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Light Install Questions..


mart242

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Hi everyone,

I'm having an in-ground pool installed shortly and am planning to do the electrical myself to save quite a bit of $$$ there. it will be inspected and I will follow code (in Ontario, Canada) but the pool light part concerns me. The pool lights that will be installed are the Hayward non-led ones and they'll be put in a steel w/vinyl liner pool. My understanding is that a PVC conduit must go from the light housing to the fixture and the low voltage wire from the light will be ran in there. My questions are:

- is this pvc tube filled with the pool water which is why the transfo has to be higher than the pool? Or is the housing watertight somehow? I guess that's how it makes it easy to eventually replace the entire light itself or give more / less slack to the light if needed?

- the bonding wire gets attached to the light housing and isn't part of the wires that go in the PVC tube, right?

The hayward instructions are quite crappy to look at when you don't have the light in your hands...

Thanks

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The PVC conduit goes from the light niche to a junction box. The conduit is usually filled with water. Sometimes people use silicone caulk where the light cord goes into the back of the niche to prevent water from going into the conduit, but the conduit has to be watertight either way.

The junction box has to above the water level. Where the light cord goes into the junction box, the light cord goes through a rubber stopper that prevents water from going into the junction box. The rubber stopper is mainly to prevent water from going into the junction box due to pressure waves, such as those generated by people jumping into the water.

If non-metallic conduit is used a # 8 AWG grounding conductor must be run through the conduit and connected to the grounding lug inside of the niche. A # 8 AWG bonding conductor is also required to the bonding lug on the outside of the niche.

Make sure to fully bond any concrete decking by using wire mesh or rebar throughout the decking and connecting the bonding wire to the reinforcing metal at multiple points or you may end up with a pool that gives people small electric shocks.

I recommend that you at least get advice from a licensed electrician that has pool experience before you begin to make sure that you are in full compliance with all applicable electrical codes.

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Thanks for the info about the light. That rubber stopper you mention, is that something that home depot should have in stock?

As for the #8 ground wire inside a non-metallic conduit, it says that a 3M potting compound must be used to protect the connection from the effects of salt water.. won't the whole GND wire be subject to the effects of salt water? These clowns should really have the GND as part of the wiring harness for the light.. adding a wire for that is a pain.

For the concrete, you bring a good point. There is nothing regarding that in the Ontario electrical code for pools. The pool will be steel walls and have metal supports for the deck so I guess bonding is usually done by that but it wouldn't hurt to bond from the rebar as well..

My work will definitely be inspected so I'm not worried about code compliance. Planning is the key, which is what I'm currently doing. It's a much more daunting task that wiring a basement though.. (which I did, along with electrical panel relocation and all so I'm not too worried about my capabilities, as long as I do my research before hand..)

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As for the #8 ground wire inside a non-metallic conduit, it says that a 3M potting compound must be used to protect the connection from the effects of salt water.. won't the whole GND wire be subject to the effects of salt water? These clowns should really have the GND as part of the wiring harness for the light.. adding a wire for that is a pain.

The #8 wire is a BOND wire, different than a GROUND wire. The light cord has a ground wire inside the cable. The bond wire CONNECTION inside the niche has to be protected. The bond wire itself will do just fine in the water.

The conduit is supposed to be water tight so it won't leak. If you stuff silicone in it to try to keep water out of it, and you ever have to pull the light cord out, you will have to invent new expletives to cover the situation...

There is a difference between bonding and grounding. After taking an expensive two hour class from Mike Holt (referenced previously) I finally got it... In the olden days the conduit was copper or brass which served as the bond conductor, no #8 wire had to be added.

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http://www.haywardnet.com/products/Manuals...s/Manual282.pdf

(See line 3)

The wire run inside the conduit is a grounding wire. It is in addition to the grounding wire that comes with the light cord. It should be a # 8 wire covered with green insulation.

The wire on the outside of the light niche is the bonding wire. It should be a # 8 solid bare copper wire.

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http://www.haywardnet.com/products/Manuals...s/Manual282.pdf

(See line 3)

The wire run inside the conduit is a grounding wire. It is in addition to the grounding wire that comes with the light cord. It should be a # 8 wire covered with green insulation.

The wire on the outside of the light niche is the bonding wire. It should be a # 8 solid bare copper wire.

That solid #8 is the bonding for the rest of the pool. The #8 inside the conduit is bonding for the niche to junction box. It takes the place of the metallic conduit previously used.

Shall we depend on Hayward as our authority or the National Electrical Code?

"Sec 680.23 {B} (2) Wiring to the forming shell. The conduit that extends directly to the underwater pool wet-niche forming shell must comply with {a} or {b}.

{a} Metal Conduit. Brass or corrosion-resistant rigid metal approved by the authority having jurisdiction.

{b} Nonmetallic Conduit. Nonmetallic conduit containing an 8 AWG insulated (solid or stranded) copper bonding jumper, which must terminate in the forming shell and junction box. The termination of the 8 AWG bonding jumper in the forming shell must be covered with, or encapsulated in, a listed potting compound to protect the connection from the possible deteriorating effect of pool water." (emphasis added)

While grounding and bonding have some similarities the NEC makes a distinction because they serve two different purposes. The bonding is often confused with the grounding and most in the pool business do not know there is a technical difference and therefore use the words interchangably.

If you don't believe me, ask Mike Holt, the walking NEC book.

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The O.P lives in Canada, therefore the NEC does not apply. You have to quote the Canadian Electrical Code.

Furthermore, this Mike Holt reference http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Pooldownload.pdf says:

"The equipment grounding (bonding) conductor for the underwater luminaire must not be spliced, except as permitted in (a) or b. Figure 680-20.

The reference uses the term grounding (bonding), which seems unclear as to which they are talking about. The way that I have seen it done is that the # 8 insulated wire inside the conduit is connected to the grounding wires, not the bonding wire. The bonding lug goes through the niche and both # 8 wires connect to the same lug.

The wire connected to the outside is the equipotential bonding grid wire. See Figure 680-20.

Mike Holt's Comment: "...the NEC often uses the term "ground" when it really means 'bond'"

"Considerations should be given to coordinate the use of ground and bond with the Canadian Code. For example:

Our "Part VI. Equipment Grounding and Equipment Grounding Conductors," in the Canadian Code is "Equipment Bonding."

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/GB...ng~20040121.htm

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The O.P lives in Canada, therefore the NEC does not apply. You have to quote the Canadian Electrical Code.

You quoted the Hayward manual to prove your point, not the Canadian EC.

Furthermore, this Mike Holt reference http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Pooldownload.pdf says:

"The equipment grounding (bonding) conductor for the underwater luminaire must not be spliced, except as permitted in (a) or b. Figure 680-20.

The reference uses the term grounding (bonding), which seems unclear as to which they are talking about.

It is perfectly clear in context as they are talking about the #12 (min.) ground wire, not the #8 bond wire.

The way that I have seen it done is that the # 8 insulated wire inside the conduit is connected to the grounding wires, not the bonding wire. The bonding lug goes through the niche and both # 8 wires connect to the same lug.

It is connected to the junction box. The purpose is to bond the junction box to the light niche. I suppose that is why they call it a "bonding jumper".

The OP said:

"As for the #8 ground wire inside a non-metallic conduit, it says that a 3M potting compound must be used to protect the connection from the effects of salt water.. won't the whole GND wire be subject to the effects of salt water? These clowns should really have the GND as part of the wiring harness for the light.. adding a wire for that is a pain."

I was pointing out that the ground wire is already part of the wiring harness and that the #8 wire he is painfully adding serves a different purpose.

Bottom line, the #12 wire is the ground wire, the #8 wire is the bond wire. They serve different purposes.

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Thanks for all the replies.

I did some more reading and it's getting really confusing. I think that I'll have the work done by an electrician, he seems good and definitely does a good job (recommended by pool builder). it will cost me more in the end but man, the electrical of an underground pool is much more complicated than a basement.. especially in my case with the fence / lights / diving board and all that has to be bonded as well as conduit needed for the wiring and all... plus the inspections and headaches that come with it when you don't know all the fine details of the code. I think that I'll just pay the electrician to do it and avoid the hassle. I can't really afford to spend 3 days fixing electrical and waiting for the inspector while the pool builder is waiting to pour concrete over the bonding wire.

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Don't get too discouraged by the replies given here. IMO the hardest part of that job is dealing with the potting compound in the tight space of the light niche. That shiz is real messy.

See, my understanding is that in Ontario, that's not even required. My research indicates that no one appears to do this. Hell, even 3M Canada doesn't have that potting compound in stock.

The other thing that discouraged me a bit what that I thought that I knew the code "well enough" to attempt the work but the electrician asked me a few questions to see how I'd do the work and told me right away why it would fail the inspection. Things like:

- I would have thought that a single bonding point to the vinyl coated chainlink fence would be enough but it turns out that it's not the case since the top rain can't be assumed to make a reliable connection

- Even though I'd run the electrical wire to outside in a PVC conduit to LB outside, I had forgotten that a box must be inside the house as well (not LB) so that the conduit can't be pulled out if someone pulls the LB outside

- For proper bonding in different spots, a wire mesh is added the bonding wire is attached to it

I guess I'll play it safe. I'd hate to have one of my kid injured because I wanted to save 1000$ on the electrical work required (I'd still have to buy the breakers / pvc / wire / ...)

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My suggestion? Do it the way you think/interpret the code best, and if it gets turned down, the inspector will tell you whats wrong. So, you'll know what to fix to make it totally safe. Be warned tho, fixing may incur more cost. I think its worthwhile if your willing to learn, as well as save a buck (maybe).

P.S. Don't forget, when wiring the fixture, to set the light fixture on the deck so you have enough cord to change a bulb safely when the pool is full.

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Inspectors around here are known to tell you "it fails, fix X" even though you have X, Y and Z that are incorrect so you fix it and then call again, waste another day (since 24 - 48 hours notice is required) for him to show up only to be told to fix "Y" this time. As a homeowner, you're also at the bottom of the queue and MUST wait for the inspector to show up. Good contractors are on the "pre-approved" list and don't need the inspection if the inspector can't show up.

My two young kids also make it hard to find some time to do the work myself.. so doing it twice (and going 50 times to home depot to buy whatever piece is missing) isn't that great..

Now don't get me wrong. I'd still like to do the work and am still feeling ripped off by paying a damn electrician to do that work...

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Now don't get me wrong. I'd still like to do the work and am still feeling ripped off by paying a damn electrician to do that work...

If you think about the electricians expertise, not making 50 trips to HD, and waiting for inspections then maybe you won't feel so ripped off. This is clearly a specialty area that requires specialty knowledge. If you have the time perhaps you can help him with some of it and learn more of the details you don't currently know. Pick his brain about anything & everything, perhaps it will all pay off in the long run.

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I agree with Billp. There is no reason to feel bad about hiring a professional to do this for you. It does take experience, expertise and training. A good electrician is well worth the price. Your family and friends will be safe and the job will be done properly. Pool electrical is a specialty among electricians. Many electricians can't even do pool work unless they are specifically trained for it.

Perhaps you could negotiate a reduced price by working for the electrician on a few jobs, or just on your job. You can do much of the work on your pool under the guidance of the electrician.

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