Decontamination

[dlleno]

I can vouch the the multiple purge recommendation.  I have personally coached others through as many as 10 ahh some purges. It takes patience and the understanding that stuff hides in the pipes and can take several tries to get it.  I'm always astonished at the accusation that ahh some itself contributes contaminants just for the impressive visual impact.  After correcting the issues of biofilm in my own spa   I  was able to achieve an ahh some dosed vessel, with filters installed, releasing no new material.  That's a clean spa! 

[RobinDz]

Thanks again for replying. I added the bleach last week to a small mason jar with flakes and about an inch of water. About a week later, the flakes still remain. 

If it is WWM, should I be able to maintain a Bromine level?

The water is also crystal clear, and only turns slightly hazy (and fizzes) when I run the tub with both pumps on high, and the air turned on. It clears up within a few minutes of turning the pumps off. 

[arobbert]

I still think it's bio film. That stuff can be suborn. It's also possible that it's some kind of scale build up.  I would continue the purges. Maybe someone with more expertise can chime in here.

[dlleno]

Patience and keep purging!  If you are still getting bad guys that means they are  hiding in there.  Make sure to raise you FC along with ahhsome dosing.  You might also extend the ahhsome soak time and increase agitation.  Perhaps fewer purges with longer soak time 

YOu can measure sanitizer decay rate.  Dose with oxidizer to 10ppm FC equivalent.    remove all automatic dosing and oxidation  apparati (including ozone)  and cover.  24 hours later measure sanitizer level.  With a, squeaky clean spa you should, get 10 percent Decay.  Rule of thumb is 25 percent.  If you can't disable ozone the decay rate will be less (ozone oxidizes bromide) 

 

If your decay rate is very low then that is evidence of a benign contaminant.  Not proof just contributing evidence.  

[RobinDz]

An update on the progress... and a quick msg of thanks to all of you that have taken time to help out!

I added the Clorox to try to get to 10 ppm. Got the tub to 22 ppm. Waited 24 hours and the chlorine dropped to 18.5 using the FAS method at the pool store. So not a significant drop. 

Since then I have been able to use a floater with bromine tabs and my ozonstor to maintain a fairly high level of bromine, despite the floater only being open to one or two, and having approx two people soak for a half hour each night. 

Im not sure if this means I don’t have WWM, but not having a high chlorine demand, having the flakes not disappear in bleach in the mason jar and getting very little out with another dose of Ahhsome (third dose) makes me think it’s domething else. Does this make sense?

Could it be a buildup of calcium in the pipes at this point?

I do notice that the water fizzes, especially with the air controls turned on. After turning the pumps and air off, I get these “floating” spots on the water (see picture below). Is this an indicator of calcium or WWM? https://ibb.co/fxscda

Thanks again to all of those offering to help out!

[Tackleberry]

I am in the process of buying a used tub and reading this thread has my head spinning.

My question for now is does Ahhsome eliminate the need to follow the decon procedures or is it in addition to super chlorinating?

I'll worry about everything else after I actually get the thing hooked up!

[Ahhsomeguy]

Your question is a very good one.  What we recommend for the decontamination is the following.  Remove any pillows that you may have I  the tub. Place your filter(s) inside the tub so we deep-clean them as well. With water that is heated to at least 90 degrees add the required amount of Ahh-Some gel.  Be sure that there is sanitizer present in your water because the Ahh-Some is going to dislodge and disperse biofilm into your tub in very short order, usually within minutes.  We want the sanitizer present to make sure the bacteria is neutralized.  Usually, 20 minutes so all it takes to do the job.  You may see loads of brown frothy water and you will notice gunk sticking to the acrylic or tub surface that seems sticky.  Wipe this up as soon as you can to eliminate the job of hard cleaning later.  Biofilms are comprised of polysaccharides, sugar molecules, among other bacteria, and when these are left clinging to the tub surface for extended periods of time, usually a few hours, they can be very difficult to wipe off.  Most people use a microfiber cloth to wipe any remnants as they see them form. Open all jets and be sure that the Ahhsomized water touches every nook and cranny of your tub interior and all jets and waterfalls.  Now, drain the tub, yes it is ok to drain on grass, shrubs, septic or whatever, rinse thoroughly and wipe Clean. Hose of hot tub filter(s) and put them aside for now.  Refill the tub making sure that water is added directly into where the filter(s) are placed.  We want to be sure that the pump has water in it so it primes quickly and not run dry.  Place filter(s) into filter well after the tub is pumping water through the jets.  Be sure to maintain proper water chemistry parameters and "purge" your hot tub at least twice per year.  This will drastically reduce any water chemistry issues and help alleviate high sanitizer demand.

 

 

[onetaste]

On 8/10/2009 at 4:23 AM, Nitro said:

No. You want to add Spa Flush by itself. Spa Flush is an enzyme that may be killed off by the high chlorine level.

In that case, can't we run Spa Flush for the required period and then super shock after that in the same water? I am on rain water only and have very limited supply.

[dlleno]

This is why i (personally) do not recommend "enzyme" products -- their use, and the recommendations of their respective mfgs -- demonstrate a less-than-sufficient knowledge of biofilms and how to contain them. We know that biofilms are not only "bad guys" in their own right, but that they can also provide safe harbor protection for some seriously nefarious contaminants that require Chlorine to kill.  If the  "enzyme" really did release such biofilms, and the bacterial contaminants hidden within them, then why in Gods Green Earth would you settle for process that lets them live and spread via atomization for any length of time? 

To make the best use of the enzyme itself -- yes let it do its work without chlorine.  it won't release anything of consequence, but it will do "something" that is better than nothing at all.  However, to really stick it to the bad guys you have to use a real purge product who's manufacturer understands biofilms and recommends a kill-dose of chlorine along with the purge product itself.  

With the product known as "ahh-some" you can perform the entire process in one step.  When your water is warm and ready to drain, dose with ahh-some and also with a kill dose of chlorine as well (bleach).  follow the label directions on the ahh-some jar.  My own process differs just a little from the mfg in that to prove that I have a clean spa (after cleaning the filters in the vessel) I re-fill the spa,  put the filters back into their normal positions, and run an ahh-some dosed spa until there is no further contaminant release (I wipe up stuff with a microfiber cloth).  yes this takes more water.... and my water bill reflects that lol 

"death to biofilms!"

https://boisediesel.com/blog/2016/7/spa-purge

 

[Rob1984qp]

On 12/13/2016 at 9:44 PM, dlleno said:

The extra exposure to high chlorine level will be proportionally hard on equipment, i.e. pumps, seals, filters, etc.  I'm not aware of any precise predictions of equipment life; suffice to say you should alleviate the CL load as soon as practical after the decon has done its work.  this can be done via draining or, if you can't drain right away, dose with hydrogen peroxide to neutralize the CL and then the problem disappears  

@RDspaguy this is the one. Looks like I'm going to have to drain. I'll giver another 1hour to destroy those nasties and set her to drain over the evening 🙂

[RDspaguy]

👍

[Rob1984qp]

Anybody tested this stuff? It has the Quats mentioned in ahh-some and serum....

https://www.xo2.com.au/xo2-spakling-spa-cleaner-sanitiser-treatment

[dlleno]

There's going to be some quat bandwagon effect as different mfgs suddenly wake up and try to ride someone elses shirt tails.  It takes more than a few fear quotes and references to things we already know about to convince me that they truly understand the nuances of hot tubs and portable spas and how to control biofilms in them. 

Quats are used all the time in restaurants for surface cleaning, for example,  so there's realky nothing new here.  For me to test this i would need (1) epa registration which verifies that the product is safe and effective and that the label tells the truth and (2) demostrated primary knowledge of biofilms in the applications we care about, not just repeating what others have said.

Those of us who have really studied these things have a rather high standard .  Just personally i don't have interest in it, but if the two conditions are met then ill take them seriously.   

Are they epa registered for residential spas and hot tubs?

[RDspaguy]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Ahh-some works, we all know it, so why mess around with some unknown follower? Cheap means cheap, if you follow me. 

[Rob1984qp]

All above my pay grade lol.

I just did a Google for quats and hot tub and seen this. Don't recollect seeing it anywhere so thought I'd give it a shout out.

Heres what I dragged down from their site seems pretty in depth.

Problem here in the UK is getting hold of ahh-some is quite hard. Im all with you on this is by far amazing, I have two £15 aqua finesse pucks sat in the cupboard and I especially loved your comment that they are "worthless" haha. Love your blog putting ahhsome head to head. Wishing I could get some serum but seems impossible to get this product in the UK.

XO2 SpaKling SDS.pdf

[wbryce]

Quick question regarding Nitros approach which I've used for years and its worked perfectly.  

When doing the refill after the decon stage, can you balance the water when its cold or must you wait until its upto a decent temp? Our ground water comes out at roughly 8c.

Previously I've waited until tub is upto 28-30c but wondering if I can increase TA/PH to its target a bit sooner.  

[waterbear]

42 minutes ago, wbryce said:

Quick question regarding Nitros approach which I've used for years and its worked perfectly.  

When doing the refill after the decon stage, can you balance the water when its cold or must you wait until its upto a decent temp? Our ground water comes out at roughly 8c.

Previously I've waited until tub is upto 28-30c but wondering if I can increase TA/PH to its target a bit sooner.  

Depends on the particular test kit you are using. Best bet is to contact the manufacturer of your test kit to determine if there is a temperature range that is needed for accurate results For example the LaMotte ColorQ wants the water sample to be between 21 to 27 degrees C when you test. Lower temperatures can cause high readings and warmer temperatures can cause low readings. The Taylor CYA test is temperature dependent and the sample should be around 24 degrees C for accurate results.

The obvious solution is to take your water sample in a closed container, bring it indoors, and let it come to room temperature before testing.

[rightcoastgirl]

On 3/30/2009 at 8:39 PM, Nitro said:

This topic comes up quite a bit, so I thought I'd post a How To guide.

Decontamination is the process of Super Shocking to Kill and Oxidize everything in your tub. There are two reasons why you would want to do this. One is your tub contains an excess amount of organic waste, and is using large amounts of sanitizer. The other is you have bacteria actively growing in your tub that has formed a protective shield (Biofilm), and cannot be killed from normal sanitation levels. The former is easy to tell by measuring sanitation levels, but the latter is more difficult (usually not until after you start getting sick).

This may sound extreme to some, but I recommend decontaminating any used tub that changes hands. You have no way of knowing how a used tub was maintained before you got it. Why chance getting sick?!? You have nothing to lose, and nice clean, safe tub to gain.

So how do you do a decontamination?!? Here's how.

1. Use an enzyme to clean out your pipes, such as Swirl Away, Spa Flush etc. Add this product, run the jets 30 mins and let sit overnight. It will clean out your pipes and deposit the gunk along the water line. Wipe the waterline with a dry paper towel or cloth. Make sure you remove your filter before adding this product. Better yet, buy a new filter.

2. The next day, drain your tub and clean the walls with some leftover enzyme from step one.

3. Refill tub as high as possible (above the normal waterline) with fresh water, and install filter.

4. Balance your water at this point. TA = 80 ppm and pH = 7.2. If your pH is too far out of range, it will decrease the effectiveness of the Chlorine.

5. Add 50 ppm FC using Regular Clorox 6% Unscented Bleach. That's approx. 1/4 gal (32 oz) per 350 gal tub.

6. Run all jets and air features for 30-60 mins. You can turn the air on and off every 10 mins, to help clean the air lines.

7. Cut the power and drain the tub. This water is highly chlorinated, so you may want to keep it away from vegetation.

8. While the tub is draining clean the cover and all shell surfaces with the super chlorinated water. Then rinse well.

9. Refill tub with fresh water.

10. Balance water.

Test your Chlorine Demand to make sure the Decontamination worked by doing the following.

11. Shock with Dichlor (Stabilized Chlorine) to 10 ppm FC. Don't use the tub, let the jets run 10 mins, cover and let sit 24 hours.

12. Check FC. If FC is 5 ppm or above, you're ok. If it's zero, your tub is still using excess Chlorine, and needs to be decontaminated again (Absent the Spa Flush). However, this should be rare.

After this procedure your tub should be clean like new. If you maintain your water properly, your should never have to do this again.

Happy Clean Tubing!

What if I forgot to adjust pH and TA before adding the bleach in step 5?  is it too late?  do i start over or keep going?

[RDspaguy]

Keep going.

[rightcoastgirl]

I kept going. Washed down the sides and cover, added equal amount, or slightly less, of 3% peroxide, then drained it. Wiped down the surfaces below the waterline after it was empty. Refill in progress 🙂

[SteveOL]

I seem to have an ongoing issue with an annoying hot tub rash. Psuedomonas detected with a lab analysis. Only one in the family who has a problem. Would one purge with a pipe cleaner do the trick or is it worth doing it twice? And is changing the filters necessary? I plan to but of course my store has them on order. I'm happy to wait until they're in if it is necessary.

Also, the pipe cleaner I have available has Citric acid and Sulfamic acid as the active ingredients. Hopefully they will do the job. Ahh-some not available in Australia.