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Guest fmotz

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The second test was done by the universities of Colorado and Arizona, called the Tong and Rogers Report.

Here is an excerpt from the report. "a fully insulated spa {full foam} makes no attempt to recover and use waste heat." (Tong and Rogers 1996). "...the performance of an insulating system which makes use of a thermal barrier, generated by waste heat rejected from the motors and pumps, in an enclosed air cavity around the tub is superior to a system which simply insulates the tub directly."

Whenever Jim_The_Jim brings up “Tong and Rogers” it seriously reminds me of Cheech and Chong.

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Whenever Jim_The_Jim brings up “Tong and Rogers” it seriously reminds me of Cheech and Chong.

Very funny!

:D

I'll bet Dr. Rogers and Dr Tong, would find that funny too.

There have been other tests done by dealers, but those are not independent.

My friend up in Wyoming did a side by side with a Sundance and Arctic. The Sundance was 30% more in freezing winter, according to his test.

I am falling behind on my test. I can't get off the phone with customers buying spas. I got the camera, and the software to run the 24 hour web cam on the two spas, but that is as far as I have gotten.

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There are two different tests. The Alberta Research Council test to which I refer and the "Cost Comparison Summary" to which you refer. Of the two, the CCS to me is suspect. It doens't even name the competing spa although another forum member told me it was a Sundance.

Yes they did name the too spas sundance and hot springs, we also tested a Cal-Spa in this study. The Cal-Spa was 5 years older than the other spas. Funny thing is they were all close to the same efficiency figures. The temperature was not 7 F. it was 47 F.

P.S. I would think that if the consumer is most important, would you or would you not wonder why Arctic uses questionable tactics.

TBK.

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What a moronic statement. The warranties on the shells from the major manufacturers are typically 7-10 years. Jim states that the shells only last 5-7 years so under his stats you'd expect catestrophic failure rates but Mr. Wizard then says they have a 3% failure rate. He might want to get his random/made up on the spot statictics straight before he posts them LOL.

I suggest that you take more time when you read what I write, because it is very clearly written.

The ABS acrylic shells have 100% failure in that they develop surface cracks in time. Most of the warranties do not cover surface cracks, and are stated as being normal. If you try to repair those cracks, they will come back, because there is no fiberglass under the crack to support the repair. There is just the ABS plastic.

About 3% acccording to my personal study, before 8 years have cracks that break through and leak, because the shell has no fiberglass behind it.

There were four of them on this forum before it moved to this format. One of the guys was really upset because he was just out of the warranty, when it cracked out. I saved all of those posts.

By the way ABS plastic is used in low pressure sewer drains in your house. It is considered too weak to be used for pressure pipe.

I wish that you were more civil and could just make comments about the topic, instead of personal attacks.

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This is shocking to me to read! I'm aware of a company using a structure like this, that has a 20 year non-prorated warranty on it's shell! (pro-rated, meaning after 5-7 years only PART of the cost of the shell repair is covered. And non-prorated, meaning 100% of the labor and repair costs are covered for the life of the warranty) 20 years is a loooong time... leave the spa in your will! Technically, your right... over a long enough period of time, I guess everything has 100% failure rate. Exept for Twinkies- I think their half-life is about 250 years! :o But when a company offers to build a whole new tub if it fails... (with the stats you provided @ 3% failure) a company would go out of business faster than a one armed monkey reaching for a banana falls out of a tree! :rolleyes: And yet, this company has been in business for 29 plus years. I am Going to have to disagree with you on that point. But you are right about the delamination problem being eliminated using this process as the two different materials are bonded very well. Most shell problems I've heard of are from delamination, bubbling, blistering... leading to cracks.

There are many different opinions on this subject and it is up to the smart consumer to read the fine print to really be protected.

The only shells that have a true 20 year warranty are those made out of fiberglass, because it has about a 10,000 year half life in the dump. Most companies never ever expect to have any problems with them, because after the first week or two of use any manufacturing defects will start to show.

Surface cracks are considered to be normal. The number of surface cracks on an ABS substrate shell is about 10 to one comparison ABS/Acrylic VS Acrylic/Vinylester/ Fiberglass.

How many people do you know who have a 7 year old spa with surface cracks all over, expect to get any warranty service? They don't even know where the warranty papers are.

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Yes they did name the too spas sundance and hot springs, we also tested a Cal-Spa in this study. The Cal-Spa was 5 years older than the other spas. Funny thing is they were all close to the same efficiency figures. The temperature was not 7 celcius. it was 47 celcius.

P.S. I would think that if the consumer is most important, would you or would you not wonder why Arctic uses questionable tactics.

TBK.

Wow, I would think at 116.6 degrees F, that's 47 Celcius, the water would have no problem staying hot. I would think it might even rise.

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Again,,,lots of opinions and facts of how the spa retains heat....................who gives a crap if it holds heat if costs 8 times more to Run the system(heat and filtration)

Theoreticly you can have a spa with no insulation and run a very effecient heating system 24/7 to keep it warm.. And still cost less to run than a well insulated system that pulls over 30 amps to heat

C,mon guys really, whats the point ???

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D1 has a lifetime warranty on its shell as well.......and bottom line is it costs abot 15-16 dollars a month to run one of their largest tubs (400Gal 6 person)

Do you really care what type of insulation you have if it costs $50 a month to run? (aside from noise)

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Again,,,lots of opinions and facts of how the spa retains heat....................who gives a crap if it holds heat if costs 8 times more to Run the system(heat and filtration)

Theoreticly you can have a spa with no insulation and run a very effecient heating system 24/7 to keep it warm.. And still cost less to run than a well insulated system that pulls over 30 amps to heat

C,mon guys really, whats the point ???

The use of warm air barrier, stops all the heat losses while is stops almost all of the use of the heater. The idea is to NOT run the heater, but rather use the natrual warm air given off by the filtration pump. Air is 1341 times less expensive to heat that water, and a small amount of warm air will stop a huge heat loss from a spa.

Full foam spas were developed back in the late 1970's. The use of foam for a structure to hold a spa together is simply a short cut in manufacturing. It costs 300% more to insulate a spa properly. It costs more to do a fiberglass shell.

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D1 has a lifetime warranty on its shell as well.......and bottom line is it costs abot 15-16 dollars a month to run one of their largest tubs (400Gal 6 person)

Do you really care what type of insulation you have if it costs $50 a month to run? (aside from noise)

MSSI, The numbers that D1 provide are not measured at the freezing point they were taken at 68F what if it were at 32F. That number would be alot higher about $29 a month at least that is what most people who I sold D1 to say. But D1 does make a great spa.

TBK.

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I installed and serviced hot tubs for a few years. From my expierience Dimension One tubs were the best. I would occasionally have to replace a heater, control panel, flow switch ect... but not nearly as much as the other brands...

Definetly look for a tub that has a low wattage circulation pump like D1...Rather than running a 4HP pump just to filter and heat your tub when your not in it...I think D1 has a lifetime warranty on the shell and 5-7 years on misc. parts and labor...they are a little more expensive initially. But you get what you pay for DONT GO TO HOME DEPOT FOR A HOT TUB....

I Serviced at least 15 of the major brands and I was the one hearing all the complaints..D1 by far had the fewest

No I dont work for D1 I am just and Electrician out here in PA

Hi, I intend on buying my next spa THIS WEEK (after a customer service nightmare with Hydro Spa) from one of the local dealers, I am down to Master Spa or D1....which one would you buy, given your experience...and taking into consideration I share a house with two other single females....we barely know how to operate a power drill, never mind anything technical or complicated? :unsure:

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Hi, I intend on buying my next spa THIS WEEK (after a customer service nightmare with Hydro Spa) from one of the local dealers, I am down to Master Spa or D1....which one would you buy, given your experience...and taking into consideration I share a house with two other single females....we barely know how to operate a power drill, never mind anything technical or complicated? :unsure:

The D1, will be a better choice given the two options.

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The use of warm air barrier, stops all the heat losses while is stops almost all of the use of the heater. The idea is to NOT run the heater, but rather use the natrual warm air given off by the filtration pump. Air is 1341 times less expensive to heat that water, and a small amount of warm air will stop a huge heat loss from a spa.

Full foam spas were developed back in the late 1970's. The use of foam for a structure to hold a spa together is simply a short cut in manufacturing. It costs 300% more to insulate a spa properly. It costs more to do a fiberglass shell.

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So the idea is to use the heat from filtration? fancy way to "spin" or justify running a 4hp 5000 to 7000 watt motor just to filter.......again side by side running costs to keep D1 spa at 104 degrees is going to be much less than a spa that doesnt use a low wattage circulation pump!

D1 filters and produces ozone 24/7 combined with their ultrapure pack (or whatever) its called you eliminate the use of messing with costly chemicals........a cap full of shock one or twice a week for grins is about all you will need....

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MSSI, The numbers that D1 provide are not measured at the freezing point they were taken at 68F what if it were at 32F. That number would be alot higher about $29 a month at least that is what most people who I sold D1 to say. But D1 does make a great spa.

TBK.

The "Energy Charts" used in advertising are also misleading.

If you read some of them at the bottom in the fine print. It states that the spa was used at 68 degrees, and just a short amount of use per week, and at 6 cents per kilowatt hour.

That means that you would have to move the spa to Monterey Califorina to get close to a 68 degrees ambeint. Run a very long extension cord to Minnesota to get the electricity at 6 cents per kilowatt and use the spa for short periods of time.

At the top they place huge numbers like $15.27

At the bottom is the super fine print showing, 68 degrees and 6 cents and the low time usage of the spa.

The premise is that people tend to believe it when it is printed on some energy card that looks like the ones used on refrigerators.

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D1 is absolutly the better choice........Two other females huh? Ill come over and show you how to "work the spa" lol......

MSSI: You seem to really know your stuff, going head to head with nice Jim like that....it looks like it's getting close to a TKO out there! Is D1 the best there is, have you owned one? Any caveats for us technically challenged but want to the do the right thing to make sure our spa doesn't develop issues and lasts a long time?? (for New Engalnd...year round use) or is there a better spa that I just don't know about?

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I live in PA.... I have logged over 5000 service calls on spas and never noticed an issue with a spa being outside in the winter aside from fading on the cedar skirts....Also one more note on the previous comment.

Someone else said its "cheaper to heat air" he was talking about the benefit of running a high hp pump to filter and reping the extra heat given off.....Does anyone know what the biggest enemies of electronic components are???? you guessed it HEAT and MOISTURE.....So again D1 Draws the hot air from the motor/electric compartment for the air "bubbles" (heating water and cooling components) Runs a low wattage pump to filter and heat which also helps heat build up in the compartment.....No I dont own a d1 but if I was going to buy a spa that is the one I would get.......in 5 years servicing Spas I found them to be the best..Thats not just from a service standpoint that includes ease of use/chemicle maintenence etc. I do not know of a better tub than D1... is it possible there is one out there?....Yes, If you find it let me know

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I live in PA.... I have logged over 5000 service calls on spas and never noticed an issue with a spa being outside in the winter aside from fading on the cedar skirts....Also one more note on the previous comment.

Someone else said its "cheaper to heat air" he was talking about the benefit of running a high hp pump to filter and reping the extra heat given off.....Does anyone know what the biggest enemies of electronic components are???? you guessed it HEAT and MOISTURE.....So again D1 Draws the hot air from the motor/electric compartment for the air "bubbles" (heating water and cooling components) Runs a low wattage pump to filter and heat which also helps heat build up in the compartment.....No I dont own a d1 but if I was going to buy a spa that is the one I would get.......in 5 years servicing Spas I found them to be the best..Thats not just from a service standpoint that includes ease of use/chemicle maintenence etc. I do not know of a better tub than D1... is it possible there is one out there?....Yes, If you find it let me know

Wow MSSI...I think I'm sold! I have been on this site for hours upon hours and doing research online, and it is almost shocking to me that no one can meet your challenge to name a better spa than D1. I met with the local Master Spa dealer at length the other day, and my final question to them was "Why should I buy your spa and not D1's spa down the street?"....He just sort of looked down, chuckled, and said "I can't think of a reason why, D1 makes a great spa."....That's when I drove the 1/4 mile down the street to schedule my D1 wet test!

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I have never sat in a master spa. but I did look at them on their website. D1 is a far higher quality spa...I am sure you will find it more comfy as well....the Chairman2 or the Diplomat are my favorite.............Now you gotta choose which D1 right? sorry...

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Yes they did name the too spas sundance and hot springs, we also tested a Cal-Spa in this study. The Cal-Spa was 5 years older than the other spas. Funny thing is they were all close to the same efficiency figures. The temperature was not 7 F. it was 47 F.

P.S. I would think that if the consumer is most important, would you or would you not wonder why Arctic uses questionable tactics.

TBK.

The Cost Comparison Study on the Arctic website has an unnamed "foam filled spa" and it is not represented as an independent study. I'd like to see more information but it's not there. Most people wouldn't view $17 and $21 dollars per month as being that different in the context of a big purchase like this. For me, the ARC study was more of a "it doesn't cost any more to run Arctic than any other high quality spa", and you have the advantage of accessibility if there ever are problems. All that would have meant nothing if they didn't win the wet test.

I still see it like this. At least in the states, Arctic is relatively new. You are competing against a bunch of folks who would love nothing more than to see you fail, including dealers on these forums. A HUGE percentage of people don't wet test. You better be able to differentiate your product. Arctic has nice pitch for those who choose not to get wet, and people buy on it. A fiberglass floor, thick cover and thick self supporting shell tell a nice story. So does "mine insulates just as well" AND you can get at all the parts. SOLD! (without a wet test) That just has to get under the skin of competing companies and dealers who can try to counter with "you don't really need that" "they suck" etc but then sound petty or negative. Do you need it? Well if they hadn't won the wet test, it would not have sold us......I would have purchased any of several other well known brands otherwise.

By the way, since you were there, why don't you post the results in their entirety. I'd sincerely like to see them.

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