Liamfm Posted November 21, 2010 Report Share Posted November 21, 2010 Hi, I have a Hot Springs Sovereign from the year 2000. this past week I have been troubleshooting a blinking red power light. I thought that my circ pump (original 5000) was on its way out and was causing the heating element breaker to trip. I pulled the cover and found that the circ pump wasn't always working. Sometimes it would get 'stuck' and a light tap on the motor would start it spinning again. Figuring this was the problem I replaced the pump with the new E5 pump. I can say that it is moving a lot more water now (more bubbles from the ozone). However, i seem to have the same problem of the flashing red light. I came out this morning to find the light flashing. I reset the breaker for the tub inside the house and the heater kicked on and all seemed good. A couple hours later and the light is flashing again. The circ pump is still working, but the heater shuts off when the light is blinking. What is odd is that the overheat switch on the back side of the heater is not tripping. It had tripped before the new e5 pump (due to no circulation flow), but hasn't tripped since. Apart from water flow and heater operation I don't know what would cause a blinking power light. I'm pretty handy - can someone help me troubleshoot this and save me the $100 service call and/or throwing more parts at this (though I'm quite sure the pump needed to be replaced). Also, it's in the 20's today, and cold all week, so getting this fixed is a big deal as I don't want the temp to drop in the tub! Thanks in advance. Liam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spa God Posted November 21, 2010 Report Share Posted November 21, 2010 I had this scenario and it turned out to be a leak on the intake line to the pump... the air bubbles would build up in the head of the pump until it would cavitate and then you would get the blinking light, if the system happened to be calling for heat at the time... ( this is also consistent with the pump failure in the first place, if it was running dry from time to time) It was a nightmare to diagnose because it was sporadic because the pump would clear itself and run again and it only went OH if the the two things happened at the same time (the airlock, and the system calling for heat)It was even more of a nightmare to fix... totally inaccessible, destroyed the corner and the front skirt because on the model i was working on you could not remove the trim around the access door, or the corner!!! the trouble was from a small vinyl tube that was "teed" onto the main suction just the other side of the doghouse, i am unsure where this line goes (likely a bleed for one of the pumps) but i just crimped it off on the advice of the Hotsprings service department as it was totally inaccessible without ripping the whole tub apart... hope this is not your issue though because it was a bad day... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liamfm Posted November 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2010 Spa God - thanks! I hope that's not it, but let's say it is... how did you diagnose it? Anything that could be seen/felt on the intake side of the pump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan.The.Spa.Man Posted November 21, 2010 Report Share Posted November 21, 2010 Most likely you need to change one or both of the thermistors that screw into the heater. If you have a meter you can do an ohm test on them. They should read the same value, if not, post what you get for the values and what the actual water temp is and I can tell you which one is bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spa God Posted November 22, 2010 Report Share Posted November 22, 2010 Go with Dan on this one, much more likely... I have also seen the stereo cause this by the transducer back feeding though the board so unplug it from the board as well For the flow issue, you can generally hear the bubbles building up and see them through the Vinyl pipe that feeds the pump. It is unlikely this is your problem, in retrospect... The nightmare is just fresh in my mind :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liamfm Posted November 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2010 Dan, are the two thermistors easy to find? Are they both on the heating element? I'll check them tonight when I get back from work and report back - just wondering where I might find them... Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan.The.Spa.Man Posted November 22, 2010 Report Share Posted November 22, 2010 Dan, are the two thermistors easy to find? Are they both on the heating element? I'll check them tonight when I get back from work and report back - just wondering where I might find them... Thanks! Yeah, they both screw into the heater and have thin grey wires going up to the side of the box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liamfm Posted November 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2010 Dan, I assume I'll be disconnecting the plug at the circuit board and measuring from the plug end? Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan.The.Spa.Man Posted November 22, 2010 Report Share Posted November 22, 2010 Dan, I assume I'll be disconnecting the plug at the circuit board and measuring from the plug end? Thanks again! Exactly....the two numbers should be close to the same value. If they are more than slightly different then one is bad, but I usually replace them both anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liamfm Posted November 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2010 Dan, The top plug measured 6.88, the bottom 6.93. I would estimate the water temp at about 90F (was at 103 36 hrs ago). I'd say those two numbers are pretty close, which sucks because I was hoping one of them would tell me why the blinking red light... What next? thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan.The.Spa.Man Posted November 22, 2010 Report Share Posted November 22, 2010 Dan, The top plug measured 6.88, the bottom 6.93. I would estimate the water temp at about 90F (was at 103 36 hrs ago). I'd say those two numbers are pretty close, which sucks because I was hoping one of them would tell me why the blinking red light... What next? thanks again! Probably still the thermistors. The numbers may drift apart too much after the tub has been on for a while, then the light blinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liamfm Posted November 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2010 Dan, The top plug measured 6.88, the bottom 6.93. I would estimate the water temp at about 90F (was at 103 36 hrs ago). I'd say those two numbers are pretty close, which sucks because I was hoping one of them would tell me why the blinking red light... What next? thanks again! Probably still the thermistors. The numbers may drift apart too much after the tub has been on for a while, then the light blinks. Looks like p/n 38415 and 38416 for my 2000 sovereign spa. Are they really only $15 each? Also, when I pull it out should I expect lots of water coming out the hole? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan.The.Spa.Man Posted November 23, 2010 Report Share Posted November 23, 2010 Dan, The top plug measured 6.88, the bottom 6.93. I would estimate the water temp at about 90F (was at 103 36 hrs ago). I'd say those two numbers are pretty close, which sucks because I was hoping one of them would tell me why the blinking red light... What next? thanks again! Probably still the thermistors. The numbers may drift apart too much after the tub has been on for a while, then the light blinks. Looks like p/n 38415 and 38416 for my 2000 sovereign spa. Are they really only $15 each? Also, when I pull it out should I expect lots of water coming out the hole? Yeah, those are them. You can clamp off the plumbing lines with needle-nosed vise-grips, but I just pull one out quickly and pop the other one right in. You just have to make sure that the o-ring doesn't come flying out and get lost in the equipment compartment. It usually is stuck on the old thermistor. I put my thumb over the whole while I switch the o-ring to the new thermistor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourrunner72 Posted November 23, 2010 Report Share Posted November 23, 2010 Hi... I have a 2008 HotSpring Vanguard I just did a drain and refill and now I have the following issue: The spa & jets were working for a good half hour or so (when I was first circulating the new chemicals)...but, after turning off the jets the next time I came home I noticed the blinking red light and the water had never heated. Now, I notice that if I only power up the 20A, the spa stays on but if I power up the 30A (which kicks in the heater) the spa turns off after EXACTLY ONE MINUTE and has the blinking red. The dealer says it is probably air bubbles and says it will not be under warranty. Does this sound right to you guys? How do they know it is not the heater tripping something? Is it worth trying to drain the tub and refill again prior to paying for a service? Anything else to try? I tied draining some water out the slow drain while pumping new water into the filter pipe but that didn't work (not sure how long I need to do that though). Thanks! Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan.The.Spa.Man Posted November 23, 2010 Report Share Posted November 23, 2010 Hi... I have a 2008 HotSpring Vanguard I just did a drain and refill and now I have the following issue: The spa & jets were working for a good half hour or so (when I was first circulating the new chemicals)...but, after turning off the jets the next time I came home I noticed the blinking red light and the water had never heated. Now, I notice that if I only power up the 20A, the spa stays on but if I power up the 30A (which kicks in the heater) the spa turns off after EXACTLY ONE MINUTE and has the blinking red. The dealer says it is probably air bubbles and says it will not be under warranty. Does this sound right to you guys? How do they know it is not the heater tripping something? Is it worth trying to drain the tub and refill again prior to paying for a service? Anything else to try? I tied draining some water out the slow drain while pumping new water into the filter pipe but that didn't work (not sure how long I need to do that though). Thanks! Jeff Well it all boils down to wether or not the circ pump is pushing water. Is there water coming out from the bottom drain? If not that is why the power light is flashing. You may be able to clear the air pocket in the pump by turning the breaker on...let the pump try to run for 10 seconds or so, if it doesn't push water turn it off and on again....let it run for 10 seconds,,,etc. SOmetimes it takes 10-15 tries before it clears the air bubble and starts up. Other times it just won't clear and you have to manually bleed the air out of the circ pump by slightly removing the hose from the from of the pump until the air burps out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liamfm Posted November 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2010 Dan, I just want to say thank you! Tonight I replaced the hi limit thermistor and I think I have solved the problem. The tub is back to temp, I have a solid green and solid red light. We'll see if it lasts through the night. My understanding is that if the thermostat goes out I'll either have a "ready" light when the temp isn't actually what it is set at, or I'll have a blinking green light. Is this correct? I will probably internet order the thermostat just so I have one on hand. The local store wanted $27 a pop for these buggers. I'll report back in a day and let you know if the fix worked or if I'm back to square one. Thanks! Liam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan.The.Spa.Man Posted November 24, 2010 Report Share Posted November 24, 2010 Dan, I just want to say thank you! Tonight I replaced the hi limit thermistor and I think I have solved the problem. The tub is back to temp, I have a solid green and solid red light. We'll see if it lasts through the night. My understanding is that if the thermostat goes out I'll either have a "ready" light when the temp isn't actually what it is set at, or I'll have a blinking green light. Is this correct? I will probably internet order the thermostat just so I have one on hand. The local store wanted $27 a pop for these buggers. I'll report back in a day and let you know if the fix worked or if I'm back to square one. Thanks! Liam Usually flashing ready light means bad control thermistor. Solid ready light means the tub is within 2 degrees of the set temperature. Glad it's working for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liamfm Posted November 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2010 Dan, I just want to say thank you! Tonight I replaced the hi limit thermistor and I think I have solved the problem. The tub is back to temp, I have a solid green and solid red light. We'll see if it lasts through the night. My understanding is that if the thermostat goes out I'll either have a "ready" light when the temp isn't actually what it is set at, or I'll have a blinking green light. Is this correct? I will probably internet order the thermostat just so I have one on hand. The local store wanted $27 a pop for these buggers. I'll report back in a day and let you know if the fix worked or if I'm back to square one. Thanks! Liam Usually flashing ready light means bad control thermistor. Solid ready light means the tub is within 2 degrees of the set temperature. Glad it's working for you. Dan, AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! No go! I'm back to a flashing red light. Anywhere else I should look (could it be the control thermistor?) or should I call in the pros? Thanks, Liam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourrunner72 Posted November 24, 2010 Report Share Posted November 24, 2010 Hi... I have a 2008 HotSpring Vanguard I just did a drain and refill and now I have the following issue: The spa & jets were working for a good half hour or so (when I was first circulating the new chemicals)...but, after turning off the jets the next time I came home I noticed the blinking red light and the water had never heated. Now, I notice that if I only power up the 20A, the spa stays on but if I power up the 30A (which kicks in the heater) the spa turns off after EXACTLY ONE MINUTE and has the blinking red. The dealer says it is probably air bubbles and says it will not be under warranty. Does this sound right to you guys? How do they know it is not the heater tripping something? Is it worth trying to drain the tub and refill again prior to paying for a service? Anything else to try? I tied draining some water out the slow drain while pumping new water into the filter pipe but that didn't work (not sure how long I need to do that though). Thanks! Jeff Well it all boils down to wether or not the circ pump is pushing water. Is there water coming out from the bottom drain? If not that is why the power light is flashing. You may be able to clear the air pocket in the pump by turning the breaker on...let the pump try to run for 10 seconds or so, if it doesn't push water turn it off and on again....let it run for 10 seconds,,,etc. SOmetimes it takes 10-15 tries before it clears the air bubble and starts up. Other times it just won't clear and you have to manually bleed the air out of the circ pump by slightly removing the hose from the from of the pump until the air burps out. Thanks for the reply Dan! Water comes out when I take the cap off either of the external drains (so can we assume the pump is pushing water?)...As for the floor of the spa, it takes a little bit but bubbles do come out (I assume that is the ozonator working). I have not gotten in yet to see if the heater is on. I noticed that when I cycle power, sometimes it takes longer before it shuts off, but it still shuts off. As for your other suggestion, I will give it a try..thanks, Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hottubdan Posted November 24, 2010 Report Share Posted November 24, 2010 Hi... I have a 2008 HotSpring Vanguard I just did a drain and refill and now I have the following issue: The spa & jets were working for a good half hour or so (when I was first circulating the new chemicals)...but, after turning off the jets the next time I came home I noticed the blinking red light and the water had never heated. Now, I notice that if I only power up the 20A, the spa stays on but if I power up the 30A (which kicks in the heater) the spa turns off after EXACTLY ONE MINUTE and has the blinking red. The dealer says it is probably air bubbles and says it will not be under warranty. Does this sound right to you guys? How do they know it is not the heater tripping something? Is it worth trying to drain the tub and refill again prior to paying for a service? Anything else to try? I tied draining some water out the slow drain while pumping new water into the filter pipe but that didn't work (not sure how long I need to do that though). Thanks! Jeff Well it all boils down to wether or not the circ pump is pushing water. Is there water coming out from the bottom drain? If not that is why the power light is flashing. You may be able to clear the air pocket in the pump by turning the breaker on...let the pump try to run for 10 seconds or so, if it doesn't push water turn it off and on again....let it run for 10 seconds,,,etc. SOmetimes it takes 10-15 tries before it clears the air bubble and starts up. Other times it just won't clear and you have to manually bleed the air out of the circ pump by slightly removing the hose from the from of the pump until the air burps out. Thanks for the reply Dan! Water comes out when I take the cap off either of the external drains (so can we assume the pump is pushing water?)...As for the floor of the spa, it takes a little bit but bubbles do come out (I assume that is the ozonator working). I have not gotten in yet to see if the heater is on. I noticed that when I cycle power, sometimes it takes longer before it shuts off, but it still shuts off. As for your other suggestion, I will give it a try..thanks, Jeff When you filled it, where did you put your hose? Did you clean your filters? What technique? Have you tried running without filters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liamfm Posted November 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2010 Dan, any new advice for. Me? It seems that my thread was hijacked a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourrunner72 Posted November 25, 2010 Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 Hi... I have a 2008 HotSpring Vanguard I just did a drain and refill and now I have the following issue: The spa & jets were working for a good half hour or so (when I was first circulating the new chemicals)...but, after turning off the jets the next time I came home I noticed the blinking red light and the water had never heated. Now, I notice that if I only power up the 20A, the spa stays on but if I power up the 30A (which kicks in the heater) the spa turns off after EXACTLY ONE MINUTE and has the blinking red. The dealer says it is probably air bubbles and says it will not be under warranty. Does this sound right to you guys? How do they know it is not the heater tripping something? Is it worth trying to drain the tub and refill again prior to paying for a service? Anything else to try? I tied draining some water out the slow drain while pumping new water into the filter pipe but that didn't work (not sure how long I need to do that though). Thanks! Jeff Well it all boils down to wether or not the circ pump is pushing water. Is there water coming out from the bottom drain? If not that is why the power light is flashing. You may be able to clear the air pocket in the pump by turning the breaker on...let the pump try to run for 10 seconds or so, if it doesn't push water turn it off and on again....let it run for 10 seconds,,,etc. SOmetimes it takes 10-15 tries before it clears the air bubble and starts up. Other times it just won't clear and you have to manually bleed the air out of the circ pump by slightly removing the hose from the from of the pump until the air burps out. Thanks for the reply Dan! Water comes out when I take the cap off either of the external drains (so can we assume the pump is pushing water?)...As for the floor of the spa, it takes a little bit but bubbles do come out (I assume that is the ozonator working). I have not gotten in yet to see if the heater is on. I noticed that when I cycle power, sometimes it takes longer before it shuts off, but it still shuts off. As for your other suggestion, I will give it a try..thanks, Jeff When you filled it, where did you put your hose? Did you clean your filters? What technique? Have you tried running without filters? Sorry for piggy-backing on the thread...thought it was related because of the blinking red & HotSpring. I put the hose in the gray filter pipe when i filled it, but I can't remember if the hose may have slipped out or not. I cleaned the filters by removing, hosing down and replacing. I thought running without filters was a no-no? Won't it damage the spa? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourrunner72 Posted November 25, 2010 Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 Hi... I have a 2008 HotSpring Vanguard I just did a drain and refill and now I have the following issue: The spa & jets were working for a good half hour or so (when I was first circulating the new chemicals)...but, after turning off the jets the next time I came home I noticed the blinking red light and the water had never heated. Now, I notice that if I only power up the 20A, the spa stays on but if I power up the 30A (which kicks in the heater) the spa turns off after EXACTLY ONE MINUTE and has the blinking red. The dealer says it is probably air bubbles and says it will not be under warranty. Does this sound right to you guys? How do they know it is not the heater tripping something? Is it worth trying to drain the tub and refill again prior to paying for a service? Anything else to try? I tied draining some water out the slow drain while pumping new water into the filter pipe but that didn't work (not sure how long I need to do that though). Thanks! Jeff Well it all boils down to wether or not the circ pump is pushing water. Is there water coming out from the bottom drain? If not that is why the power light is flashing. You may be able to clear the air pocket in the pump by turning the breaker on...let the pump try to run for 10 seconds or so, if it doesn't push water turn it off and on again....let it run for 10 seconds,,,etc. SOmetimes it takes 10-15 tries before it clears the air bubble and starts up. Other times it just won't clear and you have to manually bleed the air out of the circ pump by slightly removing the hose from the from of the pump until the air burps out. Thanks for the reply Dan! Water comes out when I take the cap off either of the external drains (so can we assume the pump is pushing water?)...As for the floor of the spa, it takes a little bit but bubbles do come out (I assume that is the ozonator working). I have not gotten in yet to see if the heater is on. I noticed that when I cycle power, sometimes it takes longer before it shuts off, but it still shuts off. As for your other suggestion, I will give it a try..thanks, Jeff When you filled it, where did you put your hose? Did you clean your filters? What technique? Have you tried running without filters? Sorry for piggy-backing on the thread...thought it was related because of the blinking red & HotSpring. I put the hose in the gray filter pipe when i filled it, but I can't remember if the hose may have slipped out or not. I cleaned the filters by removing, hosing down and replacing. I thought running without filters was a no-no? Won't it damage the spa? I tried it with filters removed...same issue...Maybe the circulation pump isn't working...not sure how to know for sure. Cycling power hasn't helped yet. I guess that just leaves bleeding the air out manually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liamfm Posted November 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 Dan, I turned down the water temp thinking that maybe things got messed up when the temp neared 103. Even at 84 the red light starts flashing after a couple hrs. I am now thinking they despite the ohm values coming from the control it may not be sending the correct info and the heater stays on until the high limit cuts it off. Plausible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liamfm Posted November 26, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2010 UPDATE #2: Woke up this morning to find that the tub was still at temp but that the ready AND power lights were both off. Had to reset the breaker to get the jets and/or clean buttons to kick on the jet pump. We'll see if this happens again. It was very windy and we could have had a power outage (brown?) for a split second. No clocks needed resetting in the house, so I'm thinking it is still a problem with the tub. Again this is with the aux panel unplugged. Are there any problems with leaving the AUX panel unplugged? Would it cause both lights to go off after some time? UPDATE: The spa is holding steady at 103F after disconnecting the aux panel (jet/light panel inside the tub). Yeah - so it seems that was the problem (I think). I guess it's time for a new panel, again (this one is only 2 years old I think) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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