Baking Soda Mistake

[Fatboy]

Hello all Newbie here.

I have a frustrating problem. I'm in the process of having my in-ground 18x36 vinyl pool liner replace and I had let the water chemistry go amuck because I knew it would only be a few weeks and I'd be pumping all the water out of the pool and didn't want to dump money into it just to water my lawn. BIG MISTAKE!

The pool liner people need to take measurements before they can order the liner but because of the mess I have made they can't see the bottom to get the measurements.

This is where I'm at.... I had very dark green algae so I checked the PH and Chlorine levels and found that the PH was WAY low (not even close to the right color) and of course no chlorine showing. For the last 12 years I have always used PH up but this year I started using Baking Soda (Because everyone has always told me that I'm wasting money because plain old Baking soda is the exact same thing but a lot cheaper. WRONG!!! This is were someone should just SHOOT ME!!!! I have added close to 50lbs of Baking Soda to try and get the PH up in my pool (approx 30,000 gal) but it barely brought it up to 7.2. And I have added probably close to 10 lbs of chlorine but it never took and wouldn't show on my test kit. I also added 32 oz of Algae killer and the Green algae is gone but the water is VERY milky cloudy. Late yesterday I figured out that all this time I needed to add Sodium Carbonate to raise the PH NOT Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking Soda). So I added 4 lbs of PH up and waited about 2 hours and checked it again and it was finally up to 7.8 so I added about 48 oz of chlorine granules to nuke the water again. Well.... This morning it is still milky cloudy but at least the chlorine is still High about 2.0 and the PH is about 7.2.

So there you have it. I'm a moron and I need some help so that the pool liner people can measure the pool. I really don't want to dump any more money in to this mess but How do I get this water cleared up?

Green Algae + 30,000 gal of water + 50 lbs of Baking Soda + 10-12 lbs Chlorine + 4 lbs PH up = ONE BIG MESS

[PaulR]

Baking soda is often sold (at an incredible markup) as "alkalinity up" and has not so much effect on pH, as you found out. The typical "pH Up" product is also called washing soda or soda ash. Actually borax (as in 20 Mule Team) works best for raising pH.

According to The Pool Calculator the 50lb baking soda and 4lb soda ash have raised your total alkalinity (TA) by about 135. I'm not a chemistry guru so I don't know if that by itself could cause the clouding.

However, you did have a big algae outbreak and that is quite possibly the source of the clouding (dead algae floating around). Until you can maintain a chlorine level overnight, you need to keep dosing it, because the chlorine is doing its job--killing off the algae. And it may take a few days of running the filter 24/7 to clear it up.

--paulr

[Fatboy]

Thanks for the reply Paul. Since Sunday night I've been able to maintain the chlorine level between 1.5 and 2.0 and the pH level between 7.2 and 7.6. I always run the pump 24/7 year round non-stop.

I checked it again last night and the pH and chlorine were still ok but on the low side so I added another 4 lbs of pH-Up and back washed the filter until I could see the chlorine start to flow that was trapped in it and then switched it straight back into the pool to give it another boost of chlorine.

The water is still cloudy and has only slightly cleared if at all. The pool liner people are scheduled to come back out today but I'll have to cancel again because of this mess.

Is there something I could put in this 30,000 gal chemical bath I've made that will clear this up? Like a clarifier or something?

[PaulR]

Let me get this straight--after all the alkalinity you added, you have trouble keeping the pH high enough? Usually it's the other way around. Huh... what are you using as a chlorine source?

From what I've read, clarifier works in some situations but not others; unfortunately I don't know how to tell the difference. There's a different kind of product called a flocculant that will clump stuff and make it fall on the bottom, so it can be vaccuumed out; again not sure when it is and is not useful.

If you weren't in a tearing hurry then I'd say just crank the chlorine up higher so it will kill off the algae faster than it reproduces. Then when the algae is done, you can go through another process to lower your alkalinity back down. Those two processes between them would clear most kinds of cloudiness. But you're only doing this so the liner people can do their thing, so go ahead and try the clarifier and the floc -- probably can't hurt.

--paulr

[Fatboy]

Yep, After I put the 4 lbs of pH-Up in last Sunday evening it brought the pH up to about 7.6 Then last night when I checked it had dropped down to about 7.2 possibly lower. So I added another 4 lbs to try and push it above 7.6 in hopes that it will hold better and allow the chlorine to do it's job better. In the last 13 years I've only had to force the pH down one time, other than that I'm always having to push it up.

I'm using Aqua-Chem Optimum Chlorinating granules bought at Wally world. I just called the wife and asked her to read the active ingredients and this is what she told me. "Boron Sodium Oxide". She also read something like Trchloro-S-Triazinetrione 71.8%. Or something like that.

I don't know what the heck that is but doesn't it make you just want to drink that pool water! LOL

Anyhow... I'm not sure if that info helps at all but it's basically the same stuff I've used for the past 13 years that I buy from Lowes / Wally World kinda places and usually works good. I've asked the wife to take a sample down to the local pool place and have them analyze it and tell us what's going on in this milk mess. If they give us actual data/values I'll let you know what they are.

Edit:

I just got a call from the wife and the local pool place found these results.

Alkalinity = 200

Calcium = 0

PH = 7.8

Chlorine = 0.3

So what's the deal here? Is the super high alkalinity eating all the chlorine or something? I'm about ready to say the hell with it and through a few sticks of dynamite in the damn thing. Geez! All this just to dump it out on the ground in a few weeks.

Edit again:

Ok... I've calmed down a little and have done some reading. lol

Based on the fact that my TA is 200 and is possibly causing the cloudy water, should I....

1) add acid to the water to bring the TA down to normal levels then add Sodium Tetraborate to bring my pH back up? If yes then what kind of acid do I use and how much?

OR

2) Bring my chlorine level sky high in hopes that it will clear the water up so the pool liner folks can get the measurements? If yes then what type of chlorine should I use?

Thanks again for the help.

[polyvue]

Based on the fact that my TA is 200 and is possibly causing the cloudy water, should I....

1) add acid to the water to bring the TA down to normal levels then add Sodium Tetraborate to bring my pH back up? If yes then what kind of acid do I use and how much?

OR

2) Bring my chlorine level sky high in hopes that it will clear the water up so the pool liner folks can get the measurements? If yes then what type of chlorine should I use?

My vote would be #1 using muriatic acid, run pump/filter 24/7 for a day or two, then make final adjustments to pH/TA and start on #2 using 6% bleach (unscented) or 12% liquid chlorine.

[chem geek]

I'm using Aqua-Chem Optimum Chlorinating granules bought at Wally world. I just called the wife and asked her to read the active ingredients and this is what she told me. "Boron Sodium Oxide". She also read something like Trchloro-S-Triazinetrione 71.8%.

Well this explains why the pH was dropping. Trichlor is very acidic and though it appears that they tried to balance the pH somewhat by using boron sodium oxide, it still is net acidic when accounting for chlorine usage.

[Fatboy]

Well this explains why the pH was dropping. Trichlor is very acidic and though it appears that they tried to balance the pH somewhat by using boron sodium oxide, it still is net acidic when accounting for chlorine usage.

Ummmm... What? I'm a little chemistry challenged. lol Actually you nailed it because last night I checked the pH and it was 7.8 so I nuked it again (48 oz) with this same chlorine and then checked it 2 hrs later and the chlorine was well up into the 1.5 - 2.0 range. This morning the water is still cloudy and the pH dropped to 7.6 but at least the chlorine was still up around 1.5.

So what is the best way to clear the water? Keep in mind that I don't care if the water eats the hair off a dog so long as the pool liner people can see the bottom to take measurements. I don't care if I have to keep the pool closed down until the new liner is installed.

I think I found a chart / instructions that you had put together describing how to lower TA. It said to do the following.

1) Add acid to lower pH down to 7.0

2) Aeration until pH rises to 7.2

3) Add acid to lower pH down to 7.0 (continue to aerate)

4) Aeration & Acid Repeat steps 1 & 2 until TA reaches target.

5) Aeration until pH rises to to the target.

Is this my best option right now?

Thank you for your help. I have lots more questions but I think I'll hold off until I get pass this cloudy water problem.

[Fatboy]

My vote would be #1 using muriatic acid, run pump/filter 24/7 for a day or two, then make final adjustments to pH/TA and start on #2 using 6% bleach (unscented) or 12% liquid chlorine.

Thanks for your help Polyvue. I found another process (see my reply to chem geek) that I think is the recommended way to handle my problem. Once I get it cleared up I'm definitely going to start using this 6% bleach (unscented) to achieve my chlorine target.

Now I just have to figure out where to buy muriatic acid and how much I should buy. Any iders?

[PaulR]

Did the pool store test for stabilizer (cyanuric acid, CYA) or calcium hardness (CH)?

I think polyvue has it right, although I would try things in the opposite order, because I still think the most likely cause of cloudiness is dying algae. Stop using the trichlor, and start using either liquid chlorine from the pool store or regular unscented bleach--these are the same stuff, sodium hypochlorite, the pool-store stuff is basically just double strength. Two big jugs of Clorox, or two gallons of liquid chlorine, at a time; try to get your chlorine up much higher and keep it there as much as possible.

When I say "higher" I mean 5 or more. You're using the chlorine test where you use drops to turn the sample yellow, right? You want it dark yellow. The algae is still consuming chlorine quickly and you need to put in a lot. Like I said, two jugs at a time.

If you get to the point where the chlorine holds overnight a couple of times, and the cloudiness is still not clearing up, then we can think about other approaches.

--paulr

[PaulR]

Pool stores should carry muriatic acid, also hardware stores often do (check the paint department).

You can actually do both the TA process and maintain a 5+ chlorine at the same time, the TA process is likely to take a while that's all.

--paulr

[Fatboy]

They did test for calcium and it was at zero. I didn't see anything in the test results about CYA though. Why do you ask? What effect does zero calcium have in my cloudy mess?

I'll put 2 jugs of 6% Clorox in tonight when I get home. BTW... Last night was the first time during this nightmare that the chlorine level actually held high (1.5 to 2.0) but I understand what you are saying and I'll hit it hard with the right stuff tonight. And yes, I'm using the cheap pool test kit with colors. This is when it really sucks to be color blind. lol But I get through it by judging the different "shades" on the test kit.

Thanks for the help.

[polyvue]

They did test for calcium and it was at zero. I didn't see anything in the test results about CYA though. Why do you ask? What effect does zero calcium have in my cloudy mess?

I'll put 2 jugs of 6% Clorox in tonight when I get home. BTW... Last night was the first time during this nightmare that the chlorine level actually held high (1.5 to 2.0) but I understand what you are saying and I'll hit it hard with the right stuff tonight. And yes, I'm using the cheap pool test kit with colors. This is when it really sucks to be color blind. lol But I get through it by judging the different "shades" on the test kit.

Thanks for the help.

The CYA (cyanuric acid) level that Paul references is important because of its relationship with chlorine's effectiveness at sanitizing and oxidizing (including destruction of algae). Check out this link -- it's a handy chart that will give you a sense of how much chlorine is needed to maintain sanitation levels and how much is needed to shock. If you're not measuring CYA then you really don't know how much chlorine is necessary. Some CYA is good; too much can defeat your best efforts in shocking or defeating algae.

Another useful table is one that shows recommended levels of chemistry for your type of pool. You'll note that some calcium is desirable even in a vinyl-sided pool, and much more if your pool is concrete/plaster or tile.

You mentioned color blindness - a remarkably common condition - and there is a chlorine test that will work for you: a FAS/DPD chlorine test. It starts off pink/red and when the right amount of drops are applied to the sample water, all color disappears. It's available separately and in better residential test kits, such as Taylor's K-2006.

[PaulR]

If you have zero CH, then the clouding isn't due to calcium. Just ruling out various other possibilities. Algae and excessive alkalinity remain the top contenders for what's behind the clouding.

Because you've been using trichlor as your chlorine source, it is likely that your CYA is very high. And as polyvue says, if that's true then you need much much higher chlorine levels. However I've been reluctant to suggest that for a couple of reasons:

1) if the clouding is from excessive alkalinity, then you need to aggressively lower TA, which requires measuring pH all the time, and the pH test starts to get wonky as FC gets higher than 10 or so.

2) you have just the low-end OTO (yellow drops) test, which can measure higher than 5 but nobody ever sells a color scale that goes higher than 5, so that's why I tell you to keep it up around 5.

5) no, 3) we don't actually know that your CYA level is way up there; it's just an assumption. So if you have a pool store near you that will do that test, it would help a lot to know.

Anyway... keep dumping in the bleach, and working on lowering your TA. It's gotta clear up eventually.

--paulr

[PaulR]

Having just said you need to do bleach and TA reduction, for safety's sake I need to observe that you do not add acid and any form of chlorine at the same time... give it a good half hour in between, if you do want to add both at more or less the same time.

--paulr

[Fatboy]

Ok. Here's the latest results. Last night I tested the chlorine and pH before I put 2 jugs of 6% bleach.

Chlorine = 5.0 or above

pH = 7.6 to 7.8

There was a slight visual improvement in the cloudiness. I went ahead and added 2 jugs of bleach. This morning there was another visual improvement such that I can now see the seams on the bottom in the shallow end. Also, I have been noticing a strong chlorine odor all week during all this. I'm guessing that's due to the high TA and now Chlorine levels but thought I should mention it in case that helps identify anything.

Here is the full test results that the local pool place found on Tuesday. I have added 48oz of trichlor and 2 jugs of 6% Clorox since these results so the chlorine is off the chart right now.

Chlorine = 0.3

Chlorine stabilizer = 100

pH = 7.8

TA = 200

Calcium = 0

Thanks again to all of you for all the great help.

[PaulR]

It's working! The pool is slowly clearing up. That's excellent.

Chlorine in the pool actually has two testable components, which are FC (free chlorine) and CC (combined chlorine); add these together to get total chlorine (TC). It's kind of like cholesterol, FC=good, CC=bad. FC is the active sanitizer/oxidizer; CC is in effect the waste product after the FC has cleaned something up. A strong chlorine odor in an outdoor pool typically indicates an elevated CC level. That would be expected when you're clearing up an algae bloom.

Your test kit measures TC. In a clean pool, CC is close to zero so in that case TC is basically all FC. Your pool at the moment, not so much. But you're about to replace the liner, so to some extent we don't really care right now.

The stabilizer test says 100 but that's about as high as the usual test goes, so it could be significantly more.

- Do NOT put in any more trichlor.

You'll be replacing all your water when you get the new liner, and you'll be starting fresh at that point; you can pick up a top quality test kit (Taylor K-2006 or tftestkits.net TF-100) and do a much better job managing the pool at that point. (Normally you'd want stabilizer to be in the 30-50 range; but trichlor adds 6ppm CYA for every 10ppm FC, so over time you over-stabilize the pool and the chlorine becomes less and less effective. So in the long run, you don't want to use trichlor as your everyday chlorine source.)

You're doing great, won't be long now before you can basically hit the reset button on this puppy.

--paulr

[Fatboy]

Thanks Paul!

I just got a call from the wife and apparently it had cleared up enough because the pool liner guys just came out and took the measurements. Sooooo... The clock is ticking for the new liner finally. lol 2 weeks from now it'll be installed.

They include the proper start-up chemicals when they install the liner and while the sand filter is shut off during this process I plan on cleaning it out and putting new sand in it as it's been about 5 years since I changed it out. Plus I want to start out with everything cleeeean. lol I wish I could afford a chlorine generator but that will have to wait for now.

I understand what you are saying about not using the Triclore stuff any more and after all this mess I want to take the best care possible for this new liner. Can you give me a list or something of the correct chemicals I should start using after this fresh start. Until this mess (which was my fault) I have never had any major issues other than the occasional slight algae problem (again, probably my fault due to slacking). For the 12 years I've had this pool I've always used the Lowes / Home Depot / Walmart standard chemicals to maintain the pool. But I've always hated the cost of this stuff. So if there is any recommended chemicals like Clorox 6% etc.. that I could/should use from now on, I would much appreciate your input.

Thanks again for all the help.

[chem geek]

Yes, you can use 6% unscented bleach, preferably Clorox Regular though you can also use off-brand Ultra bleach though the latter has more excess lye in it so would tend to make the pH rise a little more. You can learn about how to maintain your pool easily by reading the Pool School.

[Fatboy]

Thanks! I've read so much my brain hurts now. lol I guess I should have read that "before you post" part to begin with but I'm learning.

Before I found this forum I had always just monitored my Chlorine and pH with one of those $6 test kits at Wally World, but now I think I'll spend the bucks on one of those advanced kits like the K2600 so all the guess work is removed. Like right now I THINK that my FC is way above 5ppm but I'm guessing it's much lower than that and what I'm actually reading is CC from the heavy algae bloom I had killed off.

Thanks again for that link. I'll be doing a lot reading this weekend for sure.

[chem geek]

You can get the Taylor K-2006 for a good online price here or you can get the TF-100 kit here with the latter kit having more volume of reagents so close to comparable in price per test. A comparison of the two test kits is in a link in the Pool School here.

[Fatboy]

Well... This is rich. Y'all are gonna love this one.

I took a water sample down to the local pool place to have them run all the test. I told the lady I wanted EVERYTHING tested. She finishes all the test and brings the sheet back to me filled out the same as it was that they did earlier in the week for my wife. I asked her if that 0.3 was TC or was that FC and you talk about a deer in the headlight look. LOL She was clueless!!! She said thats what you have for chlorine. I asked again if that was TC or FC or CC. She said it was combined chlorine. I said ok... so what is the free chlorine? Her reply.... "Our test only shows all the chlorine because that's all that matters".

WOW!!! And I thought I was clueless. But hey... she made $5 off me so who am I to judge.

Sooooo It's time to buy that K-2006 or maybe the TF-100 test kit.

Question. Can I buy the replacement reagents from any local pool place or do I need to buy them on-line? And do they have to be Taylor brand?

[chem geek]

Replacement reagents do have to be the Taylor brand, but you can buy them from either location I linked to though do note that the pH indicator dye is different in the two tests because the test vials are different size -- otherwise, the reagents are the same. Most stores don't carry replacement reagents, but if you find one that does and they are from Taylor and they haven't been sitting on the shelf for some years, then you can get them there.

[PaulR]

Leslie's carries refills for most Taylor reagents, if there's one near you. I haven't tried getting FAS-DPD replacements through them, though.

There's a non-chain store near me that I consider generally superior to Leslie's, but they don't carry Taylor kits or refills.

--paulr

[al_novak]

You can use https://poolchemicalcalculator.com/Pool-pH-Calculator.html to help you factor what you need to balance your pH.  You'll also want to balance your alkalinity, there is a tool for that there as well.