Cloudy Yellow Water. Alk And Ph Ok. Cya High. What To Do ?

[Milly101]

Just having a hell of a time getting my water to clear up. 2 days ago I open my hot tub to see the water cloudy and yellowish color. I clean the filters, shock it. Come back the next day and FC is at 1. Add some more chlorine, next day still cloudy as and yellow and a not so good smell.

Decide to use the taylor kit and test CYA, to find it really high. Instructions say to add drops until you no see the black circle, so I did and sure enough the water level does not even reach 100, so I assume it is something like 300 PPM.

From my reading, it seems that if the CYA is too high then the chlorine is not as effective.

So my question is, what should I do? Should I add more chlorine and keep it above 10PPM for a few days?? Can I lower the CYA somehow? Maybe I should just drain and refill, but water is just one month old ..

Thanx, hope you guys can help me out. Have a party for new years, and would hate to have the water looking the way it does..

[waterbear]

Just having a hell of a time getting my water to clear up. 2 days ago I open my hot tub to see the water cloudy and yellowish color. I clean the filters, shock it. Come back the next day and FC is at 1. Add some more chlorine, next day still cloudy as and yellow and a not so good smell.

Decide to use the taylor kit and test CYA, to find it really high. Instructions say to add drops until you no see the black circle, so I did and sure enough the water level does not even reach 100, so I assume it is something like 300 PPM.

From my reading, it seems that if the CYA is too high then the chlorine is not as effective.

So my question is, what should I do? Should I add more chlorine and keep it above 10PPM for a few days?? Can I lower the CYA somehow? Maybe I should just drain and refill, but water is just one month old ..

Thanx, hope you guys can help me out. Have a party for new years, and would hate to have the water looking the way it does..

You need to lower the CYA to about 20-30 ppm and in the future stop using dichlor when the CYA is at 30 ppm and switch to either sodium hypochlorite (bleach) , calcium hypochlorite (cal hypo), or lithium hypochlorite as your chlorine source.

There is only ONE way to lower CYA, You need to drain the tub and refill.

[Milly101]

There is only ONE way to lower CYA, You need to drain the tub and refill.

I was afraid you would say that About 2 weeks ago, I was away and the tub went 5 days with FC at 0. Water was cloudy and yellow, I shocked, cleaned filters, brought ALK and PH to right levels and after a couple of days the water cleared up some. Then again for 4 days without checking and that is when i reached the above situation.

Is the adding of so much dichlor the cause of CYA going high? I have read the Sticky about the use of bleach after balancing and on a new fill. Maybe that is the way to go.

[waterbear]

There is only ONE way to lower CYA, You need to drain the tub and refill.

I was afraid you would say that About 2 weeks ago, I was away and the tub went 5 days with FC at 0. Water was cloudy and yellow, I shocked, cleaned filters, brought ALK and PH to right levels and after a couple of days the water cleared up some. Then again for 4 days without checking and that is when i reached the above situation.

Is the adding of so much dichlor the cause of CYA going high? I have read the Sticky about the use of bleach after balancing and on a new fill. Maybe that is the way to go.

Yes, dichlor is the culprit! For every 1 ppm FC added by dichlor it also adds .9 ppm CYA! It's almost 1 to 1. IF you are adding 2 ppm dichlor daily (not unusual at all) then after a month's time you have added 60 ppm FC and 54 ppm CYA. Your tub would be overstabilized at this point!

[Milly101]

There is only ONE way to lower CYA, You need to drain the tub and refill.

I was afraid you would say that About 2 weeks ago, I was away and the tub went 5 days with FC at 0. Water was cloudy and yellow, I shocked, cleaned filters, brought ALK and PH to right levels and after a couple of days the water cleared up some. Then again for 4 days without checking and that is when i reached the above situation.

Is the adding of so much dichlor the cause of CYA going high? I have read the Sticky about the use of bleach after balancing and on a new fill. Maybe that is the way to go.

Yes, dichlor is the culprit! For every 1 ppm FC added by dichlor it also adds .9 ppm CYA! It's almost 1 to 1. IF you are adding 2 ppm dichlor daily (not unusual at all) then after a month's time you have added 60 ppm FC and 54 ppm CYA. Your tub would be overstabilized at this point!

I see, seems like every month I am learning something new about water chemistry, I tell you I never though it was this complicated before I got a hot tub. Guess I will have to drain and fill.

I hope since I have you here you could maybe answer another question. My dealers instructions when shocking my water involve adding Dichlor ( Care Free BoosT ) followed by ( Care Free )According to the beachcomber website it states the following about it:

"Care Free

Designed to work in conjunction with Care Free Boost, Care Free is the once-a-week solution that cleans, conditions and clarifies your hot tub water. It’s a special aid to your filtration system, helping the Microfilter to catch more contaminants and debris. Care Free also promotes a more stable water balance."

So if one is Dichlor, what exactly is the other ?

[waterbear]

There is only ONE way to lower CYA, You need to drain the tub and refill.

I was afraid you would say that About 2 weeks ago, I was away and the tub went 5 days with FC at 0. Water was cloudy and yellow, I shocked, cleaned filters, brought ALK and PH to right levels and after a couple of days the water cleared up some. Then again for 4 days without checking and that is when i reached the above situation.

Is the adding of so much dichlor the cause of CYA going high? I have read the Sticky about the use of bleach after balancing and on a new fill. Maybe that is the way to go.

Yes, dichlor is the culprit! For every 1 ppm FC added by dichlor it also adds .9 ppm CYA! It's almost 1 to 1. IF you are adding 2 ppm dichlor daily (not unusual at all) then after a month's time you have added 60 ppm FC and 54 ppm CYA. Your tub would be overstabilized at this point!

I see, seems like every month I am learning something new about water chemistry, I tell you I never though it was this complicated before I got a hot tub. Guess I will have to drain and fill.

I hope since I have you here you could maybe answer another question. My dealers instructions when shocking my water involve adding Dichlor ( Care Free BoosT ) followed by ( Care Free )According to the beachcomber website it states the following about it:

"Care Free

Designed to work in conjunction with Care Free Boost, Care Free is the once-a-week solution that cleans, conditions and clarifies your hot tub water. It's a special aid to your filtration system, helping the Microfilter to catch more contaminants and debris. Care Free also promotes a more stable water balance."

So if one is Dichlor, what exactly is the other ?

Could not find the MSDS for the Beachcomber private label products but since you have them if you would list the ingredients I can tell you what it is. My guess is that it is a cationic clarifier (particularly with the large POISON written on the bottle with the skull and crossbones).

Post the ingredients.

[Milly101]

Post the ingredients.

I took pictures of the bottle front and back. Hope this helps.

http://img8.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=img0262nn.jpg

[waterbear]

Post the ingredients.

I took pictures of the bottle front and back. Hope this helps.

http://img8.imagesha...g=img0262nn.jpg

can't read it. Post the ingredients

[Milly101]

Post the ingredients.

I took pictures of the bottle front and back. Hope this helps.

http://img8.imagesha...g=img0262nn.jpg

can't read it. Post the ingredients

It doesn't have ingredients listings. If you click on the images and then click again to zoom in you can read perfectly, They are high resolution pics. But it does not have an ingredient list.

[chem geek]

According to the Beachcomber website, Care Free sounds like it is mostly a clarifier though may also contain non-chlorine shock (MPS). Interesting that it does not have any ingredients on the label and that there doesn't seem to be an MSDS for it.

[simonc]

Milly101 -

May I make a suggestion regarding getting the CYA level right?

I use the diclor-then-bleach method. After doing a fresh refill and BEFORE I add any diclor, I set aside ALL the diclor that I'm going to use and put it in a small sandwich-type ziplock bag. Then I add my diclor from the bag. When the bag is empty I have a CYA level of ~30ppm. At that point, I start adding clorox bleach as per the diclor-then-bleach method.

It's easy to figure out how much diclor to put in the bag. When you add diclor, you get 9ppms of CYA for every 10ppms of chlorine. So ... if I add 35ppm of chlorine (via diclor) to my tub over the first week or two, I'll also have added ~30ppms of CYA by the time my bag of diclor is empty. Go to the POOLCALCULATOR and use the chlorine section. Enter ZERO for the starting point and 35ppm for the target. This will tell you that you need so many ounces of diclor to achieve a goal of 35ppm FC. Well ... this will also give you a goal of ~30ppm CYA. For my tub it's about 2.3 ounces of diclor by weight. I have a small food scale, so I measure out 2.3 ounces and put that in the ziplock bag. Now I'm all set to start adding diclor so that when the bag is done I'll also have ~30ppm CYA. Remember, do NOT use the whole bag of diclor at once ... just add your usual amount as you would normally on a day by day basis until the bag is empty.

A couple more things ...

1. CYA gradually diminishes in the hot tub ... about 5ppms/month. So about once a month I throw in a tablespoon of diclor to bring my CYA level back up to about 30ppms.

2. After you do this, you may want to test your CYA. After a couple of refills/tests, you'll gain the confidence that your diclor/CYA calculations are correct. Unfortunately, the CYA test is relatively expensive to do often (unlike FC or pH tests). Each CYA test uses 7ml of reagent. Each little bottle only has 3 tests in it. Unless, I'm having sanitation problems with my tub, I don't test CYA. I depend on the calculation with the POOLCALCULAOR.

Good luck,

- Simon

[Mikey_in_NY]

Agree with SimonC.

On your next (imminent?) fill take a note of how much Dichlor you need to get up to 30ppm CYA, and use it as a reference for all subsequent fills. In my case (530 gallon tub) I need 7 tablespoons, which I add at a rate of 2 tablespoons per week on a new fill. Once I'm up to 7 TBSP I cease and replace with chlorox. From then on I add just one tablespoon of Dichlor a month as the CYA level does slowly drop. Take plenty of measurements for the first couple of months just to get a handle on how the addition of chemicals affects your water balance. Once you've got a grasp on it you should then only need to take measurements maybe once per week.

The Dichlor / chlorox regime works very well, but it does require the addition of chlorox every couple of days even if the tub has not been used (and every day when used), especially if you don't have an ozonator. If you know you're not going to be around for 5 days suggest you shock before leaving, or ask a neighbor to throw some chlorox in whilst you're away. If you're away from home a lot then a Bromine regimen may be the way to go.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

If you use dichlor/bleach method, follow the directions in full. You must use the borates or you will have a PH rising issue which can cause scale and damage the tub. If you don't get the CYA to 30, bleach is too harsh and will damage the tub

[Milly101]

Thanx for all the tips guys. The water has cleared up some. Clear enough that I think it will be ok for new years. I figure it would be better to empty and refill after the party, as then it will be less people using it beyond that weekend.

Today the FC was pretty low again so added some more dichlor ( care free Boost )

ALK was low so i brought that up to level.

PH was fine after ALK increase.

I purchased a spa water clarifier ( blue thick liquid ) I added 20ml of it and turned on air jets, All kinds of gunk/ yellow scum started appearing on the edge of the tub and on the foam. Cleaned it up, then left the tub circulating on low with no air. Checked 1 hour later with jets on high and air open and the foam was no longer getting that yukky scum build up. So i hope the filter picks up that gunk and help clear the water some.

still not sure what the care free bottle is for. According to my dealers instructions I am to only use that once a week when i superchlorinate along with care free boost

Then there is the Soft, which I am suppose to use once a week. My understanding is that simply just make the water feel nicer..

Thanx again guys for all the help.

[simonc]

I purchased a spa water clarifier ( blue thick liquid ) I added 20ml of it and turned on air jets, All kinds of gunk/ yellow scum started appearing on the edge of the tub and on the foam. Cleaned it up, then left the tub circulating on low with no air. Checked 1 hour later with jets on high and air open and the foam was no longer getting that yukky scum build up. So i hope the filter picks up that gunk and help clear the water some.

Milly101 -

"Yellow Scum" doesn't sound good. Since you are having issues with the CYA interfering with your sanitizer, it might mean that you have something growing in your tub. These "bugs" may produce a "bathtub ring" on your hottub. Since you're going to drain your tub anyway, you might consider decontaminating it. Here is a link to the decontamination procedure. Sometimes it's difficult to find the cleaning product locally. I've had the best results with something called .Spa System Flush. Another product that seems to be popular on this forum is "Swirl Away". I've tried "Spa Purge" and "Jet Clean". These last two didn't seem to work for my tub. What I mean by "work for my tub" is that "Spa System Flush" produced the most gunk after use. "Spa Purge" and "Jet Clean" didn't produce any gunk at all in my tub.

Good luck,

- Simon

[Milly101]

According to the Beachcomber website, Care Free sounds like it is mostly a clarifier though may also contain non-chlorine shock (MPS). Interesting that it does not have any ingredients on the label and that there doesn't seem to be an MSDS for it.

So I managed to get an MSDS for the Care Free and the Care Free Boost. I was hoping if you looked at it that you would be able to tell me what exactly is Care Free, is it an MPS ? is it a non clorine shock ?

About to start my conversion to dichlor/bleach method and want to make sure I have the right chemicals. I am also looking for Borates but every where i call they seem to not know what I am talking about. Proteam Gentle Spa seems to be the most widely used, however can't find it in Canada. Specifically, Toronto Ontario. If any Canucks here can recommend a product would be great.

MSDS:

http://rapidshare.com/files/456527596/CARE_FREE.pdf

http://rapidshare.com/files/456527582/CARE_FREE_BOOST.pdf

And here is a link to Beachomber Products -> http://www.beachcomberhottubs.com/hot-tub-lineup/accessories/water-care-products/beachcomber-cares.asp

Bromate seems to be a NON Clorine MPS. Just wondering if I can use that as part of my MPS step in the dichlor/bleach method.

[chem geek]

Care Free Boost is 60-100% Sodium dichloroisocyanurate which means it's Dichlor.

Care Free is also 60-100% Sodium dichloroisocyanurate which means it is also Dichlor.

I suspect that the Care Free is nearly pure Dichlor while the Care Free Boost is Dichlor with something else in it such as a clarifier. Unfortunately, I can't tell for sure. You should be able to find other sources of Dichlor if you need them, but using Care Free would be OK if you already have it. I doubt that Care Free Boost would cause any problems, but you don't really know its concentration whereas I suspect Care Free is nearly pure Dichlor.

As for borates, in addition to ProTeam Gentle Spa or ProTeam Supreme Plus, there is also Simplicity Maximizer (for pools, though can be used in a spa as well) and BioGuard Optimizer Plus. Of course, if you can get 20 Mule Team Borax in a grocery store (in the laundry aisle, but careful not to get the detergent) then you can use that plus acid. The main chemical to get that is easier than adding borax and acid is "boric acid". You could ask your pharmacist/druggist about boric acid as it's used in eye washes and for other uses, but you'd want the pure powdered stuff so you could measure it properly (it's also used as an insect killer when in concentrated form). Borax and boric acid are clearly sold in Canada since some people are apparently buying it as a food item (as described here) which of course is a definite no-no.

[Milly101]

Care Free Boost is 60-100% Sodium dichloroisocyanurate which means it's Dichlor.

Care Free is also 60-100% Sodium dichloroisocyanurate which means it is also Dichlor.

I suspect that the Care Free is nearly pure Dichlor while the Care Free Boost is Dichlor with something else in it such as a clarifier. Unfortunately, I can't tell for sure. You should be able to find other sources of Dichlor if you need them, but using Care Free would be OK if you already have it. I doubt that Care Free Boost would cause any problems, but you don't really know its concentration whereas I suspect Care Free is nearly pure Dichlor.

As for borates, in addition to ProTeam Gentle Spa or ProTeam Supreme Plus, there is also Simplicity Maximizer (for pools, though can be used in a spa as well) and BioGuard Optimizer Plus. Of course, if you can get 20 Mule Team Borax in a grocery store (in the laundry aisle, but careful not to get the detergent) then you can use that plus acid. The main chemical to get that is easier than adding borax and acid is "boric acid". You could ask your pharmacist/druggist about boric acid as it's used in eye washes and for other uses, but you'd want the pure powdered stuff so you could measure it properly (it's also used as an insect killer when in concentrated form). Borax and boric acid are clearly sold in Canada since some people are apparently buying it as a food item (as described here) which of course is a definite no-no.

Thanx alot for the info. What about MPS ? Beachcomber told me their Bromate product on their site is an MPS but it looks like it is used with bromine.

[chem geek]

Their "bromate" product does sound like MPS, but I don't see an MSDS for it so don't know for sure. Usually, when one says "non-chlorine shock" it's MPS.

[Milly101]

Their "bromate" product does sound like MPS, but I don't see an MSDS for it so don't know for sure. Usually, when one says "non-chlorine shock" it's MPS.

Thanx. Beachcomber rep told me their Clear and clean product was an MPS. Could be used with either clorine or bromine. Bromate is simply for bromine shock.

So I completed decon and started the dichlor/ bleach method. So far all is going well. Thanx again for the awesome support.