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Algae


JFS

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Have been having reoccuring yellow algae prob for a number of months now.Brush it off, back in a couple of days, same areas.Drained half pool four mo ago becuse of high phosphates and high calcium,.Treated pool with Phosphate remover and other chems to bring to acceptable level, also started using poly 60 weekly and accord to directions.Algae prob slill exist.

17K gunnite/plaster-solar 85 degrees plus-25yrs old-new plaster 7 yrs ago-shock with bleach- Taylor 2006 test kit

TA 100

CH 410

FC 4 (normally 5-6)

CC 0

CYA 90

Any suggestions? Thanks-Joe

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  • 3 weeks later...

My suggestion is that with a CYA value at 90 the FC level is consistently low. Daily FC maintenance values would be between 6 and 10, with algae kill values higher still.

Have you looked into yellow treat algicide made by united chemical. It is sodium bromide, which the high CYA won't effect? You will still have to keep a high FC for ongoing sanitation though or drain 2/3 of your pool!

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If any sort of sodium bromide product is used, then the pool will be turned into a bromine pool. If you use too much of such a product, then the only way to turn the pool back into a chlorine pool is through drain/refill. Since the CYA is high anyway and the only way to lower that is through dilution, it's probably best to do another partial drain/refill to lower the CYA level now.

So yes, sodium bromide is an alternative, but one with consequences. Another alternative to get around the high CYA is to use an ammonium sulfate product which will create monochloramine to kill the algae. At least in this case, one can get rid of the monochloramine through shocking when you're done. With the high CYA, you'll need to maintain at least 7 ppm FC after the algae is killed.

It is true that to shock the pool to get rid of yellow/mustard algae would require rather ridiculously high levels of chlorine -- at 60% of the CYA level that would be 54 ppm FC. A normal shock level of around 36 ppm FC could be done, but might not be effective for this heartier algae. This is why these other alternatives that work around high CYA levels are being proposed, but ultimately you're going to need to lower your CYA level if you want to more easily manage your pool.

Regardless of the approach you take, you want to get behind light niches and under removable ladders because yellow/mustard algae likes shade and will hide out in those low circulation spots. You also need to put in any poles, toys and other equipment into your pool to kill off the algae there as well to ensure you don't re-introduce it (wash your swimsuits in at least warm soapy water as well).

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  • 1 month later...

If the Cyanuric Acid (CYA aka stabilizer or conditioner) level in your pool is high (above 80 ppm), then you will eventually need to lower it anyway so a partial drain/refill might be the thing to do assuming the algae has already turned your pool into a swamp and isn't getting any worse. With a lower CYA level, it will take far less chlorine to kill of the remaining algae. Read Defeating Algae for more info. You'll also need a good drop-based test kit so that you can test for high Free Chlorine (FC) levels needed to shock your pool to kill the algae.

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Sure, if you don't care about severe metal staining you could dump an overdose of a copper-based algaecide and that will stop the algae growth, though won't do anything to clear the existing algae from the pool. It will also stain plaster surfaces. And the copper won't go away without a drain/refill.

If you have a high CYA level and want to work around that without a partial drain/refill of the water, then there are two chemical alternatives you can use, but they each have side effects. One already discussed in this thread is sodium bromide. This turns your pool into a bromine pool since any chlorine or non-chlorine shock you add will convert the bromide to bromine. The bromine can then kill the algae and is not affected by the CYA level. If you use too much of this product, however, your pool will remain a bromine pool for longer.

The other alternative is to use an ammonium chloride product since any chlorine added to the pool will combine with the ammonia to produce monochloramine which can kill algae. You have to dose the product and the chlorine amounts carefully, however (i.e. you must follow the instructions carefully). At least in this case you can get rid of the monochloramine by using more chlorine so this has less side effects.

However, the above solutions don't address the source problem which is most likely to be a high CYA level so you will continue to get algae in the future unless you either 1) keep the Free Chlorine (FC) level higher relative to the CYA level or 2) use a supplemental algaecide regularly at extra cost. This is why doing a partial drain/refill if the CYA is too high is really the best long-term solution.

It is VERY easy to maintain a pool preventing algae growth if you simply keep the proper amount of FC relative to the CYA level. There are tens of thousands of pool owners who do this on multiple pool forums. However, right now, you've got to clear the algae you've already got in your pool and that takes a lot of oxidizer no matter how you look at it -- unless you are able to vacuum or filter it out (but you need to kill it first).

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Sure, if you don't care about severe metal staining you could dump an overdose of a copper-based algaecide and that will stop the algae growth, though won't do anything to clear the existing algae from the pool. It will also stain plaster surfaces. And the copper won't go away without a drain/refill.

If you have a high CYA level and want to work around that without a partial drain/refill of the water, then there are two chemical alternatives you can use, but they each have side effects. One already discussed in this thread is sodium bromide. This turns your pool into a bromine pool since any chlorine or non-chlorine shock you add will convert the bromide to bromine. The bromine can then kill the algae and is not affected by the CYA level. If you use too much of this product, however, your pool will remain a bromine pool for longer.

The other alternative is to use an ammonium chloride product since any chlorine added to the pool will combine with the ammonia to produce monochloramine which can kill algae. You have to dose the product and the chlorine amounts carefully, however (i.e. you must follow the instructions carefully). At least in this case you can get rid of the monochloramine by using more chlorine so this has less side effects.

However, the above solutions don't address the source problem which is most likely to be a high CYA level so you will continue to get algae in the future unless you either 1) keep the Free Chlorine (FC) level higher relative to the CYA level or 2) use a supplemental algaecide regularly at extra cost. This is why doing a partial drain/refill if the CYA is too high is really the best long-term solution.

It is VERY easy to maintain a pool preventing algae growth if you simply keep the proper amount of FC relative to the CYA level. There are tens of thousands of pool owners who do this on multiple pool forums. However, right now, you've got to clear the algae you've already got in your pool and that takes a lot of oxidizer no matter how you look at it -- unless you are able to vacuum or filter it out (but you need to kill it first).

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Thanks, will do. This advice is great. I was asking some friends (who own crystal clear pool themselves), if they could help me turn my pool into theirs. Out of my several friends that have pools I probably asked a few of them how they maintain their pool. Most of them told me that they spend about 20 minutes a day maintaining it. But two of my friends both said that their secret was some kind or capsule they put into their pool. They mentioned this floating thing that lets them use less chlorine and deals with the pH levels etc.????? how can this be possible?

Thanks again for all your support and quick responses,

WPW

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Read the Pool School to learn how to properly maintain your pool easily. It's not even 20 minutes per day. Once you get to know your pool, you just add chlorine daily and maybe test the chlorine level though if it's very stable you might check it every other day or so. In my own pool with a mostly opaque pool cover, the chlorine usage is low enough and stable enough that I can test for and add chlorine twice a week. Others use automated dosing systems such as The Liquidator or have saltwater chlorine generator pools. Testing is still needed, but not as frequently in those situations (at least once a week, however).

The floating things are of three types. One is a mineral sanitizer, usually copper ions, that is used to prevent algae growth, but at the risk of staining pool surfaces. Another is a saltwater chlorine generator, albeit small so doesn't generate very much chlorine (and it uses solar cells for power). The third holds Trichlor tablets/pucks but in addition to adding chlorine this increases the CYA level in the water over time which is probably what happened in your situation (i.e. use of only stabilized chlorine products -- Trichlor and/or Dichlor). These really aren't necessary unless you find it too burdensome to simply add some cups of chlorinating liquid or bleach to your pool every day or two. If that's a hassle for you, then you could look at the automated dosing systems I mentioned.

If you want insurance against algae growth in case you miss a dose or two of adding chlorine, you could have 50 ppm Borates in the pool or you could use a weekly algaecide such as PolyQuat 60. These are not necessary, but are insurance. Pool stores like to promote phosphate removers for a similar purpose and though these can take the edge off of algae growth (if one doesn't have too many organic phosphates in their pool), they are expensive initially if you have high phosphate levels. Again, they are not necessary because sufficient FC relative to CYA will prevent algae growth even with high phosphate levels -- I've had 3000+ ppb phosphates in my pool and prevented algae growth using chlorine alone. My 16,000 gallon pool is shown here and here.

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I mentioned the saltwater chlorine generator and that doesn't require anything to be added to it. It looks like this and this. Just note that they don't produce very much chlorine unless the salt level in your pool is higher and even then it's really only suited for smaller pools, in spite of what the manufacturer claims. Their peak output in a saltwater pool with direct noontime sun is 1 ppm FC in 1 gallon in 1 second. That's 0.36 ppm FC per hour in 10,000 gallons. This wouldn't be bad if this were sustained, but it's not like that all day and requires higher salt levels (they recommend 3000-4500 ppm). At lower salt levels of non-salt pools, such as 500-1000 ppm salt, the output would be far less though they do have a bottom bowl assembly you can fill with salt (up to 7 pounds that lasts for about 1 week) that will boost the output, but then you'd need to refill that periodically (and it will increase the salt level in your pool at a rate up to around 85 ppm per week).

Note that there is also a (copper) ion output control so there is a copper rod in the unit that would need periodic replacement if you were to use it (it's in a removable drawer). Fortunately, you can turn this down (hopefully off or can remove it) otherwise you could get too much copper into your pool and result in staining.

The main risk here is that if you live in a place that gets cloudy days, then the chlorine output will drop but the chlorine demand may be higher than the output of the unit so the chlorine level could get too low allowing algae to grow. Fortunately, the lack of sunlight producing chlorine also reduces the loss of chlorine from sunlight, but it's still a risk. Instead of using the copper ions, if you put in 50 ppm Borates into the pool then that can be at least partial insurance against algae with no risk of copper ion staining. Note that they recommend a CYA level of 80-100 ppm because they want to minimize chlorine loss from sunlight, but at this level of CYA you'll need to maintain a Free Chlorine (FC) level of around 4-5 ppm if you want to make sure you don't get algae growth. If you want a lower FC level than that, then you'll need one or more of the supplemental algaecide alternatives. The unit uses copper ions to try and control algae since the typical FC level alone (they recommend 1-3 ppm) won't be able to do that in most pools using this unit. This is also why they recommend lowering phosphate levels to below 300 ppm. They are trying desperately to control algae through a variety of means because their chlorine output is so low.

At a cost of around $400, the unit is not cheap. You can get a proper inline saltwater chlorine generator system for under $1000 that will be able to output a lot more chlorine even when the sun isn't shining and will let you prevent algae growth without the need for supplemental systems.

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Hey I just got back from my friends BBQ and pool party. I asked him what his floating capsule was called and he said that he forgot but he found it online, I'm pretty sure he mentioned greenerpool.com ...he was teling me how it works and stuff but i couldn't remember everything. His pool is always crystal clean so it has to work. Let me know what you think of it, could it work for my pool after i get my algae problem fixed?

Thanks for everything,

WPW

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The GreenerPool website refers to the main company website which is HydroPlan, LLC. I can't find any EPA or PAN database registration for this product and suspect it is just another metal ionizer product (they refer to "natural physical elements"), probably releasing copper ions to help prevent algae growth, but at the risk of metal staining if the level gets too high (or the pH gets too high). They refer to "photonics" on their website, but they have the same unit plumbed in and not exposed to sunlight and there is no power source so sounds like the photonics part is a bunch of bunk. The floating version costs $165. I mentioned the copper route before -- if you really wanted to go that way, you can buy copper sulfate products for for far less and then have your copper ion level measured and maintained carefully along with the pH to prevent staining. As I mentioned before, you can get most of the algae prevention benefit without staining by using 50 ppm Borates or a weekly algicide such as PolyQuat 60, though chlorine alone will prevent algae growth if you maintain the proper Free Chlorine (FC) level relative to the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level.

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Pool owners are always looking for the "magic in a bottle" to keep their pool clean and clear but it does not exist. If you want clean, clear, SANITIZED, and algae free pool water you need:

A GOOD test kit (not strips)

a basic understanding of proper pool water parameters (not really that hard)

5 minutes a day for pool water maintenance (yes, it really only takes about 5 minutes a day!)

However, it often means giving up the use of trichlor tabs for an unstabilized chlorine source if you live in an area with more than a three month swim season or you don't winterize your pool. THIS is how you ensure that your pool does not turn green or get mustard algae! (These problems usually occur when the CYA level climbs too high. If you have a cartridge filter the CYA could be too high in as little as 2 months of use!)

Mineral sanitizes, magic pills, copper algaecides, etc. can give you the APPEARANCE of clear water but it does not mean it is safe water or water that will not stain the pool or turn hair green. (Copper causes green hair. Period.)

If someone does not want to to the basic maintenance they should not own a pool, IMHO. As an analogy, If you own a car you cannot just drive it without doing anything to it. You need to put in gas and change the oil and put air in the tires since the car does not take care of itself.

IF your pool is green then you need to add chlorine to shock level AND KEEP ADDING CHLORINE TO KEEP IT THERE to kill the algae. If you CYA is too high do a partial drain and refill to get it in range FIRST!

ANYTHING ELSE IS JUST A BAND AID AND THE PROBLEM WILL RETURN AGAIN AND AGAIN UNTIL YOU DO THIS!

So, to quote Nike, Just do it!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here is a very good resource on combating the problem of yellow mustard algae http://www.ehow.com/how_4832376_rid-mustard-algae-swimming-pools.html

That source recommends adding copper, which can cause serious stains. I recommend that copper not be used.

Have you had trouble with copper algaecide staining? I used it in my pool to deal with swampy green algae when I first got it (after nothing else worked) and didn't have any issues with staining. Curious to hear about your experiences...

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Here is a very good resource on combating the problem of yellow mustard algae http://www.ehow.com/...ming-pools.html

That source recommends adding copper, which can cause serious stains. I recommend that copper not be used.

Have you had trouble with copper algaecide staining? I used it in my pool to deal with swampy green algae when I first got it (after nothing else worked) and didn't have any issues with staining. Curious to hear about your experiences...

I have had enough experience with enough pools (more than I could possibly count) to tell you that copper stains. Period. It might not do it with just one application to any noticable degree but with continued use it will stain pools, hair, and nails.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here is a very good resource on combating the problem of yellow mustard algae http://www.ehow.com/...ming-pools.html

That source recommends adding copper, which can cause serious stains. I recommend that copper not be used.

Have you had trouble with copper algaecide staining? I used it in my pool to deal with swampy green algae when I first got it (after nothing else worked) and didn't have any issues with staining. Curious to hear about your experiences...

I have had enough experience with enough pools (more than I could possibly count) to tell you that copper stains. Period. It might not do it with just one application to any noticable degree but with continued use it will stain pools, hair, and nails.

I used it intensely for 3 months and have used it to manage algae (as it tends to want to grow like crazy where I live) since (over a year) without any issues. I will definitely be keeping an eye on it though, thanks.

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I used it intensely for 3 months and have used it to manage algae (as it tends to want to grow like crazy where I live) since (over a year) without any issues. I will definitely be keeping an eye on it though, thanks.

Most copper algaecides are known as "3 month algaecide" since they are applied every three months since it takes that long for enough of the chelated copper to stain out and need reaaplication. With continued use copper levels can rise if the copper has not stained out. If the copper is not testing in the water after 3 months then it has stained out somewhere since copper does not go away. If the pH rises the chance of staining becomes greater. If the pH drops any copper staining in the plumbing and pool could redissolve and, if the copper based product has been used for any length of time, could cause very high copper levels in the water (which just about assures that there will be either staining of the pool or of the swimmers).

If you or anyone in your family is blond or has chemically processed hair (color, perm, relaxer, etc.) I would be VERY cautious about using copper based products. Copper is what causes green hair.

IMHO, there are better alternative than playing "copper roulette".

If you are having problems with algae blooms (as you stated) then I am going to make a few educated guesses. You chlorinate with trichlor or dichlor and you do not test CYA (and it is way too high), or you use an unstabilized chlorine, do not test CYA and it is too low, and/or you do not maintain your FC level properly and let it fluctuate and drop too low at times so algae can bloom. You probably do not shock to a high enough level to kill the nascent bloom that is always there. (A bag of "shock" and no testing of FC levels, right?)

If CYA is in the proper range for your climate, FC is maintained at the proper level for your CYA, and you are keeping tabs on your water (testing it AT LEAST once a week) then you will not (I repeat, will not) have algae blooms.

IF you need a bit of extra insurance then either borates to 50 ppm or polyquat are MUCH better alternatives to copper.

Actually it all starts with a good test kit. If you do not have a Taylor K-2006. K-2005, LaMotte 7022 or an equivalent kit (strips and the 4 way kit from Ace hardware are not even close) then you need to get yourself a decent test kit so you know what the water needs, how much it needs, and how often it needs it.

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  • 2 months later...

I used it intensely for 3 months and have used it to manage algae (as it tends to want to grow like crazy where I live) since (over a year) without any issues. I will definitely be keeping an eye on it though, thanks.

Most copper algaecides are known as "3 month algaecide" since they are applied every three months since it takes that long for enough of the chelated copper to stain out and need reaaplication. With continued use copper levels can rise if the copper has not stained out. If the copper is not testing in the water after 3 months then it has stained out somewhere since copper does not go away. If the pH rises the chance of staining becomes greater. If the pH drops any copper staining in the plumbing and pool could redissolve and, if the copper based product has been used for any length of time, could cause very high copper levels in the water (which just about assures that there will be either staining of the pool or of the swimmers).

If you or anyone in your family is blond or has chemically processed hair (color, perm, relaxer, etc.) I would be VERY cautious about using copper based products. Copper is what causes green hair.

IMHO, there are better alternative than playing "copper roulette".

If you are having problems with algae blooms (as you stated) then I am going to make a few educated guesses. You chlorinate with trichlor or dichlor and you do not test CYA (and it is way too high), or you use an unstabilized chlorine, do not test CYA and it is too low, and/or you do not maintain your FC level properly and let it fluctuate and drop too low at times so algae can bloom. You probably do not shock to a high enough level to kill the nascent bloom that is always there. (A bag of "shock" and no testing of FC levels, right?)

If CYA is in the proper range for your climate, FC is maintained at the proper level for your CYA, and you are keeping tabs on your water (testing it AT LEAST once a week) then you will not (I repeat, will not) have algae blooms.

IF you need a bit of extra insurance then either borates to 50 ppm or polyquat are MUCH better alternatives to copper.

Actually it all starts with a good test kit. If you do not have a Taylor K-2006. K-2005, LaMotte 7022 or an equivalent kit (strips and the 4 way kit from Ace hardware are not even close) then you need to get yourself a decent test kit so you know what the water needs, how much it needs, and how often it needs it.

Great info for me thank you!

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