simonc Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 MY QUESTIONS: 1. Does an ozone generator SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the need for chlorine (or other chemicals)? 2. If YES, what type/brand of ozonator should I get? BACKGROUND: I have a small (275 gallon) Jacuzzi Brand Hot Tub which is about 4 years old. When I bought it, the salesperson said I would save a “bunch of money” if I got an ozonator as an add-on. I paid $189 for it. I suspect that it is no longer producing ozone. After talking to the dealer technician (not salesperson), I’m about 90% sure that it’s broken. It will cost about $550 for the dealer to install a new one. I’ve seen ozonator units advertised on the internet from about $150-$500 for self-installation. Well … you can buy a lot of chlorine for $500. Even if I get a cheaper one and install it myself, it’s not exactly a bargain either. I turn the temperature down after I use the tub because I may not go in it for a couple of days. When I do this on my Jacuzzi brand tub, the ozonator is only activated when the circulation pump goes on. This means that ozone is only generated about 1-2 hours/day. I don’t really think this is enough time to make much of a difference. I could keep the tub at 104 all the time, the ozonator would be on most of the time, but then my electric bill goes up. Lastly, doesn’t the ozone oxidize some of the chlorine so that you need to add more chlorine to keep the tub clean? So … is it worth the money to get an ozonator? If so, what type/brand should I get. Thanks, - Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 In theory, the ozonator should oxidize bather waste so that chlorine doesn't have to and that should reduce the quantity of required chlorine. However, in practice, this appears to only be the case when 1) the bather load is high and 2) the ozonator is fairly powerful. In more typical situations, the chlorine demand either stays the same or goes up somewhat, possibly with the ozone converting chlorine to chlorate or forcing more outgassing of chlorine (not sure of exactly why the chlorine demand goes up). Some people find the ozonator helps maintain water clarity, but this is usually when the chlorine level is not maintained. That is, it is like an insurance policy if the chlorine level gets too low -- at least for water clarity. Unlike N2, however, it doesn't have a significant residual in the bulk spa water so won't prevent the growth of pathogens stuck to spa surfaces. You could always just try the Dichlor-then-bleach method described by Nitro here and see if it works better for you than when your ozonator was working properly. I can't imagine it being too expensive since bleach isn't very costly. Probably the most expensive part of the approach is the one-time dose of Borates (e.g. Gentle Spa) and that's not very much and done only once per drain/refill (which should be less frequent using the Dichlor-then-bleach approach). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonc Posted October 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Chem Geek - Thanks for the information. As you suggested (in response to a previous post of mine), I have switched to the diclor-then-bleach method. So far it seems to be working fine. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience with me and others in this forum. In regards to my broken ozonator ... I decided that I'm NOT going to spend a few hundred dollars on a new ozonator. I did find some "inexpensive" (a relative term) CD type units for about $100-$150 that I could install myself. I MAY (not sure) get one of these and see if it makes a difference. I am hoping to get some more responses to this thread before I make a final decision. My primary reason for getting an ozonator to begin with was that I was told it would reduce the amount of chemicals I need to add to the water. Saving money, although important, is a secondary concern. I'm not sure that my ozonator ever made a difference. When I first got my Jacuzzi hot tub, I followed the directions that salespeople gave me about water chemistry. To sum up their advice ... keep adding chemicals of all kinds. After all, they make money by selling chemicals to "solve" my problems. When the water got to the point that I couldn't get the chemicals to do what they were suppose to - I drained the tub and started the same process over again. I tried diclor, bromine tablets, triclor tablets, ph+, ph-, non-chlorine shock, de-foamer, etc., etc. After 4 years of dumping more and more chemicals into my tub, I decided to join this forum and get some expert advice. I'm glad I did. I think for MY purposes, the ozonator is more marketing hype than an effective solution. Since I turn my tub temperature down after I use it, the circulation pump and the ozonator shuts down on my Jacuzzi tub. This means that I get about 1-2 hours per day of ozone due to the automatic timed pump cycles. I don't think this is really enough to be effective. I could keep my tub at a constant 104 degrees all the time and the ozonator would probably make some contribution, but I'm not convinced. Thanks again ... - Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bart6453 Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Chem Geek - Thanks for the information. As you suggested (in response to a previous post of mine), I have switched to the diclor-then-bleach method. So far it seems to be working fine. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience with me and others in this forum. In regards to my broken ozonator ... I decided that I'm NOT going to spend a few hundred dollars on a new ozonator. I did find some "inexpensive" (a relative term) CD type units for about $100-$150 that I could install myself. I MAY (not sure) get one of these and see if it makes a difference. I am hoping to get some more responses to this thread before I make a final decision. My primary reason for getting an ozonator to begin with was that I was told it would reduce the amount of chemicals I need to add to the water. Saving money, although important, is a secondary concern. I'm not sure that my ozonator ever made a difference. When I first got my Jacuzzi hot tub, I followed the directions that salespeople gave me about water chemistry. To sum up their advice ... keep adding chemicals of all kinds. After all, they make money by selling chemicals to "solve" my problems. When the water got to the point that I couldn't get the chemicals to do what they were suppose to - I drained the tub and started the same process over again. I tried diclor, bromine tablets, triclor tablets, ph+, ph-, non-chlorine shock, de-foamer, etc., etc. After 4 years of dumping more and more chemicals into my tub, I decided to join this forum and get some expert advice. I'm glad I did. I think for MY purposes, the ozonator is more marketing hype than an effective solution. Since I turn my tub temperature down after I use it, the circulation pump and the ozonator shuts down on my Jacuzzi tub. This means that I get about 1-2 hours per day of ozone due to the automatic timed pump cycles. I don't think this is really enough to be effective. I could keep my tub at a constant 104 degrees all the time and the ozonator would probably make some contribution, but I'm not convinced. Thanks again ... - Simon Simon, just for informational purposes....are you sure your circ pump shuts down with your heater? On the Jacuzzi tubs it typically runs 100% of the time, independent of the heater cycle. The only exception is during a power loss, your circ pump will only run when the heater is on during the first 24 hours after a power loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonc Posted October 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Simon, just for informational purposes....are you sure your circ pump shuts down with your heater? On the Jacuzzi tubs it typically runs 100% of the time, independent of the heater cycle. The only exception is during a power loss, your circ pump will only run when the heater is on during the first 24 hours after a power loss. Bar6453 - Well ... I'm pretty sure that my ozonator shuts down when the heater goes off or when it's not in one of it's scheduled circulation cycle ... but I'm not positive. Here's my observations and my "logic": 1. My ozonator produces bubbles. I'm fairly certain that they are just air bubbles (not containing ozone). When I crimp the single hose coming out the ozonator, the bubbles stop. When I uncrimp the hose, the bubbles start up again. Therefore, I conclude: BUBBLES = OZONATOR IS ON; NO BUBBLES = OZONATOR IS OFF. 2. I will see bubbles when the jacuzzi tub goes into it's automatic cycle ... by default this is 2 x 30min per day. (I can change this up to 4 x 30min per day.) I can trigger a cycle by turning the power off then on (at my wall circuit breaker). After about one minute after I turn the breaker to ON, the first 30 min cycle starts. I see bubbles during this cycle. The temperature setting has no effect on the production of bubbles, therefore I conclude that during these two automatic cycles per day, my ozonator is "working". (I put "working" in quotes because I pretty sure the bubbles are just plain air.) 3. I also see bubbles (=ozonator on) when I raise the temperature of the tub. When I lower the set temperature to below the actual water temperature, the bubbles go off (= ozonator off). When I mentioned this to the dealer service person (on the telephone) he agreed with me. However, my confidence in service people (in general) is rather low. I know the jacuzzi manual says that the circulation pump is on all the time. However, I think it is NOT true that Circ pump on = ozonator on At least, the manual doesn't speak to this situation. My dealer tells me that I SHOULD always leave my tub at the desired temperature (104 for me) and never turn it down. He says this does NOT cost more electricity. I'm skeptical of this. I don't leave my house at a constant temperature. I lower my home inside temperature at night and when I'm not home to save energy/money. Why should my Jacuzzi tub be different??? I'm curious ... do must people leave their tubs at the one desired temperature all the time ... assuming that it is usually used a few times a week? What do you do? So ... if I get a new ozonator (for a few hundred dollars) that produces OZONE bubbles instead of just air bubbles, my thinking is that the water will only get ozonated about 1-2 hours per day in my Jacuzzi brand tub. That doesn't seem to be enough to be an effective since ozone doesn't stay in the water like chlorine. This was probably a longer explanation than you wanted, but thanks for listening. - Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bart6453 Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Simon, just for informational purposes....are you sure your circ pump shuts down with your heater? On the Jacuzzi tubs it typically runs 100% of the time, independent of the heater cycle. The only exception is during a power loss, your circ pump will only run when the heater is on during the first 24 hours after a power loss. Bar6453 - Well ... I'm pretty sure that my ozonator shuts down when the heater goes off or when it's not in one of it's scheduled circulation cycle ... but I'm not positive. Here's my observations and my "logic": 1. My ozonator produces bubbles. I'm fairly certain that they are just air bubbles (not containing ozone). When I crimp the single hose coming out the ozonator, the bubbles stop. When I uncrimp the hose, the bubbles start up again. Therefore, I conclude: BUBBLES = OZONATOR IS ON; NO BUBBLES = OZONATOR IS OFF. 2. I will see bubbles when the jacuzzi tub goes into it's automatic cycle ... by default this is 2 x 30min per day. (I can change this up to 4 x 30min per day.) I can trigger a cycle by turning the power off then on (at my wall circuit breaker). After about one minute after I turn the breaker to ON, the first 30 min cycle starts. I see bubbles during this cycle. The temperature setting has no effect on the production of bubbles, therefore I conclude that during these two automatic cycles per day, my ozonator is "working". (I put "working" in quotes because I pretty sure the bubbles are just plain air.) 3. I also see bubbles (=ozonator on) when I raise the temperature of the tub. When I lower the set temperature to below the actual water temperature, the bubbles go off (= ozonator off). When I mentioned this to the dealer service person (on the telephone) he agreed with me. However, my confidence in service people (in general) is rather low. I know the jacuzzi manual says that the circulation pump is on all the time. However, I think it is NOT true that Circ pump on = ozonator on At least, the manual doesn't speak to this situation. My dealer tells me that I SHOULD always leave my tub at the desired temperature (104 for me) and never turn it down. He says this does NOT cost more electricity. I'm skeptical of this. I don't leave my house at a constant temperature. I lower my home inside temperature at night and when I'm not home to save energy/money. Why should my Jacuzzi tub be different??? I'm curious ... do must people leave their tubs at the one desired temperature all the time ... assuming that it is usually used a few times a week? What do you do? So ... if I get a new ozonator (for a few hundred dollars) that produces OZONE bubbles instead of just air bubbles, my thinking is that the water will only get ozonated about 1-2 hours per day in my Jacuzzi brand tub. That doesn't seem to be enough to be an effective since ozone doesn't stay in the water like chlorine. This was probably a longer explanation than you wanted, but thanks for listening. - Simon Hmmm.......when I got my tub I really struggled with the ozone question. I decided to skip it and get the better cover. Knowing what I know now, I would never spend the money on the ozonator, seems like they are just more trouble than they are worth. to top it off I have been using the di-chlor/bleach method, my Jacuzzi tub is 375 gallons, and uses 3.1 oz of bleach every other day when not used. My total bleach consumption per month is about a half a gallon.....which equates to about $2 of sanitizer per month. If an ozonator cut my sanitizer demand by 50%(which is wholly unrealistic but I needed to pick a number) it would take 200 months to pay for a $200 ozonator....and since they only last a few years....it equals a bad investment for me. thats my thoughts on the subject. I would check your circ pump though.....it should be running 24/7, if it's not there is something wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shovelhd Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 I just replaced the ozonator on my 4 year old Jacuzzi, and I use the dichlor/bleach sanitation method. I don't expect it to reduce my chemical usage, as I feel that the tub should always have 2-5ppm FC if it's being used. I think it is more of a safety in case the sanitizer level gets too low when it is not being used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bart6453 Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 I just replaced the ozonator on my 4 year old Jacuzzi, and I use the dichlor/bleach sanitation method. I don't expect it to reduce my chemical usage, as I feel that the tub should always have 2-5ppm FC if it's being used. I think it is more of a safety in case the sanitizer level gets too low when it is not being used. That's a very good point, and frankly a good reason to have ozone....nothing wrong with a little insurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 I just replaced the ozonator on my 4 year old Jacuzzi, and I use the dichlor/bleach sanitation method. I don't expect it to reduce my chemical usage, as I feel that the tub should always have 2-5ppm FC if it's being used. I think it is more of a safety in case the sanitizer level gets too low when it is not being used. The problem is, Ozone is not a very good insurance policy, because it doesn't sanitize (i.e. kill pathogens). Nature 2 is a better insurance policy because it acts a sanitizer. However, a Salt Water Chlorine Generator (SWCG) is an even better insurance policy, because it will keep FC constant when the tub is not in use. That's where I'd spend my money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot_water Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 I just replaced the ozonator on my 4 year old Jacuzzi, and I use the dichlor/bleach sanitation method. I don't expect it to reduce my chemical usage, as I feel that the tub should always have 2-5ppm FC if it's being used. I think it is more of a safety in case the sanitizer level gets too low when it is not being used. The problem is, Ozone is not a very good insurance policy, because it doesn't sanitize (i.e. kill pathogens). Nature 2 is a better insurance policy because it acts a sanitizer. However, a Salt Water Chlorine Generator (SWCG) is an even better insurance policy, because it will keep FC constant when the tub is not in use. That's where I'd spend my money. I've heard that it's hard to tell if the ozonator is actually working, and that just becasue it's making bubbles doesn't mean it's producing ozone (or possibly enough ozone) to accomplish anything meaningful. Can the experts comment on this? Personally I don't feel that I can trust the thing since I can't test for it. I maintain my sanitizer at the same level with it ir without. I have the same problem wih the mineral stick. Maybe the only benefit is to the guy that got the $23?? This is a great discussion - thanks guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bart6453 Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 I just replaced the ozonator on my 4 year old Jacuzzi, and I use the dichlor/bleach sanitation method. I don't expect it to reduce my chemical usage, as I feel that the tub should always have 2-5ppm FC if it's being used. I think it is more of a safety in case the sanitizer level gets too low when it is not being used. The problem is, Ozone is not a very good insurance policy, because it doesn't sanitize (i.e. kill pathogens). Nature 2 is a better insurance policy because it acts a sanitizer. However, a Salt Water Chlorine Generator (SWCG) is an even better insurance policy, because it will keep FC constant when the tub is not in use. That's where I'd spend my money. Interestingly enough, I have a Nature 2 cartridge for my insurance.....but I can tell it's getting to the end of it's useful life....my CD has gone up a bit. anyways....good info on the ozone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonc Posted October 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 The problem is, Ozone is not a very good insurance policy, because it doesn't sanitize (i.e. kill pathogens). Nature 2 is a better insurance policy because it acts a sanitizer. However, a Salt Water Chlorine Generator (SWCG) is an even better insurance policy, because it will keep FC constant when the tub is not in use. That's where I'd spend my money. Nitro - That's an interesting observation. A SWCG sounds like just the thing I'm looking for. My brother got one for a small above ground pool for his kids during the summer. It worked great for him. So ... some questions ... hopefully you (or other forum members) know the answers: 1. Can one retrofit a SWCG to hot tub (more specifically, my Jacuzzi brand J-315)? If yes, where do I buy one and how much does it cost? 2. Besides cost, what are the negatives of an SWCG system? Does the salt water cause deterioration of the hot tub parts - pumps, heater, etc.? 3. My brother doesn't use his SWCG anymore because he recently bought a house with an in-ground pool. He'll give the SWCG unit to me for free. Can I hook it into my hot tub? I thought about just hooking it up next to the tub, but then I've got to run the hoses over the side. This would create a gap between the tub and cover and I'd lose a lot of heat, especially in the winter. Maybe it can be hooked directly into the plumbing beneath the tub housing? Any ideas? - Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shovelhd Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 The problem is, Ozone is not a very good insurance policy, because it doesn't sanitize (i.e. kill pathogens). OK, but if it is supposed to reduce your santizer demand, then won't it make the sanitizer last longer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 I've heard that it's hard to tell if the ozonator is actually working, and that just becasue it's making bubbles doesn't mean it's producing ozone (or possibly enough ozone) to accomplish anything meaningful. Can the experts comment on this? Personally I don't feel that I can trust the thing since I can't test for it. I maintain my sanitizer at the same level with it ir without. I have the same problem wih the mineral stick. Maybe the only benefit is to the guy that got the $23?? This is a great discussion - thanks guys. Yes, that's the other problem I see with ozonators. It's hard to tell if they're working. Although, you should be able to smell it just after opening the tub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 I am also one who does not use an ozonator. I removed it about four years ago and have not looked back since. I do not find that it saved any on chemicals, but did a number on pillows and my blanket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Nitro - That's an interesting observation. A SWCG sounds like just the thing I'm looking for. My brother got one for a small above ground pool for his kids during the summer. It worked great for him. So ... some questions ... hopefully you (or other forum members) know the answers: 1. Can one retrofit a SWCG to hot tub (more specifically, my Jacuzzi brand J-315)? If yes, where do I buy one and how much does it cost? 2. Besides cost, what are the negatives of an SWCG system? Does the salt water cause deterioration of the hot tub parts - pumps, heater, etc.? 3. My brother doesn't use his SWCG anymore because he recently bought a house with an in-ground pool. He'll give the SWCG unit to me for free. Can I hook it into my hot tub? I thought about just hooking it up next to the tub, but then I've got to run the hoses over the side. This would create a gap between the tub and cover and I'd lose a lot of heat, especially in the winter. Maybe it can be hooked directly into the plumbing beneath the tub housing? Any ideas? - Simon Here are a couple different ones. Spa Pilot discussed here and Nexa Spa. IMHO, I'd choose the Nexa Spa, because it has a higher output. The higher output the better, because you don't need to keep as high salt levels. I think additions of Chlorine and/or MPS are still needed during/after use, but the Generator will keep the FC constant when not in use. It's debatable whether the higher salt levels cause corrosion in hot tubs. I don't believe they do. The salt levels are only 1500-3500 ppm which is much lower than sea water etc. I read where if your tub isn't grounded properly the metal will get corroded. However, if your tub isn't grounded properly, corroded metal parts are the least of your worries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 The problem is, Ozone is not a very good insurance policy, because it doesn't sanitize (i.e. kill pathogens). OK, but if it is supposed to reduce your santizer demand, then won't it make the sanitizer last longer? Ozone does help oxidize bather waste, which means the Chlorine will last longer during use. However, Ozone will also destroy Chlorine, so the Chlorine won't last as long when not in use. Ozone will oxidize waste, but won't kill pathogens. Therefore, Ozone by itself is not good enough. You need a sanitizer also (i.e. Chlorine). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Although, you should be able to smell it just after opening the tub. Humans can detect the smell of ozone at levels as low as 3 parts per billion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toolmantoo Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Hello, I'm new to the whole hot tub thing. I bought an Arctic Spa Cub Signature Series with an Onzen ozenator. Had tub delievered in July and was never able to get proper bromine reading. Complained and complained about the problem and was told warrenty work need to be performed to get the system working properly. They came and "fixed" the problem. Filled tub and did get bromine reading finally. However a week later water is cloudy and remains cloudy no matter what I add to water. Going into dealer today to get water tested. I will say that all other eadings have been ok. After buying tub I did do some research into other tubs well Beachcomer, and they absolutely do not recommend an ozanator system. Well anyways we'll see what happens. I'm new to this so maybe things will work out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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