Hot Springs Energy Guaranty

[Tubber McGee]

I am real close to purchasing a tub and will buying either the Hot Springs Vanguard or Sovereign, BUT a recent post detailing peoples increase in their energy bill has me a little worried! Many people are stating that their energy bill has increased $50-$100-$150 per month. I want a hot tub but not for $5 per day just to use!

This site has saved me from buying a low end unit which I think is the issue here! but I still would like to hear some feedback!

HOT SPRINGS OWNERS - How much did your energy bill increase? They state an energy guaranty of $20-$30 max depending on climate and location! Have you found this to be a true statement?

Thanks

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I am real close to purchasing a tub and will buying either the Hot Springs Vanguard or Sovereign, BUT a recent post detailing peoples increase in their energy bill has me a little worried! Many people are stating that their energy bill has increased $50-$100-$150 per month. I want a hot tub but not for $5 per day just to use!

This site has saved me from buying a low end unit which I think is the issue here! but I still would like to hear some feedback!

HOT SPRINGS OWNERS - How much did your energy bill increase? They state an energy guaranty of $20-$30 max depending on climate and location! Have you found this to be a true statement?

Thanks

HS is very energy efficient and I don't think you'll find better in that regard but the other factor that makes quoting a figure tough is usage. If its being used most days you'll use more obviously than someone using it once/week or so either way you won't be at the triple digits that you can get with a poorly insulated spa.

[The Pup]

I am real close to purchasing a tub and will buying either the Hot Springs Vanguard or Sovereign, BUT a recent post detailing peoples increase in their energy bill has me a little worried! Many people are stating that their energy bill has increased $50-$100-$150 per month. I want a hot tub but not for $5 per day just to use!

This site has saved me from buying a low end unit which I think is the issue here! but I still would like to hear some feedback!

HOT SPRINGS OWNERS - How much did your energy bill increase? They state an energy guaranty of $20-$30 max depending on climate and location! Have you found this to be a true statement?

Thanks

My HS Sovereign runs me about $60 per month (at $0.20/kW) on average (100F water, 3-5 times use per week for 20-50 minutes each, ambient high desert average temps of 56F [winter] and 96F [summer] with mid 20F lows).

To be sure, it cost money to operate and maintain a spa...that is just the way it is. However, with the newer HS models you are considering, you are buying a highly thermal/energy efficient spa (you would be hard pressed to reduce energy costs in any significant or material way with regards to current traditional spa offerings).

Perhaps there are natural gas, solar heat or wind powered supplementary options to consider to try to get you off the grid...but I guess there is no free lunch with those either.

A luxury item like a spa does therapeutic wonders for relaxing my tired old body...it is well worth the price to me, it may be the same for you once you get used to the idea of the true ownership costs with respect to your discretionary budget.

[Mikey_in_NY]

I am real close to purchasing a tub and will buying either the Hot Springs Vanguard or Sovereign, BUT a recent post detailing peoples increase in their energy bill has me a little worried! Many people are stating that their energy bill has increased $50-$100-$150 per month. I want a hot tub but not for $5 per day just to use!

This site has saved me from buying a low end unit which I think is the issue here! but I still would like to hear some feedback!

HOT SPRINGS OWNERS - How much did your energy bill increase? They state an energy guaranty of $20-$30 max depending on climate and location! Have you found this to be a true statement?

Thanks

The statement "energy guaranty of $20-$30 max depending on climate and location" is very ambiguous to say the least. If you live in a cold winter climate - say between 0F and 30F and you never open the cover then just maybe you'll get away with $30, but assuming you're gonna use it a few times a week $60 per month could be what to expect. HS are well insulated tubs, but it doesn't matter how well insulated the shell is when the covers up - all that steam is your $ evaporating.

Cost is also very dependant upon where you live. Here in NY a KW costs $0.15, but in other states I believe a KW can be as cheap as $0.08, a difference approaching 100%!

[spisam]

I am real close to purchasing a tub and will buying either the Hot Springs Vanguard or Sovereign, BUT a recent post detailing peoples increase in their energy bill has me a little worried! Many people are stating that their energy bill has increased $50-$100-$150 per month. I want a hot tub but not for $5 per day just to use!

This site has saved me from buying a low end unit which I think is the issue here! but I still would like to hear some feedback!

HOT SPRINGS OWNERS - How much did your energy bill increase? They state an energy guaranty of $20-$30 max depending on climate and location! Have you found this to be a true statement?

Thanks

The statement "energy guaranty of $20-$30 max depending on climate and location" is very ambiguous to say the least. If you live in a cold winter climate - say between 0F and 30F and you never open the cover then just maybe you'll get away with $30, but assuming you're gonna use it a few times a week $60 per month could be what to expect. HS are well insulated tubs, but it doesn't matter how well insulated the shell is when the covers up - all that steam is your $ evaporating.

Cost is also very dependant upon where you live. Here in NY a KW costs $0.15, but in other states I believe a KW can be as cheap as $0.08, a difference approaching 100%!

I just purchased a Solana TX. The dealer told me to expect at most a $10/mo electric cost here in Delray Beach, Florida. The Hot Spring site actually has a chart where you can calculate the monthly energy cost to operate their spas.

[r5ran]

I am real close to purchasing a tub and will buying either the Hot Springs Vanguard or Sovereign, BUT a recent post detailing peoples increase in their energy bill has me a little worried! Many people are stating that their energy bill has increased $50-$100-$150 per month. I want a hot tub but not for $5 per day just to use!

This site has saved me from buying a low end unit which I think is the issue here! but I still would like to hear some feedback!

HOT SPRINGS OWNERS - How much did your energy bill increase? They state an energy guaranty of $20-$30 max depending on climate and location! Have you found this to be a true statement?

Thanks

Not sure where you are getting your numbers, but I have a 08 Vanguard that is used every night for 30-60 minutes, in an extremely cold climate, and my bills have been about $20-25 more per month in the winter months than before the tub.....and worth it...BTW- my electricity is relatively cheap, at .12 per KW, so that helps, too.

If you can afford the VG, go for it over the Sovereign....

Randy

[bart6453]

I am real close to purchasing a tub and will buying either the Hot Springs Vanguard or Sovereign, BUT a recent post detailing peoples increase in their energy bill has me a little worried! Many people are stating that their energy bill has increased $50-$100-$150 per month. I want a hot tub but not for $5 per day just to use!

This site has saved me from buying a low end unit which I think is the issue here! but I still would like to hear some feedback!

HOT SPRINGS OWNERS - How much did your energy bill increase? They state an energy guaranty of $20-$30 max depending on climate and location! Have you found this to be a true statement?

Thanks

Not sure where you are getting your numbers, but I have a 08 Vanguard that is used every night for 30-60 minutes, in an extremely cold climate, and my bills have been about $20-25 more per month in the winter months than before the tub.....and worth it...BTW- my electricity is relatively cheap, at .12 per KW, so that helps, too.

If you can afford the VG, go for it over the Sovereign....

Randy

I have a pretty well insulated Jacuzzi.....I just got my electric bill and it averaged $1.90 per day to run the tub. There was a 2 week period when it was -25F and we were using the tub 2-3 days a week.

I know it's not a HS but I can say it is using more energy than I am truly thrilled over...but what can you do?

I am getting electricity at about $.10 per KWH, my usage is up 19KWH per day. Our average temperature during my billing cycle was 15F.

Hope this helps a little.

[Mikey_in_NY]

I'm struggling to understand some of these low numbers here. I live in western NY where it's frequently below 15F. I leave my tub set at 101F. I'm in my tub every night for around 40 mins with the pumps on maybe 50% of the time, during which the temp drops around 2F depending upon how windy it is, with the heater kicking in, and staying on, for maybe the last 20 minutes, When I get out the heaters probably on for another 30 mins or so to get the water back above 101F. Again, none of this has anything to do with how well the tub is insulated - just heat loss due to surface cooling and evaporation.

So, assuming 50mins of heating with a 5.5KWH heater at $0.15 per KW, which equals $0.69 per day, and that totally excludes the power the pumps and ozonator uses, never mind the routine heating needed over 24 hours, as well as the 2 x 30 mins filtration cycles. I'm guessing but that's got to be more than $1.00 per day.

So how can anyone's electric bill for a hot tub in a cold climate be only $20 per month (or $0.67 per day) if they use their tub every day??? I don't get it. $20 per month in the winter @ $0.12 per kw equates to 167 kw which, with a 5.5 kw heater means the heater is only on for 30 hours in that month, or one hour per day? And that assumes NO electric usage from ozonator, pumps, lights, etc.

I must be missing something here?

[bart6453]

I'm struggling to understand some of these low numbers here. I live in western NY where it's frequently below 15F. I leave my tub set at 101F. I'm in my tub every night for around 40 mins with the pumps on maybe 50% of the time, during which the temp drops around 2F depending upon how windy it is, with the heater kicking in, and staying on, for maybe the last 20 minutes, When I get out the heaters probably on for another 30 mins or so to get the water back above 101F. Again, none of this has anything to do with how well the tub is insulated - just heat loss due to surface cooling and evaporation.

So, assuming 50mins of heating with a 5.5KWH heater at $0.15 per KW, which equals $0.69 per day, and that totally excludes the power the pumps and ozonator uses, never mind the routine heating needed over 24 hours, as well as the 2 x 30 mins filtration cycles. I'm guessing but that's got to be more than $1.00 per day.

So how can anyone's electric bill for a hot tub in a cold climate be only $20 per month (or $0.67 per day) if they use their tub every day??? I don't get it. $20 per month in the winter @ $0.12 per kw equates to 167 kw which, with a 5.5 kw heater means the heater is only on for 30 hours in that month, or one hour per day? And that assumes NO electric usage from ozonator, pumps, lights, etc.

I must be missing something here?

I took my info off of my Xcel energy bill that I got yesterday.

Some may be inclined to add hyperbole to their numbers.

I did build a garage at the same time we added the tub, but there is not much going on other than an occasional light here and there.

Other than that our energy usage should not have changed at all.

[ps558]

There other factors to look at besides the heat cycle. Most of the energy ratings I have read if they are even printed have a spa connected at 120 volts and use jet pump 3-6 times for 20 min. First off at 120 volts with jet pump on the heater can't heat= lower energy use. 120 volt heater will pull less amps = lower energy use. Now if the same spa is on a 220 volt the heater and the jet pump can run at the time= higher energy use. Take the energy guides with a grain of salt.

Other factors

Size of the heater 4kw 4.4 kw 5 kw 5.5 kw.

size of circ pump 35 watts 45 w 98 w

Hp of jet pumps 1.5 hp 2 hp 2.5hp 3hp and how many in the spa

Motor frame 48 vs 56. A 56 frame is larger and pulls less current so its cheaper to run. Also who made the motor. Marathon electric has the lowest energy use compare to AO Smith or Emerson od GE.

How many jet pumps are in the spa and what size. Some spa have the hp pumps some have 1 at one hp and second 1 at different hp

There is alot to look at for energy use and as a rule I estimate to the high side when talking to customers and if they don't ask I don't tell

[pkillur]

I am real close to purchasing a tub and will buying either the Hot Springs Vanguard or Sovereign, BUT a recent post detailing peoples increase in their energy bill has me a little worried! Many people are stating that their energy bill has increased $50-$100-$150 per month. I want a hot tub but not for $5 per day just to use!

This site has saved me from buying a low end unit which I think is the issue here! but I still would like to hear some feedback!

HOT SPRINGS OWNERS - How much did your energy bill increase? They state an energy guaranty of $20-$30 max depending on climate and location! Have you found this to be a true statement?

Thanks

I would think that you are not going to see a larger than $50 increase. I have a few year old WindRiver (They are built here in Colorado) and it's insulated about 85% as well as a Hotsprings (at least IMHO). I put it online literally the day my billing period started. Our Ambient temps from 20-dec-09 to 20-jan-10 ranged from -18 lows to 50 highs (2 days last week), and the bill increased about 82 Dollars. This increase includes the following:

Filling tub initially (42 degree water is what tub said, I think it was colder). Heating full tub to 102.

I had to superchlorinate it and decided to dump it because I got floaties in the water.

Fill again (This time it said 49 degrees), still getting crap in water, so did spa-flush after 2nd superchlorinate.

Dump water.

Fill again (Water @ 45 degrees I think). Heat to 102.

Leak @ drainpipe that I didn't notice for three days (temps hit -30 and the drain doesn't have a gate valve AND the tub had a nasty draft because of the way the wind blows and the fact that I didn't see two cracked boards - chanced 100 to 1. Fill appx 20% of water, dropping temps from 102 down to 83 and heat up again.

Total usages after water balancing issues were resolved was somewhere around total soaking time being around 7 hours spread through the 2.5 weeks after balancing issues resolved. The temps @ soak times varied from -7 to 30, the first week being the negatives and then staying at the mid teens and going up until weds of last week (I got the bill on friday).

Our bill went up 82 dollars, but at the same time, my kids left on an electric space heater in the basement on HIGH, and discovered that they REALLY LOVE lego batman on the Xbox and have played 36 hours of it on our projector (which is old and power hungry) AND it was really freaking cold so our heater was on about every 4 minutes, which means that the heater motor was also cooking.

So, all this said, if you're buying a new spa, I can't see it being more than 50 bucks on a really cold month. You might invest in a floating blanket to cut down on heat loss also. My hosehold appropriations committee has approved the procurement of one once the month kicks over and we shoehorn it into the budget.

[JerimiahR]

You should be pretty hard pressed to find a modern hot tub that costs $100 - $150 a month to operate. Even some of the cheap, poorly insulated spas shouldn't cost you quite that much unless your kW/hr costs are super expensive.

Here in Montana, we find that the Hot Spring spas do exceptionally well in our climate. We actually have a printed energy guarantee that our company gives to customers who request it. Ultimately, our energy guarantee is based on three things: Our climate (average temperatures), actual kW/hr charges for power, and a history of putting electric meters on our spas at customer's homes.

Most Hot Spring models we'd guarantee an average of less than $22 a month (based on $0.088891per kWh). The largest models will average less than $30 a month. We assume they're installed outdoors, set to 102F, and are used 6 days a week (30 min total, 15 jets on, 15 jets off).

As far as their actual power bills changing, let's keep in mind your power bill changes EVERY MONTH. It's extremely difficult to judge any spa's power use purely by your electric bill. Washers, dryers, blow dryers, televisions, microwaves, stove tops, ovens, hot water heaters, furnace, lights, treadmills, etc etc... you don't use them all for the exact same amounts of time every month, and generally your kW/hr rates vary from month to month anyhow. So your electric bill is definitely not a solid figure to begin with.

Granted I'm a Hot Spring dealer, so you may choose to take my words with a grain of salt. But I can confidently tell you from experience, that regardless of your climate, Hot Spring is not going to disappoint you on the energy efficiency end of things.

[seabright_sc]

You should be pretty hard pressed to find a modern hot tub that costs $100 - $150 a month to operate. Even some of the cheap, poorly insulated spas shouldn't cost you quite that much unless your kW/hr costs are super expensive.

Here in Montana, we find that the Hot Spring spas do exceptionally well in our climate. We actually have a printed energy guarantee that our company gives to customers who request it. Ultimately, our energy guarantee is based on three things: Our climate (average temperatures), actual kW/hr charges for power, and a history of putting electric meters on our spas at customer's homes.

Most Hot Spring models we'd guarantee an average of less than $22 a month (based on $0.088891per kWh). The largest models will average less than $30 a month. We assume they're installed outdoors, set to 102F, and are used 6 days a week (30 min total, 15 jets on, 15 jets off).

As far as their actual power bills changing, let's keep in mind your power bill changes EVERY MONTH. It's extremely difficult to judge any spa's power use purely by your electric bill. Washers, dryers, blow dryers, televisions, microwaves, stove tops, ovens, hot water heaters, furnace, lights, treadmills, etc etc... you don't use them all for the exact same amounts of time every month, and generally your kW/hr rates vary from month to month anyhow. So your electric bill is definitely not a solid figure to begin with.

Granted I'm a Hot Spring dealer, so you may choose to take my words with a grain of salt. But I can confidently tell you from experience, that regardless of your climate, Hot Spring is not going to disappoint you on the energy efficiency end of things.

Here's a question for hotspring dealers/techs or those in the know.... Are older hotsprins (circa 1990s) as effeciaent as the new ones? I know that the older ones have fewer jets and pumps with less horse power and I wonder if this equates to less energy use than the newer models?

Does the full foam insulation tend to keep it's insulating value over time, or does it degrade?

I've been wondering if my older Prodigy (1996) is going to be as efficient as a newer model.

[InHotH20]

I'm in SoCal, and our cold weather is 50s in the day, upper 40s at night. Nonetheless, I was anxious to see what my first full month electric bill would be following installation of a HS Grandee. Since the tub is new, we use it a lot... often twice a day for over 30 minutes a time. The jets might be on about half that time. Anyway, my electric bill indicated that the Kw usage was identical last month to the month one year previous. Further, electrical usage this year was actually less than my usage 2 years ago. Suffice it to say I am very happy with the efficiency of HS.

BTW, Jerimiah mentioned that he'd be hard pressed to find a modern tub that costs over $100 a month to operate. Not true. A neighbor that has had their small tub for over a year has an electrical bill in excess of $100 more each month following the installation of their tub. Funny thing is, they still tried talking me into "saving money" by going with their local "we build the same for less" spa maker!

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Here's a question for hotspring dealers/techs or those in the know.... Are older hotsprins (circa 1990s) as effeciaent as the new ones? I know that the older ones have fewer jets and pumps with less horse power and I wonder if this equates to less energy use than the newer models?

Does the full foam insulation tend to keep it's insulating value over time, or does it degrade?

I've been wondering if my older Prodigy (1996) is going to be as efficient as a newer model.

A current Hot Spring spa does well by keeping the equipment compartment small (so the front corners get insulated), recirculating the hot pump exhausted air into the jets and using a multi-density foam process (as opposed to filling with only ½# foam). I'm not sure about the pump exhaust for a '96 but otherwise I'd expect yours to do about as well and in fact back then they had less jets/HP so overall yours might do better than a new one.

[Mikey_in_NY]

Most Hot Spring models we'd guarantee an average of less than $22 a month (based on $0.088891per kWh). The largest models will average less than $30 a month. We assume they're installed outdoors, set to 102F, and are used 6 days a week (30 min total, 15 jets on, 15 jets off).

At a rate of only $0.088891 per kWh then yes, I'd agree $22 per month average sounds reasonable. Wish I paid that sort of rate as here in NY it's over $0.15 per kWh, meaning a Colorado $22 bill is around $40 here.

Also, when you say "average" is that an average increase for any customer during the winter months, or an average bill over a 12 month period - i.e. lower in the summer, and higher in the winter?

[Peteyboy]

I am real close to purchasing a tub and will buying either the Hot Springs Vanguard or Sovereign, BUT a recent post detailing peoples increase in their energy bill has me a little worried! Many people are stating that their energy bill has increased $50-$100-$150 per month. I want a hot tub but not for $5 per day just to use!

This site has saved me from buying a low end unit which I think is the issue here! but I still would like to hear some feedback!

HOT SPRINGS OWNERS - How much did your energy bill increase? They state an energy guaranty of $20-$30 max depending on climate and location! Have you found this to be a true statement?

Thanks

My HS Sovereign runs me about $60 per month (at $0.20/kW) on average (100F water, 3-5 times use per week for 20-50 minutes each, ambient high desert average temps of 56F [winter] and 96F [summer] with mid 20F lows).

To be sure, it cost money to operate and maintain a spa...that is just the way it is. However, with the newer HS models you are considering, you are buying a highly thermal/energy efficient spa (you would be hard pressed to reduce energy costs in any significant or material way with regards to current traditional spa offerings).

Perhaps there are natural gas, solar heat or wind powered supplementary options to consider to try to get you off the grid...but I guess there is no free lunch with those either.

A luxury item like a spa does therapeutic wonders for relaxing my tired old body...it is well worth the price to me, it may be the same for you once you get used to the idea of the true ownership costs with respect to your discretionary budget.

Wow. Are you kidding on the $60? I've never seen a HotSpring run near that much per month. I've had a '91 Classic in cold & hot climates and never seen anything more than $20 per month.

[The Pup]

Wow. Are you kidding on the $60? I've never seen a HotSpring run near that much per month. I've had a '91 Classic in cold & hot climates and never seen anything more than $20 per month.

We should only compare monthly spa cost in relation to a given energy cost.

With respect to my average SoCal tiered energy rates...your spa averages only 3.33kW per day energy use throughout the year...which is very good indeed.

Note: Our other home's 420 gallon spa ranges from $19-to-$45 throughout the year with basically the same climate, use and rates.

Regarding the HS, it does not vary much throughout the year and I think the $60.00/month energy bill for SoCal is well within reason.

However, someone recently posted that one HS spa uses a 24/7 circulation pump drawing only 50W (I have a friend who has a Grandee that draws around 250W). If I understand correctly, at my energy rates, that 50W spa only cost about $8/month before any additional non-circ-pump heating (if needed) or higher horsepower therapeutic jet action takes place. If someone is attributing their HS spa to a $100 or $150 monthly energy cost spike, either they are paying a higher energy use rate, reside at the North Pole, not truly observing the spa's isolated energy use, or there is something wrong with the spa (drawing too much current).

[The Pup]

Here's what the Hot Spring web site states it should cost to run a HS Sovereign (115VAC circuit): http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_...efficiency.html

The average monthly cost* to operate a Hot Spring spa in a 55F average climate (similar to St. Louis, MO) at a rate of 20¢/per kilowatt hour would be: $ 38.40

Remember, your actual cost will vary based upon the model you select and your usage pattern.

* Based on a 115 volt Sovereign® spa set at 102°F used 6 times per week; 15 minutes with the jets on, 15 minutes with the jets off during each use. Testing conducted in a Controlled Environment Chamber using continuous Data Acquisition monitoring equipment including Continuous Progression Kilowatt Recording meters, Voltage Measurement probes, Current Measurement probes, Relative Humidity Chamber Measurement probes and Thermocouple probes.

We keep our HS (230VAC circuit) spa at 100F, but use the spa for up to 50 minutes 3-5 times per week with about twice the jet run time. Our climate is drier than St Louis, but equivalent in average temperature (56F, but cooler at night during the spring, summer and fall seasons).