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Ionized Pool Sanitation....any Good?


Gavin

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You have accurately and correctly assessed one of the main problems with metal ion systems. If you have a plaster pool, you have to be very, very careful to control the pH and metal ion levels so that neither gets too high or else you can get staining (and greenish tints to blond hair). You can't use such systems by themselves since they 1) are not oxidizers so you would build up bather waste and other organics in your pool and 2) they are not fast acting sanitizers so do not prevent person-to-person transmission nor are they particularly effective against viruses.

Metal ions do not go away so if your water with copper and silver ions is getting periodically diluted and such water getting dumped into storm drains, then that is not good for fish or other water sources so is hardly "green". At least with chlorine, it tends to get used up and turns into chloride (salt) -- it doesn't persist (except as salt which at higher levels can be a problem for water treatment plants). The downside with chlorine is the disinfection by-products -- chlorine combined with ammonia and organics.

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You have accurately and correctly assessed one of the main problems with metal ion systems. If you have a plaster pool, you have to be very, very careful to control the pH and metal ion levels so that neither gets too high or else you can get staining (and greenish tints to blond hair). You can't use such systems by themselves since they 1) are not oxidizers so you would build up bather waste and other organics in your pool and 2) they are not fast acting sanitizers so do not prevent person-to-person transmission nor are they particularly effective against viruses.

Metal ions do not go away so if your water with copper and silver ions is getting periodically diluted and such water getting dumped into storm drains, then that is not good for fish or other water sources so is hardly "green". At least with chlorine, it tends to get used up and turns into chloride (salt) -- it doesn't persist (except as salt which at higher levels can be a problem for water treatment plants). The downside with chlorine is the disinfection by-products -- chlorine combined with ammonia and organics.

Thanks. I thought it was more hype than for real world use..a friend recommended "PoolSan".

He said.."my family is allergic to Chlorine, so we're PoolSan users! (you should look into PoolSan - Chlorine close to being banned in real countries! Horrific side effects for kids, including bronchitis, asthma and long term lung damage)".

This PoolSan is just a ionize system from what I've read right? it doesn't seem to use an ionizer: "PoolSan is a saturated complex ionic aqueous solution containing chiefly Copper, Zinc, Gold, Silver, Aluminium, Manganese, Iron and Nitrogen." what's that!?

he also said he had his pool resurfaced with Diamond Brite 3 years ago and it now needs resurfacing. he said the person who put the Diamond brite on did it too thin. I'm guessing this PoolSan system wasn't maintaining pH and TA levels or something and eroded the Diamond Brite.

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  • 2 weeks later...

If you love your backyard swimming pool but hate dealing with the chemicals, then a chemical-free water sanitation system may be worth looking into. There are quite a few alternatives to chlorine on the market today, and one of the newer ones is copper.

EcoSmarte uses it to clean pools and spas:

“The ECOsmarte oxygen electrodes deliver a non-chemical shock to your water when the water passes through your pressure line. Once per week you test your pH and copper levels. You will switch the button on your Electronic Control Unit and ionize for 4 – 8 hours depending on your pool size and bather load. This will put copper in your pool which is a great algaecide and deadly to viruses.” (And it doesn’t have that strong chlorine smell either.)

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The problem with any of these "chemical free" systems, is that people automatically assume that you don't have to add any chemicals. These systems only replace your sanitizer, they do not balance your PH, Alkalinity, Calcium Hardness, or Oxidizer levels. You are still testing pool water at least one time per week, and adding chemicals accordingly. In the same respect, you are still using a oxidizer with an ion system. Typically you activate your ion system with calcium Hypochlorite, and then maintain weekly with a potassium monopersulfate. I am a pool professional and in all honesty, I feel that unless you have reactions to chlorine, it is best to stick with that. It is by far the easiest. If you are trying to go "green" carefully research your products, as many of them still require some type of chlorine for activation, or use a peroxide based oxidizer. Hope this helps!

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The problem with any of these "chemical free" systems, is that people automatically assume that you don't have to add any chemicals. These systems only replace your sanitizer, they do not balance your PH, Alkalinity, Calcium Hardness, or Oxidizer levels. You are still testing pool water at least one time per week, and adding chemicals accordingly. In the same respect, you are still using a oxidizer with an ion system. Typically you activate your ion system with calcium Hypochlorite, and then maintain weekly with a potassium monopersulfate. I am a pool professional and in all honesty, I feel that unless you have reactions to chlorine, it is best to stick with that. It is by far the easiest. If you are trying to go "green" carefully research your products, as many of them still require some type of chlorine for activation, or use a peroxide based oxidizer. Hope this helps!

Thanks. I have been researching this product a lot.

Once a week or when the oxygen level gets below a certain number you have to shock with the regenerator which is basically a chlorine free oxidizer. I'd stay away from CalHypo.

Careful monitoring of pH, copper and oxygen levels are important. and also very important not to over shock or add too much of the mineral ion solution...otherwise staining can occur.

I bought one of the test kits and might try this system out.

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  • 2 months later...

I've had the CLfree system (Arizona) for two full seasons. Copper and Titanium plates hooked up to low volt electricity. Automatic PH adjustmnet with CO2 gas.

Works as advertised. I add a clarifier and algecide weekly and test the water weekly for PH tot alkalinity and copper (should be .7ppm). I have a fiberglass pool and developed a stain when I first installed the CLfree. Problem, I think (still working on it) was that I had the CL free operating 24 hours a day for a week until I was told that ten hours a day was sufficient.

Bottom line, the water is like a fresh water pool. Pulled out 20 salamanders one day and tree frogs lays eggs in it.

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  • 5 months later...

Having metal ions in the water is better than nothing at all as copper ions will generally prevent uncontrolled bacterial growth for many bacteria (though not E.coli at pool concentrations of copper ion), though metal ions kill slowly and are not effective against most viruses nor protozoan oocysts. I created a table in this post showing the kill time using chlorine (roughly a Free Chlorine level that is 10% of the Cyanuric Acid level) vs. copper vs. silver at recommended concentrations for use in pools/spas. You should not fool yourself into thinking that your pool is as sanitary as one using chlorine. Metal ion systems are not allowed to be used by themselves in any commercial/public pool in the U.S. (or Canada or Australia or Germany, etc.).

The Cl Free system also has an oxidation system, but that is only for water flowing through their unit so will do nothing to control bacteria that adhere themselves to surfaces, potentially forming biofilms. Given that copper ions prevent uncontrolled bacteria growth for many bacteria, this concern is mostly for bacteria such as E.coli where copper ions are not effective. If you additionally use an alagecide such as PolyQuat 60, then that might help even more against bacterial growth including E.coli, though it's not a fast kill.

Now, in practice, the risk in a low bather-load residential pool is low since you don't have lots of people, some of whom may be sick, swimming in your pool. So the risk for person-to-person transmission is low. Nevertheless, you still release fecal matter (as well as sweat and urine and dead skin cells, etc.) into the water.

Pool and spa disinfectants must pass EPA DIS/TSS-12 in order to make any claims of disinfection/sanitation, killing bacteria, being a bactericide, etc. Products for pools that pass this strict test all have either chlorine, bromine or Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB in them. For spas, Nature2 with MPS also passed (the silver ions in Nature2 in conjunction with MPS at hot spa temperatures is a fast enough disinfectant).

So "good" is a relative term. There are pros and cons, but metal ion systems, even with oxidation systems, are not as sanitary as chlorine. Whether this matters in low bather-load residential pools is debatable, but such systems are not allowed in commercial/public pools without one of the EPA-approved disinfectants mentioned above. The biggest issue with metal ion systems is the potential for staining when either the metal ion concentration gets too high or the pH gets too high. This isn't as much of a problem in vinyl pools, but is much riskier in a plaster pool (and fiberglass).

As for Cl Free itself, it has an A+ rating from the BBB, but has a complaint at ripoffreport.com and there's some interesting bantering in this thread.

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Check into the Nature2 ionization system. No electricity, easy to install and maintain.

I had one on a aboveground pool for a while and the Nature2 killed the case of Athlete's Foot I had.....seriously!

Though Nature2 with MPS for spas would be a low-chlorine (use chlorine as needed, probably weekly) system for spas that is approved by the EPA as a disinfectant, this is not the case for pools. Metal ions do not kill quickly enough (even with MPS) in pools to be a disinfectant. That doesn't mean it's worthless, but if you had Athlete's Foot the fungus would have been killed in a properly chlorinated pool and wouldn't need Nature2 to do that. By "properly chlorinated", I don't mean just having some measurable Free Chlorine (FC) by itself, but also having the FC high enough relative to the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level.

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  • 3 years later...

I have an ECOsmarte pool system and very happy with it. I researched it for quite some time researching and talking to ECOsmarte pool owners I decided to just try it. I talked with many who have had their system for 10 years and longer and they say they are very happy with their system and love that their kids are not bathing in chlorine.

Copper was used in ancient days for killing viruses and bacteria and is being brought back to kill the superbugs in hospitals.

Internationally they are very well known and have some olympic pools using their system. The West Gate Hotel in San Diego just put in an ECOsmarte system in their roof top pool. There are many great testimonials to ECOsmarte systems.

There is alot of negativity it seems on the website about the system - I think a person shouldn't knock it until they have the correct facts.

I'm not adding extra chemicals, just keeping copper and ph in balance with system. I don't have any reactions any more from chlorine and the dry skin, dry hair, no smell of chlorine.

How can a person ignore that there are dangers of swimming in chlorine waters.

http://www.naturalnews.com/030622_chlorine_cancer.html

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/12/03/avoid-swimming-pools-if-you-have-allergies-or-asthma.aspx

http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/QAA361110/dangers-of-chlorine.html

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/chlorine/basics/facts.asp

this is only a few articles there is so much information about chlorine dangers and how its effecting peoples health.

BTW - ecosmarte doesn't run on silver.

If chlorine doesn't bother you - then great.

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Are you a shill? Is this spam? No commercial/public pool is allowed to use ECOsmarte without chlorine. Every state in the U.S. has regulations requiring an EPA approved disinfectant for commercial/public pools and ECOsmarte is not EPA approved as a swimming pool disinfectant since it does not pass EPA DSS/TSS-12. This is because copper ions do not kill bacteria quickly enough and in fact do not kill fecal bacteria at all. See this post for a list of kill times of chlorine vs. copper and silver ions.

Also, did you know that a properly balanced outdoor residential pool with a Free Chlorine (FC) level of around 7.5% of the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level has an active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) level equivalent to only 0.06 ppm FC with no CYA? CYA significantly moderates chlorine's strength.

What dangers of chlorine are you referring to? If you are referring to chlorinated disinfection by-products, their amount is roughly proportional to the bather load so in a residential pool this is negligible.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 6 months later...

[DISCLAIMER: I represent an ionizer manufacturer - after 10 years of raving customers, I believe in it 100%]

Ionizers work well, but they have their problems just like any sanitation solution.

i do believe that a properly set up ionizer with properly maintained water is healthier for both yourself and the environment.

Chlorine is indeed a toxic chemical. With an ionizer, you still need it, but at a much lower concentration. Some of our customers use ozone or potassium monopersulphate in place of chlorine and swear by it, though we do not recommend that.

Ionizers require a copper concentration of .2 to .4 ppm - this is lower than the amount allowed in drinking water.

Unlike salt systems (which generate chlorine), you can empty your ionized pool water into the public drainage system (or your garden) with no effects.

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Michael,

Apparently you are not aware of the chlorine / cyanuric acid relationship. With CYA in the water, the active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) level is already very low. The FC by itself means nothing except as a measure of the reserve of chlorine, NOT its strength. Also, most people let the chlorine level drop lower at the start of their soak. If it were 2 ppm FC with 30 ppm CYA at 104ºF, then this is equivalent to only 0.3 ppm FC with no CYA.

As for dumping water into the public drainage system, it is absolutely positively not true that there are no effects with the water from ionizer systems. The heavy metals of copper and silver are toxic to fish and unlike chlorine which can easily be dechlorinated that is not the case for the persistent metal ions.

Richard

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As for dumping water into the public drainage system, it is absolutely positively not true that there are no effects with the water from ionizer systems. The heavy metals of copper and silver are toxic to fish and unlike chlorine which can easily be dechlorinated that is not the case for the persistent metal ions.

Richard

 

Heavy metals are toxic metals like mercury and lead. You could consider copper as a 'heavy metal' if it is in high enough concentration. Rule of thumb for an ionizer is to keep the concentration of copper to within 0.2 to 0.4 ppm which is similar to what you would find in mineral water or tap water.

Maybe some ionizers let the copper level get to a toxic concentration, but I can't see how that's possible. You would have to have a huge electrode for that to happen before it wore down to nothing.

If your ionizer is wearing down the electrodes in a month, or you get staining. you might have a problem. Even then, I would be surprised if the copper level was toxic.

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See this paper where Table 1 lists many different studies with 50% kill of fish with copper concentrations from 0.067 to 2.6 mg/L. See this paper where "Sublethal effects to fish and the aquatic food chain can occur at less than 9 ppb Cu". Also "Many species of fresh water plants and animals die within 96 hours at waterborne concentrations of 5.0 to 9.8 ppb and sensitive species of mollusks, crustaceans and fish die at 0.23 to 0.91 ppb within 96 hr" Note that that is "ppb", not "ppm". Note Table 1 for normal copper concentrations in water that shows 1-7 ppb for uncontaminated waters (again, ppb not ppm). See also this document Tables 19-22.

So please stop spreading misinformation such as the normal levels of copper in water and toxicity levels to aquatic organisms including fish.

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See this paper where Table 1 lists many different studies with 50% kill of fish with copper concentrations from 0.067 to 2.6 mg/L. See this paper where "Sublethal effects to fish and the aquatic food chain can occur at less than 9 ppb Cu". Also "Many species of fresh water plants and animals die within 96 hours at waterborne concentrations of 5.0 to 9.8 ppb and sensitive species of mollusks, crustaceans and fish die at 0.23 to 0.91 ppb within 96 hr" Note that that is "ppb", not "ppm". Note Table 1 for normal copper concentrations in water that shows 1-7 ppb for uncontaminated waters (again, ppb not ppm). See also this document Tables 19-22..

 

Clearly you've put a lot more thought into this than I have :)

So with these statistics, how many 25,000 gallon pools would have to be emptied to reach these concentrations?

If I dump a 25,000 gallon pool into my garden, how much of the copper would actually reach a body of water with these animals?

I'm guessing you could probably dump thousands of pools a year and still not reach these Cu concentrations, even at ppb.

Do you have any studies on that?

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I'm not saying that one shouldn't use copper because of toxicity to fish in waterways. That risk should be low given typical water dilution rates. The point is that those that tout copper claim chlorine is toxic to the environment while completely ignoring the toxicity of copper. I'm just trying to balance things out with a dose of reality and facts, that's all.

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Yes, the higher salt levels are a problem in some areas since the salt is not removed in standard water treatment. However, only one community in the U.S. (Santa Clarita, CA) prohibits the use of saltwater chlorine generators (more specifically higher salt levels in swimming pools).

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