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Clearwater Xs93 Signature Vs Arctic Yukon Signature


DazedNconfused

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Plaid coats?

You know the Arctic salesman wearing the plaid coat......"this tub is so effecient that the power company is going to pay you for the power your feeding back into the grid to supply the poor sap who didn't buy an Arctic."

Great job of staying classy Roger! Must have lost a few deals lately....

By the way wait til you see the 2011's coming out, they are next to none! Well, I guess the 2010's were pretty good too.

Lost a few deals to what? I'll use your capital letters to explain this to you I DO NOT SELL HOT TUBS!!!! While I have my favorites just like you. My favorites are NOT skewed by the brand I sell because I DO NOT SELL HOT TUBS. Arctic is a fine tub. Not in my top 3 but in my top 10. I evaluate hot tubs based on many factors. I don't base my opinion on the brand I sell (unlike some people...cough!) Arctics skewed "independent study" and their previous sales tactics have tainted them in my mind for quite some time now. Their "it's so much easier to fix or upgrade" BS sales spin still keeps them tainted in my mind. Their "we use the heat generated by the pump motor to heat the water" BS still keeps them tainted to me. Say what you want these things have been argued to death for many many years. But the fact remains, they are not better than several brands but they are better than some.

I would only call the sales pitch "BS" if it was inaccurate! I guess my Arctic Spa magically pulls heat from the earths inner core then, cause its hot and I don't have the heater plugged in! Who knew magic was so inexpensive! LOL. In all seriousness, you cant state that its FACT that Arctic isn't better than several brands, there is no science to prove it. In my opinion, Arctic makes one of the best spas in the world, they are as good as any other spa manufactured. I have hundreds of customers that would agree with my statement. And just because you don't sell hot tubs, doesn't mean you know who is best. I have owned, serviced, delivered, and sold several brands of hot tubs thru my years, and have just as much professional knowledge to know who builds a good spa and who doesn't.

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Still looking...and sadly, we just had to unexpectedly gut our cabin bc of a 65000 gallon water leak from a frozen pipe upstairs...so the ht tub search is on hold until thats repaired.

The Hot Springs dealer here tried the hard press the first day...then has failed to even say hello as i walk into his delaerhsip in the 2 trips since. Done.

Sundance...nice, accomodating...just dont know what it is, but something feels 'off'. THe tubs arent bad.

The Arctic dealer has been patient, informative, and has customers ( 3 different ones)who are friends of ours who vouch for him and his product and service. THe tubs, comfort wise, are on par witht he sundance. I know looks fade, but the Arctic tubs have the nicest polish and look to them of what we've seen.

Not set on anybody, but details matter when trying to pry that kind of money from me.Short of Master, I havent seen as many passionately con opinions here...and just curious as to why.

Bdubya, tough luck on the frozen pipe! What you experienced at the Arctic dealership is how they train the dealers to be, glad to hear that they are following suit. There are many good brands out there, and looks like you have some pretty good choices to choose from. To bad about the Hot Spring salesman.

Good luck with the cabin.

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There is nothing wrong with an Arctic spa, but their marketing and claims are over the top.

All of your good insulation system,s work well, there is no magic bullet and Arctic is no better than many out there. Frankly i think there are 2 types of insulation... good and bad, after that you are splitting hairs. The heat retention is not quite as good as some just down to the simple fact that it has less insulation, and it utilizes the motor heat reasonably well...

In the real world if it was as good as they say we would all insulate the spa the same way... there is no patent on how to insulate a spa, just trademarks on what you call it :rolleyes:

I used to dislike the fact it used gecko controls, not a big fan, frankly it should be Balboa in my opinion, but no one will tell me what they use now :unsure::-(

I also get a laugh out of the hi-flow two and a half inch plumbing... WOW except, they internally glue the joints :lol: this reduces the flow back to 2" They do it because the 2 1/2" external fittings and shut off valves are insanely expensive. This issue is in my mind is indicative of their marketing in general... Create issues out of non issues, and make some inflated claims (in loose terms)

All in all though it is a well built spa, definitely in the Tier one group... but you pay for the marketing...

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There is nothing wrong with an Arctic spa, but their marketing and claims are over the top.

All of your good insulation system,s work well, there is no magic bullet and Arctic is no better than many out there. Frankly i think there are 2 types of insulation... good and bad, after that you are splitting hairs. The heat retention is not quite as good as some just down to the simple fact that it has less insulation, and it utilizes the motor heat reasonably well...

In the real world if it was as good as they say we would all insulate the spa the same way... there is no patent on how to insulate a spa, just trademarks on what you call it :rolleyes:

I used to dislike the fact it used gecko controls, not a big fan, frankly it should be Balboa in my opinion, but no one will tell me what they use now :unsure::-(

I also get a laugh out of the hi-flow two and a half inch plumbing... WOW except, they internally glue the joints :lol: this reduces the flow back to 2" They do it because the 2 1/2" external fittings and shut off valves are insanely expensive. This issue is in my mind is indicative of their marketing in general... Create issues out of non issues, and make some inflated claims (in loose terms)

All in all though it is a well built spa, definitely in the Tier one group... but you pay for the marketing...

THank you very much for your response. I agree that after a point, its splitting hairs re: insulation. I dont gulp the kool aid from any manufacturer's spiel alone. Looking at and laying hands upon...and butts in the seats of.. products is a good litmus test for me as well, as Im sure it is for everyone. Glad to see that you stil consider them tier 1, marketing aside. Ive actually been given nearly identical quotes on a SUndance Certa and an Arctic Cub. At the same price, for comparable layouts, warranties, comfort level, ...arctic xseems t have a nicer qualtiy 'feel' to it...cant explain really...it then comes down to dealer. SO far, the Arctic dealer has been the superior of the 2.

I do appreciate your opinion though. Ive often wondered why, other than heat lock vs full foam...not to get that started again...why some people here down arctic so much.

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they get slagged because they do a lot of gimmicky things like the hi flow pipe, and the insulation, and the thick shell edge, and the over engineered base, and the big deal they make out of non issues like fixing leaks on full foamed spas... And they do it so well!!! they really are one of the best when it comes to a good solid package for a dealer with a pitch all wrapped up nicely in the marketing... it is pretty slick... But boy do you pay the price for that marketing... It is a great line for a guy who is new to the game and needs the whole shebang all dressed up in a neat package.

Are you going for a cedar skirt??? they look great in the showrooms but like hell in the yard after a few years.

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Having been in marketing in a previous life, Im pretty good at seperating the wheat from the chaffe when it comes to that. The things you point out are things I somewhat already kind of ferreted out, but thanks for the clarification on your point. For the size tub we are looking for, and not caring one bit about lights, ozon, salt water, stereos, etc...we are able to get the quotes in line with the other guys like SUndance...so, for me, i dont see that im 'paying for the marketing' any more than other brands. I may be missing something though.

The cedar skirts on any brand look nice, especially the Arctics, but i relaize that there is upkeep involved. Ive seen a few of them weathered and uncared for, and have seen how a little bit of attention each year can keep them looking nice as well. Having a cedar fence at home, Im no rookie when it comes to pressure washing and restaining/sealing every other year or so to keep things looking nice. Not to metnion cleaning/restaining decks as well. Some of the composite stuff looks awesome, while some looks like tupperware. The skirt material isnt a deal breaker one way r the other for me.

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they get slagged because they do a lot of gimmicky things like the hi flow pipe, and the insulation, and the thick shell edge, and the over engineered base, and the big deal they make out of non issues like fixing leaks on full foamed spas... And they do it so well!!! they really are one of the best when it comes to a good solid package for a dealer with a pitch all wrapped up nicely in the marketing... it is pretty slick... But boy do you pay the price for that marketing... It is a great line for a guy who is new to the game and needs the whole shebang all dressed up in a neat package.

Are you going for a cedar skirt??? they look great in the showrooms but like hell in the yard after a few years.

That's just it Robert. Some of the stuff that you say is gimmicky to you isn't to others. The floor really is a big deal for the longevity of the spa, especially if you ever plan to move it. The thick shell is a big deal to lots of people. That's fine if you think it is gimmicky as that is your opinion, but lots and lots of people do see the value in those things. In regards to the cedar cabinet, sure it would look like hell if you choose to never touch it. If you put a coat of stain and seal on it once every year or two, and it will look good year after year. But, if you don't want cedar and the maintenance, no problem. Arctic sells the plastic non maintenance cabinets just like every other brand, so that is a non issue.

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That's just it Robert. Some of the stuff that you say is gimmicky to you isn't to others. The floor really is a big deal for the longevity of the spa, especially if you ever plan to move it. The thick shell is a big deal to lots of people. That's fine if you think it is gimmicky as that is your opinion, but lots and lots of people do see the value in those things. In regards to the cedar cabinet, sure it would look like hell if you choose to never touch it. If you put a coat of stain and seal on it once every year or two, and it will look good year after year. But, if you don't want cedar and the maintenance, no problem. Arctic sells the plastic non maintenance cabinets just like every other brand, so that is a non issue.

You should have left it alone mate I said it was a tier one spa but now you opened up the can :rolleyes:

See what I mean... The floor is overdone, even the cheap Costco spas have a floor that will outlast the spa, floors are really a non-issue and certainly not a big failure part, Ive seen 20+ year old Beachcombers with no floor at all that are still out there working. Any decent sealed base is going to last longer than you will care about.

The thick shell again is two spins in one... spin one it is thicker on the edge than anywhere else, I have replaced jets on the shell of a 2009 Arctic and the shell was no where near as thick where the jet was mounted... and isn't the warranty only 7 years on the shell structure... Most are 25, Plus thickness varies depending on the type of shell... FRP shells are typically beefier than ABS, Endural, and Acrylic based backings with 25 year guarantees... Not that it matters... shells are all pretty good now a days...

The skirt is a personal taste issue... for almost 20 years I sold all Cedar and they are work, and still degrade and never look as good as they do in the showroom, and the plastics can look absolutely abysmal... I think the best skirt going (and one of the priciest) is the compressed high density foam Infinity skirt, but that's just my personal taste so we wont go there...

But again.... IT IS A GOOD TIER ONE SPA... Go buy it or the other one, they both will keep you happy...

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That's just it Robert. Some of the stuff that you say is gimmicky to you isn't to others. The floor really is a big deal for the longevity of the spa, especially if you ever plan to move it. The thick shell is a big deal to lots of people. That's fine if you think it is gimmicky as that is your opinion, but lots and lots of people do see the value in those things. In regards to the cedar cabinet, sure it would look like hell if you choose to never touch it. If you put a coat of stain and seal on it once every year or two, and it will look good year after year. But, if you don't want cedar and the maintenance, no problem. Arctic sells the plastic non maintenance cabinets just like every other brand, so that is a non issue.

You should have left it alone mate I said it was a tier one spa but now you opened up the can :rolleyes:

See what I mean... The floor is overdone, even the cheap Costco spas have a floor that will outlast the spa, floors are really a non-issue and certainly not a big failure part, Ive seem 20+ year old Beachcombers with no floor at all that are still out there working.

The thick shell again is two spins in one... spin one it is thicker on the edge than anywhere else, I have replaced jets on the shell of a 2009 Arctic and the shell was no where near as thick where the jet was mounted... and isn't the warranty only 7 years on the shell structure... Most are 25, Plus thickness varies depending on the type of shell... FRP shells are typically beefier than ABS, Endural, and Acrylic based backings with 25 year guarantees...

The skirt is a personal taste issue... for almost 20 years I sold all Cedar and they are work, and still degrade and never look as good as they do in the showroom, and the plastics can look absolutely abysmal... but that's just my personal taste so we wont go there...

But again.... IT IS A GOOD TIER ONE SPA... Go buy it or the other one, they both will keep you happy...

better work on the facts a bit! lifetime warranty on the shell for an arctic spa.

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That's just it Robert. Some of the stuff that you say is gimmicky to you isn't to others. The floor really is a big deal for the longevity of the spa, especially if you ever plan to move it. The thick shell is a big deal to lots of people. That's fine if you think it is gimmicky as that is your opinion, but lots and lots of people do see the value in those things. In regards to the cedar cabinet, sure it would look like hell if you choose to never touch it. If you put a coat of stain and seal on it once every year or two, and it will look good year after year. But, if you don't want cedar and the maintenance, no problem. Arctic sells the plastic non maintenance cabinets just like every other brand, so that is a non issue.

You should have left it alone mate I said it was a tier one spa but now you opened up the can :rolleyes:

See what I mean... The floor is overdone, even the cheap Costco spas have a floor that will outlast the spa, floors are really a non-issue and certainly not a big failure part, Ive seem 20+ year old Beachcombers with no floor at all that are still out there working.

The thick shell again is two spins in one... spin one it is thicker on the edge than anywhere else, I have replaced jets on the shell of a 2009 Arctic and the shell was no where near as thick where the jet was mounted... and isn't the warranty only 7 years on the shell structure... Most are 25, Plus thickness varies depending on the type of shell... FRP shells are typically beefier than ABS, Endural, and Acrylic based backings with 25 year guarantees...

The skirt is a personal taste issue... for almost 20 years I sold all Cedar and they are work, and still degrade and never look as good as they do in the showroom, and the plastics can look absolutely abysmal... but that's just my personal taste so we wont go there...

But again.... IT IS A GOOD TIER ONE SPA... Go buy it or the other one, they both will keep you happy...

better work on the facts a bit! lifetime warranty on the shell for an arctic spa.

Thanks for the tier one compliment. I would agree as well that it is a tier one spa.

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Cool that's why I asked instead of stating... lifetime (25 years) it is... Yippee its as good as all the rest!!!

But something was bugging me about the shell warranty... what is the surface warranty?

And what electronic control system is it??? No one will answer me on this... I guess that means its not Balboa???

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Cool that's why I asked instead of stating... lifetime (25 years) it is... Yippee its as good as all the rest!!!

But something was bugging me about the shell warranty... what is the surface warranty?

And what electronic control system is it??? No one will answer me on this... I guess that means its not Balboa???

Robert, you told us what you clearly didnt like about the Arctic Spas, but can you tell us why you would put them in tier one? In short, what do you like about them to put them in tier one? Just curious.

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It really is simple , go with what you feel more comfortable with. The 200 mile distance would be enough for me to pay $ 800 more not less. If you like the local dealer and he has a good reputation in your area , then Clearwater is the way to go.

On another note , these top 10 lists aren't worth the key stokes or paper that they are written on. Advertise and pay and promote and you will get on the list.

IMHO

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better work on the facts a bit! lifetime warranty on the shell for an arctic spa.

Lifetime of the spa...could be 5 years or it could be 25?????? The word lifetime really means 7 years. These protections were put in place by the legislation many years ago to protect manufacturers. 7 years trust me. I'm glad Arctic has excepted the challenge to go to 25 like a bunch of other manufacturers but it is the manufacturers choice to go longer than 7 and the consumer is truely only protected by law to 7 if a manufaturer decides to deny after 7.

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Wow I thought lifetime was 20 years but it seems most legal definitions are like this...

Lifetime warranty

A lifetime warranty is usually a guarantee on the lifetime of the product on the market rather than the lifetime of the consumer[1] (the exact meaning should be defined in the actual warranty documentation). If a product has been discontinued and is no longer available, the warranty may last a limited period longer. For example, the Cisco Limited Lifetime Warranty currently lasts for five years after the product has been discontinued.[2]

And I am not Robert but since you quoted my post I'll answer.

I like the build quality,

The spindle jets Yes i know they are Chinese made, and they had that failure rate a few years back with a reaction to Baqua products, but the thread in fitting, and the spindle as for the rotors is a major improvement in my opinion.

I like the build of the skirt even if I do not like the cedar

I like the base, even though it is over done.

I like the plumbing is Pressure pipe hand glued instead of vinyl tubes clamped. (although they have had some leak issues)

The Insulation is good, although I think their leak issues are partially down to the unsupported plumbing which is a drawback to this insulation.

Other than the electronic system there are no major faults in this spa.

But come to think of it Tier one ranking is dependent on which control they now use... I am assuming it to be Balboa, as it would seem silly to change from Gecko to anything else... The Balboa system has so many great patented design features that I have yet to see a control that can compete with it in the field.

So lets say Tier one if the balboa, Just below that if It's not.

Does anyone know the story of why they could not use Balboa when they started up... LOL

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I guess my Arctic Spa magically pulls heat from the earths inner core then, cause its hot and I don't have the heater plugged in! Who knew magic was so inexpensive! LOL.

Here's where I differ than most consumers. If an Arctic salesman showed my this sales spin the first thing I would say is, "but doesn't it cost more to run that pump and generate that heat than it would to use the heater? After all heaters heat water much more effeciently than pumps do. But pumps move water better than heaters do!"

Then the sales guy would say "but you have to filter your water anyway" And I would say "yea but only 4 hours a day, what about the other 20?"

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I guess my Arctic Spa magically pulls heat from the earths inner core then, cause its hot and I don't have the heater plugged in! Who knew magic was so inexpensive! LOL.

Here's where I differ than most consumers. If an Arctic salesman showed my this sales spin the first thing I would say is, "but doesn't it cost more to run that pump and generate that heat than it would to use the heater? After all heaters heat water much more effeciently than pumps do. But pumps move water better than heaters do!"

Then the sales guy would say "but you have to filter your water anyway" And I would say "yea but only 4 hours a day, what about the other 20?"

Your totally reading into it wrong, Arctic is just trapping the waste heat WHILE its filtering. It isn't relying SOLELY on the pump to do the heating.

Also, it was my understanding that the law about lifetime meaning 7 years, is only product that is manufactured inside the USA borders, which obviously the Arctics aren't. Regardless that shell is as good as any shell out there. I have been installing them for 14 years now and have yet to have one have any issues.

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I guess my Arctic Spa magically pulls heat from the earths inner core then, cause its hot and I don't have the heater plugged in! Who knew magic was so inexpensive! LOL.

Here's where I differ than most consumers. If an Arctic salesman showed my this sales spin the first thing I would say is, "but doesn't it cost more to run that pump and generate that heat than it would to use the heater? After all heaters heat water much more effeciently than pumps do. But pumps move water better than heaters do!"

Then the sales guy would say "but you have to filter your water anyway" And I would say "yea but only 4 hours a day, what about the other 20?"

Your totally reading into it wrong, Arctic is just trapping the waste heat WHILE its filtering. It isn't relying SOLELY on the pump to do the heating.

Also, it was my understanding that the law about lifetime meaning 7 years, is only product that is manufactured inside the USA borders, which obviously the Arctics aren't. Regardless that shell is as good as any shell out there. I have been installing them for 14 years now and have yet to have one have any issues.

The pump also runs more than four hours a day. I have told Roger that at least 20 times, but he continues to say four hours. :rolleyes:

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I guess my Arctic Spa magically pulls heat from the earths inner core then, cause its hot and I don't have the heater plugged in! Who knew magic was so inexpensive! LOL.

Here's where I differ than most consumers. If an Arctic salesman showed my this sales spin the first thing I would say is, "but doesn't it cost more to run that pump and generate that heat than it would to use the heater? After all heaters heat water much more effeciently than pumps do. But pumps move water better than heaters do!"

Then the sales guy would say "but you have to filter your water anyway" And I would say "yea but only 4 hours a day, what about the other 20?"

Your totally reading into it wrong, Arctic is just trapping the waste heat WHILE its filtering. It isn't relying SOLELY on the pump to do the heating.

Also, it was my understanding that the law about lifetime meaning 7 years, is only product that is manufactured inside the USA borders, which obviously the Arctics aren't. Regardless that shell is as good as any shell out there. I have been installing them for 14 years now and have yet to have one have any issues.

Forgive my confusion, but if the heater is not plugged as you say, how is it heating other than by the waste heat of pumps?

I suspect that most Arctic owners do have their heaters plugged in and that the waste heat from pumps suppliments the heaters, but your situation seems to be different.

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I guess my Arctic Spa magically pulls heat from the earths inner core then, cause its hot and I don't have the heater plugged in! Who knew magic was so inexpensive! LOL.

Here's where I differ than most consumers. If an Arctic salesman showed my this sales spin the first thing I would say is, "but doesn't it cost more to run that pump and generate that heat than it would to use the heater? After all heaters heat water much more effeciently than pumps do. But pumps move water better than heaters do!"

Then the sales guy would say "but you have to filter your water anyway" And I would say "yea but only 4 hours a day, what about the other 20?"

Your totally reading into it wrong, Arctic is just trapping the waste heat WHILE its filtering. It isn't relying SOLELY on the pump to do the heating.

Also, it was my understanding that the law about lifetime meaning 7 years, is only product that is manufactured inside the USA borders, which obviously the Arctics aren't. Regardless that shell is as good as any shell out there. I have been installing them for 14 years now and have yet to have one have any issues.

The pump also runs more than four hours a day. I have told Roger that at least 20 times, but he continues to say four hours. :rolleyes:

I can't speak for Roger, but I believe that his point may be that there is no need to run pumps more than four hours a day to adequately filter water, unless you are running a low flow circ pump that run 24/7. Many find that with a dual speed pup used for filtering running it two hours or four provides adequate filtration. running more than necessary would seem to be wasteful

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It sounds like dealers and spa techs have weighed in on the subject, so maybe I'll add the perspective of a consumer.

I believe that Arctic tubs are very well made, quality tubs. I think their promotinal material may be very persuasive for the first time spa buyer - not so sure about most experienced tub owners. In my market, I thought that they were overpriced relative to their competition, but I cannot say what the situation may be in other parts of the country as I haven't shopped there.

Also, I do have a quibblle or two regarding Arctic. The wate heat recovery system sounds like it works well, but there is a down side. It is great when the temprature outside is 30 degrees, but what about when it is 70, 80 degrees or more? That waste heat from the pumps running to filter the water is still trapped in the cabinet and heating the water. In somecases, heating it higher than the owners want. In fact, Arctic even sells a couple of work arounds for this problem. You can purchase an "Arctic Chiller", essentially an air conditioner for the over heated spa cabinet. Alternatively, you can replace one or more of the standard wall panels with vented panels that allow the air to escape. As an engineer, I find it better to prevent problems, rather than create them then try to fix them so this would be a concern for me.

Also, I understand that Arctic relies very heavily on costly, proprietary parts. If a replacement is needed, you must go to Arctic and pay whatever they charge to get it or do without.

I know that there are happy Arctic tub owners and as I said, I believe they build a quality tub. I think many would find that the premium price they charge, at least in my market, is not justified.

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Not an owner, but was recently just shown details on the 2011 Arctics that supposedly address the issue of retaining too much heat with the heatlock you mention. Ill share. Not sure what I think about it, and I didnt actually SEE it, just was told that to address the issue of them retaining heat TOO well ins ummer, they are actually creating a one way vent to the outside that will utilize the ame idea as a p-trap in plumbing. Something along those lines.

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Lets call it what it truely is "waste warmth" It creates R-Factor inside the cabinet. While it will boost the temp up a notch or 2 when the outside ambient is in the 60-70's it will do nothing more than create a higher r-factor in the 30's and below, prime tubbing time. Then there's that pesky other 20 hours a day that the pump and heater is kicking on and off all day, or no, I mean almost all day! Every day!

But alas, I guess you could over filter your water and work on the premature failure of the pumps even more than the hot environment it already lives in. Then your saving tons of dough!! Come on guys they are a fine tub, but don't spin it here. Be happy with the fine rating.

I'm sorry I'm just not buying none of it! I have said before that Arctic is a fine tub, IMO not one of MY (notice the caps) top 5 but close. I base my opinion on several factors and there is never a sales pitch involved because I have heard them all. I love the cedar cabinet. I love the ease of repair (but for an experienced tech no biggy) The forever floor is awesome, but there's others that are just as awesome with a different name. The waste heat concept is phony, all jet pumps produce waste heat and it's a wash whether to vent it to create a more effecient motor, or utilize it to create r-factor, but I guess you could create r-factor by simply using more insulation! I don't like the confining seating, or the slightly higher price tag than some even better tubs out there.

OK enough sorry.

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Not an owner, but was recently just shown details on the 2011 Arctics that supposedly address the issue of retaining too much heat with the heatlock you mention. Ill share. Not sure what I think about it, and I didnt actually SEE it, just was told that to address the issue of them retaining heat TOO well ins ummer, they are actually creating a one way vent to the outside that will utilize the ame idea as a p-trap in plumbing. Something along those lines.

A p-trap in plumbing uses a small amount of water to STOP the flow of air back up the drain! Hmmmmmmm I will have to see the dynamics of it in order to understand if it's spin or a viable solution.

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Not an owner, but was recently just shown details on the 2011 Arctics that supposedly address the issue of retaining too much heat with the heatlock you mention. Ill share. Not sure what I think about it, and I didnt actually SEE it, just was told that to address the issue of them retaining heat TOO well ins ummer, they are actually creating a one way vent to the outside that will utilize the ame idea as a p-trap in plumbing. Something along those lines.

A p-trap in plumbing uses a small amount of water to STOP the flow of air back up the drain! Hmmmmmmm I will have to see the dynamics of it in order to understand if it's spin or a viable solution.

I knew Id do a bad job of explaining it. No water, just utlizing difference in density of hot vs cold air utilizing a small pipe shaped similarly to a ptrap.. Dont quote me, just know that I was told that there was solution to that in the 2011's coming out. My apologies.

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