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Just Swithched To Nature2


markley

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OK, so I have been driving myself nuts for hours researching Nature 2 on this forum. Wow, there is a ton of useful info, but i think that I am now overwhelmed. So I emptied my hot tub and refilled with fresh water, added some calcium increaser, added ph increaser (as it was low, although it now reads high?? above the range of the test strip), and added alkalinity increaser to get in range (now about 150). Then I inserted the Nature2 cartridge and added 1 tbsp of Spa56 (chlorinating granules; to activate cartridge). Now I am just waiting for the tub to get up to temperature.

I am now just curious as to what Nature2 users are doing on a routine basis. The dealers suggested using a tbsp of non-chlorine shock after each use and 1 tbsp of the Spa56 chorinating granules once a week. Is this sufficient? I realize that I won't know for sure until everything is balanced, but just wanted to see what others are doing. Thanks for any tips/suggestions?

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There are essentially three basic programs with Nature2: 1) the low-chlorine recipe that uses mostly non-chlorine shock (MPS) with occasional chlorine for an as-needed shock (usually every 1-2 weeks), 2) Dichlor-then-bleach, 3) Dichlor-only. The Dichlor-only method builds up Cyanuric Acid (CYA) over time making the chlorine less effective so requires a water change more frequently and can have the spa be less sanitary after a few weeks possibly leading to an increase in hot tub itch/rash/lung incidents. The Dichlor-then-bleach method is designed to prevent this, but requires more care in controlling pH by having a lower Total Alkalinity (TA) level and using 50 ppm Borates. The low-chlorine recipe is more expensive but is close to halogen-free, though some people get irritated by MPS (though this is less of a problem when used with Nature2).

As for how much oxidizer to use, the rough rule-of-thumb is that every person-hour of soaking in a hot (100-104F) tub requires around 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor or 5 fluid ounces of 6% bleach or 7 teaspoons (2-1/3 tablespoons) of non-chlorine shock (43% MPS). 1 tablespoon of MPS after each soak would handle around 25 person-minutes of soaking, so probably one person soaking for 20-30 minutes. A higher load with more people or longer soaking would probably need more MPS. There are MPS test strips for that system that you use to maintain an MPS level as described in the manual (see below).

The Dichlor-then-bleach method is described here while the Nature2 low-chlorine recipe is described in their owner's manual.

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Well time for me to voice in here. I am using N2 with the dichlor/bleach method with good success. I was one of those people with the sensitivity to MPS and had to give that up. Now I use a low-chlorine recipe using bleach. Built CYA to about 30ppm with dichlor then switched. I have a 330 gallon tub and on average get about 20 minutes of soak per night. I usually add 2 ounces of bleach, which raises my Cl by 3ppm. This leaves anywhere from 0.5 to 2ppm for my next soak.(2tsp of Dichlor raises it by 4ppm during that part of the process) CC has been negligible, I believe due to maintaining a constant Cl level. Will shock with up to 6 oz. of bleach if and when neccessary. Added ~40ppm of borates, but still not sure of the real affect of that addition. Will monitor CYA in case there is a drop as suggested there may be on a monthly basis. TA is around 70 and maintains 7.5-7.7 Ph. Will also adjust Ph as necessary with Muriatic Acid due to any rise from the bleach. All this being said, water looks great since last change, dry intensely itchy skin seems to be resolved and really, this is very easy to maintain.

Forgot to mention, the tub does have an ozonator running on the 24/7 circulation pump.

Ken

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...added ph increaser (as it was low, although it now reads high?? above the range of the test strip), and added alkalinity increaser to get in range (now about 150).

You should generally avoid adding pH increaser. The best way to adjust your pH is to adjust your alkalinity to the point where it keeps your pH stable.

I think that you will find an alkalinity of 150 to be too high. Most people get a stable pH with an alkalinity of about 80 ppm while using dichlor and about 60 ppm when using bleach.

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I also use Nature2 with the dichlor-then-bleach method. I am on the 6th month of my current fill and my water is clear and odorless. I replaced the Nature2 cartridge after 4 months as directed and because I did notice an increase in chlorine demand. The CD came down with the new cartridge installed. I use chem geek's rule-of-thumb of adding 5 fl oz of 6% bleach (Clorox Regular) per person-hour of soaking. I occasionally substitute SeaKlear Chlorine-Free Shock (45.2% MPS) for some of the bleach. The MPS is slightly acidic and counteracts the pH rise that normally is seen with the dichlor-then-bleach method. This allows me to keep my pH and TA on target without adding additional balancing chems. My pH has been between 7.4 and 7.6 and TA between 70 and 80 for the last 2 months with this method plus the addition of 1 tbsp sodium carbonate. We maintain 25-30 ppm CYA (with dichlor) and 50 ppm borates (with boric acid). Our tub has an ozonator and a 24/7 circulation pump. We have averaged 40 to 45 minutes soaking per day for the last 5 months.

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Thanks all for the replies! I have to admit that I am new to this. So what are you all using to measure CYA? Also, it seems that a majority of the people use the dichlor-bleach method. I think I may try the MPS method with occasional chorine at first and see how things go. Also, will my pH go down or do I have to lower it somehow?

Thanks again

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Thanks all for the replies! I have to admit that I am new to this. So what are you all using to measure CYA? Also, it seems that a majority of the people use the dichlor-bleach method. I think I may try the MPS method with occasional chorine at first and see how things go. Also, will my pH go down or do I have to lower it somehow?

Thanks again

A good Taylor test kit is a must (K2006) it has the CYA test in it. The MPS method seems very viable, I just had a sensitivity to the MPS. Yes MPS will drive your Ph down, so you want to monitor it and even keep your TA higher to stabilize it. Use regular baking soda for that.

Oh one more thing. Where do I get dichlor and boric acid?

Dichlor is the chlorinating granules you already have. The borates can either be in the form of ProTeam's Gentle Spa, available online or at spa shop, or borax (20 Mule Team) or boric acid, not sure where the experts recommend getting it.

Ken

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Thanks Ken! One more thing (maybe the last), i notice that my chlorine levels are high (at least 10 based on test strip; i will order the taylor kit today). Is this a function of the intial shock? and will it go down? if so, how long will it take?

Yes it will go down and it is from the intial shock. Just a word of caution again, the test strips are not very accurate.

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Thanks all for the replies! I have to admit that I am new to this. So what are you all using to measure CYA? Also, it seems that a majority of the people use the dichlor-bleach method. I think I may try the MPS method with occasional chorine at first and see how things go. Also, will my pH go down or do I have to lower it somehow?

Thanks again

I use the Taylor K-2006 test kit. The best price I've seen online is here.

Oh one more thing. Where do I get dichlor and boric acid?

Boric acid is sold online in granular and powdered form. It is sold for many uses, just make sure it is 100% technical grade boric acid. For instance: here, here, here and here.

Use The Pool Calculator for dosing.

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Thanks Mike! I just ordered the Taylor test kit from the site you linked. Wow, what a deal compared to other online searches...Thanks!!

Great! I purchased mine before I knew about this site. Another member recently posted this thread about purchasing the kit from this website. Let us know how it goes.

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...added ph increaser (as it was low, although it now reads high?? above the range of the test strip), and added alkalinity increaser to get in range (now about 150).

You should generally avoid adding pH increaser. The best way to adjust your pH is to adjust your alkalinity to the point where it keeps your pH stable.

I think that you will find an alkalinity of 150 to be too high. Most people get a stable pH with an alkalinity of about 80 ppm while using dichlor and about 60 ppm when using bleach.

Just for the record. Using the dichlor/bleach method with a TA stable at 75 for the past few months I've used a dash of borax and baking soda to raise the pH when needed. A dash means two table spoons maybe every 3->4 weeks. My TA has not needed much adjustment since I've moved to using this method. Stop using all those chemicals and save yourself some money and hassle.

As it was the holidays and I was going to be away for 4-5 days I dug out the floater and dropped in one tablet of trichlor. That was all that was needed for the duration. I tested the water tonight and it had residual chlorine 2.x and 7.5pH. I had dropped the temperature down to 97 while gone. The tabled was 1/4 left and I threw it out.

Long and short of it get your TA fixed low (<85) and use the dichlor/bleach method and it will save you hassle and $$.

Greg

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...added ph increaser (as it was low, although it now reads high?? above the range of the test strip), and added alkalinity increaser to get in range (now about 150).

You should generally avoid adding pH increaser. The best way to adjust your pH is to adjust your alkalinity to the point where it keeps your pH stable.

I think that you will find an alkalinity of 150 to be too high. Most people get a stable pH with an alkalinity of about 80 ppm while using dichlor and about 60 ppm when using bleach.

Just for the record. Using the dichlor/bleach method with a TA stable at 75 for the past few months I've used a dash of borax and baking soda to raise the pH when needed. A dash means two table spoons maybe every 3->4 weeks. My TA has not needed much adjustment since I've moved to using this method. Stop using all those chemicals and save yourself some money and hassle.

Greg

Same here - I've been using the Dichlor/chlorox method for more than 3 months now. My TA stays at around 70-80, and my PH around 7.4, and I rarely need to adjust. Only difference is I've not yet needed to use any borax or baking soda.

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Just for the record. Using the dichlor/bleach method with a TA stable at 75 for the past few months I've used a dash of borax and baking soda to raise the pH when needed. A dash means two table spoons maybe every 3->4 weeks. My TA has not needed much adjustment since I've moved to using this method. Stop using all those chemicals and save yourself some money and hassle.

Greg

Same here - I've been using the Dichlor/chlorox method for more than 3 months now. My TA stays at around 70-80, and my PH around 7.4, and I rarely need to adjust. Only difference is I've not yet needed to use any borax or baking soda.

Mike,

Just as a note to you on Borax. My pH stays around 7.5-7.6 and when it falls to 7.4 I use that as an excuse to add some borites (borax) to soften and stabilize the water while raising pH. There have been many threads on this and I am still not 100% sure why we should want to add Borites if for no other reason then raising the pH while not affecting the TA. This was the first reason I started to use it instead of pH-up (or other chemicals) but noticed it made the water soft. Hard to describe but the water would just feel better and definitely the balancing was made easy. I think a dash of Borax helps the water but can't tell you how and why exactly.

Just thought I'd feed that snip-it of info back to the community.

Greg

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Using 20 Mule Team Borax will raise the pH with half the rise in TA as with pH Up (sodium carbonate). It also increases the borates level in the spa which is probably what makes it feel "softer" to you. The borates in the water will tend to reduce the surface tension of the water which might be what makes it feel softer. At higher borates levels, such as 50 ppm, the borates act as a reasonable pH buffer that makes the pH more stable without being a source of rising pH (unlike a higher TA from carbonates).

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Mike,

Just as a note to you on Borax. My pH stays around 7.5-7.6 and when it falls to 7.4 I use that as an excuse to add some borites (borax) to soften and stabilize the water while raising pH. There have been many threads on this and I am still not 100% sure why we should want to add Borites if for no other reason then raising the pH while not affecting the TA. This was the first reason I started to use it instead of pH-up (or other chemicals) but noticed it made the water soft. Hard to describe but the water would just feel better and definitely the balancing was made easy. I think a dash of Borax helps the water but can't tell you how and why exactly.

Just thought I'd feed that snip-it of info back to the community.

Greg

Thanks for sharing this info Greg.

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As for how much oxidizer to use, the rough rule-of-thumb is that every person-hour of soaking in a hot (100-104F) tub requires around 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor or 5 fluid ounces of 6% bleach or 7 teaspoons (2-1/3 tablespoons) of non-chlorine shock (43% MPS). 1 tablespoon of MPS after each soak would handle around 25 person-minutes of soaking, so probably one person soaking for 20-30 minutes.

Chem Geek -

I have a question about your "rule of thumb" ...

It seems that the amount of additive is INDEPENDENT of the tub size. It is only dependent on "person-hours of soaking". Is this correct? If so, you would add as much chlorine bleach to a 300 gallon tub as you would to a 600 gallon tub if the "person hours of soaking" was the same. Obviously, the FC ppm's is half as high in the larger tub.

Maybe I'm missing something here ... but this rule of thumb would seem to indicate that if the proper level of sanitation for a 300 gallon tub was an FC of 2ppm (minimum) then it's only 1ppm (mimimum) for a 600 gallon tub, assuming similar usage. Correct?

I always thought you needed a minimum level of FC to keep your tub sanitized. I try to keep mine in the 3-6 ppm range, because I have a high CYA (>100). With a more normal level of CYA (about 30-40) I would probably keep FC in the 2-3 range. Your rule of thumb seems to indicate FC ppm is not a good measure of sanitation.

Lastly, it's easy to measure FC ppm, but measuring "person hours of soaking" is very subjective. If my measured FC is 1ppm, I'll add enough chlorine to bring it up to the 3 - 5 range. Is this wrong?

I'd appreciate some clarification. I think I'm not understanding an important concept.

Thanks,

- Simon

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An FC/CYA ratio for a level of sanitation is not the same thing as a total chlorine amount (FC times water volume) needed to oxidize bather waste. The reason for the person-hour rule-of-thumb that is independent of spa size is that it is based solely on the amount of nitrogenous compounds (mostly urea and some ammonia, creatinine and amino acids) in your sweat and urine. It is, as you point out, a rough rule-of-thumb and will vary depending on the person and what else they may have on their skin or introduce into the tub.

Sanitation is based on the active chlorine level in the tub as a concentration (that is, an amount per volume, not a total amount), so an FC as a % of CYA. That determines how quickly pathogens get killed. It also determines the rate of oxidation of bather waste, but that usually isn't an issue in a hot water tub as most bather waste gets oxidizes in hours, long before the next soak (unless the FC/CYA ratio gets quite low as can happen after some months of Dichlor-only use). So you maintain an FC/CYA ratio to provide continual sanitation and most importantly do not let the chlorine level get too low for too long or else bacteria can grow and potentially form biofilms that are harder to get rid of.

So realistically, you want to add enough chlorine after a soak so that you still measure a decent residual of chlorine by your next soak -- that is the ultimate rule. It's just that this doesn't give very much guidance to people in terms of having 1 person soak for 10 minutes vs. 4 people soaking for an hour. Many people use too little oxidizer which is where they get into trouble with sanitizer levels getting to zero so having a rule-of-thumb can be helpful -- if nothing else, for having people not think that adding what seems like a lot of Dichlor/bleach/MPS is actually necessary when the bather load is high. If someone were to have even 4 ppm FC at the start of their soak but do not add any oxidizer after their soak, then they may very well get very close to 0 ppm FC within an hour or two after their soak if, for example, they had 2 people soaking for 30 minutes in 350 gallons (which would consume close to 7 ppm FC in 350 gallons).

Hope that helps,

Richard

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Chem Geek -

Richard, thank you for the thorough explanation.

Since my tub is small and has relatively consistent use (only my wife and I use it about 4 or 5 evenings per week), I'll focus on keeping my FC level high enough for sanitation purposes. Because of high CYA (>100) I try to keep FC around 5ppm and not let it get below 3pmm. I shock my tub with bleach about once every two weeks or if my chlorine demand seems to go up sharply.

I'm not very consistent about using MPS for oxidizing - maybe a tbls once a week. I think the chlorine shock gets rid of most of the "bather waste". If my CC gets to 2ppm, I'll add two tbls MPS.

Anyway ... the diclor-then-bleach method has been working fine for me. Thanks for suggesting that I try it. I'll be changing out my water soon, so I'll get the CYA level right on the new refill.

Happy New Year,

- Simon

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