Bromine Too High

[njmurvin]

Using the Taylor 2106 test kit for my Marquis Everyday 660, I have been consistently getting high readings of bromine (the test using the powder and drops) - well over 10ppm. I abandoned my Spa Frog and am using a simple floater with some bromine tablets in it. I have an ozonator as well. My ph is right around 7.4. I have taken the cover off and run the jets on full to get the bromine levels back down under 6 but after putting the cover on for a few days, the bromine runs back up to over 10. I have nearly shut down the floater completely leaving only about a 1/2 inch exposed to the tablets. The spa hasn't been used since I last shocked it with bleach a couple of weeks ago. I can take the floater out for awhile and see what happens, but I'm going to be away for a week and don't really want to leave it out. But, I also don't want to cause any damage by having too high of a bromine level. Any suggestions? Would less tablets in the floater make a difference?

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

First, you wont damage the tub with bromine to high, if the PH stays good. How long since your last water change? Bromine is a "renewable" sanitizer. Over time the tablets add bromide and just keep adding it. When you shock the tub, it re-establishes the bromide back to bromine, plus the ozone also helps "shock" these back into bromine. using less tablets will help, if the reading is high and no one is going to be using the tub, the filters are clean, you should be able to take the floater out for the week and still have a bromine reading when you get back. If its been 3-4 months since a water change, you are due. i would also read waterbears post on bromine, he has a very nice write up that may clean things up a bit.

[njmurvin]

First, you wont damage the tub with bromine to high, if the PH stays good. How long since your last water change? Bromine is a "renewable" sanitizer. Over time the tablets add bromide and just keep adding it. When you shock the tub, it re-establishes the bromide back to bromine, plus the ozone also helps "shock" these back into bromine. using less tablets will help, if the reading is high and no one is going to be using the tub, the filters are clean, you should be able to take the floater out for the week and still have a bromine reading when you get back. If its been 3-4 months since a water change, you are due. i would also read waterbears post on bromine, he has a very nice write up that may clean things up a bit.

Thanks. I have Waterbear's writeup on bromine printed out and I keep it with my chemicals. However, I must have missed the part where the bromine tabs added to the bromide bank over time - I'll go back and try to find that. The spa is new and it has been about 2 months since the initial fill and it has only been used once (don't ask). I think it's a little early to change the water. I'll take the cover off again and run the bromine level back down, remove some tabs from the floater and close its window even more.

When you say the ozonator "helps shock these back into bromine", is this bromine reflected on the tests I'm doing? I was under the impression that the effects of the ozonator were undetected by the bromine tests and that's why they (Marquis) say that you can keep a lower level of bromine 1-1.5ppm when using the ozonator (or maybe I'm confusing this with the Spa Frog mineral cartridge).

At any rate, I'm glad to hear that the high bromine levels won't hurt the tub in case they run up while I'm away.

[chem geek]

When you say the ozonator "helps shock these back into bromine", is this bromine reflected on the tests I'm doing? I was under the impression that the effects of the ozonator were undetected by the bromine tests and that's why they (Marquis) say that you can keep a lower level of bromine 1-1.5ppm when using the ozonator (or maybe I'm confusing this with the Spa Frog mineral cartridge).

At any rate, I'm glad to hear that the high bromine levels won't hurt the tub in case they run up while I'm away.

The ozonator produces ozone that does not persist long enough to last in the bulk spa water so will not register on chlorine/bromine tests, but some of the ozone injected from the ozonator into the spa water circulation system will oxidize some of the bromide to bromine and that bromine will show up in the test (some ozone also oxidizes bromine to bromate, but this is in smaller amounts). The net result is that you won't need to have your bromine tab feeder set as high because the ozonator will help provide some sustained level of bromine.

Higher sanitizer or oxidizer levels, be it bromine, chlorine or MPS, will be harsher on spa surfaces and components, mostly the hot tub cover. However, it's all relative and if only for a few days is not likely to be a problem. Bromine doesn't outgas as quickly as chlorine and it's not as strong an oxidizer (unless compared to chlorine with a lot of CYA in the water).

[paulsimmons]

Using the Taylor 2106 test kit for my Marquis Everyday 660, I have been consistently getting high readings of bromine (the test using the powder and drops) - well over 10ppm. I abandoned my Spa Frog and am using a simple floater with some bromine tablets in it. I have an ozonator as well. My ph is right around 7.4. I have taken the cover off and run the jets on full to get the bromine levels back down under 6 but after putting the cover on for a few days, the bromine runs back up to over 10. I have nearly shut down the floater completely leaving only about a 1/2 inch exposed to the tablets. The spa hasn't been used since I last shocked it with bleach a couple of weeks ago. I can take the floater out for awhile and see what happens, but I'm going to be away for a week and don't really want to leave it out. But, I also don't want to cause any damage by having too high of a bromine level. Any suggestions? Would less tablets in the floater make a difference?

I would drain the spa and start with fresh water then start with the floater on a low setting and adjust accordingly. With the floating dispenser, you should be able to maintain a very consistent bromine level even when the spa is not in use.

[waterbear]

Bromide ions in the water, whether from the addition of sodium bromide or organic bromine (bromine tabs) are converted into bromine sanitizer (hypobromous acid) by an oxidizer. Chlorine, MPS, and ozone will all oxidize bromide into hypobroumus acid (which is what you measure when you test for bromine). Organic Bromine (bromine tabs) add both bromide ions and chlorine to the water at the same time to produce your bromine sanitizer (There is a bromine tab that does not contain chlorine but it is used with MPS as an oxidizer and is really no different than inorganic 2 step bromine using sodium bromide and an oxidizer). The bromide ions in the water are "renewable"; that is, they can be converted between bromide and hypobromous acid again and again (when the hypobromous acid sanitizes it converts back into bromide ions) and will continue to build up in the water with continued use of bromine tablets, which is why water changes are needed every 3 to 4 months.

Hope this makes things a bit clearer.

[PFC5]

I could never seem to get any Bromine readings when I tried the 3 step process when I initially got my brand new spa even with the floater open all the way, and had to crush tablets to get a reading. I ended up with 50% more bromide than they said and this still happened. The only way I could get readings was by shocking or crushing tablets and I couldn't keep the water crystal clear like I can with the Dichlor/Chlorine method. I wonder if it was because the tub/pipes were new and as a few have stated you have to change the water after the first month after the new pipes leach off some. That could explain why I had no significant readings when I tried it. Does this make sense?

I would consider going back to the simplicity of the 3 step Bromine system if this new spa theory was the likely reason. What do you think?

[chem geek]

Yes that makes sense. If you didn't use Spa System Flush and/or do a superchlorination procedure after you got your new spa, then the oxidizer demand could be quite high. Also, the first water change is the shortest anyway even doing everything right. You could certainly try going back to bromine on your next water change if you prefer the convenience of having a floating feeder for the dosing. If you use your spa every day or two, then Dichlor-then-bleach is easy because you just add sufficient chlorine after your soak, but if you use the spa less frequently then its more work with chlorine as you still need to add it when you aren't using the spa.

[PFC5]

Yes that makes sense. If you didn't use Spa System Flush and/or do a superchlorination procedure after you got your new spa, then the oxidizer demand could be quite high. Also, the first water change is the shortest anyway even doing everything right. You could certainly try going back to bromine on your next water change if you prefer the convenience of having a floating feeder for the dosing. If you use your spa every day or two, then Dichlor-then-bleach is easy because you just add sufficient chlorine after your soak, but if you use the spa less frequently then its more work with chlorine as you still need to add it when you aren't using the spa.

I may try it again in the spring since I still have Bromine Tablets and the float. My spa also has an ozinator as well, so that seems to be better suited for a bromine system than a chlorine system especially if you do not go in more than 2-3x per week. I just got very frustrated with the water being cloudy and never being able to hold a bromine level. I only learned AFTER changing to chlorine that what happened to me with the first fill of a new spa is normal.

That is what makes this place a great place to learn. Most spa dealers/mfg do not tell you these things it seems, and they should IMO, because they should not want customers frustrated with owning a spa as it must hurt their business at some point.

[waterbear]

and had to crush tablets to get a reading.

You did add the sodium bromide and then liquid chlorine or MPS, right? If you have a bromide bank in the water and you add an oxidizer you should show a bromine reading. If there is a high sanitizer demand then it wont last long but you should get a reading initially.

[PFC5]

and had to crush tablets to get a reading.

You did add the sodium bromide and then liquid chlorine or MPS, right? If you have a bromide bank in the water and you add an oxidizer you should show a bromine reading. If there is a high sanitizer demand then it wont last long but you should get a reading initially.

Yes I used a whole bottle of Bromide and then added more when I couldn't hold a bromine reading. The only time I could hold a bromine reading was by crushing a tablet or two. Every time I shocked it, I got a high reading, but 6 hours later it would be gone again. I really think it was the leaching of the pipes on a new spa as the only likely reason it couldn't hold a bromine level.

[waterbear]

and had to crush tablets to get a reading.

You did add the sodium bromide and then liquid chlorine or MPS, right? If you have a bromide bank in the water and you add an oxidizer you should show a bromine reading. If there is a high sanitizer demand then it wont last long but you should get a reading initially.

Yes I used a whole bottle of Bromide and then added more when I couldn't hold a bromine reading. The only time I could hold a bromine reading was by crushing a tablet or two. Every time I shocked it, I got a high reading, but 6 hours later it would be gone again. I really think it was the leaching of the pipes on a new spa as the only likely reason it couldn't hold a bromine level.

Now that you explain it further it does sound like you had a high sanitizer demand caused by biofilm in the plumbing.

[waterbear]

everyone addressed a lot of things it could be. but you say you hadent been in for a couple weeks. bromine attacks bacteria. if noones getting in the tub,then no bacteria is either, then the bromine has nothing to attack and therefor will just stay in the tubs and build up. you might have to use just one or two tabs if youre not using the tub that much. overall i do here more trouble out of bromine as far as keeping levels balanced. not that bromine is bad, just takes a little more work.

Have to disagee with you...bromine is actually EASIER than chorine and more forgiving when done properly. Perhaps you should do your homework a bit ahd read the forum before posting as much as you have in the past two days.

[PFC5]

and had to crush tablets to get a reading.

You did add the sodium bromide and then liquid chlorine or MPS, right? If you have a bromide bank in the water and you add an oxidizer you should show a bromine reading. If there is a high sanitizer demand then it wont last long but you should get a reading initially.

Yes I used a whole bottle of Bromide and then added more when I couldn't hold a bromine reading. The only time I could hold a bromine reading was by crushing a tablet or two. Every time I shocked it, I got a high reading, but 6 hours later it would be gone again. I really think it was the leaching of the pipes on a new spa as the only likely reason it couldn't hold a bromine level.

Now that you explain it further it does sound like you had a high sanitizer demand caused by biofilm in the plumbing.

I knew this couldn't be the way bromine systems work or else why would anyone use it? I didn't know and no one told me about a new tub needing the initial fill replaced sooner and purged, and learned that here after already changing over to chlorine, but it makes sense as the only explanation. Does bromine systems keep the water crystal clear like chlorine does? If so, I may go back to that in the springtime as I think that would be easier on the wife to handle, instead of me doing it alone?

[chem geek]

Bromine allows you to use bromine tabs so that is definitely easier if you aren't soaking every day since you don't need to worry about adding sanitizer in between soaks (though you should still add extra oxidizer after your soak if not soaking every day or two). With chlorine, you'd have to have a separate system to do the same thing -- something like a peristaltic pump or a saltwater chlorine generator system.

Bromine is not quite as strong an oxidizer as chlorine, but occasional shocking seems to take care of it. I'm not sure if it's from shocking with chlorine or if its the elevate bromine level that fixes any such dull water issues. A recent market survey I looked at showed that around 50% of people use chlorine in their spas, 37% use bromine, 7% use non-halogen systems and the rest didn't respond. Around 60% of spa users directly add sanitizer while 34% use a container dispenser (floating feeder) and 6% don't add any chemicals (could include saltwater chlorine generators as well).

[PFC5]

Does bromine tend to leave less clear water compared to chlorine tubs?

[jennylou]

Bromide ions in the water, whether from the addition of sodium bromide or organic bromine (bromine tabs) are converted into bromine sanitizer (hypobromous acid) by an oxidizer. Chlorine, MPS, and ozone will all oxidize bromide into hypobroumus acid (which is what you measure when you test for bromine). Organic Bromine (bromine tabs) add both bromide ions and chlorine to the water at the same time to produce your bromine sanitizer (There is a bromine tab that does not contain chlorine but it is used with MPS as an oxidizer and is really no different than inorganic 2 step bromine using sodium bromide and an oxidizer). The bromide ions in the water are "renewable"; that is, they can be converted between bromide and hypobromous acid again and again (when the hypobromous acid sanitizes it converts back into bromide ions) and will continue to build up in the water with continued use of bromine tablets, which is why water changes are needed every 3 to 4 months.

Hello! Excuse me for jumping into someone else's thread, but I am also having trouble with the bromine tests, I have a bromine float and I added the brominating concentrate (SpaGuard) to build up the bromine bank, as was suggested in your post, and then added the MPS to shock it. I got a reading of bromine reading of 7.5ppm yesterday morning, and then 1.5 last night. I went in last night with some friends, and added more shock after I got out. This morning my reading is 0 with the Taylor k-2106 test kit.

If I understand it correctly, The tabs and concentrate I added are bromide ions, which get converted into bromine sanitizer by either ozone, or some type of shock (either Chlorine or MPS). When I do the test, I am testing for the level of bromine sanitizer. Assuming I added enough brominating concentrate to get the bank up, or that my tabs are finally starting to dissolve, the reason I am having a 0 reading is that the bromine sanitizer has all been converted back into bromide ions because we've been sitting around in the spa for hours at a time. Is that correct? So, to raise my level on the tests, I need to shock more, not necessarily add more brominating concentrate or open the floater more, is that right?

If we have 2 people using the hot tub every night for 20 minutes, and 1 person using it every morning, do I need to shock more often then once a week? Do I have to run these tests all the time to see if I've got enough bromine to sanitize the tub, or will this all stabilize at some point so I can test weekly?

Thank you in advance.

[PFC5]

From what I understand, the tablets are bromine (not bromide) mixed with chlorine to also activate the bromide reserve already added for regular steady disinfection. If you have a brand new spa you should drain, purge and refill within the first month to remove the mfg & wet test remnants left in at the factory. I could never get steady bromine readings on my brand new tub unless I added chlorine to activate the bromide reserve, even with the 3 tablets in the floater set to the most open setting. The reason was because the bromine was getting used up by those remnants faster than it could dissolve more tablets. Is your tub a new tub? If so you might want to do a drain, purge and refill. It will be a lot cheaper than continually trying to add more bromine to oxidize those left over organics in the pipes.

For your usage I would guess adding 1-2oz of MPS after each soak as you described, and do the weekly shock also. But when you have more people in soaking (you didn't say how many or how long) you have to increase the amounts and maybe put some MPS in before the soak so a reserve can handle the higher bather waste with more people in it like last night. But maybe the experts here can provide more exact amounts to add since I changed over to the chlorine>bleach method after I refilled my new spa.

Hope this helps!

[waterbear]

You are all making bromine harder than it is! IT IS NOT THE SAME AS USING CHLORINE!!!!!!

You create your bromide bank

You oxidize to create the bromine sanitizer (I prefer bleach to oxidize since it is readily available and much cheaper than MPS. It is also going to keep the pH a bit more stable since MPS is acidic and so are tabs so that combination does deplete TA and lower pH.)

You put in the floater to maintain the bromine level. IF you have ozone then the floater won't need to be as open as far.

You shock weekly to every 2 weeks.

You should not need to shock before or after every soak like you do with Nature2 or chlorine, the floater should take care of this for you by constantly adding bromide ions and oxidizer to the water (these come from the tabs!)

IF you have a higher than normal bather load add a few teaspoons of bleach per 100 gallons water to bump up the bromine levels a bit but you do not need to add as much as if you were doing a weekly shock.

It's really easy and IT IS NOT AS COMPLICATED AS CHLORINE!

Here are instructions, follow them and you should have no problems! Don't overthink it, don't overcomplicate it, and don't try and use chlorine or N2 maintenance procedures--you don't need them and they won't work!

STOP OVER THINKING IT and just follow the step I outlined! You will be successful if you do.

FWIW, the most common type of bromine tablet are 1-Bromo-3-chloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin (BCDMH).

They dissolve very slowly in water to form hypobromous acid, bromide ions, and hypochlorous acid that then oxidizes the bromide ions into more hypobromous acid. If you leave out the initial addition of sodium bromide to the tub you will not have a bromine sanitized tub until enough of the tablets dissolve to create the bromide bank and this usually takes several weeks.

IF you are using 1,3-Dibromo-5,5-dimethylhydantoin (DBDMH), such as the Brilliance tabs from ARCH, then you are doing a 2 step bromine system, NOT a 3 step bromine system and the advantages of 2 step bromine are not as great as 3 step bromine. These form hypobromous acid in the water but once spent and the bromide ions are formed there is no oxidizer being added automatically to reform hypobromous acid so there really is not advantage over the less expensive inorganic (sodium bromide) two step bromine IMHO. This chemical does keep adding some hypobromous acid but since it is not supplying an oxidizer it will not reactive the bromide bank so you will need more tablets to automatically maintain the bromine level OR you need to treat it like an inorganic two step bromine and shock daily.

[jennylou]

You are all making bromine harder than it is! IT IS NOT THE SAME AS USING CHLORINE!!!!!!

You create your bromide bank

You oxidize to create the bromine sanitizer (I prefer bleach to oxidize since it is readily available and much cheaper than MPS. It is also going to keep the pH a bit more stable since MPS is acidic and so are tabs so that combination does deplete TA and lower pH.)

You put in the floater to maintain the bromine level. IF you have ozone then the floater won't need to be as open as far.

You shock weekly to every 2 weeks.

You should not need to shock before or after every soak like you do with Nature2 or chlorine, the floater should take care of this for you by constantly adding bromide ions and oxidizer to the water (these come from the tabs!)

IF you have a higher than normal bather load add a few teaspoons of bleach per 100 gallons water to bump up the bromine levels a bit but you do not need to add as much as if you were doing a weekly shock.

It's really easy and IT IS NOT AS COMPLICATED AS CHLORINE!

Here are instructions, follow them and you should have no problems! Don't overthink it, don't overcomplicate it, and don't try and use chlorine or N2 maintenance procedures--you don't need them and they won't work!

STOP OVER THINKING IT and just follow the step I outlined! You will be successful if you do.

FWIW, the most common type of bromine tablet are 1-Bromo-3-chloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin (BCDMH).

They dissolve very slowly in water to form hypobromous acid, bromide ions, and hypochlorous acid that then oxidizes the bromide ions into more hypobromous acid. If you leave out the initial addition of sodium bromide to the tub you will not have a bromine sanitized tub until enough of the tablets dissolve to create the bromide bank and this usually takes several weeks.

Yes, I followed it your instructions, Got the tub 1 week ago. It had already been filled and sanitized for about a week at the store, so I figure any biofilm in the pipes is gone, and I don't see the need for a refill. I added the floater with the 1-Bromo-3-chloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin tables at that time. It took me a few days to get the extra SpaGuard "Brominating Concentrate" (82.5% Sodium dichloro-s-trazinetrione 14.7% Sodium bromide) to create the bank. I added that on Thursday. I also added the SpaGuard Shock-Oxidizer (31.0% Potassium Peroxymonosulfate). (I have the MPS already so I figured I'd use that until it runs out and then switch to bleach).

I did get a good reading on Friday of 7.5 ppm, but yesterday and today I'm getting 0 readings for Bromine with my test kit. I wasn't sure if I should wait for the levels from the tabs to go up, if I should add more to the bank, or what. Water looks good and seems fine, but test says 0.

[waterbear]

It took me a few days to get the extra SpaGuard "Brominating Concentrate" (82.5% Sodium dichloro-s-trazinetrione 14.7% Sodium bromide) to create the bank. I added that on Thursday.

Wrong stuff....This is mostly chlorine (dichlor) and a bit of sodium bromide to make a one step product for 2 step bromine. You want PLAIN sodium bromide. It is available from several companies (HTH, LeisureTime, Proteam to name a few). Create your bromine bank properly and you won't have ANY PROBLEMS. What you added was mostly chlorine.

[jennylou]

It took me a few days to get the extra SpaGuard "Brominating Concentrate" (82.5% Sodium dichloro-s-trazinetrione 14.7% Sodium bromide) to create the bank. I added that on Thursday.

Wrong stuff....This is mostly chlorine (dichlor) and a bit of sodium bromide to make a one step product for 2 step bromine. You want PLAIN sodium bromide. It is available from several companies (HTH, LeisureTime, Proteam to name a few). Create your bromine bank properly and you won't have ANY PROBLEMS. What you added was mostly chlorine.

Ok, will do... Thanks for clearing that up! Your experience and advice are MUCH appreciated :-)

[PFC5]

Here is what you need to start the bromide reserve:

Bromide Granules

[waterbear]

everyone addressed a lot of things it could be. but you say you hadent been in for a couple weeks. bromine attacks bacteria. if noones getting in the tub,then no bacteria is either, then the bromine has nothing to attack and therefor will just stay in the tubs and build up. you might have to use just one or two tabs if youre not using the tub that much. overall i do here more trouble out of bromine as far as keeping levels balanced. not that bromine is bad, just takes a little more work.

Have to disagee with you...bromine is actually EASIER than chorine and more forgiving when done properly. Perhaps you should do your homework a bit ahd read the forum before posting as much as you have in the past two days.

i think this forums shows that bromine is more difficult. i didnt say bromine is bad. but it obviously takes more work. and ive never heard someone saying use bromine and chlorine. its always recommended not to mix, from where ive heard. and bleach is anywhere between 5%-10% chlorine. and bleach can be hard on a pool let alone a hot tub with seals and gaskets and jets and everything else. AND oxidizing is shocking. to get a shock, you either have to raise your sanitizer to a certain level, orr oxidize.

sooo since your the admin to this website, maybe you should do your homework.

Excuse me?

First off, I am a moderator, not the admin. FAIL!

Second, I know quite a bit about bromine chemistry and it is obvious that you don't. It is also obvious that you have not read the other posts in this thread or you would know that your comment about not mixing bromine and chlorine is ridiculous (look up BCDMH, the most common type of bromine tab. It contains both bromine and chlorine! FAIL!

Third, Oxidizing is not the same as shocking.

Oxidizing (oxidation)is a chemical process in which a molecule donates an oxygen atom (or removes a hydrogen atom). It is the opposite of reducing (reduction) where a hydrogen is donated or an oxygen is removed. Basic high school chemistry redox equation. This is applicable to bromine chemistry and is an integral part of how bromine works. Shocking is raising the sanitizer level high enough to break down combined halogens and/or kill algae. NOT the same thing at all. FAIL AGAIN!

Fourth, you have also been warned repeatedly about insulting other members and now you just insulted me.

FAIL AGAIN!!

Guess what. You are gone!

[PFC5]

Seems he cannot post without insulting someone huh? Have to love people who think they know everything and what they THINK they know is the opposite of what everyone else knows and seems to be common knowledge. How dumb to insult a mod on a forum too.