What Type Of Algecide Does Salt Water Pool Use?

[waterbear]

First and most important, YOU STILL HAVE A CHLORINE SYSTEM. Salt pools ARE chlorine pools, just the source of chlorine is being made in the pool and not being added. You might still have a use for a lot of your old chemicals. Why don't you list what you have so we can tell you if you need it or not.

Second, don't worry about phosphates. They are only one factor in algae growth and phosphate removes are a big money maker for pool stores and a big wallet drainer for you. They are not needed about 99.9% of the time.

Third, remember that pool supply stores are in business to sell you chemicals. They want to sell you as much as they can each time you go in. This is their "bottom line" If you are aware of this when you go in you will not get taken. You do not need most of what they are trying to sell you. You don't need algaecide, clarifiers, defoamers, enzymes, phosphate removers, etc. in the very vast majority of cases. Also, once you learn what the actual chemicals are that you are putting in your pool you will stop buying expensive baking soda at the pool store that is labeled as TA increaser and start buying the more pure and less expensive baking soda sold at the grocery store. There are many pool chemicals that you can get at the grocery or hardware store, BTW!

TA increaser=sodium bicarbonate=sodium hydrogen carbonate=baking soda

pH increaser= sodium carbonate=soda ash=Arm and Hammer Super Washing Soda (in the laundry aisle)

sodium hypochlorite=liquid pool chlorine= unscented chlorine laundry bleach

commercial borate products =sodium tetraborate=20 Mule Team Borax (in the laundry aisle)

Muriatic acid can be found in most hardware stores and many big box stores, compare prices. Sometimes the pool supply has the best price. Ditto for liquid chlorine. If it is sold in your area in pool stores it is sometimes a better buy than bleach from the grocery. If liquid chlorine is not sold in your area than use the bleach. If you ever need to shock your pool it's better to add bleach then to turn the system on superchorinate.

Fourth, CYA does not fluctuate or "swing" but testing can be imprecise. Get your own test kit, test it yourself, and believe your readings. You are are going to be more precise than the pool store. I am glad you ordered the K-2006. You will be amazed at how easy it makes your water testing.

Fifth, do not worry about the brown staining right now. If ascorbic acid removed it easily then it's most likely iron and it's fairly easy to remove. Get a handle on basic water testing and pool maintenance with your new salt system then tackle the stains. The only things the stains affect is the look of the pool. It's best to deal with them when the weather turn cold anyway or you risk a bad algae bloom!

Sixth, You calcium hardness is too low if you have either a plaster or fiberglass pool. In a plaster pool the water will be aggressive to the plaster finish if the calcium is too low. In a fiberglass pool there is some evidence that there can be increased propensity to staining and cobalt spotting.

Seventh, the TA, while perfect for the use of trichlor tabs, is too high for an unstabilized chlorine source such as your new salt system. You will want to lower it to around 70 ppm (and then raise the calcium hardness to maintain water balance).

Once your test kit comes we can get started balancing your pool and we will deal with the stains either right before closing or right after opening when the weather is still cold.

Just got kit yesterday but had several trees down due to nearby strong winds here in Nashville and electric was out 2 days and need to attend to it first. I will read that and then test the water.. released about 40% and refilled. Water much clearer now.. just some simple test from natural chemistry showed strong amt of phospate [deep blue water]. I am going to let the new water circulate for 24 hr first and go from there. Thanks everyone. BTW I acgtually use Walmart Bleach and 10lbs bag baking soda from walmart before I went with the SWG... SG seems tough... at least for me for now.

do not worry about phosphates...they are NOT a problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Once you get a set of test results we will take it from there. If you have any questions about the test kit please post them and we can help you out.

[pectin]

First and most important, YOU STILL HAVE A CHLORINE SYSTEM. Salt pools ARE chlorine pools, just the source of chlorine is being made in the pool and not being added. You might still have a use for a lot of your old chemicals. Why don't you list what you have so we can tell you if you need it or not.

Second, don't worry about phosphates. They are only one factor in algae growth and phosphate removes are a big money maker for pool stores and a big wallet drainer for you. They are not needed about 99.9% of the time.

Third, remember that pool supply stores are in business to sell you chemicals. They want to sell you as much as they can each time you go in. This is their "bottom line" If you are aware of this when you go in you will not get taken. You do not need most of what they are trying to sell you. You don't need algaecide, clarifiers, defoamers, enzymes, phosphate removers, etc. in the very vast majority of cases. Also, once you learn what the actual chemicals are that you are putting in your pool you will stop buying expensive baking soda at the pool store that is labeled as TA increaser and start buying the more pure and less expensive baking soda sold at the grocery store. There are many pool chemicals that you can get at the grocery or hardware store, BTW!

TA increaser=sodium bicarbonate=sodium hydrogen carbonate=baking soda

pH increaser= sodium carbonate=soda ash=Arm and Hammer Super Washing Soda (in the laundry aisle)

sodium hypochlorite=liquid pool chlorine= unscented chlorine laundry bleach

commercial borate products =sodium tetraborate=20 Mule Team Borax (in the laundry aisle)

Muriatic acid can be found in most hardware stores and many big box stores, compare prices. Sometimes the pool supply has the best price. Ditto for liquid chlorine. If it is sold in your area in pool stores it is sometimes a better buy than bleach from the grocery. If liquid chlorine is not sold in your area than use the bleach. If you ever need to shock your pool it's better to add bleach then to turn the system on superchorinate.

Fourth, CYA does not fluctuate or "swing" but testing can be imprecise. Get your own test kit, test it yourself, and believe your readings. You are are going to be more precise than the pool store. I am glad you ordered the K-2006. You will be amazed at how easy it makes your water testing.

Fifth, do not worry about the brown staining right now. If ascorbic acid removed it easily then it's most likely iron and it's fairly easy to remove. Get a handle on basic water testing and pool maintenance with your new salt system then tackle the stains. The only things the stains affect is the look of the pool. It's best to deal with them when the weather turn cold anyway or you risk a bad algae bloom!

Sixth, You calcium hardness is too low if you have either a plaster or fiberglass pool. In a plaster pool the water will be aggressive to the plaster finish if the calcium is too low. In a fiberglass pool there is some evidence that there can be increased propensity to staining and cobalt spotting.

Seventh, the TA, while perfect for the use of trichlor tabs, is too high for an unstabilized chlorine source such as your new salt system. You will want to lower it to around 70 ppm (and then raise the calcium hardness to maintain water balance).

Once your test kit comes we can get started balancing your pool and we will deal with the stains either right before closing or right after opening when the weather is still cold.

Just got kit yesterday but had several trees down due to nearby strong winds here in Nashville and electric was out 2 days and need to attend to it first. I will read that and then test the water.. released about 40% and refilled. Water much clearer now.. just some simple test from natural chemistry showed strong amt of phospate [deep blue water]. I am going to let the new water circulate for 24 hr first and go from there. Thanks everyone. BTW I acgtually use Walmart Bleach and 10lbs bag baking soda from walmart before I went with the SWG... SG seems tough... at least for me for now.

do not worry about phosphates...they are NOT a problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Once you get a set of test results we will take it from there. If you have any questions about the test kit please post them and we can help you out.

Ok here goes guys.... these are the results but they may not be accurate as it is my first time

1. Combine Chlorine = 4

2. PPM = 6 (20 x 0.2) not sure what this is

3. PH = 7.3 [base Demand test 2 drops)

4. TA = 13 x 10 = 130

5. Calcium = 150

6. CYA = 70 I belive... the black dot kinda disappears I think..... with no visible black outlines.

Wow this test is really hard... maybe because my 10 yr old help me since I cannot see well... and she is also the same. Thanks so much. I might have missed something sorry if I did. BTW I have just a vinyl pool, 23000 gallons. Actually I added a bag of salt and it was too much and added water and forgot all about it and lowered water down and now it is at 3000 instead of 4400. I was hoping to get a 3200. Should I add like 10lbs of salt then as I think it is too low... at 3000 and maybe it might drop to 2900.

[waterbear]

Ok here goes guys.... these are the results but they may not be accurate as it is my first time

1. Combine Chlorine = 4

2. PPM = 6 (20 x 0.2) not sure what this is

3. PH = 7.3 [base Demand test 2 drops)

4. TA = 13 x 10 = 130

5. Calcium = 150

6. CYA = 70 I belive... the black dot kinda disappears I think..... with no visible black outlines.

Wow this test is really hard... maybe because my 10 yr old help me since I cannot see well... and she is also the same.

If you mean the CYA test it is the most difficult but it will get much easier each time you do it. I have found doing this test outside in open shade works well and the pH test I read against a northern sky.

Thanks so much. I might have missed something sorry if I did. BTW I have just a vinyl pool, 23000 gallons. Actually I added a bag of salt and it was too much and added water and forgot all about it and lowered water down and now it is at 3000 instead of 4400. I was hoping to get a 3200. Should I add like 10lbs of salt then as I think it is too low... at 3000 and maybe it might drop to 2900.

Ok, you need to learn how to use this test kit.

Let's start with the chlorine test. Don't use a 25 ml sample, use a 10 ml sample for this test.

Add two scoops of DPD powder and swirl. The sample will turn pink

Now add the R-871 one drop at a time and swirl after each drop until the color changes from pink to colorless.

Multiply the number of drops by .5 to get the ppm FC reading

For example, it takes 8 drops for the sample to turn colorless . 8 x .5 = 4 ppm FC

Now add 5 drops of reagent R-0003 to same sample you just tested. If the sample turns pink again you have combined chlorine. Add R-081 drop by drop again just like before until it turns colorless again. Mutiply the number of drops by .5 again and get the CC

For example, you add the 5 drops of R-0003 and the sameple turns pink again. You need 3 drops for it to turn colorless. 3 x .5 - 1.5 ppm CC.

You really should never need to use a 25 ml sample for the chlorine tests (where each drop is .2 ppm chlorine) since you really do not need that much precision. The .5 ppm precision that the 10 ml sample gives you is more than enough. IF you do decide to test with a 25 ml sample the test is done exactly the same way but you multiply the number of drops needed to turn from pink to colorless in each step by .2 instead of .5. While this gives more precision (that you really don't need) it uses up the reagents much faster.

The pH test is just read right from the comparator. Post that results and I will explain how to use the acid and base demand tests after. They are used to determine how much acid or soda ash (or borax for that matter) you need to move the current pH to a desired pH. Right now we just need the current pH.

Your TA is too high for a salt pool so I would recommend reading the pinned topic on how to lower TA. It sounds more complicated than it is but once you get the TA in line your pH will become more stable.

Your calcium is fine for a vinyl pool (I assume it took 15 drops to change to blue?)

Your CYA is ok for right now

Your salt is OK for right now.

We need to get accurate chlorine and pH readings first and can then move on to the next step

How many hours a day are you running the pump and what is the output percentage your generator is set on?

I would suggest using the Pool Calculator for determining how much salt you need to add in the future.

[pectin]

Ok here goes guys.... these are the results but they may not be accurate as it is my first time

1. Free Chlorine = 4

2. Combine Chlorine of R871 = 1 drop.... is that too low? The water become very very light pink only so do regard this as pink/ red otherwise I also did another where I added 15 drops or so but that did not change much....??

3. PPM = 6 (20 x 0.2) not sure what this is

4. PH = 7.3 [base Demand test 2 drops)

5. TA = 13 x 10 = 130

6. Calcium = 150

7. CYA = 70 I belive... the black dot kinda disappears I think..... with no visible black outlines.

Wow this test is really hard... maybe because my 10 yr old help me since I cannot see well... and she is also the same.

If you mean the CYA test it is the most difficult but it will get much easier each time you do it. I have found doing this test outside in open shade works well and the pH test I read against a northern sky.

Thanks so much. I might have missed something sorry if I did. BTW I have just a vinyl pool, 23000 gallons. Actually I added a bag of salt and it was too much and added water and forgot all about it and lowered water down and now it is at 3000 instead of 4400. I was hoping to get a 3200. Should I add like 10lbs of salt then as I think it is too low... at 3000 and maybe it might drop to 2900.

Ok, you need to learn how to use this test kit.

Let's start with the chlorine test. Don't use a 25 ml sample, use a 10 ml sample for this test.

Add two scoops of DPD powder and swirl. The sample will turn pink

Now add the R-871 one drop at a time and swirl after each drop until the color changes from pink to colorless.

Multiply the number of drops by .5 to get the ppm FC reading

For example, it takes 8 drops for the sample to turn colorless . 8 x .5 = 4 ppm FC

Now add 5 drops of reagent R-0003 to same sample you just tested. If the sample turns pink again you have combined chlorine. Add R-081 drop by drop again just like before until it turns colorless again. Mutiply the number of drops by .5 again and get the CC

For example, you add the 5 drops of R-0003 and the sameple turns pink again. You need 3 drops for it to turn colorless. 3 x .5 - 1.5 ppm CC.

You really should never need to use a 25 ml sample for the chlorine tests (where each drop is .2 ppm chlorine) since you really do not need that much precision. The .5 ppm precision that the 10 ml sample gives you is more than enough. IF you do decide to test with a 25 ml sample the test is done exactly the same way but you multiply the number of drops needed to turn from pink to colorless in each step by .2 instead of .5. While this gives more precision (that you really don't need) it uses up the reagents much faster.

The pH test is just read right from the comparator. Post that results and I will explain how to use the acid and base demand tests after. They are used to determine how much acid or soda ash (or borax for that matter) you need to move the current pH to a desired pH. Right now we just need the current pH.

Your TA is too high for a salt pool so I would recommend reading the pinned topic on how to lower TA. It sounds more complicated than it is but once you get the TA in line your pH will become more stable.

Your calcium is fine for a vinyl pool (I assume it took 15 drops to change to blue?)

Your CYA is ok for right now

Your salt is OK for right now.

We need to get accurate chlorine and pH readings first and can then move on to the next step

How many hours a day are you running the pump and what is the output percentage your generator is set on?

I would suggest using the Pool Calculator for determining how much salt you need to add in the future.

5/31/2011

Free Chlorine PPM 6.5

PH Test between 7.6-7.8

Total Alkalinity 11 Drops needed to become pink/ Red

11 x 10 = 110

Calcium 6 x 25 = 150

CYA 80

Pool has brownish stain.

Salt is at 3000 at 60% output.

Do I add or remove anything? Thanks I have started to drop water... so far about 6 inches now... and will do till about 12 inches before I refill. Is that ok?

[waterbear]

5/31/2011

Free Chlorine PPM 6.5

A bit high...either lower the generator output a bit or shorten your pump run time a bit. You want to have a FC of 4-5 ppm

PH Test between 7.6-7.8

perfect

Total Alkalinity 11 Drops needed to become pink/ Red

11 x 10 = 110

Too high, your pH will rise too fast and you will be adding acid very often until you lower this. Shoot for about 70 ppm. If you haven't read the thread on lowering TA that I linked to before read it now.

Calcium 6 x 25 = 150

Fine for a vinyl pool, leave it alone

CYA 80

Perfect

Pool has brownish stain.

Don't worry about them until the water is stabilized and balanced, then we will worry about them.

Salt is at 3000 at 60% output.

Salt is fine for now but your output is too high because your FC is too high as I said above.

Do I add or remove anything?

Just start lowering your TA and adjust the FC as I said above.

Thanks I have started to drop water... so far about 6 inches now... and will do till about 12 inches before I refill. Is that ok?

Your CYA is perfect now, why are you removing water?

[samuel]

What type of algecide does Salt Water Pool use?.. can those from Aqua Chem works like those 20% Algecide? Suggestions? For Green dust type or black dust type of Algae..... I also experience brownish staining on pool plastic... I had not long ago used Stain Free tpo remove the stains probably like 2 weeks ago. It cleared out the brown stains but I think they are now back... I use Culator to remove the metal which I thought it was working but I guess it did not. What can I do next? I just changed to a Salt Water System just 2 weeks ago. The water was clear and clean... maybe because my InLine Chlorine feeder was still using the chlorine in there. Yes I believe there might be metals but I thought using Culator would removed it so I got 2 of them... but at the same times I use Stain Free and it cleared up the stains well making it nice again. The water then got very cloudy [using sand filter with sand agout 4 years old]. We have a winter cover and a robotic cleaner which we use often.. and skimmer cloth to capture further debris. I used Super Chlorination and that is making the FC and TC come back up again but it is still low and that is when I notice some plastic parts becoming brownish. Can Jack Magic be used better than Stain Free?

Every pool needs an algecide your main concern with a salt system is not using and algecide that contains copper. Also keep in mind that to do anything more than preventing algae growth you need to use at least an algecide 50 . Also with your metal issue most of these products will only sequesture the metals which will keep them from ending up back on your walls but will not remove them. Keep in mind as well that with a salt system your Ph is going to tend to drift up due to an extra hydrogen atom that we have when using salt, make sure you are using a liquid Ph reducer such as muriatic acid it is much better on your cell than dry acid and also on a final note your chloronator should not have caused any problems due to the fact your salt cell is making chlorine. Just remember to make sure your cell is making plenty of chlorine on these warmer days because you still may need a manual shock treatment periodically.

[chem geek]

Every pool needs an algecide your main concern with a salt system is not using and algecide that contains copper.

This is not true, unless you meant that chlorine can be that algaecide. Chlorine alone can prevent algae growth, but the Free Chlorine (FC) level needs to be high enough relative to the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level -- roughly an FC that is 5% of the CYA level for saltwater chlorine generator pools and roughly an FC that is 7.5% of the CYA level for manually dosed pools.

[samuel]

Every pool needs an algecide your main concern with a salt system is not using and algecide that contains copper.

This is not true, unless you meant that chlorine can be that algaecide. Chlorine alone can prevent algae growth, but the Free Chlorine (FC) level needs to be high enough relative to the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level -- roughly an FC that is 5% of the CYA level for saltwater chlorine generator pools and roughly an FC that is 7.5% of the CYA level for manually dosed pools.

Yes, I should have worded it could use and algecide as extra preventative just in case they run out of chlorine, which is where most run into problems after a solid rain or with these warmer temps.

[pectin]

5/31/2011

Free Chlorine PPM 6.5

A bit high...either lower the generator output a bit or shorten your pump run time a bit. You want to have a FC of 4-5 ppm

PH Test between 7.6-7.8

perfect

Total Alkalinity 11 Drops needed to become pink/ Red

11 x 10 = 110

Too high, your pH will rise too fast and you will be adding acid very often until you lower this. Shoot for about 70 ppm. If you haven't read the thread on lowering TA that I linked to before read it now.

Calcium 6 x 25 = 150

Fine for a vinyl pool, leave it alone

CYA 80

Perfect

Pool has brownish stain.

Don't worry about them until the water is stabilized and balanced, then we will worry about them.

Salt is at 3000 at 60% output.

Salt is fine for now but your output is too high because your FC is too high as I said above.

Do I add or remove anything?

Just start lowering your TA and adjust the FC as I said above.

Thanks I have started to drop water... so far about 6 inches now... and will do till about 12 inches before I refill. Is that ok?

Your CYA is perfect now, why are you removing water?

I thought the CYA was too high so I lowered about 6 inches or less yesterday night... now the Salt output is at 2600-2700... and output between 40-50% generation. Should I add Salt like 10 lbs out of that 40lbs bag or anything? Thanks Waterbear and everyone else. I thought CYA was supposed to be between 30-60 and 80 was high... my bad if it was incorrect. Does anyone know if Jack Magic's Purple Stuff can remove the brownish stain/ tea stain type on all sides and bottom of the Vinyl pool?

[waterbear]

I thought the CYA was too high so I lowered about 6 inches or less yesterday night... now the Salt output is at 2600-2700... and output between 40-50% generation.

As I said in the 5th post in this thread:

However, first thing to do is get your water balanced. Here are numbers that will work well for a salt pool using a Goldline generator:

FC 4-5 ppm

CC should stay below .5 ppm. If it is higher then shock with bleach, not superchlorinate. It works better.

pH between 7-6-7.8

TA 70-80 ppm and not higher

CH 350 ppm up to 450 ppm, lower end of range is better if possible (STRIPS DO NOT TEST CALCIUM HARDNESS, THEY TEST TOTAL HARDNESS. GET A GOOD TEST KIT LIKE A TAYLOR K-2006!)This is for a plaster or fiberglass pool, your calcium hardness is fine where it is for a vinyl pool!

CYA 80 ppm. Too low and you will have pH stability problems (technical explanation). Too high and you will get algae outbreaks. (Your Goldline manual also states that CYA should be at 80 ppm. If you have not read the manual read it now so you know how to care for your salt system and do basic maintenance such as cell cleaning. Don't go by all the water balance parameters they give. The ones here will give you better pH stability and NO problems with nacesent algae!)

Salt beween 3000 and 3400 ppm. 3200 is ideal, bump it back up when it drops to 3000.

Remember you will lose some salt and CYA with each backwash so test these levels at least montly and adjust

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED is adding borates to 50 ppm using either a commercial borate product such as Proteam Supreme, Bioguard Optimizer, Guardex Maximizer, PoolLife Endure, or by using borax and muriatic acid or by using boric acid. Test the borate levels with LaMotte borate test strips, they are the easiest to read!

Borates will:

help stabilize pH

help prevent algae outbreaks and reduce chlorine demand

make the water "feel" better

make the water "sparkle"

Once we get your water balance in line we can tackle your stain problem, right now it is not hurting anything. Use the Pool Calculator to figure out how much salt you need to add (hint: IF your pool really is 23000 gal like you said previously then you need just under 3 40lb bags of salt to bring it up to about 3200 ppm. However, when I calculate a 16x18 rectangular pool with an average depth of 6 feet (4foot to 8 foot) I only get 13000 gallons!!!!! I would put in one bag and see where the salt comes to just in case your pool is a bit smaller than you think. You will probably need around 1 1/2 bags in all if your pool is 13000 gallons)

Should I add Salt like 10 lbs out of that 40lbs bag or anything?

You need to start using the pool calculator so you know how much you need to put in. The test kit tells you what you need, and when you need it, the pool calculator will tell you how much you need. They are your pool's best friends!

Thanks Waterbear and everyone else. I thought CYA was supposed to be between 30-60 and 80 was high... my bad if it was incorrect.

30-50ppm is the recommended range for manually chlorinated pools unless you are in a tropical or arrid area and the pool gets a LOT of sun. Then a slightly higher level is advantageous. However, salt pools generally work best at higher CYA levels for several reason that are a bit technical so I am not going into them here but the end result is better pH stability, less acid needed, and longer cell life.

Does anyone know if Jack Magic's Purple Stuff can remove the brownish stain/ tea stain type on all sides and bottom of the Vinyl pool?

GET YOUR WATER BALANCED BEFORE WORRYING ABOUT THE STAINS!

GET YOUR WATER BALANCED BEFORE WORRYING ABOUT THE STAINS!

GET YOUR WATER BALANCED BEFORE WORRYING ABOUT THE STAINS!

We will tackle the stains later. They are most likely iron but until you get your water balanced they are NOT important.

Get your CYA, Salt, and FC in line. Go ahead and drop you pH to 7.0 (BUT NOT ANY LOWER!). It will climb up on it's own in a few days to a week but will start to bring your TA down. When it climb up to 7.6 test your TA and if still too hgh lower the pH to 7.0 again (the acid demand test and the chart in the back of your booklet that came with your test kit will tell you how much acid you need...measure it out and don't 'guestimate'!) It will also help remove some of the stains for now but they might come back as the pH rises.

Work on this for right now and we will take the next step once your salt, CYA, and FC is in line.

[pectin]

I thought the CYA was too high so I lowered about 6 inches or less yesterday night... now the Salt output is at 2600-2700... and output between 40-50% generation.

As I said in the 5th post in this thread:

However, first thing to do is get your water balanced. Here are numbers that will work well for a salt pool using a Goldline generator:

FC 4-5 ppm

CC should stay below .5 ppm. If it is higher then shock with bleach, not superchlorinate. It works better.

pH between 7-6-7.8

TA 70-80 ppm and not higher

CH 350 ppm up to 450 ppm, lower end of range is better if possible (STRIPS DO NOT TEST CALCIUM HARDNESS, THEY TEST TOTAL HARDNESS. GET A GOOD TEST KIT LIKE A TAYLOR K-2006!)This is for a plaster or fiberglass pool, your calcium hardness is fine where it is for a vinyl pool!

CYA 80 ppm. Too low and you will have pH stability problems (technical explanation). Too high and you will get algae outbreaks. (Your Goldline manual also states that CYA should be at 80 ppm. If you have not read the manual read it now so you know how to care for your salt system and do basic maintenance such as cell cleaning. Don't go by all the water balance parameters they give. The ones here will give you better pH stability and NO problems with nacesent algae!)

Salt beween 3000 and 3400 ppm. 3200 is ideal, bump it back up when it drops to 3000.

Remember you will lose some salt and CYA with each backwash so test these levels at least montly and adjust

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED is adding borates to 50 ppm using either a commercial borate product such as Proteam Supreme, Bioguard Optimizer, Guardex Maximizer, PoolLife Endure, or by using borax and muriatic acid or by using boric acid. Test the borate levels with LaMotte borate test strips, they are the easiest to read!

Borates will:

help stabilize pH

help prevent algae outbreaks and reduce chlorine demand

make the water "feel" better

make the water "sparkle"

Once we get your water balance in line we can tackle your stain problem, right now it is not hurting anything. Use the Pool Calculator to figure out how much salt you need to add (hint: IF your pool really is 23000 gal like you said previously then you need just under 3 40lb bags of salt to bring it up to about 3200 ppm. However, when I calculate a 16x18 rectangular pool with an average depth of 6 feet (4foot to 8 foot) I only get 13000 gallons!!!!! I would put in one bag and see where the salt comes to just in case your pool is a bit smaller than you think. You will probably need around 1 1/2 bags in all if your pool is 13000 gallons)

Should I add Salt like 10 lbs out of that 40lbs bag or anything?

You need to start using the pool calculator so you know how much you need to put in. The test kit tells you what you need, and when you need it, the pool calculator will tell you how much you need. They are your pool's best friends!

Thanks Waterbear and everyone else. I thought CYA was supposed to be between 30-60 and 80 was high... my bad if it was incorrect.

30-50ppm is the recommended range for manually chlorinated pools unless you are in a tropical or arrid area and the pool gets a LOT of sun. Then a slightly higher level is advantageous. However, salt pools generally work best at higher CYA levels for several reason that are a bit technical so I am not going into them here but the end result is better pH stability, less acid needed, and longer cell life.

Does anyone know if Jack Magic's Purple Stuff can remove the brownish stain/ tea stain type on all sides and bottom of the Vinyl pool?

GET YOUR WATER BALANCED BEFORE WORRYING ABOUT THE STAINS!

GET YOUR WATER BALANCED BEFORE WORRYING ABOUT THE STAINS!

GET YOUR WATER BALANCED BEFORE WORRYING ABOUT THE STAINS!

We will tackle the stains later. They are most likely iron but until you get your water balanced they are NOT important.

Get your CYA, Salt, and FC in line. Go ahead and drop you pH to 7.0 (BUT NOT ANY LOWER!). It will climb up on it's own in a few days to a week but will start to bring your TA down. When it climb up to 7.6 test your TA and if still too hgh lower the pH to 7.0 again (the acid demand test and the chart in the back of your booklet that came with your test kit will tell you how much acid you need...measure it out and don't 'guestimate'!) It will also help remove some of the stains for now but they might come back as the pH rises.

Work on this for right now and we will take the next step once your salt, CYA, and FC is in line.

It is 16 x 32ft. Avg of 6 ft. I guess I am going to be out of balance again... I will probably try to get some salt in later on.. I guess this year has been a lot of mistakes here and there../... I am getting there. For CYA I am a little unsure. Do I add it till the BLACK DOT being covered by the cloudy water which means I cannot see any outlines or must the outlines also be totally Gone?? The Combine Chlorine... when adding the Drops it becomes only very very slightly reddish/ pink. Is that correct? Then ...I would add another different drop to make it colorless again... I know these are very small factors but just want to make sure I did it right. Is that the right way for Combine chlorine? How do I read the circular blue chart that came with the kit?

[waterbear]

It is 16 x 32ft. Avg of 6 ft.

That would be about 23000 gal.

I guess I am going to be out of balance again... I will probably try to get some salt in later on..

Get the salt in FIRST. The unit will not generate chlorine with a low salt condition and you will also shorten the cell life. Low salt cut off is right around where you are right now (2500-2600 ppm).

I guess this year has been a lot of mistakes here and there../... I am getting there.

Yes, you are!

For CYA I am a little unsure. Do I add it till the BLACK DOT being covered by the cloudy water which means I cannot see any outlines or must the outlines also be totally Gone??

This link to the Taylor Technologies website has pictures of what the test should look like...black dot not visible!

The Combine Chlorine... when adding the Drops it becomes only very very slightly reddish/ pink. Is that correct?

Yes, if you don't have a lot of combined chlorine. Ideally it should not turn pink again at all meaning no combined chlorine!

Then ...I would add another different drop to make it colorless again... I know these are very small factors but just want to make sure I did it right. Is that the right way for Combine chlorine?

Correct!

How do I read the circular blue chart that came with the kit?

Don't worry about it. The pool calculator website I gave you before does the same thing automatically when you fill everything in! You don't need the circular calculator with a vinyl pool anyway. It is for calculating saturation index which is only important for plaster and fiberglass pools.

[pectin]

It is 16 x 32ft. Avg of 6 ft.

That would be about 23000 gal.

I guess I am going to be out of balance again... I will probably try to get some salt in later on..

Get the salt in FIRST. The unit will not generate chlorine with a low salt condition and you will also shorten the cell life. Low salt cut off is right around where you are right now (2500-2600 ppm).

I guess this year has been a lot of mistakes here and there../... I am getting there.

Yes, you are!

For CYA I am a little unsure. Do I add it till the BLACK DOT being covered by the cloudy water which means I cannot see any outlines or must the outlines also be totally Gone??

This link to the Taylor Technologies website has pictures of what the test should look like...black dot not visible!

The Combine Chlorine... when adding the Drops it becomes only very very slightly reddish/ pink. Is that correct?

Yes, if you don't have a lot of combined chlorine. Ideally it should not turn pink again at all meaning no combined chlorine!

Then ...I would add another different drop to make it colorless again... I know these are very small factors but just want to make sure I did it right. Is that the right way for Combine chlorine?

Correct!

How do I read the circular blue chart that came with the kit?

Don't worry about it. The pool calculator website I gave you before does the same thing automatically when you fill everything in! You don't need the circular calculator with a vinyl pool anyway. It is for calculating saturation index which is only important for plaster and fiberglass pools.

Do I add 1 40 lbs bag... reading is 2700 now.I think +- about a bag should be ok. lmk. Thanks

[waterbear]

Do I add 1 40 lbs bag... reading is 2700 now.I think +- about a bag should be ok. lmk. Thanks

As I said before, go to the Pool Calculator website that I have linked to somewhere above, bookmark it, and use it for figuring out your dosing!

[pectin]

Do I add 1 40 lbs bag... reading is 2700 now.I think +- about a bag should be ok. lmk. Thanks

As I said before, go to the Pool Calculator website that I have linked to somewhere above, bookmark it, and use it for figuring out your dosing!

Pool Chemistry is slowing coming back but still a little off. Just wondering why when I turn off the pump and then turn it back on a few hrs later.. the jets blow some pretty cloudy water with very microscopic air bubbles as well as cloudy water. It is not a lot but clears up like 30-40 mins later. A week or 2 ago I added that instant conditioner. Is that the leftovers? I thought doing all those water lowering and adding of water removed that and changing the sand in the filter? My CYA is now a little high at 100 I believe. Should I just let it run for a few more days before doing anything? Water is no way clearer... strangely the stains are there but less by more than 50+ or 60% now.. still there are some slightly brownish stains. I did not add anything so far till date except the 1 bag of salt... now at 2800+ reading.

[waterbear]

Bubbles are most likely hydrogen and entirely normal with a salt system. Get the salt up to 3200, let the CYA stay where it is (it will come down as you do backwashes) and adjust your cell output and/or pump run time to maintain your FC at 5 ppm.

[jkusmier]

pectin, after reading this thread I sense some communication breakdowns. My best advice would be to check the forum for waterbear's latest response before doing anything to your pool. Once you get things squared away all of this will become a distant memory and a great learning experience. I didn't know squat about pool water chemistry when our pool was installed in Sep 2007. Let waterbear guide you - thanks to what I've learned from him, chem geek and others here, my water has essentially been crystal clear and very stable for the past 3 seasons - from opening to closing. Take heart and don't give up - it's still pretty early in the season and all your pool problems will be over soon enough.

[pectin]

Currently at:

FC 4.5

CC 0.5

PH 7.4

TA 110

Calcium 175

CYA 80

The water seems ok but when using googles underwater it looks quite blur. Googles are new. Any ideas why? I did not had this problem when the pool was using just regular chlorine. This is the first time I have experience this sort of problem/

[waterbear]

Currently at:

FC 4.5

CC 0.5

What is your cell output and how many hours a day of pump run time? Your CC is right at the border of acceptable but if the pool is not clear then there is probably a nascent algae bloom. Let's make sure your FC is stable at this level for a week before doing any other adjustments. Just monitor your pH and work on lowering the TA to around 70-80 ppm

PH 7.4

TA 110

Calcium 175

CYA 80

Cacium and CYA are fine where they are right now.

The water seems ok but when using googles underwater it looks quite blur. Googles are new. Any ideas why?

How good are the goggles? Do they have optical quality lenses in them or just cheap plastic?

I did not had this problem when the pool was using just regular chlorine.

You are still using regular chlorine, sodium hypochlorite to be exact. A salt pool IS a chlorine pool. If there is a clarity problem then there is a water balance or filtration issue.

This is the first time I have experience this sort of problem/

Were you using the same goggles before or are they different? I would suspect the goggles first!

[pectin]

Currently at:

FC 4.5

CC 0.5

What is your cell output and how many hours a day of pump run time? Your CC is right at the border of acceptable but if the pool is not clear then there is probably a nascent algae bloom. Let's make sure your FC is stable at this level for a week before doing any other adjustments. Just monitor your pH and work on lowering the TA to around 70-80 ppm

PH 7.4

TA 110

Calcium 175

CYA 80

Cacium and CYA are fine where they are right now.

The water seems ok but when using googles underwater it looks quite blur. Googles are new. Any ideas why?

How good are the goggles? Do they have optical quality lenses in them or just cheap plastic?

I did not had this problem when the pool was using just regular chlorine.

You are still using regular chlorine, sodium hypochlorite to be exact. A salt pool IS a chlorine pool. If there is a clarity problem then there is a water balance or filtration issue.

This is the first time I have experience this sort of problem/

Were you using the same goggles before or are they different? I would suspect the goggles first!

Cell Ouput at 40-50%

Salt at 3100 now.. dropped 200 within 3 days [there was heavy rain and high heat] No backwashing was done.

Googles are very good pro version. Used for scuba diving optical carl zeiss prescription ones

No I am not using any regular chlorine or sodium hypochlorite only the SWGS. It is strange when I go into the water... it tasted not too salty but when I put my head into water... the water seems 'wavy' like.. those images you see when being in a desert and the wind blows and u see the heat wave then... similar to that. It is strange at least for me. Anyone knows that? I will monitor your pH and work on lowering the TA to around 70-80 ppm.... Thanks

[waterbear]

Cell Ouput at 40-50%

How many hours a day is your pump timeclock set for? (Your pump IS on a timeclock, right? The SWCG needs to be running for the same number of nours every day to keep your pool properly chlorinated. If it is not I would invest in a timeclock and install it right now! Otherwise you really cannot regulate the FC level in the pool and it will never stabilize, which is the main advanage of a SWCG, stable chlorine readings once it is set up.

Your FC level is a function of how many hours a day your pump runs times the percentage of pump run time. Cell output of 40-50% means that for 40-50% of your pump run time the cell is turned on. Unless they have changed it Goldline units run on a 100 minute cycle so that means for every 100 minutes your pump is running the cell is turned on for 40-50 of those and generating chlorine and turned off for the remainder. It then turns on again for the next 100 minutes and repeats th3e cycle.

This is why you can adjust the FC in the pool by either adjusting cell output or pump run time.

Salt at 3100 now.. dropped 200 within 3 days [there was heavy rain and high heat] No backwashing was done.

Salt is fine, evaporation will bring it back up if there is no backwashing done. When salt drops to about 3000 ppm from backwashing and splash out it is time to bump it back up to 3200 again.

Ditto for CYA, when it drops to 70 ppm bump it up to 80 ppm again.

use the Pool Calculator to figure out how much you need to add. It's the easiest way! Just click on the link I provided and bookmark it so you can go back to it easily! Enter all your current readings in the left hand column and put your target readings in the right hand one and it will tell you how much and what you need to add. Remember to put the gallons and water temp in also. Since you have a vinyl pool you don't need to worry about CSI (calcium saturation index) or calcium hardness. I would just keep it somewhere between 100 and 400 ppm. Unless you are filling the pool with very solf water from a water softener the calcium should not drop lower than it is right now by much,

Googles are very good pro version. Used for scuba diving optical carl zeiss prescription ones

No I am not using any regular chlorine or sodium hypochlorite only the SWGS. It is strange when I go into the water... it tasted not too salty but when I put my head into water... the water seems 'wavy' like.. those images you see when being in a desert and the wind blows and u see the heat wave then... similar to that. It is strange at least for me. Anyone knows that? I will monitor your pH and work on lowering the TA to around 70-80 ppm.... Thanks

Might be a difference in the refraction of the water because of the salt. Once you get everything balanced you should consider adding borates to your water for better pH control and its algaestatic properties but let's concentrate on getting your water balanced and stable first.

Have you read the procedure for lowering TA?

[pectin]

Cell Ouput at 40-50%

How many hours a day is your pump timeclock set for? (Your pump IS on a timeclock, right? The SWCG needs to be running for the same number of nours every day to keep your pool properly chlorinated. If it is not I would invest in a timeclock and install it right now! Otherwise you really cannot regulate the FC level in the pool and it will never stabilize, which is the main advanage of a SWCG, stable chlorine readings once it is set up.

Your FC level is a function of how many hours a day your pump runs times the percentage of pump run time. Cell output of 40-50% means that for 40-50% of your pump run time the cell is turned on. Unless they have changed it Goldline units run on a 100 minute cycle so that means for every 100 minutes your pump is running the cell is turned on for 40-50 of those and generating chlorine and turned off for the remainder. It then turns on again for the next 100 minutes and repeats th3e cycle.

This is why you can adjust the FC in the pool by either adjusting cell output or pump run time.

Salt at 3100 now.. dropped 200 within 3 days [there was heavy rain and high heat] No backwashing was done.

Salt is fine, evaporation will bring it back up if there is no backwashing done. When salt drops to about 3000 ppm from backwashing and splash out it is time to bump it back up to 3200 again.

Ditto for CYA, when it drops to 70 ppm bump it up to 80 ppm again.

use the Pool Calculator to figure out how much you need to add. It's the easiest way! Just click on the link I provided and bookmark it so you can go back to it easily! Enter all your current readings in the left hand column and put your target readings in the right hand one and it will tell you how much and what you need to add. Remember to put the gallons and water temp in also. Since you have a vinyl pool you don't need to worry about CSI (calcium saturation index) or calcium hardness. I would just keep it somewhere between 100 and 400 ppm. Unless you are filling the pool with very solf water from a water softener the calcium should not drop lower than it is right now by much,

Googles are very good pro version. Used for scuba diving optical carl zeiss prescription ones

No I am not using any regular chlorine or sodium hypochlorite only the SWGS. It is strange when I go into the water... it tasted not too salty but when I put my head into water... the water seems 'wavy' like.. those images you see when being in a desert and the wind blows and u see the heat wave then... similar to that. It is strange at least for me. Anyone knows that? I will monitor your pH and work on lowering the TA to around 70-80 ppm.... Thanks

Might be a difference in the refraction of the water because of the salt. Once you get everything balanced you should consider adding borates to your water for better pH control and its algaestatic properties but let's concentrate on getting your water balanced and stable first.

Have you read the procedure for lowering TA?

Yes I have thanks. I read that using powder vs liquid acid both have different advantages. What is the best. Granular Powder [sodium bisulfate] seems to work more slower to lower TA and more stable than liquid like muriatic acid. Considering the heat 92-98 degrees lately and violent rains... I am seriously not sure which works better.

[waterbear]

Yes I have thanks. I read that using powder vs liquid acid both have different advantages. What is the best. Granular Powder [sodium bisulfate] seems to work more slower to lower TA and more stable than liquid like muriatic acid. Considering the heat 92-98 degrees lately and violent rains... I am seriously not sure which works better.

Dry acid forms a weak sulfuric acid solution when dissolved. It is not as strong as muriatic acid and the only time I really recommend it is for a spa where the water volume is much smaller than a pool and an overdose of acid can be a big problem. The dry acid is easier to measure in small amounts.

From a cost persepctive muriatic acid is better. Also, because you have a salt pool muriatic acid is better becaue high levels of sulphates from continued use of dry acid can shorten cell life.

Use muriatic acid.

[chem geek]

It takes 25-1/2 fluid ounces of full-strength Muriatic Acid (31.45% Hydrochloric Acid) to lower the Total Alkalinity (TA) by 10 ppm in 10,000 gallons while it takes 34.4 ounces weight (about 23 ounces volume) of dry acid (93.2% sodium bisulfate) to do the same thing. So on a volume basis, they are roughly equally strong. The second acid dissociation constant which is what determines the acidity of bisulfate is a pKa of 1.99 so while technically not as strong as hydrochloric acid (-3, -4 or -7 depending on source), in practice it doesn't matter since in pools at any reasonable pH it is just as strong and does not contribute to TA which has a color transition in the test at a pH of 4.5.

The main reason not to use dry acid is that it builds up sulfates in the water. Higher sulfate levels along with chloride can accelerate stainless steel corrosion as well as possible deterioration of stone from magnesium sulfate recrystallization (see this post).

[pectin]

It takes 25-1/2 fluid ounces of full-strength Muriatic Acid (31.45% Hydrochloric Acid) to lower the Total Alkalinity (TA) by 10 ppm in 10,000 gallons while it takes 34.4 ounces weight (about 23 ounces volume) of dry acid (93.2% sodium bisulfate) to do the same thing. So on a volume basis, they are roughly equally strong. The second acid dissociation constant which is what determines the acidity of bisulfate is a pKa of 1.99 so while technically not as strong as hydrochloric acid (-3, -4 or -7 depending on source), in practice it doesn't matter since in pools at any reasonable pH it is just as strong and does not contribute to TA which whose transition in the test is at a pH of 4.5.

The main reason not to use dry acid is that it builds up sulfates in the water. Higher sulfate levels along with chloride can accelerate stainless steel corrosion as well as possible deterioration of stone from magnesium sulfate recrystallization (see this post).

Thanks a lot guys... now to find a good brand for Muriatic Acid.. there are so many. Any one that is good. How much do I need to add for a 23,000+ pool. Based on pool Calculator with an average depth of 6ft 18 x 32.... it says as 25,000+ and not 23,000 I wonder if my calculations was wrong... that is why the pool took a while to balance...

BTW it takes 25-1/2 fluid ounces of full-strength Muriatic Acid (31.45% Hydrochloric Acid) to lower the Total Alkalinity (TA) by 10 ppm in 10,000 gallons. So I need abouy 51 fluid olunces for my case +-... even though it is about 23-25000 gallons?