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Is Ozone Necessary?


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ozone can actually have a NEGATIVE effect in a chlorine system since the two tend to destroy each other so it can acutally increase chlorine demand in some cases.

Also, ozone is a toxic gas and there should be no residual in the water and that is often not the case in the less expensive units where ozone concentration can get high right at the water surface (where the bathers are breathing it in!)

Ozone is of marginally more benefit when using bromne since it will oxidize bromide into hypobromous acid but it also has a tendency to oxidize bromide into bromate too. Bromates are not renewable (cannot be converted back into hypobromous acid like bromide can) and are suspected carcinogens when ingested.

With all that being said, ozone can help reduce sanitizer demand in a well designed system but such systems are rare.

I would be interested in seeing some information supporting the theory that chlorine and ozone will destroy each other. Ozone is nothing more than a oxygen molecule with a third atom and does not destroy bromine or chlorine. Bromate are created when the bromine molecule comes into contact with a living bacteria this does not happen when it comes into contact with another oxidizer.

Ozone can be toxic in high levels so is chlorine and bromine. These oxidizers have to be by theyre very nature as they are meant to kill a living organism. Used properly they do an excellent job of killing bacteria in a warm water environment. My number one priority for my customers is that theyre spas are safe for theyre families to use and anything such as an ozonator that can help insure that is a good thing in my opinion. We arent talking about a system that is costing the customer $2000 as they did in the begining and for what they sell for they are well worth theyre price.

The theory that properly installed ozone systems are very rare is not true you are always going to have junk being peddled in any industry but there are many more good manufacturers out there than there are bad.

I just want to take a moment and point out, this conversation is a perfect example of why customers are sometimes so confused. Here we have several dealers completely disagreeing with another- who is the customer to believe when the professionals can't even agree?

The amount of misinformation in the industry shouldn't exist on something that's been in the wild so long.

I think it's because we're all going on personal observation, marketing material info, with a bit of pseudo science, where a little information can be a dangerous thing.

I'd love to see a peer reviewed study of O3 use in spa's.

Take care,

~Ben

PS- Waterbear, about off gassing- I have some doozies to tell back in the 80's.

There is plenty of hard facts available to anyone who wants to do the homework. The Center for Disease control has a lot of information on ozone as a disinfectant being used on everything from pools to hospital tools. The World Health Organization also has plenty of info on this. I could go on with other sources. I dont go off of marketing material or pseudo science and of course each one of us will use personal observation. Some of the arguments being against ozone just arent correct.

I was trying to be diplomatic B) I sense that you're learning quite a bit in this thread.

~Ben

I understand you were trying to be diplomatic, is this a forum where opinions and ideas are discussed or is it a site for opinions that are not to be questioned? If I see information being givin that I dont agree with is it wrong to ask for the facts after all we should all be here to learn. I've givin plenty of reading for facts that are not my opinion but the findings of scientists. And as of yet there has only been one post leading to any information on chlorine being couteractive to ozone( I have not read this article yet). And absolutely zero backup for the claim of Bromites being produced by ozone. I have gone through every chemical formula for reactions between bromine and ozone and can find nothing. And as I see from Waterbears last post he doesnt to show any proof of this HARD FACT.

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It kind of reminds me of all of the antibacterial hand soap products when normal hand soap has worked fine for generations.

AND studies have shown that plain soap is just as effective as the antibacterial variety (although I am sure there are some on here that will now demand to see such studies. To you I say...google is your friend!)laugh.gif

Thats what I thought.:)

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is it a site for opinions that are not to be questioned?

As long as you think Master Spas' sales tactics are all fraudlent, Costco sells shitty tubs, and that any chemical regimen than isnt highly chlorinated or brominated is going to kill people, you'll never have much of a problem here.

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is it a site for opinions that are not to be questioned?

As long as you think Master Spas' sales tactics are all fraudlent, Costco sells shitty tubs, and that any chemical regimen than isnt highly chlorinated or brominated is going to kill people, you'll never have much of a problem here.

You forgot chemical regimens that destroy plastic spa parts and ones that use toxic silver and hot water!cool.gif They don't kill people either!tongue.gif

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is it a site for opinions that are not to be questioned?

As long as you think Master Spas' sales tactics are all fraudlent, Costco sells shitty tubs, and that any chemical regimen than isnt highly chlorinated or brominated is going to kill people, you'll never have much of a problem here.

Who is saying you need highly chlorinated/brominated spa water? Craziness.

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I understand you were trying to be diplomatic, is this a forum where opinions and ideas are discussed or is it a site for opinions that are not to be questioned? If I see information being givin that I dont agree with is it wrong to ask for the facts after all we should all be here to learn. I've givin plenty of reading for facts that are not my opinion but the findings of scientists. And as of yet there has only been one post leading to any information on chlorine being couteractive to ozone( I have not read this article yet). And absolutely zero backup for the claim of Bromites being produced by ozone. I have gone through every chemical formula for reactions between bromine and ozone and can find nothing. And as I see from Waterbears last post he doesnt to show any proof of this HARD FACT.

When I write something that is an opinion, I state it as such. Usually, I state facts that are supported by scientific peer-reviewed research and I link to such references. I have done that, yet you question it without even READING it. So now I'll give you more, but you can readily do an online search yourself before you make your own opinions and speculate and disagree with the facts that I present with references. Just doing a Google search on "ozone bromate" would have given you plenty of sources. As for the fact references (such as CDC where there are references such as this incident where an ozonator was used but did not prevent disease) that you obliquely reference (without specific links), those talk about using ozone for oxidation or disinfection of drinking water, but for pools or spas they are ONLY for supplemental oxidation (and control of Crypto -- "secondary disinfection") and cannot be used in commercial/public pools or spas by themselves without an EPA-approved bulk-water disinfectant (e.g. chlorine, bromine, Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB). Even German DIN 19643 in Europe does not allow for ozone to be used by itself. What do you mean that you "have gone through every chemical formula for reactions between bromine and ozone and can find nothing"? It is probably one of the most important problems in water treatment when water contains bromide ions. Where are you looking at chemical formulas for reactions?

Look at my post again where I have added information about ozone oxidation of bromine (hypobromite ion) to bromate from that same paper. If you want to read the referenced paper (the second link), you have to buy it as it is copyrighted I cannot post a link to its contents. This paper refers to hypochlorite ion being oxidized by ozone to chlorate (and chloride). This paper states "Excess ozone oxidizes hypobromite ion to bromate ion, the reaction proceeding faster with increasing pH" and "Ozone reacts slowly with hypochlorite ion, producing 77% chloride ion and 23% chlorate ion". In this paper (seen for free here), Figure 2 shows the reaction mechanisms of ozone producing bromate while Figure 6 shows the reaction mechanisms of ozone producing chlorate and chloride. (I put this in bold because it has figures showing the reaction mechanisms that I'm hoping you'll be able to understand.) This link describes how ozone oxidizes bromide to hypobromite and bromate while it oxidizes hypochlorite to chlorate listing THREE scientific peer-reviewed sources which I will now link to for more detail. This paper states in the abstract "Ozonation of natural waters containing bromide ion leads to the formation of inorganic hypobromite and bromate and many brominated organic by-products, only a few of which have been identified" though you need to purchase the paper to see that the bromate formation does not require other organics in the water. This link is a critical review of papers on bromate formation. This link notes that the molecular pathway (i.e. ozone oxidation) is dominant in low DOC waters for ozone creation of chlorate.

This paper investigated if ammonia could change the amount of bromate produced from ozonation of bromide solutions. This paper talks extensively about bromate formation from ozonation of high-bromide drinking water. This link talks about bromate formation from ozonation of water with bromide present with a diagram of various chemical pathways to bromate formation by ozonation. This paper is another describing ozone reacting with bromide-containing waters to form bromate and the interaction of ozone and hydroxyl radical reactions. This link gives a brief summary of ozone reacting with bromide to form bromate as a serious issue in water treatment. There are many, many, many, many, many, many scientific articles, industry articles, manufacturer articles, etc. on ozonation forming bromate since it is a very serious issue in drinking water treatment. There is far less written about ozonation producing chlorate because chlorate is not a probable carcinogen, unlike bromate, but there are still the links I've already given you.

Del Ozone, a manufacturer of ozonators, states in this fact sheet that ozone reacts with chlorine (hypochlorite ion specifically) to from chloride and chlorate and reacts with bromine (hypobromite ion specifically) to form bromide (which they misspelled "brimide") and bromate. They claim that "the existence of other contaminants for ozone to react with gives little or no time for the Cl - O3 reactions to occur to any significant degree", however in a spa that is not used frequently there are not enough contaminants for ozone to react with so it does in fact react with chlorine (and bromine) which is why we see the chlorine demand roughly double in infrequently used spas with ozonators -- and yes, people have turned off the ozonators and compared chlorine demand in the same spa to see that it is indeed the ozonator increasing the chlorine demand.

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however in a spa that is not used frequently there are not enough contaminants for ozone to react with so it does in fact react with chlorine (and bromine) which is why we see the chlorine demand roughly double in spas with ozonators -- and yes, people have turned off the ozonators and compared chlorine demand in the same spa to see that it is indeed the ozonator increasing the chlorine demand.

So are you saying for low usage spas an ozonator does little and in fact causes more chlorine usafe but for heavier use they make more sense?

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however in a spa that is not used frequently there are not enough contaminants for ozone to react with so it does in fact react with chlorine (and bromine) which is why we see the chlorine demand roughly double in spas with ozonators -- and yes, people have turned off the ozonators and compared chlorine demand in the same spa to see that it is indeed the ozonator increasing the chlorine demand.

So are you saying for low usage spas an ozonator does little and in fact causes more chlorine usafe but for heavier use they make more sense?

That seems to be what he is saying. While I found the opposite to be true. 8 hours of filtration a day and gone for 4-5 days. Yes I added a teaspoon before use and a couple after use but saw that the water remained stable.

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Geez! After reading this, I think I'm gonna unplug my Ozonator.

The issue with bromates being a probable carcinogen is more about drinking water. You aren't drinking spa water and the bromate ion doesn't appear to absorbed through the skin (see this link as one of many on this topic). Sorry to have scared anyone.

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That seems to be what he is saying. While I found the opposite to be true. 8 hours of filtration a day and gone for 4-5 days. Yes I added a teaspoon before use and a couple after use but saw that the water remained stable.

Roger, so just to be clear, you find that if you add chlorine after a soak and then you leave for 4-5 days that the chlorine level remains the same upon your return? Is that what you are saying? What does "water remained stable" mean?

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So are you saying for low usage spas an ozonator does little and in fact causes more chlorine usafe but for heavier use they make more sense?

For functioning ozonators that are actually strong enough to do anything, then yes that is correct. Some ozonators are so weak that they have virtually no effect while others work for a while and then break so people don't notice the differing chlorine demand relative to no ozonator because their ozonator isn't working.

Ozonators also make sense for bromine spas since they will generate more bromine even when the spa is not in use (I'm ignoring the bromate formation which may not be a problem since the water is not ingested).

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That seems to be what he is saying. While I found the opposite to be true. 8 hours of filtration a day and gone for 4-5 days. Yes I added a teaspoon before use and a couple after use but saw that the water remained stable.

Roger, so just to be clear, you find that if you add chlorine after a soak and then you leave for 4-5 days that the chlorine level remains the same upon your return? Is that what you are saying? What does "water remained stable" mean?

Yes, add chlorine after a soak. Leave for 4-5 days and open up the tub. Add a small amount of chlorine (tsp) and soak that night. Then add at exit as always and the water remained clear and clean for the balance of it's life (3-4 months) This all revolved around a regimine of adding 1 TBLS on exit and using an ozononater, while shocking (achieving 6-8 PPM) after 6-8 soaks which in my case could be a month or more. A couple soaks a week maybe. 4-8 soaks a month. I liked to shock 3-4 times per water change and change every 3-4 months.

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Yes, add chlorine after a soak. Leave for 4-5 days and open up the tub. Add a small amount of chlorine (tsp) and soak that night. Then add at exit as always and the water remained clear and clean for the balance of it's life (3-4 months) This all revolved around a regimine of adding 1 TBLS on exit and using an ozononater, while shocking (achieving 6-8 PPM) after 6-8 soaks which in my case could be a month or more. A couple soaks a week maybe. 4-8 soaks a month. I liked to shock 3-4 times per water change and change every 3-4 months.

Did you measure the chlorine level before you added some before the soak (I assume you are using chlorine and not bromine)? The water can stay clear even with no ozonator and using insufficient chlorine. It's just that it's more likely to go bad and that an ozonator doesn't guarantee that it won't though might improve the chances (i.e. we've had reports on this forum of people with ozonators that went on vacation or otherwise didn't use their spas and chlorinate them and the water got cloudy). Mostly what I was describing was the daily chlorine demand so unless you were measuring the chlorine level in between your soaks and seeing the rate of loss each day, then you can't tell if the ozonator was using up more chlorine than without an ozonator. Also, at 2 soaks per week, this won't be as dramatic as just once a week.

By the way, 1 tablespoon (3 teaspoons) of Dichlor would handle almost one person-hour of soak time so how many people soaked and for how long (each time)? It sounds like maybe you are using the expected amount of needed chlorine if there were no ozonator, rather than less so I'm missing how the ozonator is helping.

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Yes, add chlorine after a soak. Leave for 4-5 days and open up the tub. Add a small amount of chlorine (tsp) and soak that night. Then add at exit as always and the water remained clear and clean for the balance of it's life (3-4 months) This all revolved around a regimine of adding 1 TBLS on exit and using an ozononater, while shocking (achieving 6-8 PPM) after 6-8 soaks which in my case could be a month or more. A couple soaks a week maybe. 4-8 soaks a month. I liked to shock 3-4 times per water change and change every 3-4 months.

Did you measure the chlorine level before you added some before the soak (I assume you are using chlorine and not bromine)? The water can stay clear even with no ozonator and using insufficient chlorine. It's just that it's more likely to go bad and that an ozonator doesn't guarantee that it won't though might improve the chances (i.e. we've had reports on this forum of people with ozonators that went on vacation or otherwise didn't use their spas and chlorinate them and the water got cloudy). Mostly what I was describing was the daily chlorine demand so unless you were measuring the chlorine level in between your soaks and seeing the rate of loss each day, then you can't tell if the ozonator was using up more chlorine than without an ozonator. Also, at 2 soaks per week, this won't be as dramatic as just once a week.

By the way, 1 tablespoon (3 teaspoons) of Dichlor would handle almost one person-hour of soak time so how many people soaked and for how long (each time)? It sounds like maybe you are using the expected amount of needed chlorine if there were no ozonator, rather than less so I'm missing how the ozonator is helping.

I spose me relying on ozone to maintain during extended non use periods could be speculation. It seemed to work. Not sure chlorine had anything to do with it as it's dissapation rate was so fast. After 4-5 days of non use i am sure my chlorine was 0 PPM

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I spose me relying on ozone to maintain during extended non use periods could be speculation. It seemed to work. Not sure chlorine had anything to do with it as it's dissapation rate was so fast. After 4-5 days of non use i am sure my chlorine was 0 PPM

OK, then this could be consistent with the increased chlorine demand from ozone after bather load is taken care of, but as for whether or not ozone helped to keep the spa clear, I don't think that's definitive one way or another. All I was saying about that was that some people reported having problems in spite of having an ozonator -- one that was known to be functioning because of its effects on chlorine demand -- so it's not a sure thing, that's all.

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Chem Geek / Waterbear / Roger:

Do you or do you not have an Ozonator?

Since you are new to this forum I will take the time to answer you, even though I find your question a bit strange. You make the assumption that i currently own a portable hot tub, which I do not. I have in the past, both with and without ozone and also have extensive experience with both CD and UV ozone generators on reef aquaria so I do know ozone use both personally AND professionally in pools, spas,and aquaria.

Currently I have an inground pool with spillover spa that uses a SWCG so I have no need for ozone,

Ozone can be of some benefit as a supplemental sanitizer and oxidizer if it is properly implemented but it is more of a marketing tool the way it is implemented in most spa. Top of the line spas with CD ozone systems can be helpful, more so with bromine than chlorine but, as chem geek pointed out, much depends on usage patterns. UV units that bubble ozone directly into the water (which is what is found on many less expensive spas) really don't do a whole lot.

In the low end spas that you indicated you are looking at I would not consider ozone at all.

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I'm of the opinion that if you aren't a regular dipper (only twice a week) and spend time away, say 4-5 days where you can't regulate your chemicals then an ozonator in combination with bromine is probably the best option. I would probably goes as far as to say if you've got an ozonater then bromine would still be the best option regardless of your usage.

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Chem Geek / Waterbear / Roger:

Do you or do you not have an Ozonator?

No ozonator. No spa. Pool only, but I'm not giving my personal experience (at least not for spas -- I do have a pool) but rather summarizing both the chemistry and the experiences of many who have reported here and on other forums (plus consolidated reports from dealers, when they report in these forums).

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Waterbear / Chem Geek,

Thanks for the replies. I meant no foul when asked. In fact after reading your posts I asked only to determine if I should get one once I buy a hot tub. Based on your posts, I trust your opinions. Also, after reading here and other places, I have decided to wait and save a few more $$ and buy a higher end tub. Thanks all.

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Is ozone necessary? No.

Is it a good idea? Obviously differing opinions exist on that. I don't see the advantage. You can't test the levels of ozone (at least the average spa owner can't), and for that matter don't even really know if the unit is working or not. You really can't rely on the ozone for anything, so what's the point? If I'm going to be away for a week, the bromine floater will keep things fine. I have cd ozone because it came with the spa, but won't replace it when it dies... assuming I can even tell. Bromine and/or chlorine in quantities needed for a spa are pretty cheap.

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Also I might point out that the CDC has determined that you can not prevent swimmers lung in a pool or spa that is PROPERLY maintained with chlorine, which is exactly why they are turning to ozone as a secondary sanitizer.

I've been trying to find supporting information on the CDC website for statements such as the one you've made above, but I can't seem to find any. Can you please provide a link to this information?

Also, you never responded after I provided the extensive references showing that ozone reacts with both chlorine and bromine so I'm unclear as to where you now stand on this issue.

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