Silkbalance

[chem geek]

It is very easy for any manufacturer to measure hot tub water quality with bacterial tests under conditions of no bather load and find that they pass tests if they have something in the water that kills bacteria faster than it can reproduce. That is not the same thing as killing bacteria more quickly so that it prevents person-to-person transmission. The EPA DIS/TSS-12 standard is used for spas as well as pools but only commercial/public pools/spas are required to pass this standard. There are no regulations or laws requiring specific sanitation levels in a residential pool or spa. You can soak in raw sewage as far as the government is concerned. There are regulations, called FIFRA rules, that limit what can be claimed on labels and instructions so one cannot say they are a disinfectant or sanitizer unless they have passed the EPA standard so products you buy for the residential market that claim to be sanitizers/disinfectants will have specific dosage instructions that pass EPA DIS/TSS-12. Being registered with the EPA as a pesticide is NOT the same thing as algicides that do not kill bacteria quickly are still EPA registered pesticides such as copper or silver or MPS used alone.

There are only three EPA registered disinfectant used for pools that pass EPA DIS/TSS-12: chlorine, bromine and Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB. For spas, there is an additional approved disinfectant of Nature2 with MPS. It is the silver ion in conjunction with MPS at hot spa temperatures that becomes an effective sanitizer, though the instructions still state that chlorine should be added "as needed" to maintain water quality (i.e. to keep the water clear).

In this list of hot tub rash/itch/lung incidents I compiled from this forum a while back, there were no mentions of Silkbalance, but then there weren't many posters using that system as far as I could tell. The most common cause seemed to be low or no chlorine (or bromine) or too long a use of Dichor (so building up CYA reducing chlorine effectiveness).

[hottublady]

Rusty,

Do you know of anyone who has used Silkbalance with a biguanide sanitizer? What do you think of the idea? How often do you end up doing a complete water change with Silkbalance? When you use it with chlorine, how much of a chlorine smell do you notice? I use my spa almost daily and sometimes twice a day, and when I tried chlorine or bromide, I found that, after a few days, my skin started to smell like those chemicals. What is your experience?

Thanks!

Citysoaker

Hi Citysoaker,

I don't know what biguanide is so can't help you there... but I'm a user of silk balance (hot tub currently drained for summer) and I never smell any chlorine or chemical smell in the water or on me. Several months back I had one of my girlfriends over and we used my hot tub and the first thing she said when she got in was wow that feels different. She is real chemical sensetive and noticed the difference immediatley. She use to be a hair dresser but had to quit because of all the harsh chemicals (hair dyes and stuff). IMO I think it would be worth a try and I think they have a money back guarantee in a certain amount of time, again I don't know for sure but I think they do..

hottublady

[waterbear]

I am going to guess that biguanide is not going to be compatible because biguanide systems are not compatible with metal based systems and silkbalance does contain metal (silver).

[2000HSSowner]

Anyone with feedback regarding salt sanitizing systems?

Thanks for your time,

ME

Portland, OR

Salt sanitizing systems (AKA salt water chlorine or bromine generators) are either chlorine or bromine. The difference is what salts are added. If you only add sodium pr potassium chloride then the system generates chlorine sanitizer. If you add sodium bromide to the mix the system generates bromine sanitizer. Both work by generating the sanitizer by electrolysis of the salt solution in the tub. Salt water generators have been used in swimming pools since ther 60s and are not new.

ME -

The ACE system from Hot Springs is very new (read different) and does far more than any pool or traditional salt system has done in the past and it is revolutionizing the way people approach water care. Many Hot Springs owners who are not ready to trade-in on new though are going to Silk Balance as an equally easy alternative. I think what some of these posters are overlooking is that today's hot tub owner is looking for EASE and are willing to pay a little more for it. It's not so much about the fact of whether you have to add sanitizer as a partner to products, or if you have to shock "x" times per week, it's about the EASE of maintaining your spa so that it is enjoyable & ready to use. If it's easy, enjoyable and entertaining (read - not a chore to maintain) then we have created an advocate for the industry. People who enjoy using their spa breed more people who will purchase spas and most people who buy the right spa never regret doing it & wonder why they didn't do it sooner.

Have a great day & Happy Soaking

Chad

[Mikey_in_NY]

ME -

The ACE system from Hot Springs is very new (read different) and does far more than any pool or traditional salt system has done in the past and it is revolutionizing the way people approach water care. Many Hot Springs owners who are not ready to trade-in on new though are going to Silk Balance as an equally easy alternative. I think what some of these posters are overlooking is that today's hot tub owner is looking for EASE and are willing to pay a little more for it. It's not so much about the fact of whether you have to add sanitizer as a partner to products, or if you have to shock "x" times per week, it's about the EASE of maintaining your spa so that it is enjoyable & ready to use. If it's easy, enjoyable and entertaining (read - not a chore to maintain) then we have created an advocate for the industry. People who enjoy using their spa breed more people who will purchase spas and most people who buy the right spa never regret doing it & wonder why they didn't do it sooner.

Have a great day & Happy Soaking

Chad

You're right that for many owners the ease of maintaining a hot tub is a big consideration, however I think it's a little premature to say the ACE system is "revolutionizing" water maintenance. As Waterbear said the end product of this system is still chlorine or bromine - so what's revolutionary about it? It's old technology, but arguably a small, incremental improvement upon traditional hot tub sanitization.

Aside from this what's so difficult about adding a bromine tablet every now and then, or a few oz of chlorine every day or two? Hardly rocket science.

[SpaChick]

Hey, new to the forum. I was interested in carrying this product Silk Balance but does anyone have a clue how to get in touch with them. It's crazy hard to get in contact with someone there! Thanks for the info!

[PoolSpaGuy30]

Hey, new to the forum. I was interested in carrying this product Silk Balance but does anyone have a clue how to get in touch with them. It's crazy hard to get in contact with someone there! Thanks for the info!

where are you located? I can contact my rep and have them or your regional rep give you a call, you can pm me your info if you like

[isp4265]

After reading this long post, it has captured my curiosity and I am thinking of trying this product on my next fill (March). I fill my tub with well water. In very simplistic terms, would I be ok to use silkbalance if I shock after each use(which I do now with SpaGuard enhanced shock) and then once a week(SpaGuard cholorinating concentrate)or just after each use? FYI I have a 2010 HS Vista and use the Nature 2 stick.

[SpaChick]

I am located in Washington State. Wentchee. I keep trying to call them and leave messages and I keep getting the same machine and no response. I have tried to contact them through their website as well but I am getting no feedback. We were hoping to have the product and have tested it before our Home and Garden show on the 11th of February so we could start offering it to our customers. I think it's going to be a little late for that at this point. But either way we are very curious about the product. Chim Chimney Pool, Fireplace and Spa company, cherise@ccfps.com Wenatchee WA.

[PoolSpaGuy30]

After reading this long post, it has captured my curiosity and I am thinking of trying this product on my next fill (March). I fill my tub with well water. In very simplistic terms, would I be ok to use silkbalance if I shock after each use(which I do now with SpaGuard enhanced shock) and then once a week(SpaGuard cholorinating concentrate)or just after each use? FYI I have a 2010 HS Vista and use the Nature 2 stick.

I'd go salt system before silk balance and day of the week and twice on Tuesdays

[PFC5]

Why doesn't anyone who uses this post test results of bacteria levels and other tests of what is in the water that could harm them if they do not know? I am not one to blindly trust ANY company based on what their marketing (liars by trade IMO) departments say.

It sounds interesting if it actually works and keeps water safe, but so far after two pages on this by mostly people who are selling it saying it works but how do they know if they do not test for all the things that could make you sick? What dealer would risk the lawsuits of people wet testing their spas with this in it that have not had complete testing done to protect not only their business but customers who wet test their spas in the showroom and customers they sell this product to? So I assume dealers are testing for any chance to be sued in our unfortunately very litigious society but they do not waht to share such results. Why not? Or have you NOT tested for all possible diseases that can grow/spread to others sharing this water.

I want to here about complete testing done with an active spa being used to know it is safe before I subject my family/friends to it in my spa.

[chem geek]

If these products killed bacteria quickly enough, they would submit lab tests to the EPA to pass EPA DIS/TSS-12 though that also requires field tests in addition to lab tests. They have not done so (or at least have not done so and passed the tests). Even Nature2 went through these tests with their MPS system. Silkbalance and other products cannot make any bacterial kill claims or else they will be in violation of FIFRA rules.

Now that said, I do believe the DIS/TSS-12 lab test performance standard is way too strict requiring a 6-log reduction in bacteria in 30 seconds. Even stabilized chlorine products would not be able to meet that standard if they had even 1 ppm CYA in the water. A more realistic test would have a 2-log reduction in 1 or 2 minutes though even that is much faster than needed to prevent uncontrolled bacterial growth. The reason for the strict standards is to help prevent person-to-person transmission of disease, especially in commercial/public pools where one person can infect dozens if not hundreds of people.

[Simon Eves]

At the risk of being redundant by resurrecting this thread, I was wondering if anyone had any more recent opinions to give about SilkBalance.

We got a Limelight Flair at the end of May this year - our first tub ever - and were given a starter chemicals set of SpaGuard Advanced Shock, SilkBalance, and a Nature2 FreshWater Ag+ stick.

After four months of use maybe once or twice a week, with a weekly dose of 2tbsps of Shock and 3floz of SilkBalance, I have just done the first drain and refill, including soaking the filter overnight with SpaGuard filter cleaner, and then applied the regular doses of Shock and SilkBalance. A couple of days later, I removed and rinsed the filter one more time, after what I read earlier in this thread about SilkBalance pushing impurities out of the new water, and installed the new Nature2 stick.

Today, a couple of days later again, I tested the water with HotSprings test strips (which I had not done before, but decided to do if only for interest's sake), and the TBr and TCl were low (virtually zero) and the pH was in the high sevens (nearly eight). I have read that continuous-circulation spas with ozone, like ours, do show minimal Chlorine levels on average, as the ozone breaks it down, so perhaps that's normal, and perhaps the SilkBalance just hasn't had time to work on the pH yet (although surely fresh water isn't that high in the first place).

I guess my question is whether my dosing regime (just both together once a week, regardless of use) is enough, or if I need to be more selective with the Shock. I read that low Bromine/Chlorine can sometimes cause skin rashes, and I have certainly noticed that my skin is a little red and itchy after a long time in the tub (say an hour), although perhaps that's just because of the temperature (we usually keep it at about 101F).

Should I perhaps start using the Shock before and after use, rather than just once a week, or does it not really matter. Also, should the SilkBalance take care of the pH? I'm actually wondering if the SilkBalance I have left is still any good, as it's four months old, and I actually made the mistake of leaving the bottle out in the sun for a day while doing the cleaning, and the liquid was rather grey/purple rather than the usual white when I used it.

Like I said, sorry if any of this is redundant. I'm just a tub newbie and I don't want to end up with gangrene due to my ignorance!

[gman]

At the risk of being redundant by resurrecting this thread, I was wondering if anyone had any more recent opinions to give about SilkBalance.

We got a Limelight Flair at the end of May this year - our first tub ever - and were given a starter chemicals set of SpaGuard Advanced Shock, SilkBalance, and a Nature2 FreshWater Ag+ stick.

After four months of use maybe once or twice a week, with a weekly dose of 2tbsps of Shock and 3floz of SilkBalance, I have just done the first drain and refill, including soaking the filter overnight with SpaGuard filter cleaner, and then applied the regular doses of Shock and SilkBalance. A couple of days later, I removed and rinsed the filter one more time, after what I read earlier in this thread about SilkBalance pushing impurities out of the new water, and installed the new Nature2 stick.

Today, a couple of days later again, I tested the water with HotSprings test strips (which I had not done before, but decided to do if only for interest's sake), and the TBr and TCl were low (virtually zero) and the pH was in the high sevens (nearly eight). I have read that continuous-circulation spas with ozone, like ours, do show minimal Chlorine levels on average, as the ozone breaks it down, so perhaps that's normal, and perhaps the SilkBalance just hasn't had time to work on the pH yet (although surely fresh water isn't that high in the first place).

I guess my question is whether my dosing regime (just both together once a week, regardless of use) is enough, or if I need to be more selective with the Shock. I read that low Bromine/Chlorine can sometimes cause skin rashes, and I have certainly noticed that my skin is a little red and itchy after a long time in the tub (say an hour), although perhaps that's just because of the temperature (we usually keep it at about 101F).

Should I perhaps start using the Shock before and after use, rather than just once a week, or does it not really matter. Also, should the SilkBalance take care of the pH? I'm actually wondering if the SilkBalance I have left is still any good, as it's four months old, and I actually made the mistake of leaving the bottle out in the sun for a day while doing the cleaning, and the liquid was rather grey/purple rather than the usual white when I used it.

Like I said, sorry if any of this is redundant. I'm just a tub newbie and I don't want to end up with gangrene due to my ignorance!

Simon Eves,

I think it would be very difficult for anyone on this forum to advise you how much of anything you need to add to your tub because you do not provide sufficient water chemistry stats or use information for anyone to know what the current condition of your water is or how much your tub is used or by how many people.

The only thing I know about Silkbalance is what I've read here on this forum. If you've read this "Silkbalance" thread, you already know that Silkbalance is not an EPA approved sanitizer. You mentioned a few things that are immediate "red flags".

1. You were checking your water chemistry with test strips.

2. Your chlorine level was "virtually zero".

3. Your skin was red and itchy after a long soak.

One doesn't have to spend much time exploring, reviewing, or researching water maintenance issues on this forum to learn quickly this fundamental of water chemistry maintenance... You cannot rely solely on test strips to balance your hot tub water. Test strips results are not reliable...period. You need a good drop test kit to get accurate water test results or a dealer who provides proper water testing services. Dealer testing can be iffy, though, from what I've read on this forum.

You don't have to take my word for this. You can prove this yourself. Get yourself a good drop test kit like the K-2006 for Chlorine from Taylor Technologies. Test your water chemistry for FC (free chlorine), pH, TA (total alkalinity), CH (Calcium Hardness) and CYA (cyanuric acid) with the drop test kit and test your water with two or more test strips. Compare the results from your drop test kit with the results of your test strips. You'll probably find, as I did, that the results from the test strips will not only differ significantly from the results of your drop test kit, but the test strip results will differ significantly from other test strips from the same batch.

You don't specify how long or how many people are using the tub during the week, but you're clearly not providing sufficient sanitizer if your chlorine level is zero. You mention SpaGuard Advanced Shock. I'm not aware of a SpaGuard product called "Advanced Shock", so I assume you mean SpaGuard Enhanced Shock. I believe SpaGuard Enhanced Shock is about 50% chlorine and the remainder a blend of MPS and/or similar products. SpaGuard also has another product called Chlorine Concentrate, which is about 98% chlorine. (Don't hold my feet to the fire on these percentages...they're approximations). The point is...SpaGuard Enhanced Shock (if that is what you're using) has about half the chlorine content of SpaGuard's Chlorine Concentrate. The amount of chlorine sanitizer you're adding may not be sufficient for your use.

Some people have a reaction to MPS. Your red and itchy skin may be a reaction to the MPS in the SpaGuard Enhanced Shock, or it may be a result of bacteria in the tub from under-sanitized water.

However, before you start dumping chemicals into your hot tub, you need to determine what is your current water chemistry. Read the Hot Topics in the Hot Tub Water Chemistry subsection on this forum to get a good understanding of basic water chemistry. Compare your tub's water chemistry with the recommendations you'll find in those Hot Topics. This stuff is easy to learn. The results will be you'll have a safe and healthy tub and you'll probably save money as well.

Good luck,

gman

[Simon Eves]

I think it would be very difficult for anyone on this forum to advise you how much of anything you need to add to your tub because you do not provide sufficient water chemistry stats or use information for anyone to know what the current condition of your water is or how much your tub is used or by how many people.

Fair enough.

Like I said, I haven't even considered testing the water before today. I was just using the measures of Enhanced Shock (not Advanced Shock - sorry) and SilkBalance given on their respective packaging for a 320 gallon tub, and at the intervals (both at the same time, once a week, regardless of use) as instructed by the dealer.

Nobody else has complained of rash or itching, and that which I had myself was very mild, so I'm not too worried about that.

I was just surprised that the Chlorine level shown by the test strips was so low, and was looking for confirmation that this is in fact to be expected in a continuous-circulation tub with ozone after a couple of days, as I have been led to believe by posts earlier in this thread, because the ozone breaks down the Chlorine very quickly. As long as it's in there long enough to do enough bacteria-killing, I'm guessing that's OK.

I will do some more strip tests after I next add Shock, to get a better idea of the peak level and how it declines.

[chem geek]

2 tablespoons of Dichlor in 320 gallons would be 13 ppm Free Chlorine (FC). The combination of Dichlor and MPS in the product you are using would be somewhat lower in oxidizing power as well as sanitation -- probably equivalent to around 10 ppm FC.

Every person-hour of soaking in 320 gallons requires around 7.6 ppm FC to oxidize the bather waste. An ozonator is nice to have when one soaks every day or two since it cuts down on chlorine usage in that case, but for spas used only once or twice a week it ends up using more chlorine. Without an ozonator, one would expect a daily FC drop of around 25% per day after a fresh fill. With an ozonator, this can be easily doubled to 50% loss per day. So it isn't surprising that you measure hardly any chlorine level after a week -- a 50% drop per day starting with 10 ppm FC would end up at 0.08 ppm (just from loss from the ozonator not counting any usage from bather load) so barely measurable. You normally need to add chlorine much more frequently than that, usually every day or two though perhaps twice a week if you add enough.

An ozonator will only kill pathogens that circulate through the ozonator. It will do nothing to kill pathogens that grow on spa surfaces. That's what the chlorine is for as a bulk water disinfectant. Nevertheless, I suspect that your irritation is from the MPS and you should consider using Dichlor instead -- even better would be Dichlor initially and then switch to using bleach.