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Newbie here..be nice :)

OK. I am beyond frustrated! :angry:

We just got our new Sundance Hartford (470 US Gallons) delivered and filled by the pool store on Thursday. Ever since a drop of water was put in the darn thing, the PH and TA are WAYYYY too high.

The only thing the pool guy did before he left was put chlorine granules in it. I let the temp rise overnight and tested it with our test strips (as horrible those things are) and the PH was way out of range, beyond what the strip could read, as well as TA.

I followed the PH down instructions, adding a little at a time. Retesting, adding, retesting.... Until I used about 1/2 of a 16 oz bottle of PH down.

Frustrated, I headed to the pool & spa store in my local town. Here is their water analysis:

TA: 195

PH: OVER (She said her machine couldn't even read it)

Calcium: 0

Oxidizer: .43

Sanitizer: .57

I was told from those numbers to add 16oz of PH down and 20oz of calcium booster stuff. Also, needed to add chlorine....which I have been doing CONSTANTLY. This thing will register correct levels of chlorine for about 20-30 minutes and then I am back between 0-1ppm.

I added the calcium booster (16oz) and now we are perfect on that.

So I came home. Added an entire bottle of PH down about 4-5oz at a time, turning the jets on and waiting about 20 minutes before testing and adding more. Went through the entire bottle plus more of the granule PH down I had on hand. My test strips are showing a decline (finally!) for TA to ::almost:: within correct range, but the PH is still 8.0 or over. The tub will still not maintain any chlorine levels after about 30 minutes of putting it in.

HELP! I wanted to enjoy this spa and now it is just such a mess I can't even get in it :(

I did test the fill water from our hose and everything was in great range on the strip except TA. So it looks like we normally have high TA in our water and that would cause the PH to skyrocket?

We bought the tub new off the showroom floor. Could it be contaminated? When does the tub become a chemical mess from adding all this stuff and unsafe to use?

I need some help! Such a large investment for something that causes so much stress instead of relief!

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Newbie here..be nice :)

OK. I am beyond frustrated! :angry:

We just got our new Sundance Hartford (470 US Gallons) delivered and filled by the pool store on Thursday. Ever since a drop of water was put in the darn thing, the PH and TA are WAYYYY too high.

The only thing the pool guy did before he left was put chlorine granules in it. I let the temp rise overnight and tested it with our test strips (as horrible those things are) and the PH was way out of range, beyond what the strip could read, as well as TA.

I followed the PH down instructions, adding a little at a time. Retesting, adding, retesting.... Until I used about 1/2 of a 16 oz bottle of PH down.

Frustrated, I headed to the pool & spa store in my local town. Here is their water analysis:

TA: 195

PH: OVER (She said her machine couldn't even read it)

Calcium: 0

Oxidizer: .43

Sanitizer: .57

I was told from those numbers to add 16oz of PH down and 20oz of calcium booster stuff. Also, needed to add chlorine....which I have been doing CONSTANTLY. This thing will register correct levels of chlorine for about 20-30 minutes and then I am back between 0-1ppm.

I added the calcium booster (16oz) and now we are perfect on that.

So I came home. Added an entire bottle of PH down about 4-5oz at a time, turning the jets on and waiting about 20 minutes before testing and adding more. Went through the entire bottle plus more of the granule PH down I had on hand. My test strips are showing a decline (finally!) for TA to ::almost:: within correct range, but the PH is still 8.0 or over. The tub will still not maintain any chlorine levels after about 30 minutes of putting it in.

HELP! I wanted to enjoy this spa and now it is just such a mess I can't even get in it :(

I did test the fill water from our hose and everything was in great range on the strip except TA. So it looks like we normally have high TA in our water and that would cause the PH to skyrocket?

We bought the tub new off the showroom floor. Could it be contaminated? When does the tub become a chemical mess from adding all this stuff and unsafe to use?

I need some help! Such a large investment for something that causes so much stress instead of relief!

Read the Nitro's approach, Dichlor/bleach, method and decontamination. They should help.

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What Waterbear said, but another worthwhile thing to do is actually test the water you filled the tube with, if from to tap then get some and test it or if from a well then test that too, it might at least give you a base line to see whether it's pre-delivery chemicals in your tub.

Tap water is usually quite pH neutral, well in my area anyway. If your source water is OK and nowhere near the readings you are getting from your tub then it might be worth considering decontaminating and dumping the water to start again a fresh.

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Thanks for the replies. I did test the water from the hose that we filled the tub with. The pH was within normal range but the TA was very high to begin with. We have well water and a water softener. The calcium levels in the fill water is very low too.

We were able to correct the calcium level but what confuses me is the pH and TA in the tub currently.

If the fill water was fine at the ph level with high TA shouldn't that be what the tub starts at. Instead after fill the pH skyrocketed and TA remained very high. Does running the jets and increasing water temp cause pH to rise if the TA is already too high?

How much pH down is safe? I have added a 16oz liquid bottle and about 3/4 of a 16oz bottle of dry down. Almost 2 bottles. It seems like I still need to use a lot more. Is it normal for some people to use multiple bottles of ph down to just get the levels correct?

Also, does a high ph and TA cause the tub to use more chlorine? Is that a side effect of having off the chart levels?

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If the fill water was fine at the ph level with high TA shouldn't that be what the tub starts at. Instead after fill the pH skyrocketed and TA remained very high. Does running the jets and increasing water temp cause pH to rise if the TA is already too high?

How much pH down is safe? I have added a 16oz liquid bottle and about 3/4 of a 16oz bottle of dry down. Almost 2 bottles. It seems like I still need to use a lot more. Is it normal for some people to use multiple bottles of ph down to just get the levels correct?

Also, does a high ph and TA cause the tub to use more chlorine? Is that a side effect of having off the chart levels?

You got it. When the TA is high and there is increased aeration (such as running the jets), carbon dioxide outgassing will raise the pH with no change in TA and that's exactly what happened. Read the procedure on lowering the TA in Nitro's write-up. As for pH Down, the liquid version you are using is probably rather weak. Dry Acid would probably be better, but if you can stand it Muriatic Acid would be even stronger. To avoid fuming, you can get the half-strength Muriatic Acid (15-16% Hydrochloric Acid).

A high pH and TA wouldn't normally affect chlorine usage, but if the Calcium Hardness (CH) isn't low then scale could form. Your high chlorine usage is most likely because it's a new tub and there are a variety of leftover chemicals from manufacturing that need to be removed. That's why the decontamination procedure includes use of Spa System Flush as well as superchlorination. This also helps remove biofilms that can form from the wet-testing of the spa that usually leaves some water in the pipes.

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Thanks again for the replies.

So, I am going to try again today to add more dry acid to bring the TA down according to Nitro's instructions. Hopefully my pool store will have a good test kit that I can buy to get better numbers instead of these strips! If after getting pH and TA correct the tub still will not maintain chlorine I will dump and decontaminate.

Am I correct that before adding anything to our next fill I should figure out what my baseline is at fill and determine what needs to be done from there? Our water looks good at the source where we filled it (except high TA and low calcium). So, I am assuming that if I can immediately start bringing that fill TA down maybe I would have so much trouble next time?

The guy who installed didn't test the water. He filled the tub, threw some chlorine in it and ran the jets. So am I safe to assume that the pH went through the roof because at fill the TA was very high and we ran the jets without balancing first?

Because of our high TA at fill...should I be planning on using quite a lot of dry acid(gradually)every fill to bring it down?

Thanks for all the help. I really appreciate it! :)

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Thanks again for the replies.

So, I am going to try again today to add more dry acid to bring the TA down according to Nitro's instructions. Hopefully my pool store will have a good test kit that I can buy to get better numbers instead of these strips! If after getting pH and TA correct the tub still will not maintain chlorine I will dump and decontaminate.

Test strips are hit and miss but a decent test kit is money in the bank, plus they not need to cost the earth. I've found that when pH is low (<6.8) the chlorine reading will be though the roof and the opposite to be true when its too high, chances are when you get your pH/TA balance right your chlorine reading will be fine.

Am I correct that before adding anything to our next fill I should figure out what my baseline is at fill and determine what needs to be done from there? Our water looks good at the source where we filled it (except high TA and low calcium). So, I am assuming that if I can immediately start bringing that fill TA down maybe I would have so much trouble next time?

High TA will continue to rise your pH as you run your tube, best sort it first and everything else will fall into line

The guy who installed didn't test the water. He filled the tub, threw some chlorine in it and ran the jets. So am I safe to assume that the pH went through the roof because at fill the TA was very high and we ran the jets without balancing first?

It seem tub/pool dealers are the same the world over, in that they don't appear to know that much about running a tub properly. At least you have done the right thing and join a good forum like this one with guys like Chem Geek and Waterbear who really know their stuff

Because of our high TA at fill...should I be planning on using quite a lot of dry acid(gradually)every fill to bring it down?

Best follow the guide on this forum for lowering your TA, doing it slowly means less chance of over doing it

Thanks for all the help. I really appreciate it! :)

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Yes, footie is correct that you should always test your water first. In fact, you shouldn't rely on your spa store for such testing and should instead get your own good test kit such as the Taylor K-2006 or the TFTestkits TF-100.

If you are going to decontaminate, then before changing the water you could probably just add the SeaKlear Spa System Flush (available here, among other places). That will save an extra water change. In fact, I'd probably just do this and not bother with the pH/TA this time around since I don't believe it's going to help your high chlorine demand situation. You can adjust your TA level after you refill.

Yes, with your high TA, you should plan on needing a lot of acid to bring it down. In 470 gallons, lowering the TA by 10 ppm requires 1.2 fluid ounces of full-strength Muriatic Acid (31.45% Hydrochloric Acid) or twice that amount of half-strength Muriatic Acid or 1.6 ounces weight (about 1.1 ounce volume) of dry acid (93.2% sodium bisulfate). You don't add the full amount of acid needed to lower the TA all at once because the pH would drop too low as a result, but you add acid to lower the pH to around 7.0 or so and aerate to raise the pH (to 7.2 or higher) before adding acid again.

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Yes, footie is correct that you should always test your water first. In fact, you shouldn't rely on your spa store for such testing and should instead get your own good test kit such as the Taylor K-2006 or the TFTestkits TF-100.

If you are going to decontaminate, then before changing the water you could probably just add the SeaKlear Spa System Flush (available here, among other places). That will save an extra water change. In fact, I'd probably just do this and not bother with the pH/TA this time around since I don't believe it's going to help your high chlorine demand situation. You can adjust your TA level after you refill.

Yes, with your high TA, you should plan on needing a lot of acid to bring it down. In 470 gallons, lowering the TA by 10 ppm requires 1.2 fluid ounces of full-strength Muriatic Acid (31.45% Hydrochloric Acid) or twice that amount of half-strength Muriatic Acid or 1.6 ounces weight (about 1.1 ounce volume) of dry acid (93.2% sodium bisulfate). You don't add the full amount of acid needed to lower the TA all at once because the pH would drop too low as a result, but you add acid to lower the pH to around 7.0 or so and aerate to raise the pH (to 7.2 or higher) before adding acid again.

Thanks for the reply. So you don't believe the water station testing at the spa store is very accurate? The company who I bought from and installed never tested the water, so I know that was the first mistake. I have been taking the water to our local store for their testing. They then tell me about how many ounces of acid to add...which always is never enough.

As of today I have added a total of 16 liquid oz of acid AND 18 oz of dry acid. The pH is still up, but has come down some. The TA is starting to come within normal range.

I am taking the water again tomorrow to have them test it again. It looks like I still need more acid but now that my strip is actually showing TA decrease and pH decrease I am going to stop for today and try again tomorrow since it's hard to figure out where it actually falls on the strip.

I will research your suggestions for testing kits and spa flush. We have family coming in town very soon and now that I spent all this time trying to get the TA and pH down, spent a fortune on chemicals..etc, I kinda just want to let them enjoy the spa and keeping the chlorine level up for the week and then flush and dump after they leave.

So did I understand you correctly stating that you think I can skip certain parts of the decontaminate procedure and just do a spa flush and refill?

Also, when I refill should I go ahead and add my calcium booster right away even though I am still trying to balance pH and TA?

Thanks again for all of your help :)

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We've had numerous reports of inaccurate measurements made by both pool and spa stores as well as by pool and spa owners using test strips. I wouldn't trust those tests. It's possible that your particular spa store is using a better test system and has well-trained personnel carefully performing the test, but that would be the exception to the rule. You really should get your own good test kit -- it will be the best investment for your spa you have or will make.

Yes, you understood me correctly that you could just use the existing water with Spa System Flush, but that was before it sounded like you are most of the way down with your TA. I just didn't want you to waste more money on acid lowering the TA in water that you would end up dumping right away anyway. If you now get your TA down with the current water you have and you don't mind using a lot of chlorine to keep the FC up, then you can use the water you've got, but personally if this were my situation I'd just skip right to the decontamination (with Spa System Flush first with the current water) so that I'd start off with a clean slate that will use less chemicals going forward.

As for your calcium booster, I would not bother with that until you get to water that you plan to keep and not dump. The calcium is mostly to prevent foaming.

Basically for a brand new spa one normally wants to fill with water, do a Spa System Flush and/or decontamination with chlorine, dump the water, then start fresh and do the TA, CH, pH and other adjustments with that fresh water after the spa has been cleaned up (flushed and/or decontaminated). People that don't do that generally have much higher chlorine demand when using their spa and end up changing the water a lot sooner than they otherwise would.

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Hey, not all pool and spa stores are horrible with horrible equipment :)

You're an exception to the rule and we're grateful for that! Actually, just from rough statistics based on pool/spa forums, the spa stores seem to be somewhat better than the pool stores in this regard. Part of it is that they usually aren't checking for CH or CYA which pool stores often get wrong, but part of it may be having more time to spend to do it right. Some pool stores get swamped or rushed with people wanting samples checked and there are some pool store chains that don't have the same level of training (and have higher turnover) than the smaller independently owned spa dealers.

You're also CPO certified and an APSP member -- something that isn't as common among pool and spa dealers as it should be.

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OK so here is where I am at:

I bought the Taylor 2006 test kit that I just got in the mail today...that was before I recently switched to bromine with a floater...so I think the kit I bought tests for chlorine. oops :(

I also ordered the spa flush you suggested for before I dump it.

Today the pool/spa store gave me these results:

Sanitizer 1.6

pH 7.97

TA 73

Calcium 193

How are these numbers looking? They wanted me to add TA increaser and then do more pH down tomorrow. I feel like I am running around in circles...

I would not get the chlorine to maintain in the water. I have always wanted to do bromine so I switched to bromine when my chlorine level was 0.5. I am using the tablets in the floater. It seems to be holding sanitizer levels much better.

Like I said, I bought the taylor 2006 kit but figured it tested for both chlorine and bromine...but I don't think so. I will be reading the manual tonight.

I have a question for next fill... The spa store where I bought the tub from told me that it might be best to have someone come in and fill the tub when I fill it again since my fill water is VERY high in TA... they said the levels should be pretty good if I did that. The guy was saying it's about $85 to get it filled and honestly, I have spent more than that on all these chemicals to get the water stabilized. Anyone have an opinion on that?

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Like I said, I bought the taylor 2006 kit but figured it tested for both chlorine and bromine...but I don't think so. I will be reading the manual tonight.

You can use the chlorine kit for testing bromine as well. The bromine level is just 2.25 times the chlorine reading. So when using a 10 ml sample size, each drop of titrating reagent represents 1.125 ppm bromine while if you were to use the 25 ml sample size then each drop represents 0.45 ppm bromine. Technically, you are measuring Total Bromine and do not need to use the R-0003 reagent (that's only for distinguishing Combined Chlorine, but you can't separate Combined Bromine since it gets measured during the first part of the test along with Free Bromine).

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Like I said, I bought the taylor 2006 kit but figured it tested for both chlorine and bromine...but I don't think so. I will be reading the manual tonight.

You can use the chlorine kit for testing bromine as well. The bromine level is just 2.25 times the chlorine reading. So when using a 10 ml sample size, each drop of titrating reagent represents 1.125 ppm bromine while if you were to use the 25 ml sample size then each drop represents 0.45 ppm bromine. Technically, you are measuring Total Bromine and do not need to use the R-0003 reagent (that's only for distinguishing Combined Chlorine, but you can't separate Combined Bromine since it gets measured during the first part of the test along with Free Bromine).

OK so I just read the instructions for the taylor kit and I understand what you are saying...so for bromine

1 drop= .45 ppm for 25 mL

1 drop = 1.125 ppm for 10 mL

Add 2 dippers of R-0870, swirl

Add R-0871 and count drops from pink to clear

Then multiply drops by either .45 or 1.125

So say it took 4 drops in a 25 mL sample then my Free Bromine is: 1.8 ppm Is this correct?

I really don't know what I would do without everyone's help! This is such a great place to learn. Thanks again for the advice on the kit. Now that I read through the instructions I feel like those test strips are EVIL! Can't wait for sunlight so I can try it out. I am so happy that it will test the bromine too. :)

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OK so I just read the instructions for the taylor kit and I understand what you are saying...so for bromine

1 drop= .45 ppm for 25 mL

1 drop = 1.125 ppm for 10 mL

Add 2 dippers of R-0870, swirl

Add R-0871 and count drops from pink to clear

Then multiply drops by either .45 or 1.125

So say it took 4 drops in a 25 mL sample then my Free Bromine is: 1.8 ppm Is this correct?

I really don't know what I would do without everyone's help! This is such a great place to learn. Thanks again for the advice on the kit. Now that I read through the instructions I feel like those test strips are EVIL! Can't wait for sunlight so I can try it out. I am so happy that it will test the bromine too. :)

The easier way to figure that is just test the water as if it were chlorine and when you have your final free chlorine reading multiply it by 2.25 -- in other words, say you use a 10 ml sample and it takes 6 drops of titrant to turn the sample colorless. This would be 6 drops x .5 ppm (per drop with a 10 ml sample) = 3 ppm free chlorine. Multiply this by 2.25 to get your bromine reading which is 6.75 ppm total bromine.

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At the time of the fill. In particular, you don't want to wait to put sanitizer into the water. You can then work on other water parameters such as pH.

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I have another question for anyone able to answer... Do I balance my water at the time of fill or after the water heats up?

I've heard conflicting reports to this, some say as CG does that you test as soon as filled and other say once up to temperature, can't remember whether pH is effected by heat or not but to heat the water it has to pump through some of the jets so that must surely raise the pH a bit, maybe CG or WB can answer that one.

Either way it's an ongoing thing this testing and adjusting so you just have to get on this it I'm afeared, the only plus is your switch to bromine which isn't as difficult to control and maintain. :P

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pH is affected by temperature so unless the pH is very out-of-whack one could wait on that. Basically, the pH will drop as the temperature rises, but probably only by around 0.2 or so.

The only reason I suggest adding sanitizer right away is to prevent bacteria from starting to grow in order to reduce the risk of forming biofilms. If it only takes a few hours to heat up the water, then that's not a problem, but if it takes half a day or more, then that's a risk one might not want to take. Bacteria take around 15-60 minutes to double in population and it takes a certain amount of them to form thick enough biofilms that a sanitizer would have trouble oxidizing.

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Thanks again for all the replies...

What I don't understand is why my pH is so crazy from my fill water. When we filled the tub the fill water was about pH 7.4 and TA 250+ from the hose.

If the water temp doesn't change the pH by much at all, is the high TA in combo with the high water temp making the pH jump to 8.0+ after it heats up?

Also, when I dump and fill what is the best way to get the sanitizer going in the new water when using bromine? Do I just throw in the floater and turn the dial up? Do I put some tablets in the filter area?

Thanks :)

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with a TA of greater than 250 there is a lot of outgassing of CO2 which is causing the pH rise. It is the aeration of your jets and bubblers combined with the very high TA causeing the pH rise.blink.gif

Perhaps this will explain it for you.

The BEST way to get your bromine levels up after a fill and drain is to add sodium bromide and then oxidizing and then adding the floater. This is called three step bromine and is the easiest way to do bromine, IMHO. Here is a step by step to get you started.smile.gif

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with a TA of greater than 250 there is a lot of outgassing of CO2 which is causing the pH rise. It is the aeration of your jets and bubblers combined with the very high TA causeing the pH rise.blink.gif

Perhaps this will explain it for you.

The BEST way to get your bromine levels up after a fill and drain is to add sodium bromide and then oxidizing and then adding the floater. This is called three step bromine and is the easiest way to do bromine, IMHO. Here is a step by step to get you started.smile.gif

I read your post about TA and pH and it made my eyeballs go :wacko: A little over my head! :lol:

There is sooo much information and help here I really appreciate it. I will do the 3 step bromine method at my next fill. So can you please tell me if this "plan" will work for my situation.

1. Use spa flush product

2. Drain, clean and fill

3. Add Sodium Bromide

4. Shock (should this be chlorine or non-chlorine based?)

5. Add floater

6. Adjust TA

7. Adjust pH

8. Add calcium booster (my fill water has no calcium)

Or should I adjust TA and pH, then sodium bromide, shock and oxidize? Does it really matter? I just want to make sure I get some sanitizer going in it.

Today I used my Taylor kit and keep getting a pH of around 7.9-8.0 and TA of 100

I cannot seem to get my pH lower. The other day I added just a tiny bit of acid to move it down a little because my TA was 120, ph 7.9 and it dropped the pH down in the 6 range and TA around 40.

I just cannot seem to get it right :( My family is visiting for the week and I have been keeping bromide up and everything in somewhat normal ranges to enjoy it while they are here. I plan to drain it next week and try to start over.

Also, the water smells funny when I open the cover. Does bromine have a unique smell to it? Could it be my ozone system. The water is clear and sanitizer is fine...it seems that since switching to bromine it smells funny. Any ideas?

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