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Point Return Jets @ 45° Angle?


Gavin

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I heard on youtube that pointing the jets down at a 45° angle is better for circulation. Is this right? I have one pointed down and one pointed up. I thought having one pointed to the surface helped move leaves towards the skimmer?

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I heard on youtube that pointing the jets down at a 45° angle is better for circulation. Is this right? I have one pointed down and one pointed up. I thought having one pointed to the surface helped move leaves towards the skimmer?

Down and on a angle is best for water circulation. It helps with not creating dead spots were algae can bloom. If you get them postioned correct you notice none or very little water movement when looking at the pool. pointing them up does nothing for proper water circulation

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I heard on youtube that pointing the jets down at a 45° angle is better for circulation. Is this right? I have one pointed down and one pointed up. I thought having one pointed to the surface helped move leaves towards the skimmer?

Down and on a angle is best for water circulation. It helps with not creating dead spots were algae can bloom. If you get them postioned correct you notice none or very little water movement when looking at the pool. pointing them up does nothing for proper water circulation

oh ok cool thanks. I will adjust both down. Thanks! B)

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I heard on youtube that pointing the jets down at a 45° angle is better for circulation. Is this right? I have one pointed down and one pointed up. I thought having one pointed to the surface helped move leaves towards the skimmer?

Down and on a angle is best for water circulation. It helps with not creating dead spots were algae can bloom. If you get them postioned correct you notice none or very little water movement when looking at the pool. pointing them up does nothing for proper water circulation

if I have two jets on one wall should I point one down to the left and the other down to the right?

I read somewhere to point the left one down to the left and the one on the right up and to the left to create a sort of whirlpool effect.

which is better?

Thanks.

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Actually, i point them up. Just enough to slightly break the water. And point them either at the skimmer, or at a dead spot on the surface of the water, to help floating debris make their way to the skimmer.

now I'm really confused. :huh: :huh: :wacko:

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As for circulation, it partly depends on whether or not you have a floor drain. If you've got an above-ground pool (which typically doesn't have a floor drain) and only have one return with a round pool, then point it down and to one side. This will tend to circulate the water near the bottom and rotate it as well (somewhat) which moves the surface a bit. If you've got more than one return, you usually point them to produce a circular motion -- with a rectangular pool with multiple returns, they normally point straight out (or down in the deep end, if no floor drain) as that directs water along the wall to the other side. With floor drains, the returns can be pointed straight out or perhaps slightly upwards for the greater skimming effect. Lots of options here depending on configuration.

An interesting approach is when the return and skimmer are on the same wall and there is no floor drain. In that case, you point downwards for a rolling effect. This is described in this blog post.

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As for circulation, it partly depends on whether or not you have a floor drain. If you've got an above-ground pool (which typically doesn't have a floor drain) and only have one return with a round pool, then point it down and to one side. This will tend to circulate the water near the bottom and rotate it as well (somewhat) which moves the surface a bit. If you've got more than one return, you usually point them to produce a circular motion -- with a rectangular pool with multiple returns, they normally point straight out (or down in the deep end, if no floor drain) as that directs water along the wall to the other side. With floor drains, the returns can be pointed straight out or perhaps slightly upwards for the greater skimming effect. Lots of options here depending on configuration.

An interesting approach is when the return and skimmer are on the same wall and there is no floor drain. In that case, you point downwards for a rolling effect. This is described in this blog post.

Thanks Chem. B)

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Richard, that link makes you become a member to read the blog.

Never really understood you guys with the circulation theory. I have visited pools that have only 2 (3/4" over under) non-directional returns, and i can't tell the difference, clarity wise between it and a fancy new pool with 3, 1 1/2 returns. They both run the same time and both have crystal clear water. The advantage to the returns with eyeballs IMO have been to help with the skimming of debris on the surface!

I'll agree that in the summer, that could result in some heat loss, but as noted above I'm not suggesting that you point them up at a 45 and create a Bellagio effect, just enough to see the water migrate. If you get too much heat loss, then turn them down. Probably not as much debris in the summer time anyway.

The time difference between proper mixing of chems in both the pools i think is negligible. I don't see a need "quicker" mixing, unless the pool guy has let the pool get dangerously out of wack.

I suggest to Gavin that he try it both ways, and see what works best for him. I don't think the experiment will cost him anything extra but time.

OK guys...let me have it!

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Richard, that link makes you become a member to read the blog.

Never really understood you guys with the circulation theory. I have visited pools that have only 2 (3/4" over under) non-directional returns, and i can't tell the difference, clarity wise between it and a fancy new pool with 3, 1 1/2 returns. They both run the same time and both have crystal clear water. The advantage to the returns with eyeballs IMO have been to help with the skimming of debris on the surface!

I'll agree that in the summer, that could result in some heat loss, but as noted above I'm not suggesting that you point them up at a 45 and create a Bellagio effect, just enough to see the water migrate. If you get too much heat loss, then turn them down. Probably not as much debris in the summer time anyway.

The time difference between proper mixing of chems in both the pools i think is negligible. I don't see a need "quicker" mixing, unless the pool guy has let the pool get dangerously out of wack.

I suggest to Gavin that he try it both ways, and see what works best for him. I don't think the experiment will cost him anything extra but time.

OK guys...let me have it!

yes I agree it seems like the jets can be directed where you think is useful and really is not too critical to keeping the pool crystal clear. My pH got low so I directed all the jets up and presto pH went up. :D

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Gavin,

Well, pointing the jets up so that the surface of the water is disturbed increases aeration (air-water contact; more surface area and air/water movement including mixing of water to replenish TA and pH near the surface) which increases carbon dioxide outgassing which makes the pH rise. No mystery there. In fact, for the Lower Total Alkalinity procedure I often tell people to point their returns upwards with the pump on high as a way to increase aeration and speed up the TA lowering process.

Pool Clown,

Sorry about the link -- I didn't realize you have to become a member (I am one, but didn't know the content wasn't visible otherwise).

I've tested the circulation in my own pool through both dye tests and chlorine readings at different locations and depths so my pool isn't a good example since the circulation seems to be outstanding. I do know, however, that there are quite a few round above-ground pools with no floor drain that have absolutely terrible circulation near the bottom unless the returns are pointed at least somewhat downwards. Such pools with returns/inlets (by the way, which is the truly proper term?) not pointed downwards often have algae problems unless they maintain higher-than-normal chlorine levels. So circulation in these more extreme circumstances clearly makes a difference. As for other types of pools, I would agree that it may not make that much of a difference, but that's just a hunch on my part.

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I do know, however, that there are quite a few round above-ground pools with no floor drain that have absolutely terrible circulation near the bottom unless the returns are pointed at least somewhat downwards. Such pools with returns/inlets (by the way, which is the truly proper term?) not pointed downwards often have algae problems unless they maintain higher-than-normal chlorine levels. So circulation in these more extreme circumstances clearly makes a difference.

Interesting... I set a buddy up with a 4x160 on his 18' round, no drain pool with one 2" return about half way down pointed horizontal to make it whirlpool. Turned the pump down to still be able to pump up 10 feet to the solar. Ran it 16 hours a day, 25% on the A/P and aside from the occasional dinge after heavy swim, we couldn't get it to green up all summer. I think low speed, and long hours was/is the key.

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Richard, that link makes you become a member to read the blog.

Never really understood you guys with the circulation theory. I have visited pools that have only 2 (3/4" over under) non-directional returns, and i can't tell the difference, clarity wise between it and a fancy new pool with 3, 1 1/2 returns. They both run the same time and both have crystal clear water. The advantage to the returns with eyeballs IMO have been to help with the skimming of debris on the surface!

I'll agree that in the summer, that could result in some heat loss, but as noted above I'm not suggesting that you point them up at a 45 and create a Bellagio effect, just enough to see the water migrate. If you get too much heat loss, then turn them down. Probably not as much debris in the summer time anyway.

The time difference between proper mixing of chems in both the pools i think is negligible. I don't see a need "quicker" mixing, unless the pool guy has let the pool get dangerously out of wack.

I suggest to Gavin that he try it both ways, and see what works best for him. I don't think the experiment will cost him anything extra but time.

OK guys...let me have it!

yes I agree it seems like the jets can be directed where you think is useful and really is not too critical to keeping the pool crystal clear. My pH got low so I directed all the jets up and presto pH went up. :D

what if you added a little borax and pointed the jets up. I told a friend of mine to do that and his pH went from 6.8 to 7.4 and his TA went from 30 to 160 all in just 24hrs time. why did this seem to work for the TA as well? btw his CYA was through the roof..like 150. he has a small 7,000 gal fiberglass pool.

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Richard, that link makes you become a member to read the blog.

Never really understood you guys with the circulation theory. I have visited pools that have only 2 (3/4" over under) non-directional returns, and i can't tell the difference, clarity wise between it and a fancy new pool with 3, 1 1/2 returns. They both run the same time and both have crystal clear water. The advantage to the returns with eyeballs IMO have been to help with the skimming of debris on the surface!

I'll agree that in the summer, that could result in some heat loss, but as noted above I'm not suggesting that you point them up at a 45 and create a Bellagio effect, just enough to see the water migrate. If you get too much heat loss, then turn them down. Probably not as much debris in the summer time anyway.

The time difference between proper mixing of chems in both the pools i think is negligible. I don't see a need "quicker" mixing, unless the pool guy has let the pool get dangerously out of wack.

I suggest to Gavin that he try it both ways, and see what works best for him. I don't think the experiment will cost him anything extra but time.

OK guys...let me have it!

yes I agree it seems like the jets can be directed where you think is useful and really is not too critical to keeping the pool crystal clear. My pH got low so I directed all the jets up and presto pH went up. :D

what if you added a little borax and pointed the jets up. I told a friend of mine to do that and his pH went from 6.8 to 7.4 and his TA went from 30 to 160 all in just 24hrs time. why did this seem to work for the TA as well? btw his CYA was through the roof..like 150. he has a small 7,000 gal fiberglass pool.

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Richard, that link makes you become a member to read the blog.

Never really understood you guys with the circulation theory. I have visited pools that have only 2 (3/4" over under) non-directional returns, and i can't tell the difference, clarity wise between it and a fancy new pool with 3, 1 1/2 returns. They both run the same time and both have crystal clear water. The advantage to the returns with eyeballs IMO have been to help with the skimming of debris on the surface!

I'll agree that in the summer, that could result in some heat loss, but as noted above I'm not suggesting that you point them up at a 45 and create a Bellagio effect, just enough to see the water migrate. If you get too much heat loss, then turn them down. Probably not as much debris in the summer time anyway.

The time difference between proper mixing of chems in both the pools i think is negligible. I don't see a need "quicker" mixing, unless the pool guy has let the pool get dangerously out of wack.

I suggest to Gavin that he try it both ways, and see what works best for him. I don't think the experiment will cost him anything extra but time.

OK guys...let me have it!

yes I agree it seems like the jets can be directed where you think is useful and really is not too critical to keeping the pool crystal clear. My pH got low so I directed all the jets up and presto pH went up. :D

what if you added a little borax and pointed the jets up. I told a friend of mine to do that and his pH went from 6.8 to 7.4 and his TA went from 30 to 160 all in just 24hrs time. why did this seem to work for the TA as well? btw his CYA was through the roof..like 150. he has a small 7,000 gal fiberglass pool.

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Pool Clown,

Maybe the return being about halfway down also helped. I seem to recall that the returns weren't very low from the surface in the AGPs that had the problems. Or it could be the long hours and whirlpool action as you said.

Gavin,

Borax is a base so will raise both pH and TA, but will raise the TA by half as much as pH Up product (sodium carbonate; aka Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda). Going from a pH of 6.8 to 7.4 even if the rise came only from the Borax would only raise the TA from 30 to 40, but I suspect that the measurements of TA were incorrect or maybe the pH was actually lower than 6.8 since some pH tests only measure down to that level. I can get the numbers you describe just by adding Borax if the initial pH was 5.7. However, that would take a LOT of Borax -- almost 9 boxes of 20 Mule Team Borax -- and would result in 56 ppm Borates in the pool.

Richard

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Pool Clown,

Maybe the return being about halfway down also helped. I seem to recall that the returns weren't very low from the surface in the AGPs that had the problems. Or it could be the long hours and whirlpool action as you said.

Gavin,

Borax is a base so will raise both pH and TA, but will raise the TA by half as much as pH Up product (sodium carbonate; aka Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda). Going from a pH of 6.8 to 7.4 even if the rise came only from the Borax would only raise the TA from 30 to 40, but I suspect that the measurements of TA were incorrect or maybe the pH was actually lower than 6.8 since some pH tests only measure down to that level. I can get the numbers you describe just by adding Borax if the initial pH was 5.7. However, that would take a LOT of Borax -- almost 9 boxes of 20 Mule Team Borax -- and would result in 56 ppm Borates in the pool.

Richard

I tested it. its a very small pool. might even be smaller than 7,000. pH might well have been lower than 6.8 my test only goes down to 7.0

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I tested it. its a very small pool. might even be smaller than 7,000. pH might well have been lower than 6.8 my test only goes down to 7.0

I forgot to say that 9 boxes of Borax was for 10,000 gallons. So it would still have needed 6 boxes of Borax in 7000 gallons to reproduce what you described -- still a lot. With more normal pH moves, one doesn't see too much change in TA when using Borax, though going from 7.0 to 7.5 starting with a TA of 80 would increase TA by 10-20 ppm depending on CYA level (CYA acts as an additional pH buffer where higher CYA levels require more acid or base to move pH). If one were to use pH Up instead, the TA move in this same scenario would be 20-40 ppm. The lower number of the range is with at CYA of 30 ppm; the higher with a CYA of 150 ppm.

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I tested it. its a very small pool. might even be smaller than 7,000. pH might well have been lower than 6.8 my test only goes down to 7.0

I forgot to say that 9 boxes of Borax was for 10,000 gallons. So it would still have needed 6 boxes of Borax in 7000 gallons to reproduce what you described -- still a lot. With more normal pH moves, one doesn't see too much change in TA when using Borax, though going from 7.0 to 7.5 starting with a TA of 80 would increase TA by 10-20 ppm depending on CYA level (CYA acts as an additional pH buffer where higher CYA levels require more acid or base to move pH). If one were to use pH Up instead, the TA move in this same scenario would be 20-40 ppm. The lower number of the range is with at CYA of 30 ppm; the higher with a CYA of 150 ppm.

we get the 4lb boxes of borax. I think about 1lb was used. maybe tested TA wrong the first time...but pH was low and its 7.4 now which is much better. so if TA or should I say actual Alkalinity (TA - CYA Alkalinty) is high the pH will increase faster and when the actual Alkalinity is low the pH can be decreased faster and its harder to increase the pH when alkalinity is low? do I have this right?

Thanks

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we get the 4lb boxes of borax. I think about 1lb was used. maybe tested TA wrong the first time...but pH was low and its 7.4 now which is much better. so if TA or should I say actual Alkalinity (TA - CYA Alkalinty) is high the pH will increase faster and when the actual Alkalinity is low the pH can be decreased faster and its harder to increase the pH when alkalinity is low? do I have this right?

20 Mule Team Borax is normally 76 ounces weight, so 4.75 pounds.

Yes, if the carbonate alkalinity (TA adjusted for CYA -- roughly subtracting 1/3rd of the CYA if the pH is near 7.5) is high, then the pH will tend to rise unless you are using a very acidic source of chlorine such as Trichlor. If the TA is low, then the pH is more stable when using hypochlorite sources of chlorine, but will tend to drop if using Trichlor. When the TA is lower, it takes less acid to move the pH IN EITHER DIRECTION, up or down. When the TA is higher, it takes more acid to move the pH in either direction, up or down.

Even though a higher TA makes the pH more stable with respect to chemical additions (such as acid or Trichlor), it is a SOURCE of rising pH all on its own due to faster carbon dioxide outgassing.

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we get the 4lb boxes of borax. I think about 1lb was used. maybe tested TA wrong the first time...but pH was low and its 7.4 now which is much better. so if TA or should I say actual Alkalinity (TA - CYA Alkalinty) is high the pH will increase faster and when the actual Alkalinity is low the pH can be decreased faster and its harder to increase the pH when alkalinity is low? do I have this right?

20 Mule Team Borax is normally 76 ounces weight, so 4.75 pounds.

Yes, if the carbonate alkalinity (TA adjusted for CYA -- roughly subtracting 1/3rd of the CYA if the pH is near 7.5) is high, then the pH will tend to rise unless you are using a very acidic source of chlorine such as Trichlor. If the TA is low, then the pH is more stable when using hypochlorite sources of chlorine, but will tend to drop if using Trichlor. When the TA is lower, it takes less acid to move the pH IN EITHER DIRECTION, up or down. When the TA is higher, it takes more acid to move the pH in either direction, up or down.

Even though a higher TA makes the pH more stable with respect to chemical additions (such as acid or Trichlor), it is a SOURCE of rising pH all on its own due to faster carbon dioxide outgassing.

wow so its all really connected. so baking soda and borax effects both pH and TA...kinda the same thing however one or the other will effect ph or TA more than the other will. kinda seeing the picture now. Thanks. B)

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Borax is a base so not that dissimilar to lye where either one will raise the pH (mostly) and the TA (some). Baking soda is somewhat close to neutral pH so it mostly just increases TA with little change in pH -- it partly depends on how you add it since the high local TA can outgas causing the pH to rise. pH Up (sodium carbonate; Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda) is technically identical to a combination of baking soda and lye which is why it raises both pH and TA but raises TA by twice as much as Borax or lye alone.

With acids and bases, they move pH and TA together. With carbon dioxide outgassing or injection, it moves the pH only with no change in TA. Though baking soda can increase TA with little change in pH, I know of nothing that can lower TA directly without affecting pH -- instead, that is done through a combination of acid addition and aeration of the water (i.e. carbon dioxide outgassing) which nets out to a decrease in TA without changing the pH.

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Borax is a base so not that dissimilar to lye where either one will raise the pH (mostly) and the TA (some). Baking soda is somewhat close to neutral pH so it mostly just increases TA with little change in pH -- it partly depends on how you add it since the high local TA can outgas causing the pH to rise. pH Up (sodium carbonate; Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda) is technically identical to a combination of baking soda and lye which is why it raises both pH and TA but raises TA by twice as much as Borax or lye alone.

With acids and bases, they move pH and TA together. With carbon dioxide outgassing or injection, it moves the pH only with no change in TA. Though baking soda can increase TA with little change in pH, I know of nothing that can lower TA directly without affecting pH -- instead, that is done through a combination of acid addition and aeration of the water (i.e. carbon dioxide outgassing) which nets out to a decrease in TA without changing the pH.

Thanks I think I'm seeing how it all works now. Hmm so if my TA is 50ppm and my pH below 7.0 it would be better to use Borax instead of baking soda?

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Thanks I think I'm seeing how it all works now. Hmm so if my TA is 50ppm and my pH below 7.0 it would be better to use Borax instead of baking soda?

If you mostly want to raise the pH without changing the TA very much, then definitely do not use baking soda and use Borax instead. If you wanted the pH to rise with no change in TA at all, then aerate the water (run the jets) though the pH rise will be slow since the TA is so low.

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Thanks I think I'm seeing how it all works now. Hmm so if my TA is 50ppm and my pH below 7.0 it would be better to use Borax instead of baking soda?

If you mostly want to raise the pH without changing the TA very much, then definitely do not use baking soda and use Borax instead. If you wanted the pH to rise with no change in TA at all, then aerate the water (run the jets) though the pH rise will be slow since the TA is so low.

Thanks so maybe I should raise the TA first so that I don't have to use so much Borax to raise the pH?

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