Gfci Or No Gfci

[JamesIlsley]

Ok, so took delivery of my first spa today. The electrician/installer wired the spa to my outdoor main breaker box about 10 feet from the spa (in sight).

Here is the issue: I let him talk me into not using a GFCI breaker. He told me that it was my choice (since I paid for parts separately it didn't make a difference to him either way) but he advised that when he installs GFCI breakers "after about six months people get sick of them nuisance tipping all the time and usually call him back out to put in a regular breaker" He said he had been installing electrical for spas for 20 years and never had a problem and that the regular breaker was safe.

So anyway... I am having major second thoughts. I am considering picking up the GFCI breaker and putting it. My question: does anyone agree with what this guy told me? Is the "nuisance" tripping something that happens often? I have seen special "spa friendly" boxes that are supposed to help the false trips but they are all in disconnects (which I dont need since my breaker box is positioned properly as the disconnect.) Is there a special breaker that I should get?

Sorry to have so many questions, but before I fill this puppy up I want to be sure I am making good choices :-)

[Dnepr Dave]

Install the GFCI breaker! Your electrician should know that the electrical code Requires a GFCI on a hot tub. Having just a regular breaker is dangerous!

My GFCI's have never tripped on their own.

Dave

[pauldee]

I've NEVER had a false trip. The fact that you're asking leads me to believe that you'll never be comfortable without the GFCI. Do you want to soak, looking at the stars, wondering if you're safe?

[JamesIlsley]

Install the GFCI breaker! Your electrician should know that the electrical code Requires a GFCI on a hot tub. Having just a regular breaker is dangerous!

My GFCI's have never tripped on their own.

Dave

That is what I thought. (He definitely knows it isnt up to code, he just doesn't agree with the code)

So I guess the second part of my question is whether there is a 'special' breaker that works better with spas?

[north_of_boston]

Ok, so took delivery of my first spa today. The electrician/installer wired the spa to my outdoor main breaker box about 10 feet from the spa (in sight).

Here is the issue: I let him talk me into not using a GFCI breaker. He told me that it was my choice (since I paid for parts separately it didn't make a difference to him either way) but he advised that when he installs GFCI breakers "after about six months people get sick of them nuisance tipping all the time and usually call him back out to put in a regular breaker" He said he had been installing electrical for spas for 20 years and never had a problem and that the regular breaker was safe.

So anyway... I am having major second thoughts. I am considering picking up the GFCI breaker and putting it. My question: does anyone agree with what this guy told me? Is the "nuisance" tripping something that happens often? I have seen special "spa friendly" boxes that are supposed to help the false trips but they are all in disconnects (which I dont need since my breaker box is positioned properly as the disconnect.) Is there a special breaker that I should get?

Sorry to have so many questions, but before I fill this puppy up I want to be sure I am making good choices :-)

The GFCI is required in many states, and while I am not an electrician, I was required to have my spa on a dedicated circuit, 240V, 50a, with a GFCI breaker. I am supposed to test the breaker every month. When this new tub was installed, I had a ***licensed master electrician*** (and insured) who has installed hundreds of tubs do the job.

As far as I know, the GFCI is mandated by code, at least here in Massachusetts. If you purchased your spa from a dealer -- ASK THE DEALER about code.

And -- the GFCI is there for a reason. SAFETY.

While I am a slightly educated consumer and nothing more, I would have gone with the GFCI. And, no, given my scope of knowledge on the subject, which isn't all that great, I don't agree with the installer.

When I had my spa re-done last month -- the electrician, I had complete confidence in him because pools and tubs are his specialty. He pulled a permit. He inspected the old wiring and the new. He replaced the breaker from the 1999 tub install (code has changed, GFCI is mandatory) ... and I feel good.

I would not feel comfortable with what you were told....

[JamesIlsley]

Ok, so took delivery of my first spa today. The electrician/installer wired the spa to my outdoor main breaker box about 10 feet from the spa (in sight).

Here is the issue: I let him talk me into not using a GFCI breaker. He told me that it was my choice (since I paid for parts separately it didn't make a difference to him either way) but he advised that when he installs GFCI breakers "after about six months people get sick of them nuisance tipping all the time and usually call him back out to put in a regular breaker" He said he had been installing electrical for spas for 20 years and never had a problem and that the regular breaker was safe.

So anyway... I am having major second thoughts. I am considering picking up the GFCI breaker and putting it. My question: does anyone agree with what this guy told me? Is the "nuisance" tripping something that happens often? I have seen special "spa friendly" boxes that are supposed to help the false trips but they are all in disconnects (which I dont need since my breaker box is positioned properly as the disconnect.) Is there a special breaker that I should get?

Sorry to have so many questions, but before I fill this puppy up I want to be sure I am making good choices :-)

The GFCI is required in many states, and while I am not an electrician, I was required to have my spa on a dedicated circuit, 240V, 50a, with a GFCI breaker. I am supposed to test the breaker every month. When this new tub was installed, I had a ***licensed master electrician*** (and insured) who has installed hundreds of tubs do the job.

As far as I know, the GFCI is mandated by code, at least here in Massachusetts. If you purchased your spa from a dealer -- ASK THE DEALER about code.

And -- the GFCI is there for a reason. SAFETY.

While I am a slightly educated consumer and nothing more, I would have gone with the GFCI. And, no, given my scope of knowledge on the subject, I don't agree with the installer.

Yes, I agree with you. I am changing it out for a GFCI breaker. That is why I am here :-) So the question, does just a regular, properly sized GFCI breaker work for everyone or is there a "special" one that is better at avoiding trips. I would hate to have it trip while out of town in the winter and end up with an frozen situation.

[hot_water]

I'm sorry to say, but your electrician is a numbskull. That's the kindest thing I can say.

GFCI is required by code. It's required by NEC. And it's required by common sense. Here you have an electrified tub of water with people in it... if it's wired correctly the water is connected to the green equipment ground through the bonding of the tub.... and this dope is telling you no GFCI??? In the event of a ground fault, what, we just shrug our shoulders when everyone dies?

The regular breaker is NOT safe. A 50 or 60 amp regular breaker trips when your current exceeds 50 or 60 amps! If the there's a ground fault that's causing the problem, at those current levels, everyone is long since toast. A GFCI breaker trips at ground fault currents exceeding 5 milliamps. That's 0.005 amps.

Please, don't call him again. Ever.

As for the breaker, get one that is intended for your panel. Just because it will fit does not mean that it's correct. In other words, put a Square D Homeline in a Square D Homeline panel, put a Cutler Hamer in a Cutler Hamer panel, etc. Some people will say it doesn't matter, but the panel maker amd the GFI maker won't take any responsibility or warranty anything if you don't do this.

You are unlikely to have nuisance trips since you're just 10 feet away, if it's wired correctly.

Since your electrician has already demonstrated his keen understanding, make sure that he runs both the white and green back to the panel, assuming you have a four wire (red, black, white and green) service, and doesn't tie the white to the green at the spa. These two - white and green - only connect at the house panel (true if you add a separate disconnect box as well).

Also, please check your local code. You are required to have a disconnect that is plainly marked as such for the spa. A breaker in a spa disconnect box satisfies this code requirement. Not sure if a breaker in the main panel qualifies. You might need to add a box. Lowe's and Home Depot have them, arounf $100. Again, check your code. Code compliance is important. If you are not pulling a permit and/or are not to code, your homeowners insurance may give you grief if you ever have any sort of electrical problem. I'm talking fire and liability insurance.

[JamesIlsley]

I'm sorry to say, but your electrician is a numbskull. That's the kindest thing I can say.

GFCI is required by code. It's required by NEC. And it's required by common sense. Here you have an electrified tub of water with people in it... if it's wired correctly the water is connected to the green equipment ground through the bonding of the tub.... and this dope is telling you no GFCI??? In the event of a ground fault, what, we just shrug our shoulders when everyone dies?

The regular breaker is NOT safe. A 50 or 60 amp regular breaker trips when your current exceeds 50 or 60 amps! If the there's a ground fault that's causing the problem, at those current levels, everyone is long since toast. A GFCI breaker trips at ground fault currents exceeding 5 milliamps. That's 0.005 amps.

Please, don't call him again. Ever.

As for the breaker, get one that is intended for your panel. Just because it will fit does not mean that it's correct. In other words, put a Square D Homeline in a Square D Homeline panel, put a Cutler Hamer in a Cutler Hamer panel, etc. Some people will say it doesn't matter, but the panel maker amd the GFI maker won't take any responsibility or warranty anything if you don't do this.

You are unlikely to have nuisance trips since you're just 10 feet away, if it's wired correctly.

Since your electrician has already demonstrated his keen understanding, make sure that he runs both the white and green back to the panel, assuming you have a four wire (red, black, white and green) service, and doesn't tie the white to the green at the spa. These two - white and green - only connect at the house panel (true if you add a separate disconnect box as well).

Also, please check your local code. You are required to have a disconnect that is plainly marked as such for the spa. A breaker in a spa disconnect box satisfies this code requirement. Not sure if a breaker in the main panel qualifies. You might need to add a box. Lowe's and Home Depot have them, arounf $100. Again, check your code. Code compliance is important. If you are not pulling a permit and/or are not to code, your homeowners insurance may give you grief if you ever have any sort of electrical problem. I'm talking fire and liability insurance.

Perfect answer. I will get the proper breaker and install it asap. Good call on double checking that the white and green are not tied. I will check that too. Crazy that this guy is actually a licensed electrician and has been in spa sales for 20 years. (He works for my dealer) I wonder how many people are taking a risk and do not even know it. I am glad I knew enough to immediately do my research.

Don't ya hate it when you pay a professional and then end up having to redo the work? So I guess I paid him several hundred dollars to bury a 10 foot piece of pipe.

[JamesIlsley]

Oh, and yes the breaker box solution does meet code as long as it is in the right position (no closer than 5 feet and in line of sight):

"A way to remove power from utilization

equipment for swimming pools is required.

A maintenance disconnecting means is required for all utilization equipment

except lighting. The disconnect must simultaneously disconnect all

ungrounded conductors, and it must be accessible and within sight of the

equipment.

Each disconnecting means must also be located no closer than 5 ft.

horizontally from the inside walls of the pool, spa or hot tub. The disconnect

can be closer than 5 ft. to the inside walls of the pool, spa or hot tub if there is

a barrier installed that would require 5 ft. of travel to reach the disconnect.

Other electrical equipment around swimming pools, spas and hot tubs are

required to maintain horizontal distances from the edge of the water.

Receptacles for pool-pump motors and general use receptacles must be no

closer than 6 ft. from the water. Luminaires and paddle fans cannot be

installed overhead within 5 ft. of the edge of the pool. Switching devices must

be located at least 5 ft. horizontally from the inside walls of a pool, unless a

barrier is installed. "

[Kreg]

Wow, I cannot believe what I am reading!! So this guy works for the spa dealer? I guess they don't like repeat business. Unreal...

Anyways, good to hear you have decided to install the GFCI breaker. All breakers can "go weak" over time and cause tripping. This problem is not exclusive to GFCI breakers, so just do it the right way.

[bart6453]

This could be a story in the Darwin awards.

[E. Olson]

There are some scary people in this world, and the scariest are licensed "professionals" who are fools in their field.

I'll deal with "nuisance" all day long before I risk my life to avoid it.

Anyway, glad you're getting it done right. So this guy is not only a hot tub installer, but also a licensed electrician? Whew... scary, scary world....

And my heart goes out to the other people who he's talked into this nightmare ticking time bomb scenario.

[Stuart A]

Also just in case any one from England is reading this, we have to use them as well but its called an RCD over here. The spa is classed as an outdoor basin and under the regs. comes under a special location and one of the requirements is the use of a RCD. After a new circuit is installed we have to issue a test certificate, do you have this requirement in America, if so it would seem quite odd on a new install to have a non conforming installation on an inspect and test certificate.

Even if this was not in the regs. I cannot understand why a so called qualified electrician would not want to install one.

[pkillur]

Ok, so took delivery of my first spa today. The electrician/installer wired the spa to my outdoor main breaker box about 10 feet from the spa (in sight).

Here is the issue: I let him talk me into not using a GFCI breaker. He told me that it was my choice (since I paid for parts separately it didn't make a difference to him either way) but he advised that when he installs GFCI breakers "after about six months people get sick of them nuisance tipping all the time and usually call him back out to put in a regular breaker" He said he had been installing electrical for spas for 20 years and never had a problem and that the regular breaker was safe.

So anyway... I am having major second thoughts. I am considering picking up the GFCI breaker and putting it. My question: does anyone agree with what this guy told me? Is the "nuisance" tripping something that happens often? I have seen special "spa friendly" boxes that are supposed to help the false trips but they are all in disconnects (which I dont need since my breaker box is positioned properly as the disconnect.) Is there a special breaker that I should get?

Sorry to have so many questions, but before I fill this puppy up I want to be sure I am making good choices :-)

I would have another electrician come out and replace the standard with a GFI. I'm a sometimes hack engineering type who probably takes more risks than others - and I wouldn't dream of removing the GFI. It's not going to trip for no reason - I'm wondering if dudeman has limited hot tub installs and one of them had a bad brand of GFI maybe? I've had two and never had a GFI trip that wasn't inevitably pointing to bad hardware.

[hot_water]

I would have another electrician come out and replace the standard with a GFI. I'm a sometimes hack engineering type who probably takes more risks than others - and I wouldn't dream of removing the GFI. It's not going to trip for no reason - I'm wondering if dudeman has limited hot tub installs and one of them had a bad brand of GFI maybe? I've had two and never had a GFI trip that wasn't inevitably pointing to bad hardware.

There are conditions where you can get false trips. The GFCI trips at very low currents. 0.005 amps is nothing compared to the large currents that are going through the wires when the spa is operating. A bit of inductive coupling in a long run creating the 5 milliamp imbalance could cause a trip. But, if the installation is done correctly and well, it's *most likely* not going to be a problem.

In any case, it is stupid-stupid-stupid not to have a GFCI on a hot tub. Nuisance tripping is just not a good reason for leaving out the GFCI. There is no good reason. If I were OP, I would REPORT this "electrician" and get his license pulled before someone gets killed. It's that serious.

[HockeyKat]

I couldn't agree more with what people are saying here.

My GFCI has tripped once in 5 years, and it was because my tub was emptying itself (plumbing issue). I was in it at the time, and couldn't be happier that it tripped, and therefore I am alive to be typing this right now.

The breaker box was about $75-100 at Lowe's and included everything. It looks almost exactly like the A/C one but is made for spas/hot tubs. Have them wire that in between your current breaker and your spa.

[d1dennis2009]

A GFCI is required by most manufacturer and is the smartest and safest way to proceed. I would not install a spa without one, it is also code in most states.

[BigDfromTN]

Just Curious......

Was there a permit pulled for this job?

Was it inspected by code enforcement afterward?

Does the spa dealer know this guy is suggesting this? (If so it would make me leery of them and their service dept.)

Reporting him would be in order in my opinion. That is a serious safety violation!

[JamesIlsley]

So an update:

I just finished making everything right. When I opened the box, I noticed that not only did he not use a gfci, but he used a 50 amp breaker on a 60 amp spa! I called the manufacturer (who were awesome) and they connected me with their tech guy who confirmed that the model tub I have NEEDs a 60 amp as it pulls close to 50 amps. Doh!

I found out that Square D doesn't make a 60 amp gfci, so I got a auxiliary spa box with a built in 60 amp gfci breaker at Home Depot and a Square D regular 60 amp breaker for the main box. I mounted the aux spa box right next to the main box, ran the power through a very stable conduit and wired everything up verbatim to the manufacturer's instructions. Lots of work but it wasn't hard. Not sure why the "electrician" couldn't do it right the first time.

So long story short, everything is connected, tested and working great. The new tub is filling right now!

Thank you all for your help. I knew something was not right but it is always good to have others confirm what you already know. :-)

Hope everyone has a great weekend!

[JerimiahR]

Ok, so took delivery of my first spa today. The electrician/installer wired the spa to my outdoor main breaker box about 10 feet from the spa (in sight).

Here is the issue: I let him talk me into not using a GFCI breaker. He told me that it was my choice (since I paid for parts separately it didn't make a difference to him either way) but he advised that when he installs GFCI breakers "after about six months people get sick of them nuisance tipping all the time and usually call him back out to put in a regular breaker" He said he had been installing electrical for spas for 20 years and never had a problem and that the regular breaker was safe.

So anyway... I am having major second thoughts. I am considering picking up the GFCI breaker and putting it. My question: does anyone agree with what this guy told me? Is the "nuisance" tripping something that happens often? I have seen special "spa friendly" boxes that are supposed to help the false trips but they are all in disconnects (which I dont need since my breaker box is positioned properly as the disconnect.) Is there a special breaker that I should get?

Sorry to have so many questions, but before I fill this puppy up I want to be sure I am making good choices :-)

Sounds like your electrician either needs a serious update on Code, or something more. GFCI breakers are required. Plus, GFCI breakers really only trip for a couple reasons: 1) Improper wiring or electrical short (causing power to ground) or 2) Bad GFCI breaker. 3) Pulling to much amperage through the breaker. So if this electrician is getting call backs for "nuisance" trips, there's probably something wrong with the wiring.

So an update:

I just finished making everything right. When I opened the box, I noticed that not only did he not use a gfci, but he used a 50 amp breaker on a 60 amp spa! I called the manufacturer (who were awesome) and they connected me with their tech guy who confirmed that the model tub I have NEEDs a 60 amp as it pulls close to 50 amps. Doh!

I found out that Square D doesn't make a 60 amp gfci, so I got a auxiliary spa box with a built in 60 amp gfci breaker at Home Depot and a Square D regular 60 amp breaker for the main box. I mounted the aux spa box right next to the main box, ran the power through a very stable conduit and wired everything up verbatim to the manufacturer's instructions. Lots of work but it wasn't hard. Not sure why the "electrician" couldn't do it right the first time.

So long story short, everything is connected, tested and working great. The new tub is filling right now!

Thank you all for your help. I knew something was not right but it is always good to have others confirm what you already know. :-)

Hope everyone has a great weekend!

Make sure the wire size is correct for 60amp service. Not only from the disconnect to the spa, but also from the main power source to the disconnect. If the wire for instance is too small, pushing 60 amps through it could cause a electrical/fire hazard.

[NewB@Spa]

I barely read any of the other posts, but I agree with most. This "electrician" should be jailed, sued and/or have his license (assuming he has one) revoked. What he recommended is just plain deadly. I have to say there are some parts of the NEC that I do not readily agree with ( sometimes overkill), but this requirement is DEAD on!

[THE SPA GUY]

boy my kind of electrician does he wire houses also.. could not resist ,,,,what a putz......

[Poolman18]

I wouldn't even get in the spa if it wasn't GFCI !!!!

[JamesIlsley]

I wouldn't even get in the spa if it wasn't GFCI !!!!

neither would I. That is why I fixed it. :-)

[n1oty]

Ok, so took delivery of my first spa today. The electrician/installer wired the spa to my outdoor main breaker box about 10 feet from the spa (in sight).

Here is the issue: I let him talk me into not using a GFCI breaker. He told me that it was my choice (since I paid for parts separately it didn't make a difference to him either way) but he advised that when he installs GFCI breakers "after about six months people get sick of them nuisance tipping all the time and usually call him back out to put in a regular breaker" He said he had been installing electrical for spas for 20 years and never had a problem and that the regular breaker was safe.

So anyway... I am having major second thoughts. I am considering picking up the GFCI breaker and putting it. My question: does anyone agree with what this guy told me? Is the "nuisance" tripping something that happens often? I have seen special "spa friendly" boxes that are supposed to help the false trips but they are all in disconnects (which I dont need since my breaker box is positioned properly as the disconnect.) Is there a special breaker that I should get?

Sorry to have so many questions, but before I fill this puppy up I want to be sure I am making good choices :-)

Sounds like your electrician either needs a serious update on Code, or something more. GFCI breakers are required. Plus, GFCI breakers really only trip for a couple reasons: 1) Improper wiring or electrical short (causing power to ground) or 2) Bad GFCI breaker. 3) Pulling to much amperage through the breaker. So if this electrician is getting call backs for "nuisance" trips, there's probably something wrong with the wiring.

So an update:

I just finished making everything right. When I opened the box, I noticed that not only did he not use a gfci, but he used a 50 amp breaker on a 60 amp spa! I called the manufacturer (who were awesome) and they connected me with their tech guy who confirmed that the model tub I have NEEDs a 60 amp as it pulls close to 50 amps. Doh!

I found out that Square D doesn't make a 60 amp gfci, so I got a auxiliary spa box with a built in 60 amp gfci breaker at Home Depot and a Square D regular 60 amp breaker for the main box. I mounted the aux spa box right next to the main box, ran the power through a very stable conduit and wired everything up verbatim to the manufacturer's instructions. Lots of work but it wasn't hard. Not sure why the "electrician" couldn't do it right the first time.

So long story short, everything is connected, tested and working great. The new tub is filling right now!

Thank you all for your help. I knew something was not right but it is always good to have others confirm what you already know. :-)

Hope everyone has a great weekend!

Make sure the wire size is correct for 60amp service. Not only from the disconnect to the spa, but also from the main power source to the disconnect. If the wire for instance is too small, pushing 60 amps through it could cause a electrical/fire hazard.

++++++1

Everyone else has touched on the necessity of the GFCI, but pay attention to this post. Double check all the wiring to ensure it is the proper size and type for your installation. If the electrician screwed up the breaker sizing, he could just as easily screwed up the ampacity of ALL the wiring.

John