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Mps Shock-What Happened


glennmacph

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my onzen chlorine salt generator was set at its usual setting of 4 out of 6,put in 5 ounces of refresh(mps) for a shock and by morning my free chlorine level shoot up to 11 ppm, just after the shock I check fc reading and it was 2ppm

I turned down my generator to 2 for now to try to lower the FC level

does any one have a theory and solution for my next shock treatment

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Non-chlorine shock will register as Combined Chlorine (CC) on most chlorine tests, though initially right after you add it there will also be bleed-through to Free Chlorine (FC) and the contaminant portions of non-chlorine shock may also register as FC. You can use the Taylor K-2042 kit to remove the interference, though that may not work for the contamination, only for the MPS itself. The contamination, however, should dissipate in its effects after a day (it's broken down almost immediately if there is silver ion present as with Nature2 systems).

Any particular reason you are using non-chlorine shock? You could just shock with extra chlorine (i.e. bleach) if needed, though usually it isn't necessary unless you are using the Onzen for a baseline FC and want to add more oxidizer after you soak in which case you could just add bleach.

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5 ounces is a lot of MPS. Is that how much you normally add? What is the volume of your tub? Are you measuring ounces in volume or by weight? 1 ounce (volume) = 1.3 ounces (weight).

The general rule of thumb is about 7 teaspoons of 43 % MPS per person-hour. 7 teaspoons is equal to 1.17 ounces volume or about 1.5 ounces (weight). How did you determine that 5 ounces was needed?

What type of chlorine test are you using? Are you using test strips or FAS-DPD? Did you have any CC before adding the MPS? If you have CC, then the MPS could oxidize the nitrogen and convert the CC to FC.

Another possibility is if your water contains any bromide ions, then the MPS will oxidize the bromide to bromine, which will register on the FC test. 1 ppm bromide ions will register as .89 ppm FC when oxidized by MPS. Onzen salt blend is made from Dead Sea salt, which has very high concentrations of bromide.

Another possibility is that the MPS might be a "Multifunctional Shock", which contains dichlor.

MSDS

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OK-I'm way over my head here-I'm partially colour blind and will be getting a lamotte color pro 7 water analyzer soon.

I am only using aquachek test strips(fc,ph,alk)and the dealer will analyze my water when I get in trouble,but they contradict everything I read here about water chemistry,I believe they don't know a lot about water,there answer to my questions is"your over analyzing this".

I got a reading from the dealers analyzer of 3.7fc and .8 cc this is why I chose to shock using arctic pure refresh(mps)so I could reduce the cc to .2 or lower but not raise my Chlorine to an unusable level,which didn't happen.

Why so much refresh? I thought I read, 1 ounce(25 grams{1 capful}) per 400 liters,my tub is 2200 liters,thats why I chose 5 capfuls!!!!!

The dealer makes me feel as if I'm bothering them and I have no where to turn too.My water is not crystal clear,But that may be the salt doing this for all I know(the dealer fills the show tub without salt I found out and I wonder why now)

The dealer says my sea salt blend is chlorine only,no bromine in it!!!!!!and not to use refresh with my system.

I've had my tub for a month now so I'm going to dump the water anyways and start over once my new tester comes in(this week)I just don't want to make the mistakes I've already made,but I don't know what I doing with this onzen system

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Ok, let's start with the basics. First, you should read the following posts.

Nitro's Approach to Water Maintenance

Chlorine Demand

Dichlor/bleach Method In A Nutshell

The dichlor/bleach method is what you want to use. Your salt system will supply most of the chlorine with a little bit of help from bleach as needed.

Just remember that every person-hour of soaking in a hot (104ºF) tub usually needs around 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor or 5 fluid ounces of 6% bleach or 7 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (43% MPS) to oxidize bather waste. This is equivalent to 7 ppm FC in 350 gallons per person-hour of soaking. - chem geek

You should turn off your salt system and just use dichlor until you have about 20 to 30 ppm of cyanuric acid. Then you should use your salt system to supply as much of your chlorine as possible without going over. You can make up the difference with bleach or MPS. Chem geek's above guidelines are per person-hour and should be considered a starting point. You will have to adjust the amounts you use based on your test results.

You need to get a good test kit. I recommend the Taylor K-2006. It uses FAS-DPD to test for FC and CC. It also includes tests for pH, TA, Calcium and cyanuric acid.

You should maintain a CSI of less than -0.2 to help prevent scaling in the chlorine generating cell (assumes that you do not have any plaster or grout).

MPS will show up in a combined chlorine test. You might not have had any CC. You can get an MPS interference remover reagent, as chem geek noted above, to measure CC in the presence of MPS.

There are several reasons that you tested a high FC after adding the MPS.

1) High levels of MPS can show up on the FC test.

2) MPS oxidized CC to FC.

3) MPS oxidized bromide ions to bromine, which will show up in a FC test.

If the salt blend is from the Dead Sea, then it probably contains bromide. Even regular sea salt contains bromide. You probably have at least 6.5 ppm of bromide ions in the water, which will read as 5.8 ppm FC when oxidized by MPS. You could find out who makes the salt and ask them how much bromide it contains.

You should avoid MPS for a while and just use bleach to shock as needed until you have a better understanding of your chlorine demand and how much CC you normally get under regular use.

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Getting a good test kit is an excellent idea. Without it you don't know what actually is happening in your tub. Because tubs run at higher temperatures and have tremendously less water than swimming pools, things can go bad very quickly in your tub if you don't monitor it.

A couple of suggestions:

1. Use the POOL CALCULATOR to figure out how much of what chemical to put into your tub.

2. If your chlorine gets too high, add some hydrogen peroxide to lower the FC. I'm assuming that it's OK to use in a salt water system. Maybe one of the technical types on this forum can comment on using it in saltwater??? I have a fresh water tub that holds about 275 gallons. If I add 2 fluid ounces of hydrogen peroxide it lowers my FC by about 4-5ppm. When I add the peroxide I run the circulation pump for about 10-15 minutes to make sure that it's had a chance to react with the FC. Peroxide is relatively cheap. You can get it at most drug or grocery stores in the first aid aisle.

Good luck,

- Simon

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Using hydrogen peroxide to reduce chlorine levels works just fine. However, I suspect that this tub contains enough bromide to make at least part of the measurable FC attributable to bromine. Hydrogen peroxide will oxidize bromide to bromine, and reduce bromine to bromide. Which reaction ends up happening faster depends on the concentrations of reactants. Therefore, hydrogen peroxide might end up reducing the total measured FC, or it might end up increasing it.

Note: The dealer indicates that the salt blend does not contain bromine/bromide. However, I think that it probably does because it is not a sodium chloride salt, but a sea salt blend. Some references indicate that the salt comes from the Dead Sea, which is known for its high bromide levels.

Use of hydrogen peroxide should not pose a problem with a salt system.

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Your all right by suggesting "go back to the basics" I have ordered my "colourQpro analizer"due to colour blindness and it should arrive in 10 business days from now.In the meantime, I will further educate myself reading past and present posts you have all supplied

thank so much, I'm starting to feel better about understanding a tub now,I'll never go in a public hottub again(ha ha ha )

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You could very easily ruin your salt system by using some of the chemicals that are suggested. I know with genisis, you can not use CYA or hydrogen peroxide (they suggest sprite, yes the soda to lower bromine levels). I would call the manufacture of your particular salt system.

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The Genesis system is a bromine system that uses electrolysis to generate bromine from added sodium bromide. The owner's manual here says that for shocking one should not use a store-bought chlorine shock but can (p. 19) "use one teaspoon of a non-chlorine shock provided by your dealer or a two ounce jigger (double shot glass) of ordinary laundry bleach".

It is logical for them to avoid Cal-Hypo since increased Calcium Hardness could lead to scaling in the cell. They appear to avoid stabilized chlorine products for shocking as well though I'm not clear as to why they want to avoid the Cyanuric Acid (CYA). They make a big point in the manual on reducing phosphates which (on pp. 15,17) they say will promote algae growth and inhibit bromine production.

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My point, it says not to use store bought chlorine, only bleach or MPS. Thats why i would check before he starts dumping in dichlor ect. I know Genisis is a bromine, but quatom is also bringing up bromine even though the owner states it is a chlorine system. I also have asked them about hydrogen peroxide, they said absolutley not...use sprite? personally for the costs of these systems I would call the maker of his particular salt system and ask, (that does not mean the tub manufacturer, they tend not to know much about what they put in the tub)

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My point, it says not to use store bought chlorine, only bleach or MPS. Thats why i would check before he starts dumping in dichlor ect. I know Genisis is a bromine, but quatom is also bringing up bromine even though the owner states it is a chlorine system. I also have asked them about hydrogen peroxide, they said absolutley not...use sprite? personally for the costs of these systems I would call the maker of his particular salt system and ask, (that does not mean the tub manufacturer, they tend not to know much about what they put in the tub)

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Genesis uses sodium bromide to generate bromine. Therefore, cyanuric acid would not be helpful for their system. However, 30 ppm should not cause any problems.

Hydrogen peroxide would oxidize the bromide to bromine, so it can't be used as a reducing agent, but I don't see any reason it would damage the cell.

Post a link to any source that advises adding Sprite to a hot tub. Sprite contains citric acid, which will reduce chlorine or bromine. I don't know how much citric acid Sprite contains, so I don't know how much of an effect it would have. However, I don't think that it is a good thing to use. I think that the sugar would be bad for the water. It would encourage bacteria, and fungus to grow.

Using cyanuric acid in a chlorine based pool or hot tub has significant benefits and won't harm the salt system.

Using hydrogen peroxide to reduce chlorine levels in a spa with a salt-water chlorine generator should not cause any problems. Obviously, you don't want to make a habit of overproducing chlorine and then neutralizing it, as that is wasteful and causes the cell to work longer than necessary.

Some of the oxygen in the hydrogen peroxide probably gets oxidized in the cell to oxygen gas, which reduces the efficiency of the cell, but this shouldn't occur to any great extent as most of the peroxide is oxidized by chlorine.

Note: There are some references that indicated that MPS can oxidize chloride to chlorine. I don't think that this happens very much in most pools or hot tubs. However, in this case, where the water is hot and the salt level is at 3,000 ppm, it probably creates some chlorine.

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arctic dealer says no to refresh(mps) and arctic corporate says yes to refresh(chlorine salt generator)this is why its so confusing to a newbie.MPS is an oxidizer and granule chlorine(boost) is a sanitizer,you can only get rid of CC's by superchlorinizing or mps,is this correct?????????????????????

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Quatum, Call Genesis, thats my source, straight from the horses mouth, from the company that made the gensis. You can ask them all the questions you want, they have multiple reasons for why the require only certain chemicals in the tub. but I think i will do what they say...keep the warrenties in effect and not argue with them, have better things to do, and sorry about the confusion, sprite was to reduce the bromine level, not "shock" the tub. i was responding to simonic who says to add peroxide to reduce chlorine.

Glennmacph, can you find out who makes the system for artic, and call them direct? i know Clearwater, the spa line i have, had no idea how to run the Gensis system, so i had to call gensis direct. And you are right to the only way to get rid of CC

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HHT, yes, I understand that you meant that Sprite was for reducing bromine levels. I did not think that you meant that it was used for shocking. I don't think that it is a good idea to add Sprite to a hot tub.

I understand why they don't recommend cyanuric acid. Genesis is a bromine based tub and cyanuric acid won't help. glennmacph does not have a bromine based tub. Well, I am not sure if there is enough bromine to make a difference, or not. Since the tub might be mostly chlorine, then cyanuric acid will probably help, and couldn't hurt.

I am not recommending that hydrogen peroxide be used in this tub, or in a bromine based tub. I think that it OK to use in a chlorine based tub, but it should not be something that it needed on a regular basis if the chemistry is carefully maintained.

I don't think that I am in any disagreement with Genesis' advice other than to use Sprite, which I think is a bad idea.

glennmacph, I recommend that you add 30 ppm cyanuric acid to your tub. You can call the manufacturer of the system if you want to see what they advise. MPS is fine for you to use. You need to determine the amount of MPS that you need to use based on the test results. You should also inquire about the bromide content of the salt.

These are just my opinions; you will have to decide what to do.

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It sounded to me in one of your posts, that "using hydrogen peroxide is just fine", now you say you dont suggest it? You also bring up that it will re-establish bromine in his tub, no where does he say he has added bromide salts, he states chlorine. You are getting a bit confusing to me, never mind most homeowners because you contadict yourself and add in equations he does not state he has. I was just suggesting he can the maker of the system before he adds a bunch of stuff that could possibly damage his system.

As far as sprite, i asked them 2 times..."Sprite...are you sure?" and they were quite clear thats what they want you to do to reduce bromine levels. The 2 jiggers of bleach is only in an instance if you don't have MPS, it should not be done on a weekly basis because they daont want the salts from chlorine. No CYA is not just because it is bromine, it is because they don't want the stabilizer period, such as they dont want addtional calcium or any of the other chemicals found in various chlorines. they also dont like most of the clarifiers, sea klear is suggested. Maybe their systems are made differently, since all you can use is bromide, you can not use any other salts, they don't work and will ruin the plates, but there are some salt systems that you can use several different salts in and thy work??? I have not had the time to find out why yet, that is for my january classes i take.

I am tired of everytime i write something, what little I have a chance too, you try to contridict what i say, correct me if i am wrong, fine, but dont blast everything I say, specially if you have had no contact with the manufactures of this equipment. I do this stuff everyday, 10-12 hours a day, love my work and customers are of the most importance to me, first...their safty, then equipment saftey, at the least cost to them.

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It sounded to me in one of your posts, that "using hydrogen peroxide is just fine", now you say you dont suggest it?

I said, "Using hydrogen peroxide to reduce chlorine levels works just fine.". I never recommended it for this spa.

You also bring up that it will re-establish bromine in his tub, no where does he say he has added bromide salts, he states chlorine.

Onzen does not use pure sodium chloride. They use a "Sea Salt" blend from the Dead Sea. Sea Salt, especially salt from the Dead Sea, contains bromide. I think that the water probably contains at least a few ppm of bromide, which will become bromine when oxidized by ozone, MPS or chlorine. Any bromine created will affect the FC reading. I recommended that the poster contact the salt maker to inquire about the bromide content of the salt.

You are getting a bit confusing to me, never mind most homeowners because you contadict yourself and add in equations he does not state he has.

You are the one confusing the situation by talking about the Genesis salt system, which is not what the poster has. They have the Onzen. You keep going on about what Genesis recommends, which is irrelevant.

I was just suggesting he can the maker of the system before he adds a bunch of stuff that could possibly damage his system.

I agree that the poster should contact the manufacturer to ask about any questions they have. The only thing that I recommended was cyanuric acid. Cyanuric acid won't hurt the salt system. Most salt system manufacturers recommend extra high levels of cyanuric acid. I never said that cyanuric acid should be used with a Genesis system. You are the one who keeps confusing the situation by talking about the Genesis system. The poster does not have a Genesis machine.

As far as sprite, i asked them 2 times..."Sprite...are you sure?" and they were quite clear thats what they want you to do to reduce bromine levels.

I don't care what they say. I still think that it's a bad idea. That's my opinion. Just because someone from the manufacturer says something, that doesn't make it right.

I am tired of everytime i write something, what little I have a chance too, you try to contridict what i say, correct me if i am wrong, fine, but dont blast everything I say, specially if you have had no contact with the manufactures of this equipment.

You are the one who first posted to contradict the advice of others.

You could very easily ruin your salt system by using some of the chemicals that are suggested.

You are the one who began the debate. I just responded by defending my position. I never "blasted" you or anything you said. I have not been rude to you at all. I have just been discussing the facts and trying to provide as much information as possible.

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Original poster here!!!!!-I did a test yesterday,because I'm dumping the month old water in the new tub,but I wanted to see if mps would send free chlorine levels through the roof again in this dead sea salt onzen tub and sure enough there at shocking levels,arctic corporate and dealer believe there is no bromine in the sae salt blend from artic pure but all they did was read the label that says nothing anyways.

The reason I was inquiring about mps(refresh) vs stabilized chlorinating granules(boost) was to reduce fc levels during water recovery from parties so I can use it quicker,but it seems some how both products cause high fc levels or some how contaminating true readings-I'm just a little confused and still don't have my regent test kit yet only going by test strips and "digital true read meter" from aquchek

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On refill, you could use pure sodium chloride instead of the Sea Salt blend. This should eliminate the bromide that is probably in the Sea Salt. However, here is what the manual says:

NOTE:* Only use Arctic Pure brand salt blend; use of other types of salt will damage components and will void the spa warranty.

I think that this is nonsense. Pure sodium chloride should work just fine. If it were my spa, I would use regular pure sodium chloride. You will have to decide what you want to use, and if it's worth risking the warranty.

You could contact the salt manufacturer to inquire about the bromide content of the salt. You could contact the Onzen manufacturer to inquire about using pure sodium chloride.

Another issue that could help explain the increase in FC reading after using the MPS is that your Onzen is making chlorine. Without using the MPS, some of the chlorine will be used up oxidizing contaminants. However, when you use MPS, the MPS will oxidize contaminants and the chlorine produced by the salt system won't get used up. This could account for part of the higher FC reading after using MPS.

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I am tired of everytime i write something, what little I have a chance too, you try to contridict what i say, correct me if i am wrong, fine, but dont blast everything I say, specially if you have had no contact with the manufactures of this equipment. I do this stuff everyday, 10-12 hours a day, love my work and customers are of the most importance to me, first...their safty, then equipment saftey, at the least cost to them.

HHT, I quite agree with you on this! Practical experience and familiarity with the equipment involved is often MUCH more important that theoretical chemistry that could work but might be disastrous in the long run.

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As chem geek said, MPS (refresh) will give a false high chlorine level on test strips, it is not adding chlorine to the system. boost does.

I never said that MPS added chlorine to the system. I said that the Onzen was adding chlorine to the spa. The Onzen does not have to be in Boost mode to add chlorine. I agree that MPS can give a false high FC reading on test strips. However, I think that there is more to it than that. I have given the details and the reasons.

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HHT, I quite agree with you on this! Practical experience and familiarity with the equipment involved is often MUCH more important that theoretical chemistry that could work but might be disastrous in the long run.

What about my posts is "theoretical"? Is there anything that you disagree with? What do you think might be disastrous? If you want to debate a particular bit of advice, then you need to be specific. What is your advice to the poster?

I agree that practical experience and familiarity are important. However, so is understanding the science behind what you're dealing with. Without understanding the science, then you're just guessing and hoping that you get it right. There are plenty of people with practical experience who don't have a clue about what they are doing.

BTW, I have plenty of practical experience. I work with pools and spas every day. I also put a lot of time and effort into learning the real science.

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