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Nature2 Effectiveness And Life


spawn

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Apparently Nature2 cartridges should be placed after four months of use - period.

From my inexperienced point of view it seems that the life span and/or effectiveness of a Nature2 cartridge would be effected by the spa's water capacity. For example, if User A has a 250 gal spa and User B has a 500 gal spa it would seem that effectiveness or life spa would be different.

Is the concentration of ions in the water independent of of spa capacity? If ions are released from the cartridge at a uniform rate wouldn't the concentration be higher in the 250 gal spa? Or is the effectiveness of the ions independent of the concentration?

Is there a point at which the water becomes satruarated with ions and no more ions are released into solution? Or are the ions released but exit the water somehow?

I guess I am just surprised that Zodiac has a uniform recomendation to replace the cartridge at four months (easy instruction to follow for sure) for all spas and that there is no suggestion that the cartridge will be more beneficial in a small spa.

Is there anyone who understands this stuff who can explain it to a laymna like me? Thanks!

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Hmmm, not much interest in this topic. Just in case there is anyone with mild interest, here is what I found out, from tech support at Zodiac, the makers of the Nature2 cartridge.

It is likely that there is a higher concentration of ions in the smaller spa and this could result in the product being perhaps more effective in a smaller spa. Probaly doesn't really matter, it is effective in either case.

What I was curious about was whether it was really necessary to replace the cartridge at 4 months. He expalained that the cartridge releases the ions over the first week or so. He said there may be some mild resiual release later on but really, the intent is for the ions to go into the water in that first week. Then with proper maintenance they continue to be effective for four months. He said that if you try to stretch it you'll probably start using more MPS. I did not think to ask why the Vision cartridge that Zodiac makes for Dimension One is good for six months.

The reason that I was curious is I think that I might want to change my water more frequently. I have often read in the forums about how the water quality starts getting iffy when users try to extend the time between fills and have frequently read how nothing feels better than a freshly filled spa. I also have twin teenage daughters who, with their friends, could destroy spa water quality in short order. I figure, why push it, just change it at three months instead of six and enjoy fresher, better water. The cost for me to fill and heat a spa is less than $10, plus chemicals where I live. However, the Nature2 or Vision cartridge makes this strategy more expensive because when you dump your water, you loose the ions that the cartridge released. I had thought that maybe they had a slow time release and that maybe I could dump my water and re-use the same cartridge but now I understand why this would not work.

I was interested in the Nature2 because I thought it might relieve me a little bit from daily spa maintenance. I may still use it but will consider going without. If I buy a D1 spa I might forgo the Vision cartirdge that my dealer sells for $70 -$80 and just use Nature2 which I can get for about $25, if I have to replace a cartridge with every fill - the cost difference for four fills in a year would be siginficant. Of course some may suggest, "Just keep the water for six months and don't worry about it".

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Is the concentration of ions in the water independent of of spa capacity? If ions are released from the cartridge at a uniform rate wouldn't the concentration be higher in the 250 gal spa? Or is the effectiveness of the ions independent of the concentration?

Is there a point at which the water becomes satruarated with ions and no more ions are released into solution? Or are the ions released but exit the water somehow?

I'm not really expert on this really but the concentration of silver in the water is low in reality so its not like that will effect the ability for the silver to go into solution so volume shouldn't matter in that respect and I think this is more of an erosion situation anyway when you're talking about life expectancy of the cartridge. If a 500 gallon and a 250 gallon spa both have a circ pump and the flow through that circ line (going through the cartridge) is the basically the same between the two I'd think the cartridges would wear out about the same time frame regardless of the vast difference spa size.

Anyone concur? Disagree?

Take a look at the cartridge at 4 months and compare it to a new one and I think you'll conclude its spent or very nearly so.

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I'm not really expert on this really but the concentration of silver in the water is low in reality

Remember Vermonter that used to post on my site? He owned a testing lab and tested municipal water systems around the country to check that they were up to EPA standards (among other things). According to him, his tests didn't show anything different in the water when using Nature2, as opposed to not using Nature2.

"Low" could be a bit of an understatement.

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I'm not really expert on this really but the concentration of silver in the water is low in reality

Remember Vermonter that used to post on my site? He owned a testing lab and tested municipal water systems around the country to check that they were up to EPA standards (among other things). According to him, his tests didn't show anything different in the water when using Nature2, as opposed to not using Nature2.

"Low" could be a bit of an understatement.

Dr Spa - some Nature2 users report that it didn't help them while others swear by it. Do you think there might be a placebo effect for those who feel that it helps them?

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Is the concentration of ions in the water independent of of spa capacity? If ions are released from the cartridge at a uniform rate wouldn't the concentration be higher in the 250 gal spa? Or is the effectiveness of the ions independent of the concentration?

Is there a point at which the water becomes satruarated with ions and no more ions are released into solution? Or are the ions released but exit the water somehow?

I'm not really expert on this really but the concentration of silver in the water is low in reality so its not like that will effect the ability for the silver to go into solution so volume shouldn't matter in that respect and I think this is more of an erosion situation anyway when you're talking about life expectancy of the cartridge. If a 500 gallon and a 250 gallon spa both have a circ pump and the flow through that circ line (going through the cartridge) is the basically the same between the two I'd think the cartridges would wear out about the same time frame regardless of the vast difference spa size.

Anyone concur? Disagree?

Take a look at the cartridge at 4 months and compare it to a new one and I think you'll conclude its spent or very nearly so.

Spatech - the tech support guy at Zodiac that I spoke with said that the cartridge pretty much released all of the ions within about a week. I suggested that you could just remove the cartridge after a couple of weeks and you would still be good for four months. He said " I suppose you could, but there MAY still be a little release that would occur after the first week or so". this was surprising to me because I imagined that it worked like you described, slowly releasing or disolving over time. But apparently the cartridge is spent after a week or so.

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ARGH! It's so hard to figure out what you need, what you don't, what works and what is hype when it comes to spas. I have a Nature2 and now I think I' might not replace it.

hrustar - I don't even qualify as a newbie yet becasue I stiil do not have a spa. I did a lot a research in the past (its my nature, drives my wife nuts) and I am getting up to speed again because i will be buying one in the spring. However, I have noticed that there are a lot of very expereinced spa owners who seem to do just fine with dichlor. I expect to use the spa a lot but there may be times where I will be away for a few days so I thought that Nature2 and maybe ozone could help with that. I have a neighbor - long time spa owner - who just uses diclor, has a couple of very young kids (water qulaity challenge) and sometimes is away for a week. i need to find out what he does when he leaves town because I thought that you had to stay on top of it almost daily with dichlor

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If you want the water to last longer, then consider the Dichlor-then-bleach method (see this post). If you use only Dichlor, then this builds up Cyanuric Acid (CYA) over time and that makes the chlorine less effective, not only for sanitation but also for oxidation of bather waste. So far, most Dichlor-then-bleach users are able to go around twice as long between water changes and when they do change the water, the change isn't as noticeable meaning that it hasn't become as bad before the change. Note that the TA must be lowered and use of 50 ppm Borates is recommended to keep the pH stable.

As for Nature2, I would assume that the silver ions were actually released since their low-chlorine recipe using mostly non-chlorine shock (MPS) passed EPA DIS/TSS-12 which is used for spas as well as pools and that wouldn't have happened if using silver ion or MPS alone. I suspect that Vermonter just found that the chlorine killed bacteria quickly by itself so the Nature2 didn't have any perceived extra benefit, but that's just a guess -- can anyone link to the post from Vermonter?

The main benefit of Nature2 is as insurance when the tub is not used. It should prevent runaway bacterial growth even if the chlorine level gets to zero. It won't kill everything and certainly won't kill as quickly, but it should kill most bacteria quickly enough to prevent serious buildup problems. It seems from reports on this forum that this is the case as water seems to stay better with Nature2. Another option for spa maintenance while away is an ozonator (assuming you already have one with your spa). When one returns in either case, one can shock the spa to be safe.

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I'm not really expert on this really but the concentration of silver in the water is low in reality

Remember Vermonter that used to post on my site? He owned a testing lab and tested municipal water systems around the country to check that they were up to EPA standards (among other things). According to him, his tests didn't show anything different in the water when using Nature2, as opposed to not using Nature2.

"Low" could be a bit of an understatement.

I too, questioned if the Nature2 cartridges did anything, or are worth the cost. So, after using them since I first bought my tub 18 months ago, decided to try just dichlor and no cartridge on this last water fill. Results so far after 6 weeks on the water are: I really can't see any difference at all! Water is staying very clear with just a small amount of dichlor after each soak, just as I did with the cartridge. Ask me again in another month, though.....

Thanks, Randy

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If you want the water to last longer, then consider the Dichlor-then-bleach method (see this post). If you use only Dichlor, then this builds up Cyanuric Acid (CYA) over time and that makes the chlorine less effective, not only for sanitation but also for oxidation of bather waste. So far, most Dichlor-then-bleach users are able to go around twice as long between water changes and when they do change the water, the change isn't as noticeable meaning that it hasn't become as bad before the change. Note that the TA must be lowered and use of 50 ppm Borates is recommended to keep the pH stable.

As for Nature2, I would assume that the silver ions were actually released since their low-chlorine recipe using mostly non-chlorine shock (MPS) passed EPA DIS/TSS-12 which is used for spas as well as pools and that wouldn't have happened if using silver ion or MPS alone. I suspect that Vermonter just found that the chlorine killed bacteria quickly by itself so the Nature2 didn't have any perceived extra benefit, but that's just a guess -- can anyone link to the post from Vermonter?

The main benefit of Nature2 is as insurance when the tub is not used. It should prevent runaway bacterial growth even if the chlorine level gets to zero. It won't kill everything and certainly won't kill as quickly, but it should kill most bacteria quickly enough to prevent serious buildup problems. It seems from reports on this forum that this is the case as water seems to stay better with Nature2. Another option for spa maintenance while away is an ozonator (assuming you already have one with your spa). When one returns in either case, one can shock the spa to be safe.

chemgeek - thanks for the link to Nitro's method. I have been looking at info in the water chem forum and it seems that this approach has a great following. I will try it on my spa. I think I will try Nature2 for the reasons you suggest.

Is there a way to request that a moderatopr move this thread to the water chemistry forum? I am new here and can't seem to find find to contact a moderator - already learned that I should not use the "report" button. thanks!

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I think everything has some degree of placebo effect.

I started looking for Vermonters old post. Not enough time in my day :-( ...sorry;

http://www.rhtubs.com/cgi-bin/bbs/config1.pl

You could try searching the entire date range, for posts made by vermonter. There's not really that many to go through, I'm not sure if searching from that URL ONLY searches Archives#1 (may need to search #2, #3, #4 separately)

ooooooooooooo, yeah, gonna have to search each archive individually. YIKES

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Archives 2 and 4 only had one post each, but Archives 1 and 3 had plenty of Vermonter posts. I took a look at most of them and categorize them as follows with useful info on a variety of subjects that I and others have commented about. What a pain, but it was interesting.

Basically, Vermonter used silver (and zinc) ions in his own spa with Nature2 (he also had ozone) and saw that these ions are synergistic with chlorine. This is all consistent with scientific reports and of course this makes sense since that was what Vermonter was looking at along with experiences in his own lab. So I would not say that Nature2 does not have value, at least not based on anything that Vermonter wrote.

Note that he pondered about the buildup of CYA and that this was an unanswered question for him. If spa water was getting changed frequently enough, the question was probably moot. Also, if he had gone to bleach after Dichlor, then he would have run into the pH issues we had to work out with lowering the TA (which is not obvious given industry dogma) and using 50 ppm Borates.

It is interesting that Vermonter's own studies showed MPS, even with Nature2, to not be a sufficient sanitizer. I know that the water has to be hot in order for the silver ion + MPS to be effective, but it sounded like he did the tests in that kind of environment so I don't know why it didn't work for him but presumably did for Nature2 with the EPA. I'll have to E-mail him about that.

ION SYSTEMS (including Nature2)

Vermonter's position on ions

Nature2

Nature2 and chlorine

Rainforest Blue

alternatives to chlorine

Nature2 not an oxidizer, but is a sanitizer (though not primary)

Nature2 (earlier post)

Nature2 good for when not using tub

Nature2

ions

conversation with Nature2

Pristine Blue

OZONE

link

link

when to replace ozonator

CD vs. UV

ozone short life

testing ozone

ozone injector

ozone sanitation

CT values and ozone

CHLORINE, MPS, ETC.

sanitizing vs. oxidizing

water chemistry

Dichlor and shocking

Vermonter's approach

shocking

shocking and regimen

MPS even with Nature2 is BAD

MPS alone not good

more MPS even with Nature2 not good

shocking he may not use enough daily to avoid this

MPS

dosing for ppm note that he does not use a fixed amount for bather load; this can lead to too little sanitizer which explains the need for shocking

Baqua Spa

DISINFECTING A SPA

bad smell

biofilm

pH/TA, REVERSE OSMOSIS, MISC.

pH and TA -- doesn't know about aeration raising pH with no change in TA

Reverse Osmosis

Reverse Osmosis

Leisure Time products -- doesn't know that pH Up (sodium carbonate) raises TA as well as pH

sodium carbonate vs. bicarbonate

Reverse Osmosis and Ion Exchange

immunocompromised

test kit (before the K-2006 was around, I believe)

TDS

enzymes

more enzymes

bacterial counts

UV

bacteriological safety

UV

Pseudomonas and biofilm

Pseudomonas

enzymes and testing

more on enzymes

hot tub lung

MAC (mycobacterium)

Vermonter method

enzymes

more Vermonter method

biofilms

The above are the more recent highlights. There were many other posts.

Richard

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Thanks to Dr. Spa for referencing Vermonter's inquiries into Nature2 and to chemgeek for mining the archives so this good info can easily be shared. It appears that Vermonter was actually a proponent of Nature2 and thought it allowed him relief from daily dichlor treatment.

I think that I will probably try to implement Nitro's approach, with Nature2 and every four months do a fresh fill and replace the Natrue2 cartridge.

Next I'll have to come to a decision on ozone - it seems that Vermonter used it but was not convinced of its value.

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Thanks to Dr. Spa for referencing Vermonter's inquiries into Nature2 and to chemgeek for mining the archives so this good info can easily be shared. It appears that Vermonter was actually a proponent of Nature2 and thought it allowed him relief from daily dichlor treatment.

I think that I will probably try to implement Nitro's approach, with Nature2 and every four months do a fresh fill and replace the Natrue2 cartridge.

Next I'll have to come to a decision on ozone - it seems that Vermonter used it but was not convinced of its value.

I also want to add my thanks and kudos to Nitro, Dr. Spa, and Vermonter for providing me with all the useful information on sanitation, decontamination, maintenance and Nature2 and ozone. I submitted a post about a week or so ago asking for information that would help me maintain a safe tub for 2-3 week periods when I would be absent and not available to provide daily or weekly maintenance. This thread has provided me with the information I was looking for. I also agree with Spawn...it seems from the many posts I read from Vermonter, he was a proponent of Nature2 and ozone, but recognized silver ion sanitation had its limitations.

Thanks again. This is a great forum.

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I was interested in the Nature2 because I thought it might relieve me a little bit from daily spa maintenance. I may still use it but will consider going without. If I buy a D1 spa I might forgo the Vision cartirdge that my dealer sells for $70 -$80 and just use Nature2 which I can get for about $25 ...

You can get Nature2 cartridges here for $17.44 with free shipping within the US. I bought 2 from them a couple weeks ago. Brand new in factory retail packaging and fast shipping.

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