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Please Learn From My Mistakes And Medical Bills.


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To anybody out there that might be wondering what the consequences might be if you choose not to heed the advice of this board, listen to a little story I have to say.

Two weeks ago I picked up a 5 y/o marquis spirit, 2 person 170 gal tub. Got it via a divorce sale from a coworker for $500. It had been left unattended for a few months so there was pea soup in it when drained to be transported to my home. I have never owned a hot tub so I figured I would go to the local marquis dealer to buy some supplies and get a crash course on tub maintenance, of course I left ringing up a $150 bill with her recommended start up kit. I knew the plumbing would be a little dirty due to the lack of maintenance so I picked up some jet clean, she said to follow the instructions on the bottle and I would be good. After running the jet clean for 3 hours I drained and filled the tub and dropped in the Spa Frog she sold me on. I figured I was clean, sanitized, and ready to tub.

The next day and for the following week I noticed a huge amount of what I now know was biofilm. I spoke to the store owner about the "stuff" coming from my plumbing and asked her if I should run another course of jet clean, she said it had done it's job and I should just drain and refill the tub a few times to clean in out. She never mentioned the word biofilm or any need for superchlorination. For that week I figured the Spa frog with its mineral pack was sanitizing my tub I just scooped out the biofilm with a leaf skimmer and continued to enjoy the tub.

A couple of days later I bought an ozonator from the store for $200. I knew I was a steep markup but I wanted to give them the business so I would have a resource to rely upon when I had questions. So after buying the ozone from them I had some questions about it and the owner told me she didn't know the answer and I should research it online, well I could have bought it online for $65 cheeper than she sold it to me for, what did I give here that money for? Anyways through that search I found this forum and learned that I had A MUCH BIGGER PROBLEM than she told me about. I learned that my 3 y/o daughter was getting a case of hot tub rash.

I found Nitro's decontamination technique a followed it to the tee. My tub has three zones of jets and I ran each zone for four 30 minute periods over 24 hours to break up the biofilm. I also ran each zone for 30 minutes while super chlorinating. I finished this about 3 days ago the tub is up to temp and it looks like the bio film issue has been resolved. luckily my daughters case of hot tub rash in getting better. Unfortunately I am getting some unusual skin conditions. My ear canals are inflamed with pustules near the ear drum, just got back from my doctors office with ear drops and oral antibiotics. This is a superficial bacterial skin infection. I was actually hopeing I had a inner ear infection I didn't want this to be from my hot tub. As you can imagine my wife is mortified and want's nothing to do with the tub.

Thanks to all that share there knowledge on this forum. I have much to learn and now know I don't have to pay huge markups at a spa store for misinformation. I have decided to follow waterbears 3 step bromide technique. Trust me I will do this as instructed, I know the consequences of not keeping things sanitized properly. I have read a few people on this board tout alternative sanitizers such as I was once thinking of doing. Please only do this if you are the only person using the tub. I don't feel near as bad about my ears as I do about my daughters rash. I'm glad she got over it quickly with no complaints. If you let other people use your tub you have a responsibility to make sure it is safe.

The biofilm issue seems to be better know. The tub itself looks to be in good condition. Motor and heater are strong, no leaks with the tub, pumps, or seals. The prior owner did not maintain chemistry properly he simply threw trichlor in from time to time and changed the water every 3 or 4 weeks. I would assume this is why there was such an established colony of biofilm in the plumbing.

I want to decontaminated 1 more time to be sure I have the nasties out. If I wanted to go nuclear with nitro's decontamination technique what would be the longest amount of time I could leave the super chlorinated water in before doing any damage to the tub. I was thinking 6 hours would be safe for the tub and sure to sanitize it.

Any comments or advice would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Im sure you well see me on the board allot in the future. Just remember I am Itchy and Scratchy due to poor water chemistry. Don't let this happen to you or your loved ones.

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Great post! Good luck to you, and I'm sure you'll enjoy you tub for many years. I've gotten religion too and recently switched to 3-step bromine after using an "alternative" sanitizer. For anyone reading this, don't mess with alternative sanitizers or try to rely solely on ozone! Biofilms are very hard to kill. The bacteria forms a colony that has more resistance to sanitizer than free-floating bacteria does. Sounds like you've done the right thing with the decontamination procedure.

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Waterbear, This tub has me a bit scared. I think the biofilm issue is cleared up but who know since I cant see the plumbing. I am going to do another round of decontamination. I want to hit it hard, how long could I leave the superchlorinated water in the tub? I was planing to spa flush - superchlorinate -spa flush again. Maybe overkill but I want peace of mind. I am not useing the tub again untill I get my taylor kit and all 3 step supplies.

Any advice would be appreciated, have pity on a misinformed newbie. Time to drop the ears with antibiotics again. Itchy and Scratchy.

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For all those people trying to limit sanitizer because they are afraid of chlorine or Bromine I think this is a good example (and luckily turned out to not not the worst that can happen) by not keeping sanitizer levels at proper levels. Some scary stuff can happen and EPA approved sanitizer is much less potentially dangerous than all those other non approved methods.

It is not worth the risk to "try" them IMO.

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A few years ago on this forum was a post from a gentleman that now has heart issues, serious ones, from getting sick from using an unsanitary spa. he was not told how to do it correctly, and if I remember right, was relying on strictly ozone. he almost died, and now can barely do anything

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As described in this post, Stacy contracted Legionnaire's Disease from a hotel hot tub. In this thread, Martin describes how he got hot tub lung using AquaFinesse™.

Because having an unsanitary spa does not guarantee that one will get sick, some people are fooled or lulled into complacency. They do not understand that this isn't about certainty for any given spa but is about statistical probabilities. The odds of getting sick from a properly sanitized spa plunge to very, very low probabilities. Yes, there is a very small increase in long-term risk from chlorinated and brominated disinfection by-products but this risk seems to be on the order of 1 in 100,000 to 1,000,000 for lifetime exposure in the commercial/public high bather-load cases which might translate to residential spas (though probably not to residential pools that are much lower in bather-load).

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  • 2 months later...

I just wanted to update my post to let all know how the decontamination turned out. I have had the tub for 3 months now and not a single problem after the decontamination. I ended up spa flushing twice for 2 - 24 hour periods and superchlorinated for 6 hours with the jets running in between each flush. Probably overkill but I would recomended doing this with any used tub.

If anybody out there is contemplating buying a used tub don't let the bugs scare you off. They can be dealt with. This tub looks showroom new and I got it $4500 discounted. The two weeks of decon and water chemistry lesson was worth the price.

Any newbies getting a tub. I highly recommend following ALL of waterbears 3 step bromine process. Get the Taylor test kit. I have not had cloudy water once 9 weeks into my fill on this 180 gal tub that gets 6 hours use a week. That is truely a testament as to how well 3 step can work for anybody.

All you need for safe, silky, hot water is here on this forum. Come on in the waters fine.

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  • 1 month later...

This is another example of why it is so critical that homeowners test their spa regularly. It insures that your spa is sanitized properly and all of the alternatives that are pushed are a waste of money. I would like to say however to itchy and scratchy you have had a bad experience with a local dealer and that is something that I hate to hear it hurts all of us in the pool and spa business when we have dealers who are giving bad info out. I would still not rule out finding a reputable shop in your area. the information you can get from a knowledgable shop with a water analysis lab is invaluable. most of these types of stores can also give you a printout of instructions based on your water condition. Im glad to hear that you got it cleared up and your wife should not have any reason to be concerned as long as you maintain a sanitizer rezidual.

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  • 10 months later...

Make sure to cleanse your filter regularly as well. I've found over the years that a weekly filter cleaning helps to reduce the amount of sanitizer I need to keep myPPM levels up. The more often you clean your filter, the EASIER it is to clean as well. I have two that I swap out - one gets hit with the filter cleanser and dries out while I'm using the other.

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  • 2 months later...

I had a large spa in the 80s, used a Bromine floater, rarely tested water, no one had ever thought about biofilm, white mold or Leagionaires disease. Parties, fun, no prob. Twenty-five years pass, and a month ago I bought a more basic, small 190 gal spa, and being very eco conscious now, immediately tried an alternative enzyme method that claimed you only needed to shock with chlorine every few weeks - "if" the water started smelling funky. He told me to do the initial flush, but said opening the air jets wasn't necessary, "just let the water circulate". Big mistake. Without opening the airjets, no yellow gunk even emerged... I figured the spa pipes were obviously clean, and filled the spa and added his "Natural Solution". Within 4 days the 100 degree water smelled like mildew. I ran out and bought dichlor and shocked it, and a couple days later (the spa now only one week old) saw white mold flakes... only recognized because I was madly researching online. I ran down to my local Leslie's Pools store for more help, and the "expert" there said he'd never heard of white water mold. Whaaaa???

In the meantime, I spent another $100 on enzymes and even sphagnum moss filters, which are supposed to clear biofilm. I do know about sphagnum moss and constructed wetlands being used successfully to clean grey water and even black water. But what I didn't think of was: sphagnum moss may naturally clean biofilm in COLD water, and constructed wetlands filter COLD water. But in every natural hot spring I've visited, either the water comes out almost boiling and is cooled and is flowing - so constantly changing water - or there's some strong minerals, salts, like sulphur, etc... naturally co-existing which kills bacteria, and it's usually so strong you can smell it. In other words, even in nature, the bacteria is killed or can't form. So that was my big "ah ha" moment. More like a "oh, duh" moment.

I didn't know about the Taylor kit yet, so - using a Home Depot drop test kit, I flushed the airjets for a day, yellow gunk came out all over the place, then I shocked the spa with "red-orange" levels of chlorine. Since I couldn't measure above 5ppm I had no idea what it was... and while leaning over examining and describing the white mold to someone on the phone, I inhaled chlorine gas and got quite sick, for a long enough period that friends sent me to ER. A friend's father had died last summer from inhaling high levels of chlorine gas. I didn't die, but was quite sick for a day and felt very foolish. I returned home to my mold and my cheap test kit.

Not knowing where to take it from here, I called the dealer. He told me any chlorine above 10ppm would hurt the spa, and told me to maintain 10ppm dichlor at 80 degrees for 2-5 days, run the jets constantly and every 20 minutes physically clean all mold out of the filter. I did it... including standing there and scooping whatever appeared on the surface. At least there were no fumes at 80 degrees. This sounds silly, but it occurred to me that you use vinegar to kill other mold, so I was also dipping the filter in white vinegar prior to the cleaner and hosing it off, just to make sure it was dying. I'm not recommending this method - it was grueling. And I have yet to learn if it worked.

The spa seemed improved, became usable again, I found this forum, but with no reliable test kit or "method" to my madness, all the levels were all over the place... Ph and Chlorine levels wildly fluctuating, alkaline out of control, and 'possible' white mold appearing when chlorine levels fell. Or was I imagining it...? I read this same thread which I'm now posting in - and the reality of contracting grave illnesses or even dying due to holding onto principles and assumptions really hit me. I feel a bit like Itchy and Scratchy in learning the hard/dumb way that if we soak in hot water in which bacteria is left to multiply exponentially... we'll likely get sick before we ever get relaxed and have fun :-). So my first reminder was: germs like warm, moist, dark places. Basically, a spa.

The Taylor K-2006 test kit finally arrived, plus a second filter and the short list in Nitro's Water Maintenance... Waterbear is helping me simplify my approach, balance water and calmed me down re white mold (could it 'possibly' be my own skin shedding???). I'm doing Nitro's dichlor/bleach method and I feel like I might get this yet. What's funny is - I'm highly educated but always avoided chemistry like the plague... and now I'm motivated to FINALLY start understanding basic chemistry concepts. And this 'touchy feely artist-type' is learning to be methodical because it's important.

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  • 3 months later...

We bought a new hot tub about 7 months ago and my husband started having skin rashes almost immediately. We test our water weekly, and clean the filter each week before testing and adjusting alkalinity and pH (both always needing weekly adjusting up), then shock with a chlorine based hot tub granule (only once a week). These chlorine granules are also added after each tub use. Once a month we take a sample into the dealer we bought our tub from and she always tells us there's too much sanitizer, but when we try to lower it, the water goes cloudy (milky) within 24 hrs. The only thing I can think of is there are some nasties in there the sanitizer doesn't get? I suspect we're using too much chemical, but we don't know how to reduce down to keep alkalinity and pH in the proper range.

We are ready to do our second empty and re-fill, but before we do that, I want to be sure the tub and jets are sanitized so that the new water going in doesn't get 'contaminated' from residuals from the water we're draining. The tub is so new, and we've followed the instructions given to us by the dealer... is it really this difficult to figure out and maintain a hot tub???

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The stickies at the top of this forum may be helpful:

Decontamination, but use Spa System Flush first before super-chlorinating.

Dichlor/bleach Method In A Nutshell, but lower the TA to 50 ppm, not 80 ppm, and add 50 ppm Borates.

Also, get yourself your own good test kit, the Taylor K-2006 test kit you can get from Amazon (Amato Industries).

It isn't hard to maintain a spa when done properly. What is your spa size in gallons? How many people use the spa at the same time? How often are people using the spa (days/week) and for how long (minutes) each time?

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The stickies at the top of this forum may be helpful:

Decontamination, but use Spa System Flush first before super-chlorinating.

Dichlor/bleach Method In A Nutshell, but lower the TA to 50 ppm, not 80 ppm, and add 50 ppm Borates.

Also, get yourself your own good test kit, the Taylor K-2006 test kit you can get from Amazon (Amato Industries).

It isn't hard to maintain a spa when done properly. What is your spa size in gallons? How many people use the spa at the same time? How often are people using the spa (days/week) and for how long (minutes) each time?

First, let me say I've learned so much from this forum in the past 24 hrs! At this point I am skeptical that the tests done by the salesperson is truly accurate... I'm very grateful for any help/suggestions. Tub was our 20th wedding anniversary gift to each other and I want to get this figured out so we can enjoy it!

Yes, going to get the Taylor k_2006 kit ASAP so we can test the water here at home. Ordering it today.

To respond to your questions: spa size is 362 US gallons (1370 Litres). Lately I'm the only person getting in - usually 25 to 40 min daily, sometimes twice a day (only one to two days a week for pain management). Water temp currently at 101oF.

Had the water tested today at the place we bought our tub.

Here's the values:

TA 160 ppm

pH 7.5

CH 200 ppm

FC 12.0 ppm

We have been trying to reduce the dichlor, but each time we do, the tub clouds up sometimes the next day. We are at the point of needing to do a drain and fill but need to find a product to clean the pipes and jets of any biofilm, etc, as you've recommended. Also trying to figure out where to get the products I see people recommending (ie Borates, Flush). We're trying to figure out if we need to go really drastic with the decon as described as it's usually only the two of us in the tub.

Today we added 74 gr of oxidizer (from spa dealer) and circulated for 15 min; added clean water to raise water level and to lower TA; added 50 gr of a water softener (from spa dealer to help with pH bounce)and circulated 15 min on foot jets then 15 min on side jets; added 2 tbsp of stain & scale inhibitor to bring down CH circulated 15 min floor jets then 15 min side jets. No dichlor added as FC so high. The cover has been off for the last two-three hours.

I feel like we're using too much chemical - are those oxidizers & softeners really necessary to use? Can we now start using 6% liquid chlorine instead of adding more dichlor? I wouldn't add anything until after using the tub tonight.

Thanks for the advice and tips! Truly appreciated!!

P.F.

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Your TA and CH are high which can contribute to some cloudiness from calcium carbonate though it's more likely that your continued use of Dichlor over 7 months (did you ever change the water during that time?) has built up the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) so high as to render the chlorine nearly ineffective. So bather waste builds up and clouds the water. Your keeping the FC higher is barely able to overcome the high CYA level.

You can wait until you get the test kit to confirm whether or not your CYA level is very high. Or you can just assume that it is in which case you would add SeaKlear Spa System Flush you can get online from a variety of sources (just Google it) if you can't find it at a local spa dealer. The main reason for using this is that if you never decontaminated your new spa, we don't know what's in it and you might as well start fresh in good shape. After you add Spa System Flush following the directions, then you would add chlorine bleach to superchlorinate and then dump that water and refill to start fresh.

You would then use the Dichlor-then-bleach method. You would lower the TA first by adding acid and aerating with the jets. As for the borates, you can get 20 Mule Team Borax from the grocery store along with dry acid or you can get boric acid (which is close to pH neutral) either directly from sources such as AAA Chemicals, The Chemistry Store or Duda Diesel. To get 50 ppm Borates in 362 gallons, you need 14 ounces weight of boric acid (you can use The Pool Calculator to calculate dosages) so roughly 1 pound (you can overshoot a little -- that's OK). Since you would do this on each refill, you can order larger quantities if you like. Or you could see if your spa store has Proteam Gentle Spa which is mostly boric acid, but it's usually more expensive.

As for what to do between now and when you get your test kit, the Spa System Flush, and other products, you can switch to using regular unscented bleach (or if an off-brand it's often called Ultra bleach for the higher strength) so you don't continue to build up CYA.

Note that the Spa System Flush should be a one-time thing. The boric acid is for every water change and you'll probably use acid to lower the TA for every water change. After that, you only use Dichlor initially and then bleach and occasional acid to maintain the pH. That's it. No need for clarifiers, softeners, enzymes or regular shocking.

One person soaking for 25-40 minutes would require around 1.5-2.3 ounces of Dichlor or 2.1-3.3 fluid ounces of 6% bleach (1.5-2.4 fluid ounces of 8.25% bleach) to oxidize your bather waste, though technically you add whatever amount you need after your soak so that you have at least a 1-2 ppm FC reading at the start of your next soak.

Since you are only using the spa one or two times a week, then if you use chlorine you will need to add it in between your soaks, at least every other day or so (maybe only once a week in between your once a week soaks). If you want less maintenance, then you can consider using the 3-step bromine system instead since the bromine tabs would provide a background level of bromine in between your soaks. Or you can use a saltwater chlorine generator (ControlOMatic Technichlor) to provide a background level of chlorine and then use Dichlor-then-bleach for your dosing after your soak (the chlorine generator "boost" wouldn't be enough to handle your higher bather load and by using separate chlorine you dose, you extend the life of the chlorine generator).

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Thank you for the great info! Starting to feel less confused.

So now, we will be adding 6% bleach (following #of bather-hours) after bathing instead of the dichlor since the FC is high enough. I get in every day - sometimes twice a day, and added dichlor afterwards - now realizing way too much!

Our last empty and fill was 3.5 months ago and we know it's time to do that again so we'll be doing the Spa system flush then the decontamination as you described, then follow the dichlor and bleach program as noted.

Dealer has us adding a product once a week that oxidizes contaminants, aids the filtration system, and helps the filter catch more contaminants and debris (she calls it a 'clumper'. It contains peroxysulfate). Should this still be part of our once a week maintenance program when we clean the filter?

Glad to be finding more natural and less expensive alternatives to chemicals for the hot tub!

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You shouldn't need to be using the peroxysulfate (aka potassium monopersulfate) non-chlorine shock product once you are on the Dichlor-then-bleach method. The chlorine should be enough to keep the water clean. The same is true for using a clarifier product -- it shouldn't be needed. Of course, the cleaner you are when you get into the spa the less work there is for the filtration system to clear it.

The main problem you were having was continued use of Dichlor-only. The water won't last as long when you do that because the buildup of CYA makes the chlorine less effective so it slows down its oxidation (and disinfection) rate to the point where it's not able to keep up so the water turns dull/cloudy.

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  • 1 year later...
  • 5 months later...
  • 3 months later...

Hot tubs are a bacterial incubator if you don't use proper sanitation.

never ever do this.

you can become very sick and even catch an infection. biofilm is not a good term, it makes it sound better than it is! in reality its festering bacteria , and inoculation of airborne bacteria into warm nutrient rich environment and grow and become toxic.

always use at least bromine and an ozonator

Mark Alexander Director, SuperHotTubs (tech)

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I don't think anyone was suggesting not to disinfect the spa. The Serum Total Cleanse is effective as a surfactant to remove greases and biofilms from surfaces, but after that one must use a disinfectant in the spa such as chlorine or bromine or Nature2 with MPS which are all EPA-approved disinfectants for spas.

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  • 1 year later...

I had a large spa in the 80s, used a Bromine floater, rarely tested water, no one had ever thought about biofilm, white mold or Leagionaires disease. Parties, fun, no prob. Twenty-five years pass, and a month ago I bought a more basic, small 190 gal spa, and being very eco conscious now, immediately tried an alternative enzyme method that claimed you only needed to shock with chlorine every few weeks - "if" the water started smelling funky. He told me to do the initial flush, but said opening the air jets wasn't necessary, "just let the water circulate". Big mistake. Without opening the airjets, no yellow gunk even emerged... I figured the spa pipes were obviously clean, and filled the spa and added his "Natural Solution". Within 4 days the 100 degree water smelled like mildew. I ran out and bought dichlor and shocked it, and a couple days later (the spa now only one week old) saw white mold flakes... only recognized because I was madly researching online. I ran down to my local Leslie's Pools store for more help, and the "expert" there said he'd never heard of white water mold. Whaaaa???

In the meantime, I spent another $100 on enzymes and even sphagnum moss filters, which are supposed to clear biofilm. I do know about sphagnum moss and constructed wetlands being used successfully to clean grey water and even black water. But what I didn't think of was: sphagnum moss may naturally clean biofilm in COLD water, and constructed wetlands filter COLD water. But in every natural hot spring I've visited, either the water comes out almost boiling and is cooled and is flowing - so constantly changing water - or there's some strong minerals, salts, like sulphur, etc... naturally co-existing which kills bacteria, and it's usually so strong you can smell it. In other words, even in nature, the bacteria is killed or can't form. So that was my big "ah ha" moment. More like a "oh, duh" moment.

I didn't know about the Taylor kit yet, so - using a Home Depot drop test kit, I flushed the airjets for a day, yellow gunk came out all over the place, then I shocked the spa with "red-orange" levels of chlorine. Since I couldn't measure above 5ppm I had no idea what it was... and while leaning over examining and describing the white mold to someone on the phone, I inhaled chlorine gas and got quite sick, for a long enough period that friends sent me to ER. A friend's father had died last summer from inhaling high levels of chlorine gas. I didn't die, but was quite sick for a day and felt very foolish. I returned home to my mold and my cheap test kit.

Not knowing where to take it from here, I called the dealer. He told me any chlorine above 10ppm would hurt the spa, and told me to maintain 10ppm dichlor at 80 degrees for 2-5 days, run the jets constantly and every 20 minutes physically clean all mold out of the filter. I did it... including standing there and scooping whatever appeared on the surface. At least there were no fumes at 80 degrees. This sounds silly, but it occurred to me that you use vinegar to kill other mold, so I was also dipping the filter in white vinegar prior to the cleaner and hosing it off, just to make sure it was dying. I'm not recommending this method - it was grueling. And I have yet to learn if it worked.

The spa seemed improved, became usable again, I found this forum, but with no reliable test kit or "method" to my madness, all the levels were all over the place... Ph and Chlorine levels wildly fluctuating, alkaline out of control, and 'possible' white mold appearing when chlorine levels fell. Or was I imagining it...? I read this same thread which I'm now posting in - and the reality of contracting grave illnesses or even dying due to holding onto principles and assumptions really hit me. I feel a bit like Itchy and Scratchy in learning the hard/dumb way that if we soak in hot water in which bacteria is left to multiply exponentially... we'll likely get sick before we ever get relaxed and have fun :-). So my first reminder was: germs like warm, moist, dark places. Basically, a spa.

The Taylor K-2006 test kit finally arrived, plus a second filter and the short list in Nitro's Water Maintenance... Waterbear is helping me simplify my approach, balance water and calmed me down re white mold (could it 'possibly' be my own skin shedding???). I'm doing Nitro's dichlor/bleach method and I feel like I might get this yet. What's funny is - I'm highly educated but always avoided chemistry like the plague... and now I'm motivated to FINALLY start understanding basic chemistry concepts. And this 'touchy feely artist-type' is learning to be methodical because it's important.

Thank you for this. My husband is determined to use up granual chlorine and today decided to boiled in the enclosed house. Ive been sick and so have our animals. He said oh, Im over reacting. So I printed this to show him. AND HE HAS COPD, Asthma, and sleep apnea. I cracked windows, even though he said " the air conditioner is on!" It ventalated finally. But for hours you could smell it. He boiled in to liquify it because the granuals do not melt completely in the tub. I am ordering liquids now. HIding the granuals, since he is being the know it all hard head. lol! Anyway, thanks for this because maybe it will help. Don't want to hurt us or our animals! UGH!!!

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