Spa Frog Floater Assistance

[karlg]

Hello,

I have found a wealth of information here - you have a great board.

I purchase a home and along with it came a Caldera Hawaiian hot tub. I have had not prior experience with pools or hot tubs so this whole chemical thing is a little intimidating. I want to do it right and most of the information I find on the Internet is helpful, but now I feel I have information overload.

Background and choosing Spa Frog floater system....

First - I believe based on feedback in other threads on this board and information elsewhere and the fact that manufactures are not building them into their spa I want to use the Spa Frog system. I believe this is a bromine based system but I don't know much more than that.

We presently as we are still moving in have used the spa twice in two weeks but will probably use it two to three times a week when we get going.

I am really surprised that the Spa Frog website doesn't really have much technical information as compared to Leisure Time. So I really don't know what I need for a complete system.

I am looking for a system with minimal maintenance - at least not daily.

The hot tub came with selection of various brand chemicals to raise / lower ph, calcium and chlorine tablets - so I assume (since I have not other information to go by) that calcium is being used as a sanitizer. I have been able to with the test strips maintain the right levels as indicated by the strips - so I must be doing something right.

Q: Has anyone else been successful with the Spa Frog system? Are there other similar bromine systems comparable to Spa Frog?

Q: Where can I find more information about the Spa Frog system?

Q: What do I need along with the Spa Frog floating system?

Obviously I know the floater. Do I need the Spa Frog mineral purifier filter sanitizer as well?

Q: What other chemicals am I doing to have to have a supply of?

Q: Do I need to drain and refill in order to start using the Spa Frog Floater?

I am sure all noob questions - sorry, but I figure a Spa Frog owner(s) willing to point me in the right direction must be lurking our there.

Thanks so much in advance for your help and assistance.

Karl

[The Pup]

Q: Has anyone else been successful with the Spa Frog system?

Yes. http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18823

Q: Are there other similar bromine systems comparable to Spa Frog?

Quite possibly yes.

Q: Where can I find more information about the Spa Frog system?

I would contact the manufacture...although it puzzles me as to what other information you need..it is a very simple system.

Brochure: http://www.waterwarehouse.com/pdfs/6849.pdf

Manual: http://www.waterwarehouse.com/pdfs/6849a.pdf

Q: What do I need along with the Spa Frog floating system?

You need to search this site and do some homework (see below for an excerpt from a prior post regarding Bromine use).

Q: Obviously I know [i need] the floater. Do I need the Spa Frog mineral purifier filter sanitizer as well?

I use it and I assume it contributes something to favorable water chemistry (to what degree I do not know).

Q: What other chemicals am I doing to have to have a supply of?

MPS (shock), PH-up, PH-down, TA increaser, CH-increaser, etc. (see information below regarding spa chemicals).

Q: Do I need to drain and refill in order to start using the Spa Frog Floater?

Perhaps not...read reference material below.

For reference 1: (I am not sure where I originally got this information...perhaps from Hillbilly Hot Tub) http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.ph...owtopic=18310

Bromine

When bromine is added to a spa it's in the form of bromide ions. It then activated with an oxidizer to form hypobromous acid. Hypobromous acid is the killing form of bromine. When hypobromous acid reacts with an organic contaminant it's reduced back to bromide ions. The bromide ions can then be reactivated back into hypobromous acid by the addition of an oxidizer. This is somewhat of a continuos cycle with bromine sanitized spas.

If 100 percent of the bromide ions became hypobromous acid and 100 percent of the hypobromous acid returned to bromide ions, you would never again have to add more bromide salt. But hypobromous acid can react with certain chemicals in the water that tie up the bromide ions and prevents them from becoming free bromide ions in the water. This happens when hypobromous acid produces bromate or bromoform for instance. There are many other combinations that tie up the bromine so it can not become a free bromide ions. For this reason more bromine salt or bromide ions need to periodically be added. The level of bromide ions should not go below 15 ppm.

The basis behind 2-part liquid bromine sanitizing systems is to add a salt of bromine (sodium bromide) to the water to get bromide ions and then oxidize the bromide ions with an oxidizer such as monopersulfate (MPS), hydrogen peroxide, percarbonate, ozone or any compound of chlorine to produce hypobromous acid. You need a minimum of 15 ppm of bromide ions for an oxidizer to work and to provide a "bank" of bromide ions for an oxidizer to react with.

Bromine tablets are typically 1-bromo-3-chloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin. When added to water they hydrolyze to become hypobromous acid. With bromine tablets a separate oxidizer is not necessary to make hypobromous acid, it is already an ingredient in the tablets. When the hypobromous acid reacts with a contaminant and is reduced, it becomes a bromide ion. You then get a build up of bromide ions in the water. After a while, you could just start adding an oxidizer to reactivate the bromide ions to hypobromous acid, but most people don't, they just add more bromine tabs.

Currently is no way to test water to find out how much bromide ions are in it. This is because the same test that measures bromide ions also measures chloride ions and all water has chloride ions in it. Other than making an educated guess, there's no way to tell when the bromide ion level is too low. The 2-part bromine manufacturers know this and recommend that you add some bromide ions (liquid bromide salts) every few weeks or so.

Realistically, a bromine sanitized spa can not be switched over to chlorine, if there's still bromine in the water. All the chlorine added to the water is going to convert bromide ions into hypobromous acid. As long as there's 15 ppm or more of bromide ions in the water, all the chlorine added is going towards converting bromide ions into hypobromous acid, none of it will provide a chlorine residual. The spa will continue to be bromine sanitized until the bromide level gets below 15 ppm. But there is no test kit for measuring just bromide ions in the water and therefore no way to know when the bromide level is below 15 ppm. It could take a week. It could take 2 months.

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Maintaining a Bromine Sanitized Spa

Upon initially filling, you need to establish a bromide ion reserve in the water. Bromine tablets can do this by themselves, but it can literally take weeks until enough tablets dissolve. Some people crush about 6 tablets up and put them in the water to achieve this initial reserve, but it's really easier and cheaper to add a packet or two of sodium bromide! Bromine tablets contain both bromine and chlorine to oxidize the bromine into active sanitizer. If you do not add the sodium bromide and just put in bromine tablets then you will be starting with a chlorine system until enough bromide dissolves in the water.

There are basically two types of bromine systems, 2-step and 3-step. In the 2-step system you add the sodium bromide to the water to the proper concentration, then add oxidizer on a regular basis (usually, chlorine, MPS, or ozone, or a combination of them) to oxidize the bromide ions into hypobromous acid, your active sanitizer. One of the more popular 2-step bromine systems is the Enhance/Activate Sanitizing System. It's quite easy but does require a bit of attention daily to maintain the bromine levels in the water.

A 3-step system is identical with the addition of bromine tablets in a floating feeder. This requires a bit less maintenance than the 2-step system, maintains a slightly more constant bromine level in the water, by allowing the bromine tablets to continuously and slowly dissolve into the water. The 3-step system costs more than the 2-step, since the bromine tablets are the most expensive part of this equation.

If you use the 2-step system and have an efficient ozonator, you might be able to achieve the constant bromine level without the use, or by using less oxidizer (MPS or chlorine) since the ozone is constantly oxidizing the sodium bromide while it is on. However, you may also deplete the bromide reserve more quickly this way, leading to the use of more sodium bromide, or a shorter time between drain and refills. Also, ozone can cause bromates to form in your water. Bromates are a suspected carcinogen in drinking water.

With either the 2-step or 3-step system you still need to shock the water, usually about once a week, to destroy organics in the water. "Shocking" involves raising the bromine levels to above 10 ppm. For shocking, any type of chlorine, or non-chlorine shock (MPS) can be used.

Simple Step by Step

Upon initially filling, balance the water (adjust TA and pH and calcium).

If you have metals in your water add a metal sequesterant.

On each fill add sodium bromide to the water (following manufacturer's directions on dosing, you'll end up with about a 30 ppm concentration of sodium bromide ions).

Shock with your preferred oxidizer (chlorine or MPS) and turn on the ozone if you are using it. Your bromine levels should be above 10 ppm (wait until they drop below 10 ppm to use spa).

If using a 3-step system add your floating feeder with bromine tablets and adjust it to maintain a 4-6 ppm bromine level. If using a 2-step system add your preferred oxidizer as needed (and adjust your ozone) to maintain a 4-6 ppm bromine level.

Shock weekly to burn off organics that collect in the water (if you are using ozone and your bromine levels are staying at 4-6 ppm then you may be able to shock less often).

Test bromine and pH each time you use the spa. Test all water parameters (bromine, pH, TA, Calcium Hardness) weekly.

Drain and refill about every 3-4 months.

If you shock and the reading is back to zero in less than 24 hours with no spa use, you did not use enough shock. Shock again until you can maintain a reading, then adjust your daily/weekly maintenance to allow for more shock to prevent this issue from happening.

For reference 2: (I'm not sure where I found this information...perhaps waterbear?)

Lets look at spa chemicals for a minute, doesn't matter the brand

Alkalinity increaser is sodium bicarbonate, sometimes called sodium hydrogen carbonate (different name for same chemical). You probably have this in your kitchen or medicine chest. It's baking soda! Most of it is manufactured by Church and Dwight and repackaged. You might know the Church and Dwight brand as Arm and Hammer!

pH increaser is sodium carbonate, also called soda ash. You might have this in your laundry room as washing soda. Also mostly manufactured by

Church and Dwight and repackaged.

Dry pH decreaser is sodium bisulfate. Period! If you don't believe me look at the ingredients on just about any brand out there. Muratic acid and sulfuric acid are not commenly used in spas because the dosing is difficult unless they are sold in very diluted strengths. So if you are using a liquid pH decreaser for spas you are paying for mostly water with just a little bit of acid in it.

Calcium hardness increaser is calcium chloride. Most of it is manufactured by Dow Chemical and then repackaged. The Dow brand is DowFlake. It is sold by Dow as a De-icer and for pool and spa use!

If you are using a chlorine system then you are either using dichlor (stabilized granules), cacium hypochlorite (unstabilzed granules), lithium hypochlorite(very expensive unstabilzied granules), or sodium hypchlorite (liquid chlorine....also the same as laundry bleach, sometimes a stronger strength but not always!). Trichlor is not used in spas (or shouldn't be). It is too acidic and dissolves too slowly.

If you are using a bromine system then your chemical to create your bromine bank is sodium bromide. Your oxidizer is either a form of chlorine (usually dichlor or calcium hypochlorite in a 2 part bromine system that uses chlorine for the oxidizer) or is potassium monopersulfate (MPS), also called non chlorine shock.

Once again MPS is MPS. It's trade name is Oxone and was developed and manufactured by DuPont. They still sell it under that brand name. It is repackaged by other companies.

Bromine tabs are all basically 1-BROMO-3-CHLORO-5.5-DIMETHYLHYDANTION. This is a compount of bromine stabilzed with dimethylhyndation and it contains chlorine to acitive the bromine. There are a few bromine tabs on the market that contain MPS instead of chlorine.

For bromine to work it needs an oxidizer, usually chlorine or MPS (Ozone works also). Bromine by itself will not sanitize.

Water enhancers and conditioners are usually borax or a mixture of borax and dry acid (Technically borax is sodium tetraborate decahydrate, it has ten water molecules attached and the commercial products are sodium tetraborate pentahydrate, 5 water molecules attached so on a weight basis it is a bit more concentrated but it is still borax!) These are added to a concentration of 30-50 ppm to act as an algaestat, reduce sanitizer demand, help stabilize pH, and soften the water. The acid is needed to offset the pH increase from the borax. (BTW, these products work very well when used properly!). I don't believe that Walmart sells this type of chemical.

If you are buying chemicals at Walmart you are not using a biguanide sanitation system (SoftSoak, BaquaSpa, Revacil, etc.). They don't sell one.

Now as to my opinion of Walmart chemicals. The only drawback I have seen to some of them is that they sell them with more fillers so you need to use more of them. If the price is cheaper but you need more for the same dosage of active ingredients then you really aren't saving money. What you need to look at with ANY pool or spa chemical is how much does it cost per dose. Often times the cheaper products are the most expensive to use. (but not always)

I could continue with metal removers (majority are HEDP, a few are EDTA), clarifiers (sodium polyacrylate or chitosan), defoamers (simethicone), algaecides (there are really only a few of them--copper, liner quats, polyquat, inorganic ammonia, sodium bromide, silver, or mixtures of these) but I think you get the picture.

Trisodium Phosphate, T (5 lbs.)

Here's another reference from waterbear: http://www.troublefreepool.com/how-do-i-us...-pool-t102.html

There is a lot if misinformation on the proper way to use Bromine so I hope this primer is helpful.

First, you need to establish a bromide reserve in the water. Bromine tablets can do it by themselves but it can take literally weeks until enough dissolve. Some people crush about 6 of them up and put them in the water on each water change to achieve this but it really is easier and cheaper to add a packet or two of sodium bromide! It is available from such companies as HTH, Leisure Time, Robarb (Rendezvous), and others. Bromine tablets contain both bromine and chlorine to oxidize the bromine into active sanitizer. (There is one that I know of on the market that contains MPS instead of chlorine but it works exactly the same way.) If you do not add the sodium bromide and just put in bromine tabs then you will be starting with a chlorine system until enough bromide dissolves in the water.

There are basically 2 ways to do a bromine system--2-step and 3-step. In the 2-step system you add the sodium bromide to the water to the proper concentration, then add oxidizer on a regular basis (usually, chlorine, MPS, or ozone, or a combination of them) to oxidize the bromide ions into hypobromous acid, your active sanitizer. It's pretty easy but does require a bit of attention daily to maintain the bromine levels in the water.

A 3-step system is identical with the addition of bromine tabs in a floater. This will help maintain a more constant bromine level in the water with less maintenance but otherwise there is no difference. The three step system costs more since the bromine tablets are the most expensive part of this equation. The dimethylhydantoin in the tablets seems to have a similar (but not identical) function in a bromine system as CYA does in a chlorine system. It tends to stablilize it but, like CYA, too much is not good. Not that much info is readily available on the effects of dimethylhydantion other than that it makes the bromine more difficult to destroy, a consideration if you ever want to switch over to a chlorine system.

If you add sodium bromide to your water and have an ozonator you might be able to achieve the constant bromine level without the floater since the ozone is constantly oxidizing the bromide while it is on. However, you might deplete the bromide reserve quickly this way, leading to a shorter time between drain and refills. Also, ozone can cause bromates to form in your water. Bromates are a suspected carcinogen in drinking water.

You still need to superoxidize (shock), usually about once a week to destroy organics in the water whether you chose the 2-step or 3-step method.. I prefer plain, unscented laundry bleach (5.25%) for shocking a bromine spa. 1 cup per 250-300 gallons is about right. If you use Ultra bleach (6%) then you need about 3/4 cup. You can also use 12.5% pool chlorine at half the ultra bleach dose. They are all sodium hypochlorite, just in different strengths. If you do not want to use a liquid shock you can also use calcium hyopchlorite granules (slow dissolving and will cause your calcium levels to rise), Lithium hypochlorite (very fast dissolving but very expensive, however my first choice for a granulated shock since it really has minimal impact on your water like the liquid does), or MPS--potassium monopersulfate, also called non chlorine shock (will lower your pH and TA and add sulfates to your water). There is no advantage to using dichlor (stabilized chlorine) for shocking a bromine system but it probably wouldn't hurt. CYA (stabilizer) does not stabilize bromine.

Here is a step by step:

1) On each fill balance the water (adjust TA and pH. Add calcium if below 125 for acrylic spas or below 200 for plaster.) If you have metals in your water add a metal sequesterant.

1) On each fill add sodium bromide to the water. (Follow manufacturer's directions on dosing. You will end up with about a 30 ppm concentration of sodium bromide.)

2) Shock with your preferred oxidizer (chlorine or MPS) and turn on the ozone if you are using it. Your bromine levels should now be above 10 ppm. Wait until they drop below 10 ppm before entering spa.

3) If using a 3-step system add your floater with bromine tabs and adjust it to maintain a 4-6 ppm bromine level. If using a 2 step system add your preferred oxidizer as needed (and adjust your ozone) to maintain a 4-6 ppm bromine level.

4) Shock weekly to burn off organics that collect in the water. (If you are using ozone and your bromine levels are staying at 4-6 ppm then you can shock less often.) Wait until the bromine level drops below 10 ppm before entering spa.

5) Test bromine and pH before entering spa each time. Test all water parameters (bromine, pH, TA, Calcium Hardness) weekly.

6) Drain and refill about every 3-4 months.

One final note. A good test kit is a must, just like with a chlorine system. IMHO, the BEST test kit for bromine is the Taylor K-2106 which has an FAS-DPD test for bromine and also tests for pH with acid and base demand, TA, and CH. If you already have a Trouble Free Testkit TF100 (or are getting one for your chlorine pool) then use the OTO test (small comparator with yelllow color blocks) for your bromine levels since you only want to know total bromine. The TF100 has all the other tests you need also. Remember, you don't need to test CYA in a bromine system.

Happy bromine hot tubbing!

[karlg]

Thank you so much for extensive reply. Wow very good information "The Pup".

This is certainly going to take me a while to digest.

Thanks for being so helpful.

Karl

[tony]

You do not need the Frog floating system to use bromine/silver cartridge in your spa. You can purchase the regular Frog cartridge (or the LiesureTime cartridge which is made by the Frog people), install it in your filter and use any bromine system you like whether it be a floater, two part or Brilliance. It allows you to keep a lower bromine level.

[The Pup]

You do not need the Frog floating system to use bromine/silver cartridge in your spa. You can purchase the regular Frog cartridge (or the LiesureTime cartridge which is made by the Frog people), install it in your filter and use any bromine system you like whether it be a floater, two part or Brilliance. It allows you to keep a lower bromine level.

My spa has an in-line option for the cartridges...but I prefer to remove the cartridges (Spa Frog floater) when I am soaking in the spa (although I really do not have a good reason).

[karlg]

Well - peace of mind is a good reason.