pectin Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 What type of algecide does Salt Water Pool use?.. can those from Aqua Chem works like those 20% Algecide? Suggestions? For Green dust type or black dust type of Algae..... I also experience brownish staining on pool plastic... I had not long ago used Stain Free tpo remove the stains probably like 2 weeks ago. It cleared out the brown stains but I think they are now back... I use Culator to remove the metal which I thought it was working but I guess it did not. What can I do next? I just changed to a Salt Water System just 2 weeks ago. The water was clear and clean... maybe because my InLine Chlorine feeder was still using the chlorine in there. Yes I believe there might be metals but I thought using Culator would removed it so I got 2 of them... but at the same times I use Stain Free and it cleared up the stains well making it nice again. The water then got very cloudy [using sand filter with sand agout 4 years old]. We have a winter cover and a robotic cleaner which we use often.. and skimmer cloth to capture further debris. I used Super Chlorination and that is making the FC and TC come back up again but it is still low and that is when I notice some plastic parts becoming brownish. Can Jack Magic be used better than Stain Free? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leafwrangler Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 You can use your algaecide, try a stronger one though like 30% remember to dilute, pour directly over affected area and Brush with Metal Algae Brush, HARD and for a while. Although, Go through the basic chems Also. I always test salt Manually, I never trust the Board reading. You need to be between 2600 ppm to 3600 ppm. You want to be Right @ 3200 ppm. I like to keep my salt pool Ph lvl's @ 7.2-7.4 and of course test your Cyanuric Acid lvl. You should also try using a Clarifier, I like to use Swim-Blue. And I would consider getting new sand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 A properly maintained salt pool should not need algaecide. You have a problem somewhere in your water chemistry. Post a full set of test results and we can help you. We need: FC TC or CC pH TA CH CYA (very important to know this!) The testing should NOT be done with strips (even if read in a strip reader). The BEST algacide is liquid chlorine or bleach. Second best a preventative is either polyquat 60 or 50 ppm borates in your water. What kind of Salt system do you have. Also, what kind of salt did you add to the water? Some fine crystal salts contain yellow prussiate of soda to prevent caking and that is an iron salt. It is found mostly in food grade salts (and some pool salts!). Plain solar salt (sold for water softeners) is your best choice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pectin Posted May 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 A properly maintained salt pool should not need algaecide. You have a problem somewhere in your water chemistry. Post a full set of test results and we can help you. We need: FC TC or CC pH TA CH CYA (very important to know this!) The testing should NOT be done with strips (even if read in a strip reader). The BEST algacide is liquid chlorine or bleach. Second best a preventative is either polyquat 60 or 50 ppm borates in your water. What kind of Salt system do you have. Also, what kind of salt did you add to the water? Some fine crystal salts contain yellow prussiate of soda to prevent caking and that is an iron salt. It is found mostly in food grade salts (and some pool salts!). Plain solar salt (sold for water softeners) is your best choice Pool Size 16 x 18 [23,]000 gallons 4-8 ft FC - 3 TC or CC - 3 pH --- 6.8- 7.0 TA ---- 100 CH------- Cyanuric Acid - 120 CYA (very important to know this!) - Not Sure These are estimates....I have: Aquarite SWG [about 3 weeks old] - up to 40,000 gallons Filter Sand System [sand is about 4 yrs old.... had not changed yet... should I? I see a few slimy brown slime like sort of fiber material when using the pool robot vac.. maybe should change? Using AquaChek test Opened pool about 4 weeks ago.. when still cold.. took about 5 days to clear up using Chlorine tabs 3 inch from Inthe swim and added 3 lbs of Stain Free as there were brown stains in pool and it cleared up..... then decided to go salt system -2 weeks ago... had it installed and put about 14 bags of fine salt from Leslie's Pool, and the Hayward Aquarite. I think the installer did not put the Instant Conditioner [3 gallons]... It went from 2700 to 3400 and then last week it went down to 32000 - 3100. Used Super Chlorinate but still at 31000-3200 after 48+ hrs with readings of above. It rained quite a bit here for a few days. Just today I added 2 gallons of Instant Conditoner [pool is somehow cloudy and now it is ok but I saw brown like stains.. not sure if it is metal stains or Algae?? I also added Algaecide 20% from Aqua Chem. I had put Culator metal Remover about 3 weeks ago and just yesterday I took the Packet out from the skimmer. I am not sure if I should have left it there in the skimmer. As they say leave it for 24 hrs and then remove it but I did not. Did the metal went back to the pool then? Anyway I put metal free [liquid from intheswim]. Please advise on what to do... Should I have changed the sand before I changed to Salt System? The installer used the salt from the Pool Company 'Leslie Salt' they were very fine type I thnk Things I used so far http://www.lesliespool.com/Home/Salt-Systems/Chemicals/16458.html http://www.lesliespool.com/Home/Pool-Chemicals/Pool-Adjusters/12306.html Algaecide - 1 bottle used http://www.aquachem.com/mp/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=d7c34a3e3581e110VgnVCM10000053d7010aRCRD&vgnextchannel=d7c34a3e3581e110VgnVCM10000053d7010aRCRD&vgnextfmt=default Can you recommend what type to get?? there are so many of them.. what about Jack Magic - Magenta Stuff or Purple stuff? I have order 1/2 doz of those on the way to solve this problem now.. http://search.intheswim.com/?q=algacide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Pool Size 16 x 18 [23,]000 gallons 4-8 ft FC - 3 This is too low, particularly with a CYA (cyanuric acid) 0f 120. 6-10 would stop the algae and you would not need algaecide TC or CC - 3 I assume this is a TC reading, you did not specify pH --- 6.8- 7.0 Too low but it will rise. You want to keep your pH between 7.6-7.8 in salt pool. TA ---- 100 Too high. You will have pH stability problems with a TA this high in a salt pool, shoot for around 70 ppm. CH------- This stands for calcium hardness. Do you know it? Cyanuric Acid - 120 CYA (very important to know this!) - Not Sure CYA is CYanuric Acid. Your is too high at 120 with a goldine unit. You want it at 80 ppm. This is why you have algae. You do not need algaecide. You either need to keep your FC higher than 3 ppm ( see above) or drain out some water and replace it to lower the CYA and DO NOT ADD ANY MORE INSTANST CONDITIONER...IT IS CYA!!!!!!!! These are estimates....I have: Aquarite SWG [about 3 weeks old] - up to 40,000 gallons Filter Sand System [sand is about 4 yrs old.... had not changed yet... should I? no, it should be good for another 3 or 4 years. I see a few slimy brown slime like sort of fiber material when using the pool robot vac.. maybe should change? It's called algae and it is because your FC is not being kept at a high enough level for your CYA. The higher the CYA the higher you need to keep the FC to compemsate...It's technical. Using AquaChek test Get a good test kit. I would recommend a Taylor K-2006...strips are useless! Opened pool about 4 weeks ago.. when still cold.. took about 5 days to clear up using Chlorine tabs 3 inch from Inthe swim These also add CYA! and added 3 lbs of Stain Free as there were brown stains in pool and it cleared up This is ascorbic acid and destroys chlorine! Brown stains are probably iron but you need to be careful about shocking because it will bring the stains back. However, first thing to do is get your water balanced. Here are numbers that will work well for a salt pool using a Goldline generator: FC 4-5 ppm CC should stay below .5 ppm. If it is higher then shock with bleach, not superchlorinate. It works better. pH between 7-6-7.8 TA 70-80 ppm and not higher CH 350 ppm up to 450 ppm, lower end of range is better if possible (STRIPS DO NOT TEST CALCIUM HARDNESS, THEY TEST TOTAL HARDNESS. GET A GOOD TEST KIT LIKE A TAYLOR K-2006!) CYA 80 ppm. Too low and you will have pH stability problems (technical explanation). Too high and you will get algae outbreaks. Salt beween 3000 and 3400 ppm. 3200 is ideal, bump it back up when it drops to 3000. Remember you will lose some salt and CYA with each backwash so test these levels at least montly and adjust HIGHLY RECOMMENDED is adding borates to 50 ppm using either a commercial borate product such as Proteam Supreme, Bioguard Optimizer, Guardex Maximizer, PoolLife Endure, or by using borax and muriatic acid or by using boric acid. Test the borate levels with LaMotte borate test strips, they are the easiest to read! Borates will: help stabilize pH help prevent algae outbreaks and reduce chlorine demand make the water "feel" better make the water "sparkle" ..... then decided to go salt system -2 weeks ago... had it installed and put about 14 bags of fine salt from Leslie's Pool, and the Hayward Aquarite. I think the installer did not put the Instant Conditioner [3 gallons]... It went from 2700 to 3400 and then last week it went down to 32000 - 3100. Used Super Chlorinate but still at 31000-3200 after 48+ hrs with readings of above. It rained quite a bit here for a few days. Just today I added 2 gallons of Instant Conditoner [pool is somehow cloudy and now it is ok but I saw brown like stains.. not sure if it is metal stains or Algae?? Assume it is algae until you get your water balanced. DO you have any combined chlorine? Once again strips are useless. Get a Taylor K-2006 test kit! Once you get the water balanced and if the stains are still there we can test them easily to see of they are metal or organic. I also added Algaecide 20% from Aqua Chem. I had put Culator metal Remover about 3 weeks ago and just yesterday I took the Packet out from the skimmer. I am not sure if I should have left it there in the skimmer. As they say leave it for 24 hrs and then remove it but I did not. Did the metal went back to the pool then? Anyway I put metal free [liquid from intheswim]. Please advise on what to do... Should I have changed the sand before I changed to Salt System? The installer used the salt from the Pool Company 'Leslie Salt' they were very fine type I thnk Things I used so far http://www.lesliespo...cals/16458.html $9 a bag?!?! next time use solar salt for water sofeners from Diamond or Morton. It's about half the price!(and just as pure if not purer!) http://www.lesliespo...ters/12306.html This is CYA. You need to be testing the level of this since it will drop with backwashing. Get a Taylor K-2006 test kit. Strips are useless. Algaecide - 1 bottle used http://www.aquachem....nextfmt=default Garbage, It is a linear quat and will foam. If you are going to use an algaecide use polyquat 60! IF you maintain the proper FC level for your CYA level or, better yet, drain and refill to get your CYA to 80 ppm and keep your FcC at 4-5 ppm you will not get algae. Can you recommend what type to get?? there are so many of them.. what about Jack Magic - Magenta Stuff or Purple stuff? I have order 1/2 doz of those on the way to solve this problem now.. Magenta stuff and purple stuff are metal sequestrants. Has your water tested positive for metals or do you have extremely high calcium hardness? If not you don't need them! http://search.inthes...com/?q=algacide The Algaecide 60 Plus is polyquat 60 and is the only one to consider using BUT you don't need an algaecide. You need to get a good test kit and get your water balanced!!! Get your self a good test kit (Once again , the Taylor K-2006 is your best bet) and post a full set of test results and we can take it from there. In the mean time get your chlorine levels up by adding either liquid chlorine or unscented laundry bleach (they are the same chemical you SWG is making). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 You can get the Taylor K-2006 at a good price from Amato Industries though their shipping is slow (figure one week). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Pectin, I just reread all your old posts and threads and you have been having a LOT of water issues. It all boils down to this: 1) You need to test your water so you know what you need to add, how much of it to add, and when you need to add it 2) To do the #1 properly you need a good test kit and you need to use it on a regular basis. 3) It seems you have been dumping a lot of chemicals into your pool. This only makes matter worse. It seems you have been searching for the proverbial "magic in a bottle that will solve all my pool water problems". I can tell you that this particular "holy grail of pool maintenance" does not exists and you need to test and adjust your water if you want a problem free pool. It's not hard and is going to be a lot easier than what you have been doing. 4) Once set up and balanced a salt pool is very easy to care for but you do have to care for it (as you do any pool). Here is an analogy--How long do you think your car will continue to function if you never check the oil (total alkalinity), the air in the tires (pH), brake fluid (calcium hardness) or the coolant (CYA) and you never adjust any of these when it's needed but all you do is keep putting in gas (chlorine)? It will run fine for a while but then you will start having problems that are going to be much more difficult to solve than if you had been taking care of it properly from the beginning. We can help you do all this but not without valid test results so your first step is to get yourself a good test kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pectin Posted May 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Pectin, I just reread all your old posts and threads and you have been having a LOT of water issues. It all boils down to this: 1) You need to test your water so you know what you need to add, how much of it to add, and when you need to add it 2) To do the #1 properly you need a good test kit and you need to use it on a regular basis. 3) It seems you have been dumping a lot of chemicals into your pool. This only makes matter worse. It seems you have been searching for the proverbial "magic in a bottle that will solve all my pool water problems". I can tell you that this particular "holy grail of pool maintenance" does not exists and you need to test and adjust your water if you want a problem free pool. It's not hard and is going to be a lot easier than what you have been doing. 4) Once set up and balanced a salt pool is very easy to care for but you do have to care for it (as you do any pool). Here is an analogy--How long do you think your car will continue to function if you never check the oil (total alkalinity), the air in the tires (pH), brake fluid (calcium hardness) or the coolant (CYA) and you never adjust any of these when it's needed but all you do is keep putting in gas (chlorine)? It will run fine for a while but then you will start having problems that are going to be much more difficult to solve than if you had been taking care of it properly from the beginning. We can help you do all this but not without valid test results so your first step is to get yourself a good test kit. Yes I just ordered one from PoolCenter. the comprehensive kit 2600k. Hopefully it will come soon and I can figure out what happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leafwrangler Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Wow Cyanuric @ 120 in a 23,000 gal pool, You need to dump that water and start over brother, Dont waste time and money. The Chlorine you add will NOT have any desired effect at that lvl. I suggest you hire a Professional Pool Cleaning Service, maybe find one with a Chemical only service if you are trying to be economical. This will save you more money in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pectin Posted May 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 I just tested water and it is... This photos was taken 20 mins ago... I think that was from yesterday instant conditioner? If throw the water... how much do I need to put it down to? CYA at 150 TA 140 PH 7.8 FC 1 TC 1 Total Hardness: 0 http://www.flickr.com/photos/63296411@N08/5752106609/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/63296411@N08/5752652352/ Poolcenter has shipped the Testing kit to me today.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leafwrangler Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Dump 9 Pounds of Cyanuric once you drain and refill and this should bring you back to 60ppm and you will be good there. Your Taylor test kit has a pool Bible with awesome Charts on the last pages. Keep it close to you, Put it under your pillow. Adjust accordingly and you will be fine. When you do drain your pool I would recommend a good Ole Chlorine wash while you have it drained. But thats a whole other thread Also I suggest you use Cal-Hypo Chlorine NOT liquid and please Do not use Laundry Bleach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pectin Posted May 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 I just got back from the Pool store Pool and spa depot here and they tested my water... it was Free Chlorine 4 Total Available Chlorine 4 Salt 30000 Calcium Hardness 170 CYA 99 TA 120 PH 7.4 Cooper 0 Iron 0 Phospates 2500 Temperature 75 They say is fine not too far off and told me to add 2 bags of 40lbs salt... Diamond. Based on the info I thought it was a little high still but they guy there had over 30 yrs with with pool maintenance... and he mentioned of the Cicadas now is also causing the pool to spike.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leafwrangler Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 I always laugh when someone says "I been doin' pools for xx years" and for someone to have 30 years exp. in pool maintenance but is working behind the counter testing chemicals at the local pool store isn't saying much. 99 cya is High for your pool, I would at still drop it 3/4 or do a complete dump and refill. You'll see about 80 bucks on your water bill and Thats shooting high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pectin Posted May 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 I always laugh when someone says "I been doin' pools for xx years" and for someone to have 30 years exp. in pool maintenance but is working behind the counter testing chemicals at the local pool store isn't saying much. 99 cya is High for your pool, I would at still drop it 3/4 or do a complete dump and refill. You'll see about 80 bucks on your water bill and Thats shooting high. Yes I know what you mean. Thanks for telling me that. People sometimes use experience a lot these days... I am a newbie who is in the process of understanding some fundamentals only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 YOU DO NOT NEED TO DO A COMPLETE DRAIN AND REFILL!!!!!! yOU JUST NEED TO GET THE CYA DOWN TO 8O PPM (NOT 60 LIKE LEAFWRANGER SAID!) You need to replace approx 50% of the water in the pool to get there if the pool has a CYA of 150 ppm. Problem is that CYA over 100 ppm is very difficult to measure with any precision. Often all we can tell is that is is above 100 ppm. I would do a 50% water replacement, give the pool about 48 hours of circulation and test the CYA. Once we get that in line we will get the salt back to where it it supposed to be, adjust TA, pH and Calcium Hardness, and then get the salt water generator 'tuned in' to maintain the proper FC level. If there is any algae we will get rid of it by shocking with either liquid chlorine or laundry bleach. I would not worry about any meta stains until you get the water balanced and get a feel for what the maintenance is. You want to deal with the stains when the weather is colder because you will need to drop the chlorine low to get rid of them and there is less chance of an algae bloom in colder weather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Dump 9 Pounds of Cyanuric once you drain and refill and this should bring you back to 60ppm and you will be good there. Not with a SWCG if he want to have good pH stability. 80 ppm is better since it translates into less cell on time which translates into less hydrogen gas production which translates into less outgassing of CO2 from aeration from the hydrogen bubbles which translates into less pH rise from the outgassing of CO2! Your Taylor test kit has a pool Bible with awesome Charts on the last pages. Keep it close to you, Put it under your pillow. Adjust accordingly and you will be fine. When you do drain your pool I would recommend a good Ole Chlorine wash while you have it drained. But thats a whole other thread While the book that comes with the Taylor kit is good there are some inaccuracies in it. There are actually better dosage calculators such as the ones from OnBalance or The Pool Calculator. Personally, I use the OnBalance charts since I don't always have a computer with me but a chart and calculator is easy to carry. Also I suggest you use Cal-Hypo Chlorine NOT liquid and please Do not use Laundry Bleach. Why cal hypo? Liquid chlorine (sodium hypochlorite) has fewer negative effects on the water and is what is being produced by the salt water chlorine generator. Laundry bleach IS sodium hypochlorite in either 5.25% or 6% while pool chlorine is sodium hypochlorite in either 6%, 10 % or 12.5% so the only difference is the amount needed to get the same FC level. Cal hypo today is normally 48% so it is mostly fillers. 48% cal hypo is a class 2 oxidizer so it is fairly safe to store which is why it is normally the only strength you can find these days. The stronger 68% and 73% cal hypo has all but disappeared from the market since it is a class 3 oxidizer in these stronger strengths and has been the cause of several warehouse fires and explosions and it more difficult to transport. Because of this cal hypo is not really a chlorinating compound of choice anymore, IMHO. FWIW, liqiud chloirne IS laundry bleach IS sodium hypochlorite. They are all the same thing! Most pool professionals that use liquid chlorine normally refer to it as "bleach" btw (at least in my neck of the woods where liquid pool chlorine is very common). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 I always laugh when someone says "I been doin' pools for xx years" and for someone to have 30 years exp. in pool maintenance but is working behind the counter testing chemicals at the local pool store isn't saying much. 99 cya is High for your pool, I would at still drop it 3/4 or do a complete dump and refill. You'll see about 80 bucks on your water bill and Thats shooting high. I have worked behind the counter in a pool store and also have cared for large commercial pool installations so how would you classify me? Exactly what is your experience that allows you to be so judgmental. Your advice here has not been sound BTW. You are a new member to this forum and from what I have seen you don't know as much as you think you do. first I find all the various, widely different CYA readings suspect. First it is 150, then it is 120 then it is 99. It is too high, that it true. The question becomes "how much too high is it?" However, there are two ways to deal with this. 1) run a higher FC to compensate (not the best way but useful until a drain and refill can be done) 2) do a PARTIAL drain and refill to get the CYA down to the proper level (80 ppm in this case because of the Goldline salt water chlorine generator. A rule of thump with salt system is to run the CYA at the manufacturer's recommended maximum for best pH stability (reason gets technical) which is usually either 80 or 100 ppm for the vast majority of units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pectin Posted May 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 I always laugh when someone says "I been doin' pools for xx years" and for someone to have 30 years exp. in pool maintenance but is working behind the counter testing chemicals at the local pool store isn't saying much. 99 cya is High for your pool, I would at still drop it 3/4 or do a complete dump and refill. You'll see about 80 bucks on your water bill and Thats shooting high. I have worked behind the counter in a pool store and also have cared for large commercial pool installations so how would you classify me? Exactly what is your experience that allows you to be so judgmental. Your advice here has not been sound BTW. You are a new member to this forum and from what I have seen you don't know as much as you think you do. first I find all the various, widely different CYA readings suspect. First it is 150, then it is 120 then it is 99. It is too high, that it true. The question becomes "how much too high is it?" However, there are two ways to deal with this. 1) run a higher FC to compensate (not the best way but useful until a drain and refill can be done) 2) do a PARTIAL drain and refill to get the CYA down to the proper level (80 ppm in this case because of the Goldline salt water chlorine generator. A rule of thump with salt system is to run the CYA at the manufacturer's recommended maximum for best pH stability (reason gets technical) which is usually either 80 or 100 ppm for the vast majority of units. The 150 I got from those cheap strips which I should not have used... I then lowered the water and retest it at 120. 99 was the result I got when I went to the pool store [leslie] here and the guys tested it with their chemicals. As I find out more I realize that CYA can swing quite a bit. I am still not familiar with what makes it swing... I am sure there are many factors. I am still a true noob in terms of salt systems. Thanks Waterbear for being so gracious and understanding I truly appreciate it. I trust this forum which is why I am here quite a bit.... yes I just listed to people sometimes without thinking... I am guilty of that. Sometimes I am a little wary of those retail pool stores.. they tell you mostly of what is needed but sometimes some spikes they do not tell you it is 'Not' important which is why people have to keep going back to them.... as that leads to other problems later. Yes I did a partial drain and once I get the better test kit I can post info. I should not have added the algaecide from Aquachem.. as it is not a Polyquat as you suggested. I kinda ran out of some chemicals and have just ordered some [the correct ones] and hopefully this will help. As I still have a lot of the old chemicals from the Chlorine base system...which I need to sell off in Craiglist... but not much left. I think I have some slight brownish stain coming back again... I believe they are not algae as the skimmer also have a light brownish coffee type stain. What can I use? In your earlier post you mentioned of HEDP and other phosphonates.... My Phospate level is very high.. and was told to use a 2 liter Phos Free from natural chemistry to eliminate the phoshates. I am just wondering if I wait for 4-5 days for the kit to come in my pool might be quite badly stained. That was why I got hasty and added stuff into the pool based on my previous experience in the Chlorine base feeder system. BTW the foam and cloudiness has dissappated and water much clearer now at 11:30pm. I have stopped the pump since having it run for quite a few days now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 First and most important, YOU STILL HAVE A CHLORINE SYSTEM. Salt pools ARE chlorine pools, just the source of chlorine is being made in the pool and not being added. You might still have a use for a lot of your old chemicals. Why don't you list what you have so we can tell you if you need it or not. Second, don't worry about phosphates. They are only one factor in algae growth and phosphate removes are a big money maker for pool stores and a big wallet drainer for you. They are not needed about 99.9% of the time. Third, remember that pool supply stores are in business to sell you chemicals. They want to sell you as much as they can each time you go in. This is their "bottom line" If you are aware of this when you go in you will not get taken. You do not need most of what they are trying to sell you. You don't need algaecide, clarifiers, defoamers, enzymes, phosphate removers, etc. in the very vast majority of cases. Also, once you learn what the actual chemicals are that you are putting in your pool you will stop buying expensive baking soda at the pool store that is labeled as TA increaser and start buying the more pure and less expensive baking soda sold at the grocery store. There are many pool chemicals that you can get at the grocery or hardware store, BTW! TA increaser=sodium bicarbonate=sodium hydrogen carbonate=baking soda pH increaser= sodium carbonate=soda ash=Arm and Hammer Super Washing Soda (in the laundry aisle) sodium hypochlorite=liquid pool chlorine= unscented chlorine laundry bleach commercial borate products =sodium tetraborate=20 Mule Team Borax (in the laundry aisle) Muriatic acid can be found in most hardware stores and many big box stores, compare prices. Sometimes the pool supply has the best price. Ditto for liquid chlorine. If it is sold in your area in pool stores it is sometimes a better buy than bleach from the grocery. If liquid chlorine is not sold in your area than use the bleach. If you ever need to shock your pool it's better to add bleach then to turn the system on superchorinate. Fourth, CYA does not fluctuate or "swing" but testing can be imprecise. Get your own test kit, test it yourself, and believe your readings. You are are going to be more precise than the pool store. I am glad you ordered the K-2006. You will be amazed at how easy it makes your water testing. Fifth, do not worry about the brown staining right now. If ascorbic acid removed it easily then it's most likely iron and it's fairly easy to remove. Get a handle on basic water testing and pool maintenance with your new salt system then tackle the stains. The only things the stains affect is the look of the pool. It's best to deal with them when the weather turn cold anyway or you risk a bad algae bloom! Sixth, You calcium hardness is too low if you have either a plaster or fiberglass pool. In a plaster pool the water will be aggressive to the plaster finish if the calcium is too low. In a fiberglass pool there is some evidence that there can be increased propensity to staining and cobalt spotting. Seventh, the TA, while perfect for the use of trichlor tabs, is too high for an unstabilized chlorine source such as your new salt system. You will want to lower it to around 70 ppm (and then raise the calcium hardness to maintain water balance). Once your test kit comes we can get started balancing your pool and we will deal with the stains either right before closing or right after opening when the weather is still cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 If the water isn't already saturated with calcium carbonate to protect plaster, then Cal-Hypo is a chlorine option one could use though obviously chlorinating liquid or bleach are fine as well, but if one uses Cal-Hypo regularly then the CH level will rise unless there is water dilution. The following are chemical facts independent of concentration of product or of pool size: For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Trichlor, it also increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 6 ppm. For every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor, it also increases CYA by 9 ppm. For every 10 ppm FC added by Cal-Hypo, it also increases Calcium Hardness (CH) by at least 7 ppm. As for saltwater chlorine generator pools exposed to direct sunlight, if you keep their CYA level at 60 ppm instead of 80 ppm, then they will lose more chlorine from breakdown by the UV in sunlight and that will require a higher on-time of the generator which not only makes the pH rise more quickly requiring more acid regularly, but also wears out the generator (plates) faster. Having an FC target of 4 ppm with the CYA at 80 ppm will prevent algae growth with no need for shocking or use of additional chemicals (i.e. clarifiers, flocculants, algaecides, phosphate removers) and will lessen the rate of pH rise and amount of acid needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leafwrangler Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 You can maintain a pool @ 60ppm CYA or even 65, 70, 75, 80. Cal-Hypo is NOT difficult to transport and is a very excellent choice one could use, but what I have learned is that Pool Cleaners in different parts of the country do things differently. You have to be really careless to start a fire. As I said in my post that was deleted, I have a bucket of Cal-Hypo 68% in my Van. It has NOT disappeared from the market. I don't understand why my post got deleted, I was the first to post a reply to help the creator of this thread and the moderator comes in with the "I'm right and your wrong" Attitude, and starts lashing @ the newbie poster??? Im new to the forums not to the forums, I run a commercial route and residential route. Your moderator asked what Exp I have and its funny that the post I explained my Exp was deleted This Forum I thought was to help people with thier pool, not measure ones Exp in pools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 You can maintain a pool @ 60ppm CYA or even 65, 70, 75, 80. Then you obviously do not understand the relationship between CYA level and pH rise in a salt pool and you have not read what chem geek wrote either. You can run it at 0 ppm CYA also for that matter BUT there will be problems with pH stability. Perhaps you should take some time a read the forum. You might learn a thing or two, particularly about pool chemistry. You came in here as a new member and immediately began criticizing pool store personnel. Granted, many of them are clueless but so are many pool cleaners and service techs too. So are many CPOs. For proof of that just look at the how many still believe that you lower TA by slugging acid and lower pH by walking acid. It's the pool cleaners and service techs that keep this myth alive even though it has been disproven and research results published in trade journals (JSPSI) and other places well over 15 years ago! I never said that the stronger cal hypo was no longer available but if you check what is available retail these days you will find that it's just about all 48% The fact that 48% cal hypo is a class 2 oxidizer and the stronger ones ar a class 3 oxidizer IS a fact. That stronger strengths of cal hypo have started fires is a fact. That shipping and handling of stronger cal hypos is problematic is a fact. This is the reason that the stronger strengths have become more difficult for the average consumer to obtain. Also, continued use of cal hypo can become problematic for salt systems and it should be predissolved first, which increases the work involved. When needed to carry a large amount to service many pools on a root it is certainly more convenient to carry than a 50 gal tank of liquid chlorine or a truck full of carboys but it is also a fact that sodium hypochorite has less impact on water balance than cal hypo. It is a true statement that things are done differently in different parts of the country. In some parts of the country liquid chlorine is not available so laundry bleach can be used since it is EXACTLY THE SAME THING! Some parts of the country (with short swim seasons that winterize pools and have sand filters as the norm) do not have problems with overstaibilizaton on pools run with trichlor but in other parts of the country (that do no winterize, have long or year long swim seasons and where non backwashing filters are required by code) become overstabilized in a short time so they either do the drain and refill dance or dose with an unstabiliized chlorine source. As far as a post getting deleted, it's a mystery to me. If I had deleted your post I would have sent you a PM with the reasons and increased your warn status. I would still would like to know your experience. I assume you work a pool route since your handle is leafwranger (which indicates that you spend a lot of time with a leaf rake) and that you said you have a bucket of 68% cal hypo in your van. However, you could have started on this route last week or 20 years ago so until you tell us your experience we really do not know it. I like to keep my salt pool Ph lvl's @ 7.2-7.4 and of course test your Cyanuric Acid lvl. This is a quote from your "first to post a reply to help the creator of this thread". This clearly shows that you do not understand the relationship between speed of pH (note the correct spelling with small p and capital H) rise from outgassing of CO2 and how low you set the pH. By running the pool at a higher pH there will be a much slower pH rise and better pH stability. TA is also an important factor here too (but I assume you understand the relationship between TA, over carbonation of the water, CO2 outgassing, and speed of pH rise with unstabilized chlorine sources since you use cal hypo, which I am sure you know is an unstabilized chlorine source. At least I hope your do understand this relationship.). Once again I suggest you take some time to read the forum. You might learn something that can help you with your pool route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leafwrangler Posted May 26, 2011 Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 Yea I use a leaf rake on my routes thats why I call myself the "leafwrangler". And your right I dont understand anything about PH, and you know what? Your also your right about my route, I just started it last week. WOW, you do know everything, look I apologize your right about it all please delete my post, obviously only your post are "valid". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted May 26, 2011 Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 no need to delete you post. I think it stands as an excellent comment as to your character! (and it's not PH either...once again the correct abbreviation for Potential of Hydrogen is pH. This is taught in high school chemistry and general science so once again I am going to be generous and assume that your above statement is also not facetious as I did in the other thread you posted in today and take it as the truth!) Pectin, sorry about the hijack. Did you get your test kit yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pectin Posted May 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 First and most important, YOU STILL HAVE A CHLORINE SYSTEM. Salt pools ARE chlorine pools, just the source of chlorine is being made in the pool and not being added. You might still have a use for a lot of your old chemicals. Why don't you list what you have so we can tell you if you need it or not. Second, don't worry about phosphates. They are only one factor in algae growth and phosphate removes are a big money maker for pool stores and a big wallet drainer for you. They are not needed about 99.9% of the time. Third, remember that pool supply stores are in business to sell you chemicals. They want to sell you as much as they can each time you go in. This is their "bottom line" If you are aware of this when you go in you will not get taken. You do not need most of what they are trying to sell you. You don't need algaecide, clarifiers, defoamers, enzymes, phosphate removers, etc. in the very vast majority of cases. Also, once you learn what the actual chemicals are that you are putting in your pool you will stop buying expensive baking soda at the pool store that is labeled as TA increaser and start buying the more pure and less expensive baking soda sold at the grocery store. There are many pool chemicals that you can get at the grocery or hardware store, BTW! TA increaser=sodium bicarbonate=sodium hydrogen carbonate=baking soda pH increaser= sodium carbonate=soda ash=Arm and Hammer Super Washing Soda (in the laundry aisle) sodium hypochlorite=liquid pool chlorine= unscented chlorine laundry bleach commercial borate products =sodium tetraborate=20 Mule Team Borax (in the laundry aisle) Muriatic acid can be found in most hardware stores and many big box stores, compare prices. Sometimes the pool supply has the best price. Ditto for liquid chlorine. If it is sold in your area in pool stores it is sometimes a better buy than bleach from the grocery. If liquid chlorine is not sold in your area than use the bleach. If you ever need to shock your pool it's better to add bleach then to turn the system on superchorinate. Fourth, CYA does not fluctuate or "swing" but testing can be imprecise. Get your own test kit, test it yourself, and believe your readings. You are are going to be more precise than the pool store. I am glad you ordered the K-2006. You will be amazed at how easy it makes your water testing. Fifth, do not worry about the brown staining right now. If ascorbic acid removed it easily then it's most likely iron and it's fairly easy to remove. Get a handle on basic water testing and pool maintenance with your new salt system then tackle the stains. The only things the stains affect is the look of the pool. It's best to deal with them when the weather turn cold anyway or you risk a bad algae bloom! Sixth, You calcium hardness is too low if you have either a plaster or fiberglass pool. In a plaster pool the water will be aggressive to the plaster finish if the calcium is too low. In a fiberglass pool there is some evidence that there can be increased propensity to staining and cobalt spotting. Seventh, the TA, while perfect for the use of trichlor tabs, is too high for an unstabilized chlorine source such as your new salt system. You will want to lower it to around 70 ppm (and then raise the calcium hardness to maintain water balance). Once your test kit comes we can get started balancing your pool and we will deal with the stains either right before closing or right after opening when the weather is still cold. Just got kit yesterday but had several trees down due to nearby strong winds here in Nashville and electric was out 2 days and need to attend to it first. I will read that and then test the water.. released about 40% and refilled. Water much clearer now.. just some simple test from natural chemistry showed strong amt of phospate [deep blue water]. I am going to let the new water circulate for 24 hr first and go from there. Thanks everyone. BTW I acgtually use Walmart Bleach and 10lbs bag baking soda from walmart before I went with the SWG... SG seems tough... at least for me for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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