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Salt Water System


Tubber McGee

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If you were buying a new tub (as I assume most people here already own a tub), WOULD YOU PAY AN ADDITIONAL $1000 for a SALT WATER SYSTEM or HOT SPRINGS ACE SYSTEM - assuming you know about these systems and could afford it!

YES or NO

If it's similar to Arctic Spa's Onzen system - which breaks down sea salt into chlorine, YES. As long as it works. With mine - nine months now - no problems.

I have a dealer who taught me a lot about water chemistry -- it's easier to maintain.

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Dealer cost on the Arctic salt (chlorine generator) system is $500, as with most accessories, it is half the cost they want to get out of the customer, so bargain for it, last I heard Arctic was having issues properly controlling output with them.

Hot Springs dealers cannot sell to another dealer's territory, nor do they like to see people cash and carry, IMHO, Hot Springs used to be a great spa, but since MASCO bought them out, they are relying on a name and reputation while grossly marking up a low end product. In order to increase bottom end, Masco reduced factory staff by 50% and bus the workers up from Mexico every day.

The shells are now acrylic backed by a tiny layer of sprayed on plastic, then supported by foam, shell cracking and shell failure have become common, some of the spas were showing up at our showroom broken just in transit. The jets and plumbing fittings are now purchased offshore from Rising Dragon, a Chinese manufacturer who also supplies Arctic. (And is half owned by a brother of one of the Arctic owners)

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Dealer cost on the Arctic salt (chlorine generator) system is $500, as with most accessories, it is half the cost they want to get out of the customer, so bargain for it, last I heard Arctic was having issues properly controlling output with them.

Hot Springs dealers cannot sell to another dealer's territory, nor do they like to see people cash and carry, IMHO, Hot Springs used to be a great spa, but since MASCO bought them out, they are relying on a name and reputation while grossly marking up a low end product. In order to increase bottom end, Masco reduced factory staff by 50% and bus the workers up from Mexico every day.

The shells are now acrylic backed by a tiny layer of sprayed on plastic, then supported by foam, shell cracking and shell failure have become common, some of the spas were showing up at our showroom broken just in transit. The jets and plumbing fittings are now purchased offshore from Rising Dragon, a Chinese manufacturer who also supplies Arctic. (And is half owned by a brother of one of the Arctic owners)

Wow, you seem to have an axe to grind and while everyone is entitled to their opinion there are more than a few falsehoods in your post. We always talk about how spa sales people should not bash the competition and should learn to sell on their own merits and this is an example of this though the sad part is the blatant inaccuracies in the above post:

1) Hot Springs used to be a great spa, but since MASCO bought them out, they are relying on a name and reputation

Watkins has been owned by Masco for about 25 years, you make it wound like it was some kind of recent transaction. Are you saying they went down hill in the 80s? Thats news to all the people who've bought and been happy the last quarter century!! If they were that bad since the ownership change I think people would have caught on by now lol.

2) In order to increase bottom end, Masco reduced factory staff by 50%

Like almost every US manufacturer Watkins did lay off the last couple years when the economy suffered. The layoffs were nowhere NEAR 50% and were merely a reflection of the drop in sales. Thats to be expected from most any company the past couple years and as sales have gotten better some have even been called back. What's wrong with that?

3) and bus the workers up from Mexico every day.

Watkins has multiple commuter vans (not buses) which pick up and drop off people from all areas of San Diego County (Oceanside, Temecula, Chula Vista, El Cajon, etc.). It is a socially responsible and creative thing that helps workers keep travel costs down and helps the company be able to attract workers within the whole county rather than those just within a short commute (commuting in SoCal is not always easy). NONE of those buses go into Mexico despite your attempt to make it seem like some sort of back alley job shop full of illegals.

4) The shells are now acrylic backed by a tiny layer of sprayed on plastic, then supported by foam, shell cracking and shell failure have become common, some of the spas were showing up at our showroom broken just in transit.

Wow, that is ridiculous. First of all, the shell is formed using a co-laminated sheet; there is no "sprayed on" plastic. "Sprayed on plastic"? You really said that and you're supposed to be a "Spa Guru" lol? I wouldn't even expect an ex-used car salesmen who's become a new spa salesman to utter such an ignorant statement showing an utter lack of technical knowledge. Furthermore, shell cracking is not common, if it were there would be a big problem because the warranty covers such things and Watkins couldn't stay in business with such a big problem if it were common. Third, while Watkins ships thousands of spas and shipping damage certainly can occur it is a VERY small % (such things are tracked and your portrayal is anything but accurate).

5) The jets and plumbing fittings are now purchased offshore from Rising Dragon, a Chinese manufacturer who also supplies Arctic.

I probably should just ignore this wholly inaccurate statement because it shows that you are just throwing darts and have no idea what you're talking about but to set the record straight, NONE of the jets come from Rising Dragon (in reality they are made in SoCal) and I don't think any of the plumbing parts come from them either. Sorry to burst your bubble on that one and before you even try, they're also not made in Latin American sweat shops next to Kathie Lee Gifford's clothing line lol.

If you don't like Watkins for whatever reason (competition, got jettisoned by them… whatever) that's your right but try to be at least marginally accurate in your statements.

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Hot Springs did not have the right spa for me but lack of quality was not the reason - they are a deservedly well respected manufacturer.

Although he posts with great cetainty and finality some of his black / white opinionated posts lead me to thing that perhaps Spa Guru should change the last part of his handle to something other than Guru.

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My "Innacurate information" came from the man giving the factory tour two years ago to the sales crews, the shell breakage was observed personally when working for a Hot Springs dealer for a year, (bet ya know the part number for the Grandee step cracking problen eh?) I have no axe to grind one way or another, I have an opinion based on personal experience, it isn't like I was posting the memos that Hot Springs sent to us when the Limelight factory was moved completely TO Mexico.

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My "Innacurate information" came from the man giving the factory tour two years ago to the sales crews, the shell breakage was observed personally when working for a Hot Springs dealer for a year, (bet ya know the part number for the Grandee step cracking problen eh?) I have no axe to grind one way or another, I have an opinion based on personal experience, it isn't like I was posting the memos that Hot Springs sent to us when the Limelight factory was moved completely TO Mexico.

Well the factory tour guide must have had some bad info lol. OK, so you've seen a cracked shell, that doesn't mean there is some rampant problem because you've seen a cracked shell. My BIL had a Honda with a bad transmission at 75,00 miles. Time to shut down the Honda factory for bad transmissions I guess.

So you got a memo saying the "Limelight factory" was moving? Limelight spas were built in the Mexico factory from day 1, never made in the Vista factory with the Hot Spring line so there was no memo but keep the misinformation coming if it suits your story.

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Well, Masco does have the money to hire you to shill for them don't they? :rolleyes:

C'mon now, is there, or is there not a complete kit sold by Hot Springs specifically for repairing cracked Grandee steps?

You know, the one that comes with the two part syrige that premixes the sealing agents.

Don't tell me there isn't one.

http://spapartsnet.com/Forums/Spa-Repair/Plumbing/Leak-in-1995-Hot-Spring-Prodigy_4138.html

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Well, Masco does have the money to hire you to shill for them don't they? :rolleyes:

C'mon now, is there, or is there not a complete kit sold by Hot Springs specifically for repairing cracked Grandee steps?

You know, the one that comes with the two part syrige that premixes the sealing agents.

Don't tell me there isn't one.

http://spapartsnet.com/Forums/Spa-Repair/Plumbing/Leak-in-1995-Hot-Spring-Prodigy_4138.html

The fact that Watkins has a repair kit for shells does not mean there is a shell issue. Every company has occasional spas fail for cracks or blisters, for most (i.e. Watkins) its a small %. Go ahead and call D1, Marquis... and ask if they have shell repair kits. As far as that link goes to the person with the 15 year old spa that has a crack, please don't try to make it sound like that happens every day because these pages would be littered with such stories and you wouldn't have to search out someone with a 15 year old spa to give an example.

Your arguments so far have been lacking facts. Opinions are yours to hold but facts are disputable when they are in fact in error. I'm not sure where your anger and resentment comes from but so far you've thrown out so many incorrect statements that is seems like you don't plan on letting facts get in the way of a good old fashioned smear campaign.

I'm not here to convince you which brand you should like but chill out and stick to the positives of whatever brand you prefer and stick with factual statements.

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  • 2 weeks later...

FWIW, I got the chance to watch my dealer install the ACE system yesterday afternoon during my Grandee install. It was extremely easy to put in, and I did hang onto the ozonator unit. Since the swap out was very simple, if the ACE ever fails and I don't want to replace it, I can always switch over to traditional dichlor/chlorine. I asked if HotSpring had a policy regarding what to do with the ozonator, and the answer is "no." It's up to the dealers. He said they had always given the buyer the choice to keep it, since technically it's part of the sales price, but if the buyer doesn't want it, the dealer stocks and resells it. Some dealers may not be giving buyers the option though, so if any of you end up buying an ACE equipped tub, definitely ask the installer to give you the ozonator!

So far, everything appears to be working perfectly. After PH is adjusted and the Vanishing Act product has been left in long enough to lower the calcium to appropriate levels, you need to wait until the water temperature rises to add the salt (helps it dissolve)into the filter area. They recommend waiting until the temp is at least 100F. I measured out 6 cups (recommended amount based on size) for my Grandee and added it slowly with the jets on full (temp at 102F). Waited about 10 more minutes, ran a manual salt test on the control panel, and salt level was already measuring in the normal range. Once in the normal salt range, the service icon stops flashing, and a message displays that everything is functioning normally. Dichlor can be optionally used with ACE to establish a reserve (5ppm), but it isn't necessary. Anything more will impact your usage settings. Otherwise, take normal water measurements twice a week during the first 2 weeks, and once you have stabilized, test it monthly. So far, so good, but time will be the real test...

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Hey Rider,

I am a little over a week into owning the ACE system. Question: do you know when we need to start adding addtl salt. I was told that you may not need to add salt until you change the water. I was also told that after about 6 weeks you may need to add! If we do, how much! Dont think the control panel will tell us!

Also, keep an eye on your tempature reading - many of the new HS tubs are not reading correctly. Mine has actually been off about 3 degrees. Last night it was too hot for the kids! I called Watkins and they are sending a fix (some part for the board) to my dealer!

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Tub size and usage will certainly have some influence on salt comnsumption, as will whether you choose to add any dichlor, since the CYA will also require more chlorine production. My tech said that I shouldn't need to add salt for at least 2-3 months in my Grandee, and it could be longer depending on usage. You can run a manual test of salt level at any time in the water care menu, so as long as the water is more than 100F, add a cup at a time in the filter area with the jets running and wait at least 10 minutes before retesting. If the water is cooler, it will likely take longer to register. Mine registered perfectly on my fresh fill though after the 10 mins. Ideally, you want the salt reading right in the middle of the green (acceptable) range for your tub, which will vary based on the size setting you input during setup. On a smaller tub, you might want to add slightly less than a cup at a time when the salt level dips into the low range, since it will have a bigger impact. Should be pretty easy. FWIW, my tech mentioned that he suspected the single container of salt will likely last about 12 months.

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Tubber,

The LCD indicator for the salt level in the tub corresponds to specific parts per million of salt in the water. (I just found out recently) When the black bar (which tells you where the salt level is) fall directly in the middle of the green you are at 1000 ppm of salt. If your black bar was right at the point where yellow meets green (yellow meaning low salt) you are right at 800 ppm of salt in the water or the lowest possible content for the cell to work. If your black bar was right at the point of where green meet red (the highest possible level of salt for the Ace cell to work, you are right at 1200 ppm of salt in the water.

When you add, say a cup of salt to the water that will raise the ppm of salt in the water by a specific amount based on the gallons of the hot tub. So a cup of salt added to a Jetsetter (225 gallons) would raise the ppm of salt in the water by a much greater amount (more concentrated due to a smaller volume of water) than if you add a cup of salt to a Grandee (500 gallon.)

I have a sheet with the specific ppm that a cup of salt adds for each tub, but I seem to have misplaced it for the moment. I will look for it and let you know what the exact figure is for a grandee.

The salt level should stay pretty consistent. Really the way you lose salt is by the splash out of water and the water you carry with you when you get out of the tub. So when you top off your tub with more water, your ppm of salt would be lower. (more diluted) Otherwise the way I have had it explained to me is that the way Ace works is that salt is coverted to chlorine and then eventually get converted back to salt again. Kind of recycling. Hence you are not really using up the salt in the sense you would think.

We have had good feedback from our customers so far on the Ace system. It seems to work as designed. Hope this helps.

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Oh, I found the specific ppm measurments of adding a cup of salt. I listed them all in case somebody has another model of Hot Spring with Ace.

Vista, Grandee , or Envoy 1 cup salt added increases salt level by approx 170 ppm.

Aria 1 cup salt added increases salt level by approx 210 ppm.

Vanguard 1 cup salt added increases salt level by approx 190 ppm.

Sovereign 1 cup salt added increases salt level by approx 220 ppm.

Prodigy 1 cup salt added increases salt level by approx 235 ppm.

Jetsetter 1 cup salt added increases salt level by approx 360 ppm.

That should help. If you were to add too much salt to the water all you would have to do is do a partial drain and fill up with clean water.

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Tubber,

The LCD indicator for the salt level in the tub corresponds to specific parts per million of salt in the water. (I just found out recently) When the black bar (which tells you where the salt level is) fall directly in the middle of the green you are at 1000 ppm of salt. If your black bar was right at the point where yellow meets green (yellow meaning low salt) you are right at 800 ppm of salt in the water or the lowest possible content for the cell to work. If your black bar was right at the point of where green meet red (the highest possible level of salt for the Ace cell to work, you are right at 1200 ppm of salt in the water.

When you add, say a cup of salt to the water that will raise the ppm of salt in the water by a specific amount based on the gallons of the hot tub. So a cup of salt added to a Jetsetter (225 gallons) would raise the ppm of salt in the water by a much greater amount (more concentrated due to a smaller volume of water) than if you add a cup of salt to a Grandee (500 gallon.)

I have a sheet with the specific ppm that a cup of salt adds for each tub, but I seem to have misplaced it for the moment. I will look for it and let you know what the exact figure is for a grandee.

The salt level should stay pretty consistent. Really the way you lose salt is by the splash out of water and the water you carry with you when you get out of the tub. So when you top off your tub with more water, your ppm of salt would be lower. (more diluted) Otherwise the way I have had it explained to me is that the way Ace works is that salt is coverted to chlorine and then eventually get converted back to salt again. Kind of recycling. Hence you are not really using up the salt in the sense you would think.

We have had good feedback from our customers so far on the Ace system. It seems to work as designed. Hope this helps.

tylemandan, this is piece of the puzzle I was missing! I have the reference card showing the ppm per cup of salt, but did not see what the specific values/parameters were on the topside display as a reference check, since there are just colors and no numbers. I knew it varied by which tub size you selected, but now it will be easier to know what the impact will be by adding a cup or more of salt. Thanks!

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Hey Rider,

I am a little over a week into owning the ACE system. Question: do you know when we need to start adding addtl salt. I was told that you may not need to add salt until you change the water. I was also told that after about 6 weeks you may need to add! If we do, how much! Dont think the control panel will tell us!

Also, keep an eye on your tempature reading - many of the new HS tubs are not reading correctly. Mine has actually been off about 3 degrees. Last night it was too hot for the kids! I called Watkins and they are sending a fix (some part for the board) to my dealer!

Mine may be off as well. It feels like the circ. pump continues to send hot water, even after it's reached the set temp. It obviously holds a bit more heat when the covers down versus up as well, but mine seems to be about 2 degrees off. I'm going to keep an eye on it, and will likely call Watkins as well.

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wow,

i didn't pay attention to this thread earlier, i decided to read this , boy it was getting good between spa guru and Hot Spring Ace. I was hoping in wasn't going to end, from the stuff being said and the rebuttals , i found it interesting on the , some of the info being thrown out there. that was not correct ....but it is good to see that people have there own opinions, but if they are not correct on the facts it makes it tough to act on....I do believe that any comments made by anyone should knoe there facts..onside from there personal opinions.......On the side note it is nioce to see that Tylerman was able to get the right info on the usage to this....

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  • 2 weeks later...

I spoke with a Senior Tech at Watkins yesterday. He said that they recommend that the Ozonator be disconnected if using the ACE system. It is perfectly fine to leave it in the Tub, but disconnect the wires.

UPDATE - 11/2/10

My Vanguard was delivered last Friday. So far we love it. The ACE system is being installed tomorrow. I spoke to a service representative at Watkins this morning and she informed me that they recently had a meeting and are now advising that the Ozonator can remain connected to the tub and operational with the ACE system. I am going to ask the tech to leave the ozonator functioning with the ACE system. If problems develop (which I dont anticipate), I can always disconnect the ozonator. Hope this information helps.

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I spoke with a Senior Tech at Watkins yesterday. He said that they recommend that the Ozonator be disconnected if using the ACE system. It is perfectly fine to leave it in the Tub, but disconnect the wires.

UPDATE - 11/2/10

My Vanguard was delivered last Friday. So far we love it. The ACE system is being installed tomorrow. I spoke to a service representative at Watkins this morning and she informed me that they recently had a meeting and are now advising that the Ozonator can remain connected to the tub and operational with the ACE system. I am going to ask the tech to leave the ozonator functioning with the ACE system. If problems develop (which I dont anticipate), I can always disconnect the ozonator. Hope this information helps.

Interesting development. I would have thought that they might have figured this out during that extensive 3 year R&D / Quality Control period. They had indicated that the ozonator should not be used with the ACE system - wonder what changed. Have they decided whether or not it is beneficial to use the ozonator? Does it simply make no difference if you use the ozonator? Should they re-install the ozonators that they just pulled out of the tubs that came with the ACE system?

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Rushing a "feature" to market and using your customers for lab rats (anyone still trying to use the Watkins auto-feed Baqua system LOL) is not the mark of a responsible and seasoned company, the changes going on at Hot Springs apparently call for something as a sales tool to combat the 400 lb "Arctic Gorilla" salt system, "me too" is cheaper than innovation.

They can't even decide if it works with ozone or not, that is just laughable.

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Rushing a "feature" to market and using your customers for lab rats (anyone still trying to use the Watkins auto-feed Baqua system LOL) is not the mark of a responsible and seasoned company, the changes going on at Hot Springs apparently call for something as a sales tool to combat the 400 lb "Arctic Gorilla" salt system, "me too" is cheaper than innovation.

They can't even decide if it works with ozone or not, that is just laughable.

You are taking it out of context. To my knowledge, Watkins did not say that the salt system will not work with the ozonator, their previous position was that the ozonator was not necessary with the ACE System. Now that the ACE system has been in the field for over a year, Watkins is now able to utilize actual experience and has determined that there is perhaps an added benefit to leaving the ozonator functioning with the ACE system.

The only potential downside I see with running both systems, as another poster previously indicated, is that the ozone could oxidize chlorine to chlorate which increases chlorine demand, however, this should only bee seen in tubs that don't get much use.

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Rushing a "feature" to market and using your customers for lab rats (anyone still trying to use the Watkins auto-feed Baqua system LOL) is not the mark of a responsible and seasoned company, the changes going on at Hot Springs apparently call for something as a sales tool to combat the 400 lb "Arctic Gorilla" salt system, "me too" is cheaper than innovation.

They can't even decide if it works with ozone or not, that is just laughable.

From your posts its obvious you are a Marquis guy and not a Hot Spring fan and everyone is entitled to their opinions/biases/likes but there actually hasn't been much on these sites that says the Ace product was rushed to market IMO. We did see a lot of issues with the Arctic system here when it first came out and you never want to get in the situation where you are debugging these things after they've been released to the public (they may have gotten that straightened out by now so I'm not knocking it in its current state) so I think a lot of people have been on the sideline waiting to see how these products work out.

A lot of us understand the skepticism with hot tub salt systems due to past history but if debate over whether to use an ozonator or not with the system is the biggest concern we see I don't see much to worry about. It should come down to whether the extra oxidizing of the ozonator is needed/beneficial and probably isn't a big deal either way. I would think with moderate bather loads the ozonator wouldn't matter much but could be beneficial if use is fairly high but since it comes standard with the spas owners are probably asking why its being disconnected so they're probably just telling them to go ahead and use it. If I were going in by myself or just my wife it probably wouldn't matter but if my kids were still going in the spa like they used to I'd leave it in place.

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I also called called Watkins and they informed that YES - it is fine to keep the ozonator in place! If you use alot (kids and such) it would be benefical to keep the ozonater in place and it would help! With minimal use its not that big of a deal!

I just want the bubbles:)

I am having mine hooked back up when they service my tub this weekend!

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