa cover can eventually become saturated, as water molecules work their way into the millions of tiny hollow spaces inside the foam. When insulating foam becomes wet, it loses almost all of its R-value. While there is no such thing as a totally waterproof hot tub cover, DuraTherm research has developed what we believe is one of the most water-resistant cores in the spa cover industry. Our BlueMax™ core liner is a special chemical and water vapor resistant polymer barrier, with heat-welded seams, which surrounds the foam cores of our covers. Together with our aquatic-grade foam cores, it is one of the things that makes a long-life DuraTherm spa cover your best choice in insulating spa covers.

One thing is for sure with the cover off you can see steam/heat rising from the water and the tempurture will drop quicky. That is why in addition to my cover I got a foam floating cover from you.

And now back to the original question. How can extra insulation be added to the tub.

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For the sake of conversation, can we assume I have the best cover available, never open it and have added R-80 on top of that. Now what are steps to keep heat from escaping through the minimally insulated sides?

Doc Spa is correct, heat is energy, energy cares not a whit about up and down, knows nothing of north and south, it simply goes where there is less of of it, taking the path of least resistance. Course I also use the term "heat rises" cuz most times we are dealing with air and water, and it's accurate enough.

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Here is my two cents although it might not be worth two peso's. First disclaimer, I know nothing of insulating spa's, like I said my marquis is fully foamed.

Before you spend any cash trying to insulate an entry level spa I would do a cost/benefit analysis. The first thing you need to consider is what do you pay for a KWH of electricity? Most people enjoy a rate of under 0.10 a KWH. If you are around that rate your tub might be $30 a month in the winter and $20 in the summer. Let's say you spend $100 in insulation and it saves you $5 a month in electricity. In that senorio it would take nearly 2 years to recoup your cost's. I pay 0.30 a KWH in Califorina so plug your numbers in to see what works for you.

My advice would be to enjoy the tub and see how often you use it. If it becomes part of your daily routine save for a quality tub for the day your used tub dies. I think used tubs a great for newbies. You can get a handel on water chemistry and see what in a tub is important to you before you spend $5000 to $10000 on a quality tub.

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I'm curious, the Leisure Bay uses Emerson motors and pumps, thats good quality, Balboa controls and heaters, same as many upper line tubs. Factory support is nonexistent, documentation sucks, (though I have nothing to compare that to). What exactly, makes it an inferior unit? Lack of insulation, yes. What else? I do know that an equivalent unit, same brand would cost me 6 grand now days. God knows what a "good brand" would cost.

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Dr. Spa, granted there is much hype and misinformation throughout the spa industry. The following is a direct qoute pasted from spa depots website.

After proper sanitization and water balance, your spa cover itself is the single most critical piece of equipment to keep your hot tub water clean, and to keep your energy bill at a reasonable level. Saving money on heating costs means properly insulating your tub, and that is what good insulating spa covers achieve. Heat rises, and just like in your home, most heat loss in a hot tub goes directly up. By sitting just above the steaming water, a well-made hot tub cover provides proper insulation to help trap the heat inside. A problem that arises from all the warm water vapor is that the foam core of a spa cover can eventually become saturated, as water molecules work their way into the millions of tiny hollow spaces inside the foam. When insulating foam becomes wet, it loses almost all of its R-value. While there is no such thing as a totally waterproof hot tub cover, DuraTherm research has developed what we believe is one of the most water-resistant cores in the spa cover industry. Our BlueMax™ core liner is a special chemical and water vapor resistant polymer barrier, with heat-welded seams, which surrounds the foam cores of our covers. Together with our aquatic-grade foam cores, it is one of the things that makes a long-life DuraTherm spa cover your best choice in insulating spa covers.

Welcome to American marketing!...........why is it there are so many people so gullible to blindly believe anything that's printed?? ESPECIALLY when it comes directly from the company selling the product! "We have the best" <-- there, in print, so it must be true...WAIT! Let me make up some obscure name and trademark it! That'll make it even MORE impressive and believable.

As I said, "heat" does not rise....You could put a piece of thin plastic over the spa and you wouldn't see any steam rising. In fact, you would no doubt be quite surprised at how much heat simply covering your spa with a piece of plastic, compared to nothing, it would hold in. Do your own simple experiment. Next time you buy a cup of coffee, get two. Cover one with the plastic lid provided, and leave the lid off the other cup. Compare how quickly one loses temperature over the other.

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For the sake of conversation, can we assume I have the best cover available, never open it and have added R-80 on top of that. Now what are steps to keep heat from escaping through the minimally insulated sides?

Doc Spa is correct, heat is energy, energy cares not a whit about up and down, knows nothing of north and south, it simply goes where there is less of of it, taking the path of least resistance. Course I also use the term "heat rises" cuz most times we are dealing with air and water, and it's accurate enough.

Wezard, keep in mind that ultimately air is the best insulator. Foam of all types are used in spa environments simply because it is relatively inexpensive and holds the air well. For air to insulate best, it needs to be trapped so it can not constantly exchange with the ambient temperature and humidity. This is the basic fundamental of the how and why spa covers are made as they are and why they perform.

If you consider northern style double pane windows, it is the same principle at work. Consider this and do everything you can with the sides of the hot tub keeping these considerations in mind.

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According to doc's above analogy the high tech space age foil barier on your leisure bay is sufficient. Simple test you can do to gauge it's heat retention ability. Bring the water up to your soaking temp. Take note of temp with digital therometer, close cover and shut spa down for 24 hours. Then take digital temp again. With winter lows in the 30's I noticed a 7 degree temp drop over 24 hours. Durring the summer in ATL you will experience little heat loss I bet.

It's more than pumps and controll boxes that make a quality spa. It's all the little things you don't see like filtration and plumbing for the jets. You can bet that if LB tried to save a few buck's on insulation they used cheaper component's for the plumbing. A $0.30 part could bad that will cause a leak, it might take a spa tech 6 hours to fix that leak. That dollar LB saved in manufacturing the tub just cost you $500 in repairs. There are hundreds of componets in a spa, lots of ways for manufactures to save on construction and customers to spend later in the life of a spa.

No worries for you. If you get 2 years out of that $500 you made a great purchase.

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Wezard, keep in mind that ultimately air is the best insulator.

Air only insulates if contained in spaces LESS that 1/4" in diameter. Any larger and convection prevents it from insulating.

If you consider northern style double pane windows, it is the same principle at work.

Single pane windows have an R value of R-1. Double glazed windows (with air inbetween), R-2

According to doc's above analogy the high tech space age foil barier on your leisure bay is sufficient.

NO WHERE DID I SAY ANYTHING LIKE THIS. All I said was these a huge difference between having nothing at all, and a thin plastic cover. The avantage of a cover that actually has a high insulative value is infinitely greater.

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I'm curious, the Leisure Bay uses Emerson motors and pumps, thats good quality, Balboa controls and heaters, same as many upper line tubs. Factory support is nonexistent, documentation sucks, (though I have nothing to compare that to). What exactly, makes it an inferior unit? Lack of insulation, yes. What else? I do know that an equivalent unit, same brand would cost me 6 grand now days. God knows what a "good brand" would cost.

Balboa makes control boxes ranging in price and quality from 2-3 hundred to 6-8 hundred. Which do you think Leisure bay uses? Same with the motors and pumps and every component on your tub. I find it funny that anyone would think "because they use the same brand components as the high quality unit" That this somehow makes them the same!!

Proctor Silex makes coffee pots for 20 bucks and coffee pots for 100 bucks. They 2 aren't the same.

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OK guys, I'm asking what the difference is, not saying there is no difference. I've been doing industrial electrical and electronic work for over 30 years, I can tell you that there is little difference in good quality motors, and Emerson is good quality. That is even more so now days with the EPA mandating efficiency factors. Looking at Balboa, the controls are the same, the only difference being the options that each unit will support, in other words, the only way to spend more money on a Balboa control would be to install one that supported options that were not used. You could spend $100 on a 15 gallon Procter Silex commercial coffee maker for your 4 cups of morning joe, you spent more money, but is it better? I will say the wooden framework on my cheapie looks a little cheap, I have no idea about the shell, I am assuming there can be a big difference in jets. I've already said the manuals and support suck, at best. I'd like to be educated, but if you're stuck on brand name snob appeal, tell it to the folks who buy Sub Zero refrigerators.

I'm also going to assume that nobody on line this holiday weekend, has a clue about how to actually install additional insulation. Don't get me wrong, the comments were appreciated, as far as they went.

Just drained the spa flush, getting ready to do the super shock and drain, (and trying to figure a real easy way to calculate how many gallons this thing holds). Then I get to start hands on with the water chemistry, wish me luck, it looks kinda daunting. plenty of really good info on the appropriate forum though. On that subject, I knew nothing last week, not sure I know much now. I will be real careful about monitoring the dihydro-monoxide.

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Again I hope you get a knowledge response about the extra insulation. My advice, don't mess with it.

You are misinterpreting our comments on entry level spa's as brand snobbery.

You keep mentioning electrical components as that is what you have experience with. Again there is much more to a spa than electrical. Problems with leaking plumbing or other plastic componets are much more time consuming and costly to fix unless you are a DIY spa tech.

The advice most give around here is buy the best spa you can afford. In many cases you will be better to put the purchase off untill you can step up out of the entry level arena.

You mentioned your LB goes for $6000 today. A top tier brand might go for $8500 to $10000. What's the difference??? Warranty and longevity. I would venture to say that less than 10% of what LB made 10 years ago is still in use, while 90% of what the top tier manufactures made is still giving pleasure to the purchaser.

Still not everybody needs or wants a top tier. Some want to pay half the upfront cost knowing the tub will last half as long, then in 7 years buy a new tub.

The key to a satisfying purchase is knowledge. Buy what is right for your needs.

There really is no argument that top tiers are better quality though.

I only mention this because my recommendation for a used entry level spa would be to put as little money in it as possible and enjoy as much as possible.

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I'm also going to assume that nobody on line this holiday weekend, has a clue about how to actually install additional insulation.
A lot of people here know a lot about spas and share their info freely, but Im sure you have noticed, some people here know little to nothing about spas, and still share their info freely. Good luck in dissecting the information.

I dont know anything about the tub you own, so unfortunately I can't give you any help re: adding more insulation. Good luck to you.

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Hell, I don't know anything about the tub I own, except that, first thing I did was open it all up, nothing looked broken, so I filled it up, nothing leaked, everything worked, (except two aim-able jets with very low pressure, open to suggestions there). For $500 bucks, if it explodes in two years, I'm way ahead of the game,(a decent cover and lift cost me $450, almost as much as the tub). I also noted that it ain't rocket science, only thing on it I couldn't fix is the shell, though I'd ask for advice before tackling much plumbing. Since most of the advice re insulation was buy a good tub, I began to wonder what a good tub was. Maybe the section on water chemistry made my expectations unreasonable. Hopefully I won't need to post over there, since those guys lay it all out so well.

Pretty much decided to not bother with extra insulation, if my elec bill go's haywire, I'll reconsider. And I did take the advice about a good cover, (and a real water test kit).

Thanks all, and if I ruffled a few feathers - well, that can be a good thing. Remember, "you get what you pay for" is sometimes true, and sometimes it ain't. An educated consumer will get what he pays for, an uneducated consumer may very well pay for a lot of hype and marketing. And it looks like there is way more marketing and hype in the spa business than actual facts.

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Smart choice buying the used tub for $500 and if your electric rates are around 0.10 KWH the effect on your utility bill will be minimal.

You ruffled no features in this post. This was sunday school banter compared to some.

You are right all you need to know about water chemistry is laid out well, hopefully you have no need to post.

I hope you were not turned off by my advice. It will be the last I give on this forum as there are some that think you have to have a degree in chemisty or electrical engineering to have any valid input. I have gained alot from my short time here and tried to give back allitle but lately some of the personalities on this forum have just made this a place that is not fun to be. I have better things to do with my time than run around some obscure forum on the net putting people down.

Signing out from poolspaforum for the last time Itchy and Scratchy.

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Hopefully won't need any repairs, the two jets that didn't work, did. The operator just didn't know how to turn them on, or off. A bit of advice, it may seem like a good idea to fill with water to just below the jets, so you can maybe figure out how the jets work when you turn the pumps on. Maybe not so bad an idea, if one makes sure the jets aren't pointing at a window, get out your work boots and clothes, and leave the cell phone and blue tooth in the house.

Seemed like a good idea at the time.

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Wezard, keep in mind that ultimately air is the best insulator.

Air only insulates if contained in spaces LESS that 1/4" in diameter. Any larger and convection prevents it from insulating.

If you consider northern style double pane windows, it is the same principle at work.

Single pane windows have an R value of R-1. Double glazed windows (with air inbetween), R-2

This is a very, very frustrating forum. Is everyone here to take shots at other posts or to provide quality help and information to questions? The retorts above from a senior moderator to my post do not contradict and in fact, support my post. So what was the point?

More important than that, however, this type of reply serves no purpose toward actually providing useful info to Wezard's question. I get it that there is value in discussion on any topic, but only if each post provides insight and/or info related to the topic. The risk with retorts such as these is that the person with the question only gets frustrated weeding through posts that are not helpful. In fact, Wezard eventually mentions "ruffling the feathers" on his/her recent post, signalling his/her notice of perceived squabbling. Is this the type of forum PoolSpaForum.com wants to present?

I hope this post is not edited or pulled.

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I'm curious, the Leisure Bay uses Emerson motors and pumps, thats good quality, Balboa controls and heaters, same as many upper line tubs. Factory support is nonexistent, documentation sucks, (though I have nothing to compare that to). What exactly, makes it an inferior unit? Lack of insulation, yes. What else? I do know that an equivalent unit, same brand would cost me 6 grand now days. God knows what a "good brand" would cost.

Leisure Bay's the last 5-10 years are actually well made, and use quality components. Their main issues revolve around legacy support, little to no engineering, and the fact that... they're gone.

An example of not having an engineer on staff... I recall one year, some of their spas used two pump systems, that shared suction lines. The pumps would actually struggle against the vacuum each created in an effort to pull water. This isn't an issue with part quality, it's a lack of brains. Easily fixable, but how many consumers are going to know that it shouldn't be that way? Just one example of parts that are just fine, but simply throwing pumps, valves, and control boxes in a spa can lead to some issues. With that being said, most model's don't suffer from poor engineering-it isn't rocket science, and they've made some well made, reliable unit's, just throwing parts together.

Most of their spas are well made for their price range, all of the stuff from 1999 (electronic) to current is just great. Only real support issue is that balboa has stopped releasing some of the older circuit boards.

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