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Alternative Maintenance?


Prov31Mom23

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I would like to know what alternatives to the packaged chemicals exist for spa maintenance. I refuse to use bromine or chlorine because of the health problems they cause. I need to do this as inexpensively as possible. Our pH is high and I'd like to reduce it but cannot find how to do that (we don't have any pH decrease and I don't know how much it costs or what chemicals comprise it). I'd love to hear about home-based alternatives and how one determines how much is needed and when.

Please don't tell me that the chemicals at the pool store are my only option - I buck the system in MANY areas of my life so I don't buy that. I'm sure that people managed to maintain pools and hot tubs years ago prior to the development of these more convenient methods. I don't mind exchanging a little inconvenience for better health!

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I would like to know what alternatives to the packaged chemicals exist for spa maintenance. I refuse to use bromine or chlorine because of the health problems they cause. I need to do this as inexpensively as possible. Our pH is high and I'd like to reduce it but cannot find how to do that (we don't have any pH decrease and I don't know how much it costs or what chemicals comprise it). I'd love to hear about home-based alternatives and how one determines how much is needed and when.

This is determined by testing the water, plain and simple. You need a test kit but first you have to decide on the sanitizer you want to use because that will determine which test kit you need. Also, a test kit is not the place to try and save money. In the long run a good test kit will save money and make your tub maintenance much easier.

Please don't tell me that the chemicals at the pool store are my only option - I buck the system in MANY areas of my life so I don't buy that.

Pool store is certainly not your only option. As I explain below, many spa chemicals can be found in grocery and hardware stores and are pretty common household items, some of which you already might have on hand.

I'm sure that people managed to maintain pools and hot tubs years ago prior to the development of these more convenient methods.

And if you talk to someone old enough they can tell you about all the public swimming pools being closed to limit the spread of polio, which is a fecal matter disease. Water borne illnesses are nothing to take lightly!

I don't mind exchanging a little inconvenience for better health!

Then you need to educate yourself a bit more about what 'healthy" water in a spa or pool really is!

IF health is your main concern then you want to make sure your water is sanitized properly. There are only four sanitizers that work in spas, they are chlorine, bromine, silver/MPS, and biguanide/peroxide. Water borne illnesses in hot jobs are not a joke and range from pseudomonas infections (hot tub itch) , Legionnaires' disease, and various respiratory and enteric infections from fecal matter that is constantly introduced by bathers no matter how clean you THINK you are. The elevated temperatures and small water to bather ratio can turn a spa into bacterial soup in literally minutes.

pH is reduced by acid. Usual choices are muriatic acid, and dry acid (sodium bisulfate) which is usually called pH decreaser. When dissolved in water it forms sulfuric acid. These acids are strong acids, chemically speaking. This has to do with their dissociation constants and not with how dangerous they are. Weak (chemically speaking) acids are not going to be effective at controlling pH so don't even think about using vinegar (acetic acid). pH decreaser is not very expensive and muriatic acid costs even less but is not as convenient to use in a spa.

Good news is that most spa chemicals are commonly available at the grocery or hardware store so the pool store is certainly NOT your only options but there are some speciality chemicals you might need from them (such as metal sequestrant if you have metals in your fill water or stabilizer,cyanuric acid--which is NOT cyanide as some websites selling ionizers would lead you to believe-- if you are using chlorine). Alkalinity increaser is sodium bicarbonate (aka sodium hydrogen carbonate) which is plain old baking soda. pH increase is sodium carbonate which is washing soda but borax, sodium tetraborate, is a better choice for raising pH since it does not increase total alkalinity like sodium carbonate. Both of these can be found in the laundry aisle of the grocery. Muriatic acid is found in most hardware stores and big box stores. Chlorine is as far away as the laundry aisle. Plain, unscented chlorine bleach.

If you are truly into alternative cleaning then you probably already have washing soda and borax at home and possibly muriatic acid. You also probably have baking soda in the kitchen or medicine cabinet.

There are no 'alternative' santizers that work on their own. Copper/silver based systems put toxic heavy metals in your water and are not safe, even if you want to sugar coat them and call them mineral systems! We are still talking about toxic heavy metals here. They have kill times that are too slow to protect against water borne illnesses in a hot tub anyway. FWIW, copper is a registered pesticide.

Ozone is not residual and is quite toxic if allowed to accumulate and can be irritant at lower concentrations..

"Nascent oxygen" is psuedoscience and a scam, as are magnets and 'resonators'. If you are thinking along these lines perhaps I could interest you in some swampland in the Everglades and a tin foil hat to protect you from space aliens.rolleyes.gif

Salt water systems ARE chlorine (or bromine). It's just made in your tub from electrolysis of salt or sodium bromide.

UV is not residual so it is not a primary santizer

Hydrogen peroxide, at concentrations strong enough to sanitizer, would cause some bather discomfort to say the least. Also,we are not talking about the 3% stuff (10 volume) you get at the drugstore or even the 20 volume (6%) stuff used to color and bleach hair. We are talking about 100-130 volume peroxide that is used as a rocket fuel and is not only extremely dangerous to store (can you say explosive?) but will burn if it gets on your skin and blind you if it gets in your eyes.

With all that being said, chlorine is your safest choice if you want to avoid water borne illnesses (a very real thing, btw). The hype about chlorine being dangerous and causing cancer has to do with volitile oxidation byproducts that are found in unstabilized indoor pools with inadequete air handlers and not applicable to hot tubs and outdoor pools, btw. Bromine is the second choice and is much easier to use than chlorine but a bit more expensive.

If you want to buck the establishment then by all means fill you tub with raw sewage and soak but if you are truly concerned about health issues then use a fast acting residual primary sanitizer. For spas your choices are:

Chlorine (actually hypochlorous acid)

Bromine (actually hypobromous acid)

Silver/Potassium monopersulfate (MPS) with weekly (or more often if needed) chlorine shocking

Biguanide (PHMB) with hydrogen peroxide oxidizer and the willingness to put up with cloudy water, white water mold, and pink slime outbreaks from time to time.

I know this is not what you want to hear but it is the truth.

If this does not convince you how about this quote from the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health:

Hot tubs probably pose the greatest risk of contracting an infectious illness from water. The warm and stagnant water invites certain heavy contamination by bacteria, fungi and viruses. Hot-tub safety mandates monitoring chlorine and pH levels, as well as draining and cleaning the tub regularly and properly.

It is interesting that the CDC only mentions chlorine in this safe hot tubbing fact sheet. I wonder why?cool.gif

Finally, if this write up on diseases from hot tubs doesn't convince you about proper sanitation of your water then, at least, do not let your children, neighbors, friends, and family use the tub. Please don't risk the health and safety of innocent people.

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BTW, did you finally have an electrician come out and wire your dreammaker tub properly or did you go against all the advice you got and use the extension cord? I do ask for a reason.

Well, it's like this...

I finally got in touch with the manufacturer and was told repeatedly that short-term, based on the extension cord we were planning to use (not a normal household extension cord) and based on the tub having its own circuit breaker, it would be okay to use for a couple of months. Despite that being the answer I wanted to hear, I also called him several more times to confirm that we were both talking about the same thing and that I truly wasn't running any risk in doing this for a short period of time. He assured me again and again that it would be fine. In the meantime, we were given the money to install the line for Christmas and I am in the process of getting somebody to come out to do the work.

What's your reason?

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You've answered it, thank you.

Also, if you still refuse to use chlorine or bromine to sanitize your water the only alternative is a biguanide/peroxide system. However, be aware that you WILL need to get this from the pool/spa supply, it is the most expensive system you can use, and it tends to have the most problems. Also check with the spa manufacturer whether you can use it in your spa as it attacks some plastics used in spa construction to make sure it will not damage your spa. Many manufacturers forbid its use for this reason.

Also, Chlorine has been used in recreational water for almost 100 years now. it was first used in 1922 at a public beach in Washington DC. where a boat distributed chlorine in the water. Prior to this water borne illnesses were a major health problem. Hot tubs have only been around for less than 60 years. They appeared in the 50s. Hope this answers your questions on how

... people managed to maintain pools and hot tubs years ago prior to the development of these more convenient methods. I don't mind exchanging a little inconvenience for better health!

Basically, they used chlorine from the start to ensure better health.

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This is determined by testing the water, plain and simple. You need a test kit but first you have to decide on the sanitizer you want to use because that will determine which test kit you need. Also, a test kit is not the place to try and save money. In the long run a good test kit will save money and make your tub maintenance much easier.

Are you referring to the test strips that I use several times a week to check things? Or is there something else that I don't know about?

I don't mind exchanging a little inconvenience for better health!

Then you need to educate yourself a bit more about what 'healthy" water in a spa or pool really is!

Well, my idea of a healthy spa is not one filled with chemicals that are known to inhibit thyroid function - especially with a husband with thyroid cancer and my three daughters and myself hypothyroid. So we might be thinking slightly differently about whether things like chlorine and bromine are healthy - you might think they are because they sanitize the water of potentially dangerous elements while I know they aren't because soaking in a tub with them would exacerbate pre-existing and debilitating health conditions for my family. That is why I will NOT use either in my hot tub and why I am looking into a shower filter for our shower - to remove the chlorine that our city puts into it. Clean water means nothing if it is causing problems with our endocrine systems because of the products used to keep it clean.

IF health is your main concern then you want to make sure your water is sanitized properly. There are only four sanitizers that work in spas, they are chlorine, bromine, silver/MPS, and biguanide/peroxide. Water borne illnesses in hot jobs are not a joke and range from pseudomonas infections (hot tub itch) , Legionnaires' disease, and various respiratory and enteric infections from fecal matter that is constantly introduced by bathers no matter how clean you THINK you are. The elevated temperatures and small water to bather ratio can turn a spa into bacterial soup in literally minutes.

Fine. I don't know until I ask, though, do I (and I don't necessarily do things just because I'm told!)? I'm not going to compromise my family's health in pursuit of maintaining it - either way. I won't use chlorine/bromine because it is unhealthy (and it can inhibit thyroid function in healthy people, too) but that doesn't mean I don't want an effective sanitizer. I am trying to do things both to minimize negative health impacts as well as to economize but I won't risk our health in order to economize.

Good news is that most spa chemicals are commonly available at the grocery or hardware store so the pool store is certainly NOT your only options but there are some speciality chemicals you might need from them (such as metal sequestrant if you have metals in your fill water or stabilizer,cyanuric acid--which is NOT cyanide as some websites selling ionizers would lead you to believe-- if you are using chlorine). Alkalinity increaser is sodium bicarbonate (aka sodium hydrogen carbonate) which is plain old baking soda. pH increase is sodium carbonate which is washing soda but borax, sodium tetraborate, is a better choice for raising pH since it does not increase total alkalinity like sodium carbonate. Both of these can be found in the laundry aisle of the grocery. Muriatic acid is found in most hardware stores and big box stores. Chlorine is as far away as the laundry aisle. Plain, unscented chlorine bleach.

If you are truly into alternative cleaning then you probably already have washing soda and borax at home and possibly muriatic acid. You also probably have baking soda in the kitchen or medicine cabinet.

First three, absolutely - and in significant quantities as I use them extensively in cleaning our home. I have several 14 pound bags of baking soda, and boxes of washing soda and borax in addition to gallons of white vinegar on hand most of the time. Muriatic acid - well, we have it but I've never thought if it for other than what we purchased it for - etching a tub before refinishing it. I'm not sure I feel comfortable putting something like that into our spa water. Of course, I don't know quantities - if we're talking teaspoons' worth, then I'm sure the dilution rate makes it much safer! Why is vinegar not acceptable other than being weak? Would you have to add so much that it creates other problems? How would you use the muriatic acid to reduce pH?

Hydrogen peroxide, at concentrations strong enough to sanitizer, would cause some bather discomfort to say the least. Also,we are not talking about the 3% stuff (10 volume) you get at the drugstore or even the 20 volume (6%) stuff used to color and bleach hair. We are talking about 100-130 volume peroxide that is used as a rocket fuel and is not only extremely dangerous to store (can you say explosive?) but will burn if it gets on your skin and blind you if it gets in your eyes.

After posting my question I did more searching online to see if I could answer my own questions. I found several sites that say a 27-30% H202 is effective. I don't even know where I'd find it but after reading the precautions one person has to take with it, I decided it wasn't for my family - my children (all grown - 17-20 years old) are more careless with things than I raised them to be and although I'm the only one who takes care of the hot tub, I don't want to introduce something that seems rather dangerous if not handled properly.

With all that being said, chlorine is your safest choice if you want to avoid water borne illnesses (a very real thing, btw). The hype about chlorine being dangerous and causing cancer has to do with volitile oxidation byproducts that are found in unstabilized indoor pools with inadequete air handlers and not applicable to hot tubs and outdoor pools, btw. Bromine is the second choice and is much easier to use than chlorine but a bit more expensive.

While water-borne illness is a concern, it is not my only health concern as I already explained. The known risk to our health from chlorine/bromine (especially when soaking in it at high temperatures) is greater to me than the possible risk of other health problems, especially since I intend to be meticulous with this hot tub. Meticulous can prevent water-borne problems but not those caused by halogens if the products used contain halogens!

Biguanide (PHMB) with hydrogen peroxide oxidizer and the willingness to put up with cloudy water, white water mold, and pink slime outbreaks from time to time.

This is what we currently use - Soft Soak. So far, water is crystal clear and none of the other problems have occurred. They didn't occur when my mother ran the spa, either. I suppose I'll be back here asking questions if they do. Are they a health risk or more an aesthetic problem?

I know this is not what you want to hear but it is the truth.

Well, ideally, I'd like to hear that I can maintain my hot tub with products I already have at home but ultimately I want to know what works and what doesn't work. I've replaced most household chemicals with equally effective but less toxic alternatives (that usually require more elbow grease) and was hoping to do the same with the hot tub.

It is interesting that the CDC only mentions chlorine in this safe hot tubbing fact sheet. I wonder why?cool.gif

Well, considering my politics, I would speculate it's because they've decided they know best for everybody despite the fact that one size rarely fits all and for them chlorine is best - all other potential health problems it causes aside. They expect everybody to just accept whatever they say as the gospel truth. Unfortunately, they don't know me! :P Homeschooling through high school, homemaking, home-business, anti-vaccination, pro-home-birth, pro-personal responsibility, anti-government involvement in our food supply...I'm not the person they would like as a model citizen. Question everything and resist conformity! That doesn't mean I want to be foolish, though. Just means I like to make informed decisions and to take responsibility for my own actions instead of passing blame to somebody else!

So, now that everybody knows I'm ornery and a pain, let's see if I understand things...

Apparently for my personal hot tub situation, there is nothing I can do alternatively to maintain my hot tub. I have high pH and you say there is no alternative that can be used to decrease it - unless I can deal with muriatic acid and can figure out how to use it safely. Alkalinity is also high so products to raise it are unneeded. No alternative sanitizers...what about shock? You mention hydrogen peroxide as part of the system I'm currently using. Where does it come into play in my system? None of the bottles have ingredients identified. What strength is it in the packaged products?

What about waterline control or products to clean the waterline? Can I at least use vinegar to effectively clean the waterline, which I understand is probably building up because of the high pH? I would ask about baking soda for it but that would contribute to my pH problem. I've read about an enzyme based waterline product - are they effective? Oh - the only time the water has been cloudy is when I clean the waterline. That makes sense to me but the cloudiness disappears pretty quickly. I clean it then begin the weekly maintenance. I figure the sanitizer and other products along with filtering are taking care of the cloudiness. Am I wrong?

More questions about routine maintenance that are not answered in the literature that came with the hot tub...

Filter - how do I clean it? The literature says to rinse under a hose. That doesn't seem adequate to me - is it? Is there something I should soak it in - and how often? How often should a filter be replaced? If not based on time, how do I know when to replace it?

Draining and refilling - different things I've read say to change water anywhere from every six months to every four weeks. I'd love to go as long as I can but what is really a reasonable schedule? How do you know when the water needs to be changed? Is it based on use? Location? Weather? Combo of a variety of circumstances?

I've also read about adding something to the water prior to draining in order to clean the lines. Is this necessary? Important? The literature that came with the hot tub doesn't mention it but it seems logical to me IF the products are effective.

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This is determined by testing the water, plain and simple. You need a test kit but first you have to decide on the sanitizer you want to use because that will determine which test kit you need. Also, a test kit is not the place to try and save money. In the long run a good test kit will save money and make your tub maintenance much easier.

Are you referring to the test strips that I use several times a week to check things? Or is there something else that I don't know about?

Strips really are not adequate for water adjustments. For your bigaunide based system you will need a kit to test for biguanide and peroxide levels and you will probably need another kit to test for pH (preferably with both acid and base demand tests), total alkalinity, and calcium hardness. Both Taylor and LaMotte have good drop based kits but they are not inexpensive.

I don't mind exchanging a little inconvenience for better health!

Then you need to educate yourself a bit more about what 'healthy" water in a spa or pool really is!

Well, my idea of a healthy spa is not one filled with chemicals that are known to inhibit thyroid function - especially with a husband with thyroid cancer and my three daughters and myself hypothyroid. So we might be thinking slightly differently about whether things like chlorine and bromine are healthy - you might think they are because they sanitize the water of potentially dangerous elements while I know they aren't because soaking in a tub with them would exacerbate pre-existing and debilitating health conditions for my family. That is why I will NOT use either in my hot tub and why I am looking into a shower filter for our shower - to remove the chlorine that our city puts into it. Clean water means nothing if it is causing problems with our endocrine systems because of the products used to keep it clean.

Ingested halogens inhibit iodine uptake. There is no evidenct that bathing in them does. You are comparing apples to oranges.

IF health is your main concern then you want to make sure your water is sanitized properly. There are only four sanitizers that work in spas, they are chlorine, bromine, silver/MPS, and biguanide/peroxide. Water borne illnesses in hot jobs are not a joke and range from pseudomonas infections (hot tub itch) , Legionnaires' disease, and various respiratory and enteric infections from fecal matter that is constantly introduced by bathers no matter how clean you THINK you are. The elevated temperatures and small water to bather ratio can turn a spa into bacterial soup in literally minutes.

Fine. I don't know until I ask, though, do I (and I don't necessarily do things just because I'm told!)? I'm not going to compromise my family's health in pursuit of maintaining it - either way. I won't use chlorine/bromine because it is unhealthy (and it can inhibit thyroid function in healthy people, too) but that doesn't mean I don't want an effective sanitizer. I am trying to do things both to minimize negative health impacts as well as to economize but I won't risk our health in order to economize.

FWIW, you have picked the least effective of the sanitizers that work but it does work.

Good news is that most spa chemicals are commonly available at the grocery or hardware store so the pool store is certainly NOT your only options but there are some speciality chemicals you might need from them (such as metal sequestrant if you have metals in your fill water or stabilizer,cyanuric acid--which is NOT cyanide as some websites selling ionizers would lead you to believe-- if you are using chlorine). Alkalinity increaser is sodium bicarbonate (aka sodium hydrogen carbonate) which is plain old baking soda. pH increase is sodium carbonate which is washing soda but borax, sodium tetraborate, is a better choice for raising pH since it does not increase total alkalinity like sodium carbonate. Both of these can be found in the laundry aisle of the grocery. Muriatic acid is found in most hardware stores and big box stores. Chlorine is as far away as the laundry aisle. Plain, unscented chlorine bleach.

If you are truly into alternative cleaning then you probably already have washing soda and borax at home and possibly muriatic acid. You also probably have baking soda in the kitchen or medicine cabinet.

First three, absolutely - and in significant quantities as I use them extensively in cleaning our home. I have several 14 pound bags of baking soda, and boxes of washing soda and borax in addition to gallons of white vinegar on hand most of the time. Muriatic acid - well, we have it but I've never thought if it for other than what we purchased it for - etching a tub before refinishing it. I'm not sure I feel comfortable putting something like that into our spa water. Of course, I don't know quantities - if we're talking teaspoons' worth, then I'm sure the dilution rate makes it much safer! Why is vinegar not acceptable other than being weak? Would you have to add so much that it creates other problems? How would you use the muriatic acid to reduce pH?

Vinegar is a weak (5%)acetic acid solution. Acetic acid, even the concentrated 28% glacial acetic acid which is as dangerous if not more so than 20 baum Muriatic (hydrochloric) acid used in pools and spas, is what is known as a weak acid. This means it does not readily give up its hydrogen atoms, which makes it not very useful for lowering pH. Since it is also an organic acid it might not react well with your biguanide sanitizer. Biguanide does not play well with other chemicals and tends to form a gooey substance on the tub and in the filter when it mixes with incompatible chemicals (halogens, polymeric clarifiers, metals (algaecides), polymeric algaecides, and organic substances. You have to be very careful what you put in a biguanide pool or spa or you run the risk of some very nasty water and a ruined filter.

pH decreaser (sodium bisulfate) is probably your best choice for lowering pH and TA in your spa but it is more expensive than muriatic acid. With muriatic acid we are talking about teaspoons for pH control and ounces for TA control. It is not dangerous if common sense is used but stay downwind of the fumes. The only things it puts into the water is hydrogen and chloride ions. (whoops, there is that evil chlorine again. Better stay away from Table salt too, it's sodium and chloride ions when dissolved in water! just kidding.) Dry acid will add sulfates to your water besies the hydrogen atoms. It forms sulfuric acid when dissolved but is much easier to handle and measure since it is a dry chemical. ALL acids need to be treated with respect, even vinegar! Quantities are determined by using an acid demand test in your test kit, by using a dosing chart, or by using special software that can calculate about how much to put in. The acid demand test is the most accurate way. Realize that I am talking chemistry here, not politics or semantics.

Hydrogen peroxide, at concentrations strong enough to sanitizer, would cause some bather discomfort to say the least. Also,we are not talking about the 3% stuff (10 volume) you get at the drugstore or even the 20 volume (6%) stuff used to color and bleach hair. We are talking about 100-130 volume peroxide that is used as a rocket fuel and is not only extremely dangerous to store (can you say explosive?) but will burn if it gets on your skin and blind you if it gets in your eyes.

After posting my question I did more searching online to see if I could answer my own questions. I found several sites that say a 27-30% H202 is effective. I don't even know where I'd find it but after reading the precautions one person has to take with it, I decided it wasn't for my family - my children (all grown - 17-20 years old) are more careless with things than I raised them to be and although I'm the only one who takes care of the hot tub, I don't want to introduce something that seems rather dangerous if not handled properly.

As you can see, I am not selling you a bill of goods but telling you the truth.

With all that being said, chlorine is your safest choice if you want to avoid water borne illnesses (a very real thing, btw). The hype about chlorine being dangerous and causing cancer has to do with volitile oxidation byproducts that are found in unstabilized indoor pools with inadequete air handlers and not applicable to hot tubs and outdoor pools, btw. Bromine is the second choice and is much easier to use than chlorine but a bit more expensive.

While water-borne illness is a concern, it is not my only health concern as I already explained. The known risk to our health from chlorine/bromine (especially when soaking in it at high temperatures) is greater to me than the possible risk of other health problems, especially since I intend to be meticulous with this hot tub. Meticulous can prevent water-borne problems but not those caused by halogens if the products used contain halogens!

Here I would have to disagree with you and science is on my side. I am not going to debate it here since there is nothing to debate.

Biguanide (PHMB) with hydrogen peroxide oxidizer and the willingness to put up with cloudy water, white water mold, and pink slime outbreaks from time to time.

This is what we currently use - Soft Soak. So far, water is crystal clear and none of the other problems have occurred. They didn't occur when my mother ran the spa, either. I suppose I'll be back here asking questions if they do. Are they a health risk or more an aesthetic problem?

Pink sliime is a cyanobacter and is most definitely a health risk. White water mold is also bacterial. Some bacteria develop an resistance to the biguanide over time and these biofilms take hold. They are very hard to get rid of and often the only way is to drain the tub, sterilize it with a very high level of (oh no!) chlorine, change the filter, and start over. I am not kidding about this. The good news is that it usually takes a few years of use before this happens. Biguanide is usually wonderful the first year, a bit cloudy the next, and downhill from there for many users.

I know this is not what you want to hear but it is the truth.

Well, ideally, I'd like to hear that I can maintain my hot tub with products I already have at home but ultimately I want to know what works and what doesn't work. I've replaced most household chemicals with equally effective but less toxic alternatives (that usually require more elbow grease) and was hoping to do the same with the hot tub.

Well, the truth is that the basic hot tub chemical you will need are acid, baking soda, borax and maybe washing soda along with your sanitizer of choice. These are the same things being sold at the spa store for a lot of money. Just read the labels! Many people, including myself, maintain my pool and spa with common household chemicals. Guess what, so do the pros! When I did commercial maintenance we had 50 lb bags of baking soda from Church and Dwight (who own the arm and hammer brand) and 50 pound bags of soda ash from Church and Dwight (washing soda). We also had 50 lb bags of TetraFlake calcium chloride to regulate hardness and used either muriatic or sulfuric acid to lower pH. These are the 'generic' Poll and spa maintenance chemicals. Oh yeah, we used sodium hypochorite for chlorination. Had to because it was a commercial facility. You know it as laundry bleach. Depending on the santiizer you chooseyou might also need clarifiers, oxidizers, algaecides, defoamers, and special filter cleaners. With biguande you will, unfortunately.

It is interesting that the CDC only mentions chlorine in this safe hot tubbing fact sheet. I wonder why?cool.gif

Well, considering my politics, I would speculate it's because they've decided they know best for everybody despite the fact that one size rarely fits all and for them chlorine is best - all other potential health problems it causes aside. They expect everybody to just accept whatever they say as the gospel truth. Unfortunately, they don't know me! :P Homeschooling through high school, homemaking, home-business, anti-vaccination, pro-home-birth, pro-personal responsibility, anti-government involvement in our food supply...I'm not the person they would like as a model citizen. Question everything and resist conformity! That doesn't mean I want to be foolish, though. Just means I like to make informed decisions and to take responsibility for my own actions instead of passing blame to somebody else!

So, now that everybody knows I'm ornery and a pain, let's see if I understand things...

I am a child of the 60's. Want to talk counter culture? I have been an activist and pacifist my entire life and still am. I have been involved in non violent civil disobedience and protests against injustice and stupidity for years now (and I am in my 50s.) I don't think you have anything on me in that department. I had the question authority bumper sticker on my bicycle in the late 70's. NOT joking here either.

The chemical you should be worried about in your hot tub is dihydrogen monoxide or DHMO! I can tell you with certainty that there is a lot of it in your tub right now! You should really read up on the health implications! Even a tiny amount inhaled into the lungs can be fatel and I KNOW it is in your hot tub right now! In fact, it has been implicated in just about every pool and hot tub drowning death as a contributing if not causative factor! Even Snopes.com (Urban legend reference pages) says the dangers of DHMO are true! They say it has been found in the tumors of cancer patients so, given what you have said, this is of special concern to you! I implore you to read these two links I posted. I think you will find them very enlightening! I would love to hear what you think of DHMO and how little our government is doing to protect us from it. Please report back since large quantities of it have been found in every pool and spa tested for it.

Apparently for my personal hot tub situation, there is nothing I can do alternatively to maintain my hot tub. I have high pH and you say there is no alternative that can be used to decrease it - unless I can deal with muriatic acid and can figure out how to use it safely.

Sodium bisulfate is your alternative. You will need to get it at the pool supply.

Alkalinity is also high so products to raise it are unneeded.

Acid also lowers alkalinity.

No alternative sanitizers...what about shock? You mention hydrogen peroxide as part of the system I'm currently using. Where does it come into play in my system? None of the bottles have ingredients identified. What strength is it in the packaged products?

You should have sanitizer and shock and conditioner and filter cleaner. The shock is peroxide (and fairly strong if I remember correctly). The sanitizer is bigaunide. The filter cleaner and conditioner are necessary! The stain and scale is needed if you have metals or your calcium hardness is high (hard water). Soft Soak is Bioguard, who are owned by Chemtura (not my favorite company for several reasons) You can also use BaquaSpa from Arch Chemical. It is the same thing. Revacil from Mareva is another biguanide based system. There are also private label ones available, usually from NJonas and Co.

What about waterline control or products to clean the waterline?

Your scum line is a byproduct of biguanide disinfection. It causes bacteria to literally explode and form a goo.

Can I at least use vinegar to effectively clean the waterline, which I understand is probably building up because of the high pH?

No, Vinegar has NO place in a pool or spa! Period!

I would ask about baking soda for it but that would contribute to my pH problem.

dilute (4 parts water to 1 part acid) muriatic acid in an acid proof spray bottle is a better choice.

I've read about an enzyme based waterline product - are they effective?

Yes they work if you are willing to pay the price but be sure the product is compatible with biguanide bases systems. Also, I question the safety of enzymes, particularly when there are no halogens to break them down.

Oh - the only time the water has been cloudy is when I clean the waterline. That makes sense to me but the cloudiness disappears pretty quickly. I clean it then begin the weekly maintenance. I figure the sanitizer and other products along with filtering are taking care of the cloudiness. Am I wrong?

Actually, yes. Biguanide works by causing bacterial cell walls to explode. In theory the peroxide will oxidize this organic matter but in reality it does not get a lot of it so the water gets cloudy. Also, the peroxide can be irritating to the lungs as the water atomizes with the jets running. This is one of the biggest complaints about biguanide systems in spas.

More questions about routine maintenance that are not answered in the literature that came with the hot tub...

Filter - how do I clean it? The literature says to rinse under a hose. That doesn't seem adequate to me - is it?

Not with a biguanide bases system. You need a SPECIAL filter cleaner. Also, because of the way biguanide works filters need to be cleaned much more frequently and replaced more frequently than with other sanitizers. NOT making this up, these are the facts.

Is there something I should soak it in - and how often?

Probably weekly soaking is a good idea.

So is having a second filter or set of filters so the clean ones can go in while the dirty ones are being cleaned.

How often should a filter be replaced?

With biguanide, every 6 months to a year is pretty standard.

If not based on time, how do I know when to replace it?

Draining and refilling - different things I've read say to change water anywhere from every six months to every four weeks. I'd love to go as long as I can but what is really a reasonable schedule? How do you know when the water needs to be changed? Is it based on use? Location? Weather? Combo of a variety of circumstances?

Combination of usage, weather, etc. I would certainly not go over 4 months and probably closer to 2 or 3 with biguanide. I would do a spa purge yearly when replacing the filters.

I've also read about adding something to the water prior to draining in order to clean the lines. Is this necessary? Important? The literature that came with the hot tub doesn't mention it but it seems logical to me IF the products are effective.

Purges are a good idea, as I said above.

Please report back what you think about the dangers of DHMO. I am really trying to alert people to how dangerous this chemical really is and the pool and spa industry and the government just don't take it seriously!blink.gif

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I refuse to use bromine or chlorine because of the health problems they cause.

:

Well, my idea of a healthy spa is not one filled with chemicals that are known to inhibit thyroid function - especially with a husband with thyroid cancer and my three daughters and myself hypothyroid. So we might be thinking slightly differently about whether things like chlorine and bromine are healthy - you might think they are because they sanitize the water of potentially dangerous elements while I know they aren't because soaking in a tub with them would exacerbate pre-existing and debilitating health conditions for my family. That is why I will NOT use either in my hot tub and why I am looking into a shower filter for our shower - to remove the chlorine that our city puts into it.

:

I'm not going to compromise my family's health in pursuit of maintaining it - either way. I won't use chlorine/bromine because it is unhealthy (and it can inhibit thyroid function in healthy people, too) but that doesn't mean I don't want an effective sanitizer. I am trying to do things both to minimize negative health impacts as well as to economize but I won't risk our health in order to economize.

:

The known risk to our health from chlorine/bromine (especially when soaking in it at high temperatures) is greater to me than the possible risk of other health problems, especially since I intend to be meticulous with this hot tub. Meticulous can prevent water-borne problems but not those caused by halogens if the products used contain halogens!

:

Question everything and resist conformity! That doesn't mean I want to be foolish, though. Just means I like to make informed decisions and to take responsibility for my own actions instead of passing blame to somebody else!

:

If you want to minimize exposure to halogens (chlorine and bromine) and, more importantly, their disinfection by-products, then your least expensive and safe EPA-approved disinfectant approach would be Nature2 (silver ions) with non-chlorine shock (MPS). However, this also needs periodic (usually weekly) shocking with chlorine to keep the water clear, but will have no chlorine during your soak (if you let the chlorine level drop after the shock) and will minimize disinfection by-products since the non-chlorine shock (MPS) will oxidize most of the bather waste.

The Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB is halogen-free, but is expensive. It is EPA-approved as a disinfectant. However, it has problems as waterbear noted -- resistance to this disinfectant is easier to develop, especially with white water mold (a fungus) and pink slime (which is really a bacteria).

Hydrogen peroxide is not EPA-approved as a disinfectant for pools or spas, but it is approved in Australia. There is a user on this forum who has been using it successfully, though it can be a little tricky to use.

By the way, it sounds like you are reading lay-person articles on the web like this one that on the surface sound authoritative and where the better ones give references, but did you read the scientific papers they refer to themselves? That's what I do and in this case the papers they refer to are about (24) brominated flame retardants, (27) organochlorine compounds specifically polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) and dioxins, (29) endosulfan and organochlorine pesticides especially Hexachlorocyclohexane (HCH) (30) brominated flame retardants. Lumping organochlorine chemicals all together is completely irresponsible since they differ greatly in their effects. Dioxin is very toxic (PCBs are a similar compound but with somewhat less toxicity) mostly because they bioaccumulate and are endocrine disruptors, but these as well as HCH are not found in pools or spas (even more comprehensive disinfection by-product lists do not include such chemicals). Dioxin is only created either when the chlorine and specific organic compound concentrations are extraordinarily high such as with chlorine bleaching of wood pulp or at specific high temperatures found in smokestacks from incinerators.

As for chlorinated drinking water, even those mechanisms of iodide interference are not clear cut as described in this paper. Note that the clear effects were at 9 mg/kg/day of chlorine dioxide while chlorinated water typically has around 1 mg/liter (of chlorine, not chlorine dioxide) so at 2 liters per day and 50 kg weight would be 0.04 mg/kg/day. They also found that chlorine dioxide had a greater iodide conversion effect than hypochlorous acid, probably because hypochlorous acid reacts with other compounds more readily before converting iodide to iodine or to other species. This paper also indicates that there are more problems for chlorine dioxide than for chlorine. There appears to be a huge disconnect between the actual scientific papers and the pseudo-science on various websites so if you can find any scientific peer-reviewed paper in a respected journal that demonstrates a clear link between chlorine or its disinfection byproducts in water for drinking, showering, bathing or swimming and effects on the thyroid, I would appreciate seeing it.

So while you do have options that reduce chlorine exposure, you should also be careful not to blindly follow the pseudo-science that often uses scare tactics to guide one to use of specific products for economic gain (such as ionizers or chlorine filters) or are from well-meaning sources who, unfortunately, are not rationally following the real science. There is no question that some chlorinated disinfection by-products are a problem, such as chloramines including nitrogen trichloride, or trihalomethanes (THMs), nitrosamines, etc., but even these are seen to be more of a problem with indoor high bather-load pools and with poorly maintained pools and spas and the problems are not related to thyroid disruption or endocrine receptors, etc. Nitrogen trichloride is irritating to lungs (and also smelly) while THMs (especially brominated THMs) are possible carcinogens. Even so, lifetime cancer risks in most studies of the worst commercial/public pools and spas as well as drinking water are on the order of 1 in 4,000 or lower (see this paper, this paper, this paper, this paper and this paper, for example) which is still too high compared to regulatory limits that are generally around 1 in 100,000 or lower (often 1 in 1 million or lower), but these allowed risks for drinking water assume daily consumption of 2 liters (or quarts) of water every day at the maximum EPA limit of 4 ppm Free Chlorine (FC).

Finally, none of the studies take into account the chlorine/CYA relationship. Cyanuric Acid (CYA) is a hypochlorous acid buffer and has minimal skin absorption (see this link) and significantly reduces the active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) concentration. The indoor pools in most pool studies do not usually have any CYA so the chlorine is at full strength and often high in concentration.

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Do you feel it is safe to soak in dead sea salts....or think salt water pools and spas are ok?

these are what create bromine and chlorine, salts....

Just be safe, learn your chemicals and what they do or your current medical issues could be the least of your worries. Cryto kills people every year also, its not just a case of you may get a bad itch, it is very serious.

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The chemical you should be worried about in your hot tub is dihydrogen monoxide or DHMO! I can tell you with certainty that there is a lot of it in your tub right now! You should really read up on the health implications! Even a tiny amount inhaled into the lungs can be fatel and I KNOW it is in your hot tub right now! In fact, it has been implicated in just about every pool and hot tub drowning death as a contributing if not causative factor! Even Snopes.com (Urban legend reference pages) says the dangers of DHMO are true! They say it has been found in the tumors of cancer patients so, given what you have said, this is of special concern to you! I implore you to read these two links I posted. I think you will find them very enlightening! I would love to hear what you think of DHMO and how little our government is doing to protect us from it. Please report back since large quantities of it have been found in every pool and spa tested for it.

I've found it in my bathroom and kitchen, too, as well as my laundry room. I actually have gallons of it bottled up in addition to cases of the stuff in .5 liter bottles. The only thing that one can do about it is to exercise care around it, especially since we'd die if it were banned. :lol:

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Do you feel it is safe to soak in dead sea salts....or think salt water pools and spas are ok?

these are what create bromine and chlorine, salts....

Just be safe, learn your chemicals and what they do or your current medical issues could be the least of your worries. Cryto kills people every year also, its not just a case of you may get a bad itch, it is very serious.

I don't know anything about soaking in salt or salt water pools and spas so have no opinion about them. I don't quite understand how your response relates to my question.

As for learning, I think that's what I am here for. I believe I've expressed a desire to learn and understand - in fact, I indicated I dislike mindlessly following the crowd without understanding why.

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By the way, it sounds like you are reading lay-person articles on the web like this one that on the surface sound authoritative and where the better ones give references, but did you read the scientific papers they refer to themselves?

I have never seen that article before in my life. I also haven't read those studies. But I do trust the doctor we are seeing and he has recommended avoiding chlorine/bromine/etc. I will look into it, though, when I have time. We are dealing with a family crisis at the moment that is taking a lot of my time, however.

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I don't know anything about soaking in salt or salt water pools and spas so have no opinion about them. I don't quite understand how your response relates to my question.

As for learning, I think that's what I am here for. I believe I've expressed a desire to learn and understand - in fact, I indicated I dislike mindlessly following the crowd without understanding why.

This pertains to all the bromine/chlorine stuff you have been talking about. I did not say anything about mindlessly following a crowd, salts are one of the "alternative" ways people are looking at and i was trying to make a point. I personally would not find it safe to soak in such a high solution of peroxide, but we all have our opinions, you just need to be safe, this is what everyone is trying to tell you, there is no safe alternative to biguinade, chlorine, bromine ot nature2 with mps, plus having a soft tub you have to be extra careful not to damage it. It is not as forgiving as a fiberglass tub with chemical mishaps/unbalanced water and Biguinade products.

a desire to understand and learn would mean you have to be a little open minded, you can not learn with a closed mind or to only listen to what you want to hear.

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I have never seen that article before in my life. I also haven't read those studies. But I do trust the doctor we are seeing and he has recommended avoiding chlorine/bromine/etc. I will look into it, though, when I have time. We are dealing with a family crisis at the moment that is taking a lot of my time, however.

Thanks for clarifying and sorry about your family crises. I hope it gets worked out in a positive way soon.

I now understand that you got the info about avoiding chlorine from your doctor. If you want to use an activated carbon-block water filter for drinking water, that is quite reasonable. We have one as well, though it's mostly for taste as my wife is very sensitive with her senses and doesn't like the taste of unfiltered tap water. I recently had some THM tests done (at $130 each -- yikes!) where I'm doing some experiments with my pool, and I used both filtered and unfiltered tap water as controls. We use a Multi-Pure system and it definitely works since it brought down THM levels to below the detection limit (< 0.5 ppb) and it will remove both chlorine and monochloramine (our water district switched to using monochloramine). Note, however, that it converts monochloramine to ammonia (and chloride).

As for a shower filter (which we do not have), most use KDF (basically brass; a 50/50 copper/zinc alloy), but note that this will only remove chlorine and not monochloramine. You should check with your municipal water supplier to see which they use for a residual disinfectant in your water supply. If they are using monochloramine and you want to remove it, then you can try a KDF/GAC combination shower filter, though there is debate as to whether the GAC is effective (it normally requires slower flow rates and lower water temperatures than found in a shower).

In practice, if you remove chlorine from your drinking water that will be the best in terms of following your doctor's advice. Next would be the shower, though that is questionable as to whether it is really needed. The hot tub would be last and least important, partly because CYA is used in the tub so the active chlorine level if you start with 1-2 ppm FC with 30 ppm CYA will be equivalent to 0.16 to 0.32 ppm FC with no CYA. The chlorine will react with ammonia from your sweat and urine to form 1-2 ppm monochloramine so your exposure to actual chlorine will be very low and relatively short. You would add chlorine after your soak where it will react with the remnants of your bather load, but with you outside of the tub.

If it were me, I'd either get a second opinion or get more details as to what exactly is trying to be avoided -- is it direct ingestion of chlorine? What about dermal absorption or inhalation? What scientific peer-reviewed papers in respected journals give details for such concern? I have done lots of searching and find TONS of websites promoting products claiming that chlorine is to blame, but there are hardly any scientific articles on this except for the ones I linked to already. This just doesn't pass the smell test. Filtering drinking water is easy enough to do and should alleviate the ingested gastrointestinal exposure problem as described in the literature.

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The chemical you should be worried about in your hot tub is dihydrogen monoxide or DHMO! I can tell you with certainty that there is a lot of it in your tub right now! You should really read up on the health implications! Even a tiny amount inhaled into the lungs can be fatel and I KNOW it is in your hot tub right now! In fact, it has been implicated in just about every pool and hot tub drowning death as a contributing if not causative factor! Even Snopes.com (Urban legend reference pages) says the dangers of DHMO are true! They say it has been found in the tumors of cancer patients so, given what you have said, this is of special concern to you! I implore you to read these two links I posted. I think you will find them very enlightening! I would love to hear what you think of DHMO and how little our government is doing to protect us from it. Please report back since large quantities of it have been found in every pool and spa tested for it.

I've found it in my bathroom and kitchen, too, as well as my laundry room. I actually have gallons of it bottled up in addition to cases of the stuff in .5 liter bottles. The only thing that one can do about it is to exercise care around it, especially since we'd die if it were banned. :lol:

You passed and I think we understand where each other is coming from!tongue.gif

Now on to your present situation.

First, I am very sorry about your present situation so the need to have properly sanitized water is even more important for you since there are some immune system things going on. Last thing needed is a secondary infection of some sort.

Chem geek does make some good points and I would definitely question the doctor, As far as that goes Dr, Andrew Weil (a very famous alternative healing proponent) recommends copper sanitation of pools and the research has proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it does NOT work. HE is dead wrong here but then again it's not really his field of expertise, is it?

A second opinion might not be a bad idea. I have friends who are now doctors who would not have passed chemistry in college if it were not for me so doctors are not any kind of final authority for me and I question them at great length. Many are idiots, IMHO. (Like I said before, want to talk counter culture?wink.gif

Now, after thinking on this a bit more, your best two choices for your situation, given that you are not going to change your mindset, would be the biguanide/peroxide and I've pretty much told you all the downsides that can ( and usually do) happen and the bad news that is will be a drain on your wallet.

Another viable alternative would be a Nature2 spa cartridge with MPS before and after each tub use. Bad news is this WILL require some chlorine but not when you are in the tub. Chlorine is needed to first activate the cartridge and is needed for weekly (or more often if the water gets cloudy or the bather load is very high) shocking. The good news is that the chlorine level can drop to 0 ppm before you use the tub and stay there until time for the next shocking. Bad news is that MPS (potassium monopersulfate, Dupont Oxone) is a sensitizer and some people do have some irritation problems with it. FWIW, MPS is used in denture cleaner, laundry bleach, non chlorine oxidizer for bromine spas, in many industries and countless other uses and is a very common oxidizer these days.

The nature2 cartridge puts silver and zinc in the water. MPS at high water temperatures found in spas and catalyzed by the metal ions in the water becomes an effective, fast acting sanitizer and the silver ions also kill microbes but have slower kill times.

The Silver/MPS system (Nature 2) will probably have less problems in the long run, be easier, and cost less than the biguanide and, if you remember to add the MPS before and after each soak and shock weekly or as needed with chlorine, will provide you with sanitized and safe water.

I am going to say that I am not a fan of Nature 2 because most people do not do it correctly and do not have sanitized water but if done right it can work.

I am even less of a fan of bigaunide systems because they really do drain your wallet fast and have a lot of problems.

Hope this info is useful but I would also recommend to get a second opinion on the chlorine or bromine.

FWIW, many people feel that autism is caused by mercury in vaccinations but THAT has been dis-proven time and again and it STILL refuses to die (and I work with people on the spectrum professionally these days and have autism in my family so I know a bit about this also.)

Then we have cyclamates, probably the safest artificial sweetener ever, that was banned in this country because of a faulty study where they implanted the cyclamates in rat's bladders in a chlolesterol base and it caused cancer. In further studies they found out the chlolesterol base without the cyclamates caused cancer just as much and that cylcamates are an EXTREMELY safe food additive, the worst effect being a bit of stool softening effect because of osmotic action (it's a salt after all).

Then we have hair dye and cancer(and I have been a licensed barber and cosmetologist for over 30 years and have taught both and specialized in color and chemical services so this one is dear to me). p-Phenylenediamine and related aniline derviatives are the usual suspects BUT every study make of hairdressers and hair coloriests (the group at highest risk because of constant daily exposure) have never found a higher incidence of cancers than in control groups.

What I mean by all this is it is healthy to be a skeptic when it comes to some of the flawed research that goes on (and I am someone with a chemistry background that has done research in chemistry at an earlier point in m life.)

Get ALL the facts and then make your decision!

IF I can help in any way let me know. You know where to find me!biggrin.gif

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A second opinion might not be a bad idea. I have friends who are now doctors who would not have passed chemistry in college if it were not for me so doctors are not any kind of final authority for me and I question them at great length. Many are idiots, IMHO. (Like I said before, want to talk counter culture?wink.gif

I agree with you 100% and in the course of getting my husband treated (and I would have preferred he take his time and try some alternatives since thyroid cancer is so slow growing and the mainstream options are extreme), we fired a few idiots along the way. I am not 100% sold on the current doctor but he's the best we've found so far.

Now, after thinking on this a bit more, your best two choices for your situation, given that you are not going to change your mindset, would be the biguanide/peroxide and I've pretty much told you all the downsides that can ( and usually do) happen and the bad news that is will be a drain on your wallet.

Another viable alternative would be a Nature2 spa cartridge with MPS before and after each tub use. Bad news is this WILL require some chlorine but not when you are in the tub. Chlorine is needed to first activate the cartridge and is needed for weekly (or more often if the water gets cloudy or the bather load is very high) shocking. The good news is that the chlorine level can drop to 0 ppm before you use the tub and stay there until time for the next shocking. Bad news is that MPS (potassium monopersulfate, Dupont Oxone) is a sensitizer and some people do have some irritation problems with it. FWIW, MPS is used in denture cleaner, laundry bleach, non chlorine oxidizer for bromine spas, in many industries and countless other uses and is a very common oxidizer these days.

The nature2 cartridge puts silver and zinc in the water. MPS at high water temperatures found in spas and catalyzed by the metal ions in the water becomes an effective, fast acting sanitizer and the silver ions also kill microbes but have slower kill times.

The Silver/MPS system (Nature 2) will probably have less problems in the long run, be easier, and cost less than the biguanide and, if you remember to add the MPS before and after each soak and shock weekly or as needed with chlorine, will provide you with sanitized and safe water.

I am going to say that I am not a fan of Nature 2 because most people do not do it correctly and do not have sanitized water but if done right it can work. I am even less of a fan of bigaunide systems because they really do drain your wallet fast and have a lot of problems.

Thank you for this additional information. I will see what I can find out about it. I've worked hard to be diligent with our current system.

I've established a routine for maintenance that I adhere to pretty rigidly. Like I said, I don't want this to compromise our health (I haven't even gotten into it yet because I'm fighting an infection and do not want to risk contaminating the water.) If the Nature 2 system is a better and less costly alternative to what I am using I'm happy to look into it. It looks like the closest dealer is about 20 miles away. If we switch to this, will there be anything special I need to do? I would plan to so it whenever I drained and cleaned the tub and would also change the filter at the same time.

Also, I was doing some reading today and encountered a recommendation for a pre-filter. It seems reasonable - is use of a pre-filter generally recommended? This is the first time I've run into the idea.

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A second opinion might not be a bad idea. I have friends who are now doctors who would not have passed chemistry in college if it were not for me so doctors are not any kind of final authority for me and I question them at great length. Many are idiots, IMHO. (Like I said before, want to talk counter culture?wink.gif

I agree with you 100% and in the course of getting my husband treated (and I would have preferred he take his time and try some alternatives since thyroid cancer is so slow growing and the mainstream options are extreme), we fired a few idiots along the way. I am not 100% sold on the current doctor but he's the best we've found so far.

Now, after thinking on this a bit more, your best two choices for your situation, given that you are not going to change your mindset, would be the biguanide/peroxide and I've pretty much told you all the downsides that can ( and usually do) happen and the bad news that is will be a drain on your wallet.

Another viable alternative would be a Nature2 spa cartridge with MPS before and after each tub use. Bad news is this WILL require some chlorine but not when you are in the tub. Chlorine is needed to first activate the cartridge and is needed for weekly (or more often if the water gets cloudy or the bather load is very high) shocking. The good news is that the chlorine level can drop to 0 ppm before you use the tub and stay there until time for the next shocking. Bad news is that MPS (potassium monopersulfate, Dupont Oxone) is a sensitizer and some people do have some irritation problems with it. FWIW, MPS is used in denture cleaner, laundry bleach, non chlorine oxidizer for bromine spas, in many industries and countless other uses and is a very common oxidizer these days.

The nature2 cartridge puts silver and zinc in the water. MPS at high water temperatures found in spas and catalyzed by the metal ions in the water becomes an effective, fast acting sanitizer and the silver ions also kill microbes but have slower kill times.

The Silver/MPS system (Nature 2) will probably have less problems in the long run, be easier, and cost less than the biguanide and, if you remember to add the MPS before and after each soak and shock weekly or as needed with chlorine, will provide you with sanitized and safe water.

I am going to say that I am not a fan of Nature 2 because most people do not do it correctly and do not have sanitized water but if done right it can work. I am even less of a fan of bigaunide systems because they really do drain your wallet fast and have a lot of problems.

Thank you for this additional information. I will see what I can find out about it. I've worked hard to be diligent with our current system.

I've established a routine for maintenance that I adhere to pretty rigidly. Like I said, I don't want this to compromise our health (I haven't even gotten into it yet because I'm fighting an infection and do not want to risk contaminating the water.) If the Nature 2 system is a better and less costly alternative to what I am using I'm happy to look into it. It looks like the closest dealer is about 20 miles away. If we switch to this, will there be anything special I need to do? I would plan to so it whenever I drained and cleaned the tub and would also change the filter at the same time.

Also, I was doing some reading today and encountered a recommendation for a pre-filter. It seems reasonable - is use of a pre-filter generally recommended? This is the first time I've run into the idea.

Prefilters (I assume you mean when filling the spa) can be useful if you have metals in your water (iron, copper, manganese) AND the right kind of prefilter (greensand). Otherwise they are not going to do much.

As far as converting from biguandie:

Drain the tub and clean the filter WELL!

Fill and shock with chlorine. If the water stays clear then throw out the old filter and put in a new one and start up the Nature 2 according to direactions.

If the water turns off color in any way or any goo forms keep adding chlorine (bleach is your best bet) until the water clears totally, throw out the old filter and put in a new one, then start up the nature 2 according to directions.

Draining and refilling with get rid of most of the bigaunide in your tub but some will still be in the plumbing and all traces need to be oxidized (which makes it goo up and change the water funny colors like brown and green) until it is all gone. You will not be able to totally clean the old filter, which is why it needs to be replaced.

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The Silver/MPS system (Nature 2) will probably have less problems in the long run, be easier, and cost less than the biguanide and, if you remember to add the MPS before and after each soak and shock weekly or as needed with chlorine, will provide you with sanitized and safe water.

Prefilters (I assume you mean when filling the spa) can be useful if you have metals in your water (iron, copper, manganese) AND the right kind of prefilter (greensand). Otherwise they are not going to do much.

Thanks for the info. I don't know what metals we might have in the water but I guess it would be a good thing to learn.

As far as converting from biguandie:

Drain the tub and clean the filter WELL!

Fill and shock with chlorine. If the water stays clear then throw out the old filter and put in a new one and start up the Nature 2 according to direactions.

If the water turns off color in any way or any goo forms keep adding chlorine (bleach is your best bet) until the water clears totally, throw out the old filter and put in a new one, then start up the nature 2 according to directions.

Draining and refilling with get rid of most of the bigaunide in your tub but some will still be in the plumbing and all traces need to be oxidized (which makes it goo up and change the water funny colors like brown and green) until it is all gone. You will not be able to totally clean the old filter, which is why it needs to be replaced.

Thank you. Now I have to wait until I have the new stuff and the temps make it reasonable to be out there doing all of this! What do you mean by "If the water stays clear"? I know what clear water is - I just don't know the timeframe in which to judge this. If it's clear a few hours later? Two days later? Also, does I need to heat the water to do the chlorine shock or can I add it as soon as the tub is filled? And chlorine - how much? Are we talking the laundry bleach type or do I need a specific product? I also discovered that my mother gave me a partial bottle of Spa System Flush. Should I use that when initially draining the tub? Do I need to drain the tub a second time or do I just add the Nature 2 to the existing (new) water?

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The Silver/MPS system (Nature 2) will probably have less problems in the long run, be easier, and cost less than the biguanide and, if you remember to add the MPS before and after each soak and shock weekly or as needed with chlorine, will provide you with sanitized and safe water.

Prefilters (I assume you mean when filling the spa) can be useful if you have metals in your water (iron, copper, manganese) AND the right kind of prefilter (greensand). Otherwise they are not going to do much.

Thanks for the info. I don't know what metals we might have in the water but I guess it would be a good thing to learn.

As far as converting from biguandie:

Drain the tub and clean the filter WELL!

Fill and shock with chlorine. If the water stays clear then throw out the old filter and put in a new one and start up the Nature 2 according to direactions.

If the water turns off color in any way or any goo forms keep adding chlorine (bleach is your best bet) until the water clears totally, throw out the old filter and put in a new one, then start up the nature 2 according to directions.

Draining and refilling with get rid of most of the bigaunide in your tub but some will still be in the plumbing and all traces need to be oxidized (which makes it goo up and change the water funny colors like brown and green) until it is all gone. You will not be able to totally clean the old filter, which is why it needs to be replaced.

Thank you. Now I have to wait until I have the new stuff and the temps make it reasonable to be out there doing all of this! What do you mean by "If the water stays clear"? I know what clear water is - I just don't know the timeframe in which to judge this. If it's clear a few hours later? Two days later? Also, does I need to heat the water to do the chlorine shock or can I add it as soon as the tub is filled? And chlorine - how much? Are we talking the laundry bleach type or do I need a specific product? I also discovered that my mother gave me a partial bottle of Spa System Flush. Should I use that when initially draining the tub? Do I need to drain the tub a second time or do I just add the Nature 2 to the existing (new) water?

As i said before, biguanide does not play well with most other spa or pool chemicals and you have to be very careful what you mix with it. When mixed with chlorine the water turns brown, green or cloudy; deepening on the bigaunide level at the time. The water will stay that way and produce goo until all the bigaunide is oxidized by the chlorine. At that point the water will be sparkling clear. You should also have a Taylor K-2006 test kit so you can test for combined chlorine. When the combined chlorine is 0 ppm the biguanide is gone and you can start up the Nature 2 and balance the water. Here is where you would do the flush and refill and then put in the new filter. Then you would adjust the TA to around 70 ppm and the ph to 7.6 once the TA is adjusted, then adjust the calcium hardness to about 150 or above if it is lower than 150.. If your fill water is very hard (calcium hardness is around 400 ppm or higher) you would need to add a stain and scale or calcium reducer to the water. If it is between 150 and 400 don't lose any sleep over it.

Now you would put the N2 cart in your filter and shock the tub according to the N2 directions. You would test pH and MPS (which tests as combined chlorine) before each soak and add MPS if it is low. You would also add more after each soak. IF the pH is off adjust it first. Anywhere between 7.2 and 7.8 is acceptable but you will have the fewest pH problems if you don't lower it below 7.6 and wait for it to hit 7.8 before you lower it again. I would use dry acid since it is the easiest to handle. Once a week test, before you shock with chlorine test your TA and CYA. CYA should not go above 30 ppm. Test calcium weekly to monthly, depending on how hard your fill water is and if it is very hard add your stain and scale or calcium reducer weekly. When you shock you can use laundry bleach. 2 oz of ultra (6%) or 2.5 oz of regular (5.25%) unscented laundry bleach. Don't use scented, outdoor, HE, or any other specialty bleach. When you shock leave the tub uncovered and the circulation running until the chlorine level drops to about 3 ppm or less. At this point you can use a small amount of hydrogen peroxide to kill any remaining chlorine (about 2 oz per 100 gal of the drugstore stuff should be in the ballpark, it will work fast so you can retest in about 15 minutes of circulation. Once your chlorine is 0 ppm you can add your MPS and start soaking for another week.

Realize that this is a bit more complicated than normal for 2 reasons:

1. you are converting from bigaunide, which is a PITA but is only a 1 time PITA. Once the conversion is done it's done.

2. you do not want ANY chlorine in the tub when you soak so I am taking this into consideration with my instructions for you and there are some extra steps that normally would not be done.

If at any time the tub looks cloudy, has an off smell or feels slimy or slippery then you need to do a chlorine shock even if a week has not passed. This can occur when the bather load is higher than normal, there is a large organic load in the tub (someone peed in the water, an animal got in, leaves or grass blew in, someone was dirty when they got in the water, etc. )

That's pretty much it

Here is a link to the Naure 2 spa instruction sheet so you can see just what is involved. You should also get a Taylor K-2006 test kit (relax, you can get it for much less from many online retailers). It will test all the parameters you will need to test and make your spa maintenance easy. It has an acid demand test so you will know just how much acid you will need to lower the pH...no guessing! It might seem a bit pricey but in the long run it will save you money and time and make taking care of your spa very easy. Amato Industries seems to have the best price on this kit but they can be a bit slow on shipping from what has been reported.

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has anyone mentioned an enzyme system to you yet? we use one called Spa Marvel, there are many out there.

NO enzyme system is approved in the US as a primary sanitizer by the EPA and I do not believe they are approved in Canada either. Enzymes are NOT sanitizers, period.

There is so much wrong with the Spa Marvel website that I don't know where to begin but NOWHERE on the website do they claim it is a sanitizer, in fact they say it is compatible with all santizers except biganide.

The website is filled with misinformation.

For example, film on spa walls is a biofilm caused by bacteria and not because of positively and negatively charged ions and green water that is treated with dichlor, as they suggest, is caused by algae, not copper. Chlorine (dichlor) will intensify the green from copper, not get rid of it.

http://spamarvel.com/faq.html

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i'm sorry waterbear but where does the OP ask about EPA registered sanitizers? she is looking for alternatives. They dont claim to be a sanitizer because 1) they legally cant in canada and 2) it isnt. You need to stop discrediting things based on what the Gov approves for you and for which you more than likely have no experience with. Gotta try it before you knock it. Its an ALTERNATIVE, alternatives are not popular because they buck the trend and are therefore open for all sorts of pundits to mock, discredit and make fun of. Its a shame you are playing right into the big chemical companies hands, propagating fear of alternatives instead of moving our industry forward with safe use of alternatives. Some people could not own a hot tub if all they could use is Gov approved sanitization systems, thats a shame, hot tubs are wonderful things and i think everyone should have one.

i was expecting flack for suggesting this and i thought i could bite my tongue but in the spirit of helping someone look for alternatives i had to mention it because contrary to the popular mindset of this forum, it just plain works, i have seen it work for many, i currently use it. I do use chlorine regularly but have done long periods without any sanitizer, and tested for bacteria using a commercially available test kit, which was negative.

Enzymes work, i searched both of the more popular forums and did not see much negative feedback. The feedback i saw was someone stepping up and mentioning that they loved and use enzymes and the rest of the board bashing them back down and basically shutting them up because what they wanted to talk about was not an approved sanitizer, not approved by Gov and not approved by members of the forum...its a shame, it truly is.

Enzymes, not only for hot tubs but for health as well, are going to be the next wave of health fads, its only a matter of time.

Prov31Mom23 you seem intelligent and able to think and make decisions for yourself, do your research into enyzmes.

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Enzymes can work to oxidize bather waste (including oils) so keep water clear from such buildup, but they are not general sanitizers (though some can kill some bacteria -- more on that below). So one can of course use them by themselves but needs to understand they are taking a higher risk by doing so. Having no sanitizer in your water does not have absolute certainty of being bacteriologcially unsafe nor of causing disease. It just increases that risk.

As for your commercially available bacteria test kit, I suggest you try testing it on separate unsanitized (and no enzymes) water (careful: tap water is usually chlorinated) you intentionally dose with some of your own bacteria (cheek swab and saliva; skin swab; fecal matter), give it some nutrients (phosphates and nitrates such as a tiny amount of fertilizer) and warmth (closer to body temp), wait 24 hours, and see if the test kit is able to register any bacteria. You can double-check by putting some samples on agar gel (mixed with nutrient broth) in petri dishes and incubating to see if visible colonies develop.

This isn't about government or companies -- this is about science. Peer-reviewed scientific papers in respected journals demonstrate what really goes on. There aren't any that claim that enzymes kill pathogens quickly as broad-spectrum agents. On the other hand, there is plenty of science behind certain alternative solutions that clearly shows the limitations. Regarding metal ions (copper and silver) I did a compilation of such research in this post where it became very clear that copper ions alone do not even inhibit, let alone kill, fecal bacteria because they live in the gut where copper ion concentrations in blood serum are about the same level as recommended for pools so they have mechanisms for living in that kind of environment. Yet many copper ion system products (Pristine Blue, Rain Forest Blue, Cleanwater Blue, etc.) NEVER disclose this critical information.

There is, however, research on very specific enzymes that attack very specific pathogens such as one described in this paper (article about this paper here). Bacteriophages (viruses that attack bacteria) have different modes of attack, but we currently do not know how to manufacture these specific enzymes and these would be expensive treatments for medicine, not as general purpose use in hot spas. Nevertheless, there is research on lytic enzymes in general and someday we may be able to use them, but right now they are not available and it's also not clear on their rate of killing.

We know even from reports on this forum that hot tub itch/rash/folliculitis (Pseudomonas aeruginosa) and hot tub lung (Mycobacterium avium) and Legionnaires' disease (Legionella pneumophila) can all come from using spas that were not sanitized properly. These are real reports, not just some hypothetical problems. The hot tub lung incident was from using AquaFinesse. There aren't enough people using enzymes to know how many will get problems. There will obviously be more reports from the more common methods such as low active chlorine levels from long-term use of Dichlor-only (where CYA builds up and/or FC levels are too low for too long).

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Also, the whole idea of water maintenance is to provide SAFE water. If you just want to keep it from turning green then dose it up with copper and it won't get algae (but you might end up with green hair). Water borne illnesses are not a joke and if one is looking into alternative water maintenance the goal should STILL be safe water, not sick water. Thecanuck22 in another thead you indicated you were looking for 'systems' of water maintenance and did not like the answer you got. Why do you think chlorine and bromine continue to be the main systems of water maintenance? Why do you think that copper systems and ionizers have not become widespread. Alternative systems come and go but for some reason never last. A few years ago it was all the copper based systems and ionizers, now the buzz word is enzymes.

Bottom line, there are many illnesses that can and are transmitted by the heated waters and mists in a spa. If you are concerned about the health of your family you will do you best, with proven methods, to keep the water as sanitary as possible. That would be responsible spa ownership.

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Enzymes, not only for hot tubs but for health as well, are going to be the next wave of health fads, its only a matter of time.

You are correct, they probably will be the next fad. However fads, by definition, do not last. Case in point, I give you pet rocks, troll dolls, Rubik's cube, care bears, crystal power, lava lights, beanie babies, suduko, hula hoops, channeling (anyone remember Ramtha?) tomagatchi, grunge, pogs, swatch watches, valspeak (like, ohmygod! As if! )...

The list is endless.

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