Silkbalance

[reeffreak]

Where else would you get the msds sheet if not directly from the manufacture? I asked my dealer what was in there and they said the maker of silkbalance didn't want to make public the ingredients because then other companies could copy them. All I know is that it works for me. I also noticed when shopping for hot tub or house chemicals that if something is not a "sanitizer" they usually don't have the ingredients posted on them. Like a lot of the SeaKlear products don't have the ingredients posted either.

But if you find out let us know!=)

Or they've copied other companies. SilkBalance = Mineral system + Surfactant = Nature2 + Astroglide? Guess we'll never know.

[reeffreak]

Where else would you get the msds sheet if not directly from the manufacture? I asked my dealer what was in there and they said the maker of silkbalance didn't want to make public the ingredients because then other companies could copy them. All I know is that it works for me. I also noticed when shopping for hot tub or house chemicals that if something is not a "sanitizer" they usually don't have the ingredients posted on them. Like a lot of the SeaKlear products don't have the ingredients posted either.

But if you find out let us know!=)

Or they've copied other companies. SilkBalance = Mineral system + Surfactant = Nature2 + Astroglide? Guess we'll never know.

And Seaklear has a full MSDS page. Right here.

[hottublady]

Where else would you get the msds sheet if not directly from the manufacture? I asked my dealer what was in there and they said the maker of silkbalance didn't want to make public the ingredients because then other companies could copy them. All I know is that it works for me. I also noticed when shopping for hot tub or house chemicals that if something is not a "sanitizer" they usually don't have the ingredients posted on them. Like a lot of the SeaKlear products don't have the ingredients posted either.

But if you find out let us know!=)

Or they've copied other companies. SilkBalance = Mineral system + Surfactant = Nature2 + Astroglide? Guess we'll never know.

And Seaklear has a full MSDS page. Right here.

Thank you!=) I always wondered what was in the filter cleaner and now I will know!!!

[chem geek]

Based on The Amazing Technology Behind SilkBalance™, it's likely to be surfactants that lower surface tension of the water and possibly enzymes to disrupt biofilm formation and to oxidize bather waste (or they have an oxidizer; otherwise, you'd be soaking in your own sweat and urine). There may also be metal sequestrants and/or cationic polymers (i.e. clarifiers that can also sequester some metals and slow down some bacterial growth). Stable pH and alkalinity could be from having a phosphate buffer (which would also remove calcium and prevent scaling). It can't have any registered pesticide nor substance known to be a health hazard or else they would have to supply an MSDS. As far as keeping it a trade secret, there are existing MSDS forms that indicate "proprietary ingredient" and they could do the same if they were required to have an MSDS due to toxicity. Note that an MSDS is not designed for consumers -- it is for people handling the concentrated chemical material in the workplace, including stores, etc. so that medical and fire personnel can know how to handle emergency situations.

Because they have no pesticide (sanitizer/disinfectant) registered in the product, they make no claims towards killing bacteria or inactivating viruses so would not be allowed for use (by itself) in commercial/public spas where preventing person-to-person transmission of disease was important.

[gman]

It seems that the people who are using Silkbalance and praising its effects are also using some form of sanitizer, such as chlorine. Some seem to be adding sanitizer once a week, others after each soak. Yet no one seems willing to provide water test results. Would someone who is using this product please test your water for chlorine and tell us how much chlorine, in ppm, is in your water?

If you are one of those users that shock your tub water once a week, would you please provide us with the level of sanitizer that is in your water at the beginning, middle and end of your week cycle? Please also tell us the temperature of your water, if you use and ozone system, and does your tub operate with 24 hour circulation. If you're not using chlorine to sanitize your tub, what are you using to sanitize it?

Thanks in advance for your kind help.

gman

[hottublady]

Hi Gman,

So after reading your post I tested my water this morning. I am about to drain my spa but I can tell you what it's measuring right now. Chlorine is low at a 1, Alkalinity is 80, ph is 6.8 and calcuim is 250. I have a 24hr circulation pump and use a mineral stick. I put a dose a chlorine in once a week and shock about 2-3 times a week depending on use. I called and spoke with my dealer about the low Alkalinity and ph and they said that Silkbalance works differently, and I shouldn't be testing my water.

Any imput? I'm going to drain my tub for the summer though so hopefully there is someone else on here using it by chance?

[Jake the dog man]

Seems like smoke & mirrors. I wouldn't trust any product that claims you needn't ever test. I can't figure why anyone doesn't just stick with chlorine. Once you get a system down, testing isn't needed very often at all. Seems like many around the board like to make busy work involving their tubs. Not me, I stick with chlorine which runs about 15 bucks every other month or so and test every few weeks. Drain 3 times a year.

[gman]

Hi Gman,

So after reading your post I tested my water this morning. I am about to drain my spa but I can tell you what it's measuring right now. Chlorine is low at a 1, Alkalinity is 80, ph is 6.8 and calcuim is 250. I have a 24hr circulation pump and use a mineral stick. I put a dose a chlorine in once a week and shock about 2-3 times a week depending on use. I called and spoke with my dealer about the low Alkalinity and ph and they said that Silkbalance works differently, and I shouldn't be testing my water.

Any imput? I'm going to drain my tub for the summer though so hopefully there is someone else on here using it by chance?

Hottublady,

Thanks for providing us with some numbers. The reason I was interested in test numbers is I was interested in the chlorine demand for anyone using Silk Balance. Your numbers provide a starting point, but to be truly helpful to determine the sanitary effectiveness of Silk Balance, more testing and test condition information is needed. Unfortunately, since you are draining your tub for the summer, you will not be able to provide the necessary data. I was hoping someone who is already a user could provide some chlorine usage insight by testing regularly for a while.

But here's my thoughts.

It has already been pointed out that Silk Balance should be used in conjunction with some kind of sanitizer (chlorine "shock"). The question is...how much sanitizer is necessary to maintain safe water when using Silk Balance? What is the chlorine demand when Silk Balance is used in conjunction with an ozone system and 24 hour circulation (which seems to be the recommended set up for Silk Balance use)?

Silk Water Solutions (USA), Inc., the manufacturers of Silk Balance are not revealing what Silk Balance contains. They simply state that Silk Balance uses BioFilm Dispersion Technology to "leave your skin silky & soft", "provide crystal clear water", "provide a refreshing scent", "provide continuous pure water quality", and "prevent dangerous bacteria build up". Water that is crystal clear, feels silky and smells good certainly reinforce the appearance that the water is healthy and safe, but one can certainly have a hot tub full of bacteria even though the water is crystal clear, feels silky and smells good. Of the stated features/benefits of Silk Balance, only "prevent dangerous bacteria buildup" remotely addresses the health and safety issues that should concern any hot tub user. Providing "continuous pure water quality" is a bit misleading since they don't define what "pure water" is nor do they explain how they attain "pure water quality". Nitro's dichlor/bleach method provides continuous pure water quality. With regards to "prevent dangerous bacteria buildup"...keep in mind that preventing bacteria buildup is not the same as preventing bacteria (a significant distinction).

Biofilms are essentially colonies of bacteria. Although much more complex than I am suggesting here, it is my understanding that BioFilm Dispersion Technology focuses on methods, technologies, agents or compounds that cause bacteria colonies to disperse, leaving individual bacteria more susceptible to disinfectants. But you still need disinfectants and/or sanitizers e.g., chlorine, to neutralize the bacteria.

It may be that chlorine demand is very low when Silk Balance is used in a hot tub with an ozone system and 24 hour circulation. When you tested your water you found your chlorine was 1 (I am assuming you mean you had 1ppm of Free Chlorine). So obviously, your tub still had some sanitizer in it since your last use of the tub. However, since you haven't been testing your water regularly, you don't know what was your level of chlorine in the tub before or immediately after you shocked your water the last time and you don't say how much you've been using your tub since shocking. Therefore, there's no way to determine your chlorine demand with Silk Balance. Unfortunately, no one using Silk Balance seems to be testing their water regularly to be able to come to any reasonable conclusions about its effectiveness in maintaining healthy water.

Silk Balance's protocol is certainly easy and requires very little time. But it is expensive and its effectiveness for maintaining healthy water has not been sufficiently established for me yet. It would be wonderful if we could maintain healthy hot tub water with little time and effort (and ideally with little expense). Perhaps someone using Silk Balance will actually keep track of its sanitizing abilities which could be verified with test numbers.

Thanks again for your numbers. Have a good summer.

gman

[citysoaker]

Perhaps someone using Silk Balance will actually keep track of its sanitizing abilities which could be verified with test numbers.

gman

Hi Gman,

I am always looking to minimize chemical use while safely maintaining my Tsunami Spa (~350 gallons). I dislike the odor associated with chlorine or bromide sanitizers, so I've been successfully using the Leisure Time Free system (biguanide), in combination with an ozonator, for two years. The level of sanitation appears to be adequate (we cultured it once when the water looked a little gross 2 days after a small party- probable diagnosis: lotion/ skin oil overload). I am not completely satisfied as it has been a little tricky and time-consuming to keep the tub balanced, and while there is no chemical smell at all, it does leave my skin feeling dry. Therefore, I read with interest all of the glowing testimonials about Silkbalance. However, as a doctoral student in the medical field with a background in biochemistry and critical care nursing, I share your concerns about the lack of data concerning the neutralization of potentially harmful bacteria.

Do you know of anyone with experience in using Silkbalance in conjunction with the Free sanitizer or other biguanide sanitizers? I would be willing to use Silkbalance and test regularly (we would have to establish a protocol) beginning with my next water change (late August). Are there any retailers (or Silkbalance reps) out there that would be willing to provide the product at wholesale (or, better yet, free) in exchange for some reliable data? I am willing to commit to using the product as long as I am obtaining encouraging results.

Alternately:

I read a blog in which Caleb Husong, Sales Associate in the Seattle Olympic Hot Tub Company (http://www.hottubbliss.com/thinking-of-buying-a-hot-tub-online-beware-those-deals-are-too-good-to-be-true/)is quoted as saying, "Salt sanitizing systems are the new standard for automated, easy water care that’s environmentally safe. Natural products like SilkBalance should be available for whatever you purchase. Avoid hot tubs that use bromine, chlorine and biguanide for sanitizing the water not only because they irritate the skin and eyes, but also for the hassle you’ll go through to keep the water clean and in balance."

I've followed the discussions regarding Silkbalance, and there appears to be a consensus that it requires a sanitizer to provide adequate sanitation. Anyone with feedback regarding salt sanitizing systems?

Thanks for your time,

ME

Portland, OR

[waterbear]

Anyone with feedback regarding salt sanitizing systems?

Thanks for your time,

ME

Portland, OR

Salt sanitizing systems (AKA salt water chlorine or bromine generators) are either chlorine or bromine. The difference is what salts are added. If you only add sodium pr potassium chloride then the system generates chlorine sanitizer. If you add sodium bromide to the mix the system generates bromine sanitizer. Both work by generating the sanitizer by electrolysis of the salt solution in the tub. Salt water generators have been used in swimming pools since ther 60s and are not new.

[gman]

... ....I called and spoke with my dealer about the low Alkalinity and ph and they said that Silkbalance works differently, and I shouldn't be testing my water.

I have been away from this thread for a while, not responding in part because I was hoping someone using Silkbalance would step up to the plate, test their water and post their protocol and test results for others to evaluate. Other than Hottublady, who tested her water and was reprimanded by her dealer for doing so, no one has stepped up to the plate.

I (and others) have expressed concerns about Silkbalance's ability to maintain hot tub water that is safe and healthy. Many people using Silkbalance have praised Silkbalance for how it makes their hot tub water feel and look. But, apparently, no one actually using Silkbalance wants to provide: 1) a water balancing protocol AND 2) water chemistry testing data that objectively supports their protocol for neutralizing bacteria. Perhaps "ignorance is bliss" is the marketing strategy for Silkbalance.

Anyone using Silkbalance willing to volunteer to provide test results? Some dealers have said they are using it in their display models. Would any of those dealers be willing to daily test their display tubs using Silkbalance for a few weeks and post their protocol and test results for the benefit of potential Silkbalance users? Or are the dealers worried that the test results may not support the claims made by the company? I'm sure I'm not the only person interested in this product.

Thanks in advance to anyone willing to volunteer for this endeavor.

gman

[rusty_spa]

Here's what I can tell you about silk balance after almost two years with the product. It is NOT a stand alone sanitizer or any kind of sanitizer for that matter. It is only meant to eliminate the need to test and adjust ph, alk and maintain calcium hardness and does so with buffering agents. It does, however, help prevent the build up of biofilm due to surfactants which reduce surface tension and silver/ ? (can't remember the other half of the name-same as Nature 2) which is a natural antibacterial agent. When used in a Hot Springs spa or any other kind of spa with a 24 hour circ pump and a continuous flow of ozone into the spa water you'll only need to add MPS (shock) before or after each use to help oxidize out bather wastes and Chlorine once a week for an average use residential spa. The beauty about this set up is the chlorine "burns off" in about 24 hours leaving you with a zero residual Chlorine(I can hear the gasps) which means a CHLORINE FREE spa 6 out of 7 days. The ozonator supplied with Hot Spring spas is a corona discharge chamber type which produces a higher level of ozone saturation which, when combined with a Nature 2 stick, becomes the main sanitizer in the spa. The only problem with this is the ozone will only sanitize what it comes in contact with which is generally the main body of water as it is recirculated through the spa. This is why you need at least the weekly dose of chlorine to sanitize the jet lines and the shell of the spa. This ozone based system works with or without silkbalance. The difference without silk is you'll need to test and adjust the ph balance, alk and calcium hardness. Hottublady is correct in that after first filling or refilling the spa and adding silkbalance you will need to clean the filters in the first few days as it will push minerals and other impurities out of the spa water. It does cost a little more than some of the traditional watercare products and isn't for everyone (not all customers on well water can use the product due to high minerals and calcium). The main benefits to the product are no hardness in the spa water and no testing/adjusting. It can be used in a spa without ozone or a lower output ozonator as well, however, you would need to maintain a Chlorine residual just as you would otherwise. The only time I've found my customers have had a problem with this system is when they don't run chlorine through all of the jet lines at least once a week. If that water is not circulated out of those lines and sanitized it will start to develop biofilm. Customers who tend to run all of their jets more often can get away with slightly less chlorine, however, as a matter of caution I always recommend the weekly dose. I'm sure I just poked the hornets nest, but I can tell you that with 27,000 plus customers over half of which use at least the ozone based system (including myself) it works when administered properly just like most any other method of spa maintenance. It seems to me that some of the posts were missing the point of silk BALANCE. I figure the name speaks for itself, but some still seem to think is is a sanitizer and it's not. If your dealer is telling you that you can use it with out any other sanitizer then I would seek another dealer. --I almost forgot the best part--Silkbalance leaves your skin soft and smooth and won't dry you out which is a problem for most frequent spa users. A lot of our customers that have made the switch to silk balance have mentioned how much better their skin feels. You can read the testimonials for yourself.

[waterbear]

It does, however, help prevent the build up of biofilm due to surfactants which reduce surface tension and silver/ ? (can't remember the other half of the name-same as Nature 2) which is a natural antibacterial agent.

Nature 2 uses silver nitrate. So based on what you said it is a "standard" silver system for spas. There is an EPA approved silver based sanitizer for spas by N. Jonas called Silspa (they used to also make a silver based sanitizer for pools called Sildate but to the best of my knowledge they no longer offer this product). This is not based on silver nitrate but, rather, on colloidal silver oxide, however it does tend to cause staining. IMHO, the kill times for silver are too slow and the drawbacks with staining and toxicity are too high to warrant the use of silver as a sanitizer.

[rusty_spa]

Perhaps someone using Silk Balance will actually keep track of its sanitizing abilities which could be verified with test numbers.

gman

Hi Gman,

I am always looking to minimize chemical use while safely maintaining my Tsunami Spa (~350 gallons). I dislike the odor associated with chlorine or bromide sanitizers, so I've been successfully using the Leisure Time Free system (biguanide), in combination with an ozonator, for two years. The level of sanitation appears to be adequate (we cultured it once when the water looked a little gross 2 days after a small party- probable diagnosis: lotion/ skin oil overload). I am not completely satisfied as it has been a little tricky and time-consuming to keep the tub balanced, and while there is no chemical smell at all, it does leave my skin feeling dry. Therefore, I read with interest all of the glowing testimonials about Silkbalance. However, as a doctoral student in the medical field with a background in biochemistry and critical care nursing, I share your concerns about the lack of data concerning the neutralization of potentially harmful bacteria.

Do you know of anyone with experience in using Silkbalance in conjunction with the Free sanitizer or other biguanide sanitizers? I would be willing to use Silkbalance and test regularly (we would have to establish a protocol) beginning with my next water change (late August). Are there any retailers (or Silkbalance reps) out there that would be willing to provide the product at wholesale (or, better yet, free) in exchange for some reliable data? I am willing to commit to using the product as long as I am obtaining encouraging results.

Alternately:

I read a blog in which Caleb Husong, Sales Associate in the Seattle Olympic Hot Tub Company (http://www.hottubbliss.com/thinking-of-buying-a-hot-tub-online-beware-those-deals-are-too-good-to-be-true/)is quoted as saying, "Salt sanitizing systems are the new standard for automated, easy water care thats environmentally safe. Natural products like SilkBalance should be available for whatever you purchase. Avoid hot tubs that use bromine, chlorine and biguanide for sanitizing the water not only because they irritate the skin and eyes, but also for the hassle youll go through to keep the water clean and in balance."

I've followed the discussions regarding Silkbalance, and there appears to be a consensus that it requires a sanitizer to provide adequate sanitation. Anyone with feedback regarding salt sanitizing systems?

Thanks for your time,

ME

Portland, OR

I apologize if I'm not folling proper protocol in replying, but I am new to this forum. What Caleb was refering to on the salt subject is new technology available with Hot Spring Spas that allows a level of salt at 1000ppm vs 5000ppm for most other systems. The diamond electrode in the system produces Active Oxygen and shock along with chlorine and other oxidizers to sanitize the spa. Once the water balance is established at start up you will only test the water once a month. The system will tell you when the salt level is low and offers a boost feature which will produce slightly more sanitizers when there is a higher bather load then normal. This system also eliminates calcium from the equation and leaves the water feeling much softer. In contrast to the ozone based system this maintains a residual level of chlorine in the spa on a constant basis. The lower salt level results in less chance for corrosion of metal components even without zinc in the spa compared to other systems.

[rusty_spa]

It does, however, help prevent the build up of biofilm due to surfactants which reduce surface tension and silver/ ? (can't remember the other half of the name-same as Nature 2) which is a natural antibacterial agent.

Nature 2 uses silver nitrate. So based on what you said it is a "standard" silver system for spas. There is an EPA approved silver based sanitizer for spas by N. Jonas called Silspa (they used to also make a silver based sanitizer for pools called Sildate but to the best of my knowledge they no longer offer this product). This is not based on silver nitrate but, rather, on colloidal silver oxide, however it does tend to cause staining. IMHO, the kill times for silver are too slow and the drawbacks with staining and toxicity are too high to warrant the use of silver as a sanitizer.

Again, silk balance and the nature 2 are not stand alone sanitizers although there are some out there who are trying to push it that way. There were some staining issues with the original Silkbalance formula, but they have reformulated the product and the staining has gone away. With out ozone as a part of the equation you would need to maintain a residual level of chlorine to keep the water sanitized.

[waterbear]

What Caleb was refering to on the salt subject is new technology available with Hot Spring Spas that allows a level of salt at 1000ppm vs 5000ppm for most other systems. The diamond electrode in the system produces Active Oxygen and shock along with chlorine and other oxidizers to sanitize the spa. Once the water balance is established at start up you will only test the water once a month. The system will tell you when the salt level is low and offers a boost feature which will produce slightly more sanitizers when there is a higher bather load then normal. This system also eliminates calcium from the equation and leaves the water feeling much softer. In contrast to the ozone based system this maintains a residual level of chlorine in the spa on a constant basis. The lower salt level results in less chance for corrosion of metal components even without zinc in the spa compared to other systems.

Yes and this is much of the same pseudoscience of 'active oxygen' and 'oxidation' promoted by such ionizer systems as ecosmarte and CLfree. Even with a salt level as low as 1000 ppm there will be production of chlorine so you will have a chlorine spa. If there is also bromide salts present in the water it becomes a bromine spa. "Active" oxygen is atomic oxygen and the only way to get that in a spa is by ozone or other oxygen donor (oxidizing chemical). Oxygen generated by electrolysis is going to be molecular O2, which has little activity compared to other oxidizers. As far producing "Active Oxygen and shock along with chlorine and other oxidizers to sanitize the spa" what exactly is 'shock'? Shock is something you do, not a chemical you add. It is the process of adding enough excess oxidizer to burn off organics and, in halogen based systems, destroy combined halogens (chloramines and bromamines). With 1000 ppm salt chlorine will most certainly be produced by electrolysis but what "other oxidizers" are being produced? If there is bromide in the water then certainly bromine sanitizer is being produced but the statement you made is rather vague.

Just about all salt systems tell you when the salt level is low since there can be cell damage when the salt is low. How is this "new". As far as testing the water once a month, in a well balanced salt system this is certainly possible, I will grant that, BUT (and it is a big BUT) how do you know when you need to use the boost feature (also found in just about all salt systems) if you are not testing sanitizer levels on a regular basis. Rising pH in spas is a problem because of outgassing of CO2 and salt systems add to the outgassing so keeping tabs on pH is even more important with a salt system (as it is with ozone). Also, please explain how it 'eliminates calcium from the equation'? I can see that the higher pH that will occur by only testing the water monthly that will cause the calcium to deposit as scale and this WILL lower the CH of the water (soften it) but we all know this is not a desirable way to soften the water. OR are you referring to the pseudoscience that both ecosmarte and CLfree use about 'converting calcium to the bicarbonate form'? Calcium bicarbonate does not exist except in a solution that contains both calcium ions and bicarbonate ions, i.e. EVERY pool and hot tub that has a total alkalinity higher than 0! If the saturation index rises too high then scaling conditions exist and the calcium comes out of the water as calcium carbonate! Period!

I do agree that a salt system will maintain a residual level of chlorine in the spa better than an ozone system. Ozone destroys chlorine and vice versa and a system that is automatically dosed with chlorine, like a salt water chlorine generator or even a peristaltic dosing pump, is going to maintain a more constant chlorine level than one that is manually dosed. As far as lower salt level causing less chance of corrosion there is some truth to this BUT much also has to do with other factors of water balance and the materials used in spa construction. Realize that salt systems are not new, they have been used on swimming pools since the 60s. They work and they work well. They do not need pseudoscience to sell them.

[waterbear]

After going to their website, I realize they've kind of morphed their target market. They used to say they were the only thing you had to put in the water including any kind of sanitizer. When I asked them what the EPA thought of that, they only said their AquaGard product has been used in Europe for years. We passed.

It looks like they're are now fashioning themselves as an "everything besides the santizer" solution. Based on what I read, I'm sure it works as intended. Reminds me a lot of ecoONE. But you still need to use sanitizer and unless Silk Balance got a lot cheaper in the two years since we spoke (it used to retail for $120ish for 3 month program), IMHO it's overpriced for what it does.

Here is a thread about Aquaguard from 2007.

Seems like not much has changed.

[rusty_spa]

What Caleb was refering to on the salt subject is new technology available with Hot Spring Spas that allows a level of salt at 1000ppm vs 5000ppm for most other systems. The diamond electrode in the system produces Active Oxygen and shock along with chlorine and other oxidizers to sanitize the spa. Once the water balance is established at start up you will only test the water once a month. The system will tell you when the salt level is low and offers a boost feature which will produce slightly more sanitizers when there is a higher bather load then normal. This system also eliminates calcium from the equation and leaves the water feeling much softer. In contrast to the ozone based system this maintains a residual level of chlorine in the spa on a constant basis. The lower salt level results in less chance for corrosion of metal components even without zinc in the spa compared to other systems.

Yes and this is much of the same pseudoscience of 'active oxygen' and 'oxidation' promoted by such ionizer systems as ecosmarte and CLfree. Even with a salt level as low as 1000 ppm there will be production of chlorine so you will have a chlorine spa. If there is also bromide salts present in the water it becomes a bromine spa. "Active" oxygen is atomic oxygen and the only way to get that in a spa is by ozone or other oxygen donor (oxidizing chemical). Oxygen generated by electrolysis is going to be molecular O2, which has little activity compared to other oxidizers. As far producing "Active Oxygen and shock along with chlorine and other oxidizers to sanitize the spa" what exactly is 'shock'? Shock is something you do, not a chemical you add. It is the process of adding enough excess oxidizer to burn off organics and, in halogen based systems, destroy combined halogens (chloramines and bromamines). With 1000 ppm salt chlorine will most certainly be produced by electrolysis but what "other oxidizers" are being produced? If there is bromide in the water then certainly bromine sanitizer is being produced but the statement you made is rather vague.

Just about all salt systems tell you when the salt level is low since there can be cell damage when the salt is low. How is this "new". As far as testing the water once a month, in a well balanced salt system this is certainly possible, I will grant that, BUT (and it is a big BUT) how do you know when you need to use the boost feature (also found in just about all salt systems) if you are not testing sanitizer levels on a regular basis. Rising pH in spas is a problem because of outgassing of CO2 and salt systems add to the outgassing so keeping tabs on pH is even more important with a salt system (as it is with ozone). Also, please explain how it 'eliminates calcium from the equation'? I can see that the higher pH that will occur by only testing the water monthly that will cause the calcium to deposit as scale and this WILL lower the CH of the water (soften it) but we all know this is not a desirable way to soften the water. OR are you referring to the pseudoscience that both ecosmarte and CLfree use about 'converting calcium to the bicarbonate form'? Calcium bicarbonate does not exist except in a solution that contains both calcium ions and bicarbonate ions, i.e. EVERY pool and hot tub that has a total alkalinity higher than 0! If the saturation index rises too high then scaling conditions exist and the calcium comes out of the water as calcium carbonate! Period!

I do agree that a salt system will maintain a residual level of chlorine in the spa better than an ozone system. Ozone destroys chlorine and vice versa and a system that is automatically dosed with chlorine, like a salt water chlorine generator or even a peristaltic dosing pump, is going to maintain a more constant chlorine level than one that is manually dosed. As far as lower salt level causing less chance of corrosion there is some truth to this BUT much also has to do with other factors of water balance and the materials used in spa construction. Realize that salt systems are not new, they have been used on swimming pools since the 60s. They work and they work well. They do not need pseudoscience to sell them.

When I refered to "shock" I was refering to the common retail name for Potassium Peroxymonosulfate (MPS). SO shock can be something you ADD to the spa as well as something you do to a spa. Second, the new salt system for hot spring spas requires that you have an low calcium level to start and comes with a pouch that you put in the spa physically removes the calcium from the water to acheive the desired level if your fill water has high calcium ppm. The starting alkalinity is also lower than you would normally start with. And lastly why do all you so called experts always automatically denounce every product without doing your own independent research? You all sound like a bunch of snooty bookworm know-it-alls that have to prove you have a bigger brain than everyone else. If the manufacturer started spouting off the reasons why this works and that works and the chemical compounds of this and that most peoples eyes would glaze over and you lose them. Your "pseudoscience" is just puting things in terms most people understand. What I can tell you from experience is that both silk balance and the NEW salt system from Hot Spring spas WORK. What I also know is that not every watercare program works for every customer. Some people want to enjoy the benefits of a spa, but don't want to test, measure and/ or dose their spa every day or week. Without these alternatives these people would not purchase a spa due to the perceived difficulty (real or not) of spa maintenance. If you want to know more about the new salt system go to the hot springs web site and read the info on the Ace system for yourself.

[waterbear]

What Caleb was refering to on the salt subject is new technology available with Hot Spring Spas that allows a level of salt at 1000ppm vs 5000ppm for most other systems. The diamond electrode in the system produces Active Oxygen and shock along with chlorine and other oxidizers to sanitize the spa. Once the water balance is established at start up you will only test the water once a month. The system will tell you when the salt level is low and offers a boost feature which will produce slightly more sanitizers when there is a higher bather load then normal. This system also eliminates calcium from the equation and leaves the water feeling much softer. In contrast to the ozone based system this maintains a residual level of chlorine in the spa on a constant basis. The lower salt level results in less chance for corrosion of metal components even without zinc in the spa compared to other systems.

Yes and this is much of the same pseudoscience of 'active oxygen' and 'oxidation' promoted by such ionizer systems as ecosmarte and CLfree. Even with a salt level as low as 1000 ppm there will be production of chlorine so you will have a chlorine spa. If there is also bromide salts present in the water it becomes a bromine spa. "Active" oxygen is atomic oxygen and the only way to get that in a spa is by ozone or other oxygen donor (oxidizing chemical). Oxygen generated by electrolysis is going to be molecular O2, which has little activity compared to other oxidizers. As far producing "Active Oxygen and shock along with chlorine and other oxidizers to sanitize the spa" what exactly is 'shock'? Shock is something you do, not a chemical you add. It is the process of adding enough excess oxidizer to burn off organics and, in halogen based systems, destroy combined halogens (chloramines and bromamines). With 1000 ppm salt chlorine will most certainly be produced by electrolysis but what "other oxidizers" are being produced? If there is bromide in the water then certainly bromine sanitizer is being produced but the statement you made is rather vague.

Just about all salt systems tell you when the salt level is low since there can be cell damage when the salt is low. How is this "new". As far as testing the water once a month, in a well balanced salt system this is certainly possible, I will grant that, BUT (and it is a big BUT) how do you know when you need to use the boost feature (also found in just about all salt systems) if you are not testing sanitizer levels on a regular basis. Rising pH in spas is a problem because of outgassing of CO2 and salt systems add to the outgassing so keeping tabs on pH is even more important with a salt system (as it is with ozone). Also, please explain how it 'eliminates calcium from the equation'? I can see that the higher pH that will occur by only testing the water monthly that will cause the calcium to deposit as scale and this WILL lower the CH of the water (soften it) but we all know this is not a desirable way to soften the water. OR are you referring to the pseudoscience that both ecosmarte and CLfree use about 'converting calcium to the bicarbonate form'? Calcium bicarbonate does not exist except in a solution that contains both calcium ions and bicarbonate ions, i.e. EVERY pool and hot tub that has a total alkalinity higher than 0! If the saturation index rises too high then scaling conditions exist and the calcium comes out of the water as calcium carbonate! Period!

I do agree that a salt system will maintain a residual level of chlorine in the spa better than an ozone system. Ozone destroys chlorine and vice versa and a system that is automatically dosed with chlorine, like a salt water chlorine generator or even a peristaltic dosing pump, is going to maintain a more constant chlorine level than one that is manually dosed. As far as lower salt level causing less chance of corrosion there is some truth to this BUT much also has to do with other factors of water balance and the materials used in spa construction. Realize that salt systems are not new, they have been used on swimming pools since the 60s. They work and they work well. They do not need pseudoscience to sell them.

When I refered to "shock" I was refering to the common retail name for Potassium Peroxymonosulfate (MPS).

Then according to what you wrote above the salt system generates MPS in the spa. I think not. I know the Hotsprings website says it does if pH down is present but that is chemcally impossible. For one thing MPS is POTASSIUM monopersulfate and pH down is SODIUM bisulfate. As far as ozone being produced, it is not produced by electrolysis, it's produced by either UV or corona discharge. This is pure pseudoscience at it's best! IT sounds good and it sounds plausible but it is not.

SO shock can be something you ADD to the spa as well as something you do to a spa.

Shock is what you do when you add an excess of oxidizer to a spa, be it chlorine, MPS, ozone or peroxide since all of these can be used to shock but they are all very different things. Repeat after me "shock is a verb, not a noun."

Second, the new salt system for hot spring spas requires that you have an low calcium level to start and comes with a pouch that you put in the spa physically removes the calcium from the water to acheive the desired level if your fill water has high calcium ppm.

Low calcium hardness will help prevent scaling and keep the cell from fouling, nothing unusual here.

So tell me, does this cause the calcium to actually precipitate out of the water or does it just sequester the calcium? Both approaches are viable (and the second is much easier to achieve. There are too many factors to successfully get calcium to precipitate out but it does not take anything exotic. A bit of soda ash will do it nicely.

The starting alkalinity is also lower than you would normally start with.

With a salt generator I would recommend a TA of 70 ppm or lower to minimize outgassing of carbon dioxide, which in turn, would keep the pH more stable since the main cause of pH rise in a spa is from outgassing of CO2 and SWGs increase outgassing. Since the generator is creating sodium hypocholite the TA is supposed to be lower anyway than if an acidic santiizer is used like dichlor or a three step bromine system. Nothing unsual here either. Just sound water balance chemistry. Anyone who really understands what TA IS would know this.

And lastly why do all you so called experts always automatically denounce every product without doing your own independent research? You all sound like a bunch of snooty bookworm know-it-alls that have to prove you have a bigger brain than everyone else.

No, just a sound understanding of water chemistry and the experience to know what works and what doesn't and WHY (which is the most important part, IMHO).

If the manufacturer started spouting off the reasons why this works and that works and the chemical compounds of this and that most peoples eyes would glaze over and you lose them. Your "pseudoscience" is just puting things in terms most people understand.

NO, pseudoscience is based on the fact that the prospective buyer does not have a science background. the claims of active oxygen sound good but they do not stand up under scrutiny, much like the 'diamond' electrodes which are normally referred to as a carbon electrode which does not sound as 'special'. Diamonds are nothing but carbon in case you didn't know.

What I can tell you from experience is that both silk balance and the NEW salt system from Hot Spring spas WORK.

re: silkbalance , have you done bacterial tests to see how well it keeps the water sanitized? If it is a silver system it is nothing new at all and silver and MPS do work in the hotter waters of a spa. Collodial silver also works in swimming pools and even has EPA approval as a pool and spa disinfectant (but not as a sanitizer) but there were too many staining problems. Once again, no surprises BUT any company that does not want to let you know what you are putting into your water is probably selling snake oil. History has shown this time and again.

Re:salt water chlorine generators...no argument from me that they work, you are preaching to the choir but they are NOT new. They have been used in pools since the 60's and have been in spas for a few years now. Even Autopilot systems, maker of the PoolPilot came out with a spa unit but they no longer offer it and the Genesis bromine generator (which also has carbon electrodes) has been around for a while.)

FWIW, my own pool and spa are sanitized by a salt water chlorine generator and have been for several years now. (You might want to Google electrolysis of water and electrolysis of salt water to learn what is actually happening).

What I also know is that not every watercare program works for every customer. Some people want to enjoy the benefits of a spa, but don't want to test, measure and/ or dose their spa every day or week. Without these alternatives these people would not purchase a spa due to the perceived difficulty (real or not) of spa maintenance.

AND many dealers and also pool builders underemphasize what is needed for proper maintenance to keep the water sanitized to close the sale. It happens more than it should and I know this because, besides working in commercial maintenance I also worked in the aftermarket sector of the industry and had too many customers that came in with major water problems and a lot of bad advice from the dealers that they stopped going to because of the never ending water problems. The number of dealers who don't know the proper way to do a bromine system never ceases to amaze me! If you don't start with a bromide bank in the water on filling you either have NO sanitizer or a chlorine spa! Pool builders for the most part are no better.

Then again their business model is based on number of units sold or built so if telling the truth to prospective customers could hurt sales that is something they really do not want to do, is it?

Bottom line, over the years there have been a LOT of things that were supposed to 'simplify' spa or pool maintenance. Some, such as SWGs do but at an added expense (worth it to me, btw). Others are pure bunk (anyone remember the magnets that were supposed to condition the water? I think they can still be purchased!)

If you want to know more about the new salt system go to the hot springs web site and read the info on the Ace system for yourself.

I have, it's a standard salt generator with carbon electrodes, nothing unusual here.

For a spa salesman (I'm guessing here and also guessing that you have not been in the industry that long) that joined this forum today you are very opinionated but don't seem to have a lot of knowledge under your belt except for what you have learned in a manufacturer's training or literature and no real understanding of water chemistry. I could be wrong about this but based on what you have posted I don't think so.

[citysoaker]

rusty_spa, on 05 August 2010 - 12:21 AM, said:

And lastly why do all you so called experts always automatically denounce every product without doing your own independent research? You all sound like a bunch of snooty bookworm know-it-alls that have to prove you have a bigger brain than everyone else. If the manufacturer started spouting off the reasons why this works and that works and the chemical compounds of this and that most peoples eyes would glaze over and you lose them. Your "pseudoscience" is just putting things in terms most people understand. What I can tell you from experience is that both silk balance and the NEW salt system from Hot Spring spas WORK. What I also know is that not every water care program works for every customer. Some people want to enjoy the benefits of a spa, but don't want to test, measure and/ or dose their spa every day or week. Without these alternatives these people would not purchase a spa due to the perceived difficulty (real or not) of spa maintenance. If you want to know more about the new salt system go to the hot springs web site and read the info on the Ace system for yourself.

Thanks, Rusty. Sorry to sound snooty. Not my intention. I DO want to know that the products I use in my spa have a reasonable expectation of effectiveness. For me, being sure the bacterial level in my hot tub is not going to harm my family and friends is important. Perhaps because of my experience in health care, I am a little bit paranoid about this. I certainly appreciate the pioneers who are willing to try new things on faith, and I also appreciate the value of anecdotal evidence. I can read about something all day, and be satisfied that it meets certain scientific standards, but at the end of the day I want to hear from someone who has actual experience with the product. That's one of the reasons I value forums like this one. I've been to the websites. I come here to read about real experiences from real people and to try to find information I am unable to locate on the web.

Thanks, again, for pulling me back down to Earth.

Cheers,

Citysoaker

[rusty_spa]

What Caleb was refering to on the salt subject is new technology available with Hot Spring Spas that allows a level of salt at 1000ppm vs 5000ppm for most other systems. The diamond electrode in the system produces Active Oxygen and shock along with chlorine and other oxidizers to sanitize the spa. Once the water balance is established at start up you will only test the water once a month. The system will tell you when the salt level is low and offers a boost feature which will produce slightly more sanitizers when there is a higher bather load then normal. This system also eliminates calcium from the equation and leaves the water feeling much softer. In contrast to the ozone based system this maintains a residual level of chlorine in the spa on a constant basis. The lower salt level results in less chance for corrosion of metal components even without zinc in the spa compared to other systems.

Yes and this is much of the same pseudoscience of 'active oxygen' and 'oxidation' promoted by such ionizer systems as ecosmarte and CLfree. Even with a salt level as low as 1000 ppm there will be production of chlorine so you will have a chlorine spa. If there is also bromide salts present in the water it becomes a bromine spa. "Active" oxygen is atomic oxygen and the only way to get that in a spa is by ozone or other oxygen donor (oxidizing chemical). Oxygen generated by electrolysis is going to be molecular O2, which has little activity compared to other oxidizers. As far producing "Active Oxygen and shock along with chlorine and other oxidizers to sanitize the spa" what exactly is 'shock'? Shock is something you do, not a chemical you add. It is the process of adding enough excess oxidizer to burn off organics and, in halogen based systems, destroy combined halogens (chloramines and bromamines). With 1000 ppm salt chlorine will most certainly be produced by electrolysis but what "other oxidizers" are being produced? If there is bromide in the water then certainly bromine sanitizer is being produced but the statement you made is rather vague.

Just about all salt systems tell you when the salt level is low since there can be cell damage when the salt is low. How is this "new". As far as testing the water once a month, in a well balanced salt system this is certainly possible, I will grant that, BUT (and it is a big BUT) how do you know when you need to use the boost feature (also found in just about all salt systems) if you are not testing sanitizer levels on a regular basis. Rising pH in spas is a problem because of outgassing of CO2 and salt systems add to the outgassing so keeping tabs on pH is even more important with a salt system (as it is with ozone). Also, please explain how it 'eliminates calcium from the equation'? I can see that the higher pH that will occur by only testing the water monthly that will cause the calcium to deposit as scale and this WILL lower the CH of the water (soften it) but we all know this is not a desirable way to soften the water. OR are you referring to the pseudoscience that both ecosmarte and CLfree use about 'converting calcium to the bicarbonate form'? Calcium bicarbonate does not exist except in a solution that contains both calcium ions and bicarbonate ions, i.e. EVERY pool and hot tub that has a total alkalinity higher than 0! If the saturation index rises too high then scaling conditions exist and the calcium comes out of the water as calcium carbonate! Period!

I do agree that a salt system will maintain a residual level of chlorine in the spa better than an ozone system. Ozone destroys chlorine and vice versa and a system that is automatically dosed with chlorine, like a salt water chlorine generator or even a peristaltic dosing pump, is going to maintain a more constant chlorine level than one that is manually dosed. As far as lower salt level causing less chance of corrosion there is some truth to this BUT much also has to do with other factors of water balance and the materials used in spa construction. Realize that salt systems are not new, they have been used on swimming pools since the 60s. They work and they work well. They do not need pseudoscience to sell them.

When I refered to "shock" I was refering to the common retail name for Potassium Peroxymonosulfate (MPS).

Then according to what you wrote above the salt system generates MPS in the spa. I think not. I know the Hotsprings website says it does if pH down is present but that is chemcally impossible. For one thing MPS is POTASSIUM monopersulfate and pH down is SODIUM bisulfate. As far as ozone being produced, it is not produced by electrolysis, it's produced by either UV or corona discharge. This is pure pseudoscience at it's best! IT sounds good and it sounds plausible but it is not.

SO shock can be something you ADD to the spa as well as something you do to a spa.

Shock is what you do when you add an excess of oxidizer to a spa, be it chlorine, MPS, ozone or peroxide since all of these can be used to shock but they are all very different things. Repeat after me "shock is a verb, not a noun."

Second, the new salt system for hot spring spas requires that you have an low calcium level to start and comes with a pouch that you put in the spa physically removes the calcium from the water to acheive the desired level if your fill water has high calcium ppm.

Low calcium hardness will help prevent scaling and keep the cell from fouling, nothing unusual here.

So tell me, does this cause the calcium to actually precipitate out of the water or does it just sequester the calcium? Both approaches are viable (and the second is much easier to achieve. There are too many factors to successfully get calcium to precipitate out but it does not take anything exotic. A bit of soda ash will do it nicely.

The starting alkalinity is also lower than you would normally start with.

With a salt generator I would recommend a TA of 70 ppm or lower to minimize outgassing of carbon dioxide, which in turn, would keep the pH more stable since the main cause of pH rise in a spa is from outgassing of CO2 and SWGs increase outgassing. Since the generator is creating sodium hypocholite the TA is supposed to be lower anyway than if an acidic santiizer is used like dichlor or a three step bromine system. Nothing unsual here either. Just sound water balance chemistry. Anyone who really understands what TA IS would know this.

And lastly why do all you so called experts always automatically denounce every product without doing your own independent research? You all sound like a bunch of snooty bookworm know-it-alls that have to prove you have a bigger brain than everyone else.

No, just a sound understanding of water chemistry and the experience to know what works and what doesn't and WHY (which is the most important part, IMHO).

If the manufacturer started spouting off the reasons why this works and that works and the chemical compounds of this and that most peoples eyes would glaze over and you lose them. Your "pseudoscience" is just puting things in terms most people understand.

NO, pseudoscience is based on the fact that the prospective buyer does not have a science background. the claims of active oxygen sound good but they do not stand up under scrutiny, much like the 'diamond' electrodes which are normally referred to as a carbon electrode which does not sound as 'special'. Diamonds are nothing but carbon in case you didn't know.

What I can tell you from experience is that both silk balance and the NEW salt system from Hot Spring spas WORK.

re: silkbalance , have you done bacterial tests to see how well it keeps the water sanitized? If it is a silver system it is nothing new at all and silver and MPS do work in the hotter waters of a spa. Collodial silver also works in swimming pools and even has EPA approval as a pool and spa disinfectant (but not as a sanitizer) but there were too many staining problems. Once again, no surprises BUT any company that does not want to let you know what you are putting into your water is probably selling snake oil. History has shown this time and again.

Re:salt water chlorine generators...no argument from me that they work, you are preaching to the choir but they are NOT new. They have been used in pools since the 60's and have been in spas for a few years now. Even Autopilot systems, maker of the PoolPilot came out with a spa unit but they no longer offer it and the Genesis bromine generator (which also has carbon electrodes) has been around for a while.)

FWIW, my own pool and spa are sanitized by a salt water chlorine generator and have been for several years now. (You might want to Google electrolysis of water and electrolysis of salt water to learn what is actually happening).

What I also know is that not every watercare program works for every customer. Some people want to enjoy the benefits of a spa, but don't want to test, measure and/ or dose their spa every day or week. Without these alternatives these people would not purchase a spa due to the perceived difficulty (real or not) of spa maintenance.

AND many dealers and also pool builders underemphasize what is needed for proper maintenance to keep the water sanitized to close the sale. It happens more than it should and I know this because, besides working in commercial maintenance I also worked in the aftermarket sector of the industry and had too many customers that came in with major water problems and a lot of bad advice from the dealers that they stopped going to because of the never ending water problems. The number of dealers who don't know the proper way to do a bromine system never ceases to amaze me! If you don't start with a bromide bank in the water on filling you either have NO sanitizer or a chlorine spa! Pool builders for the most part are no better.

Then again their business model is based on number of units sold or built so if telling the truth to prospective customers could hurt sales that is something they really do not want to do, is it?

Bottom line, over the years there have been a LOT of things that were supposed to 'simplify' spa or pool maintenance. Some, such as SWGs do but at an added expense (worth it to me, btw). Others are pure bunk (anyone remember the magnets that were supposed to condition the water? I think they can still be purchased!)

If you want to know more about the new salt system go to the hot springs web site and read the info on the Ace system for yourself.

I have, it's a standard salt generator with carbon electrodes, nothing unusual here.

For a spa salesman (I'm guessing here and also guessing that you have not been in the industry that long) that joined this forum today you are very opinionated but don't seem to have a lot of knowledge under your belt except for what you have learned in a manufacturer's training or literature and no real understanding of water chemistry. I could be wrong about this but based on what you have posted I don't think so.

It's obviously pointless to talk to you. I've already stated that Silkbalance is not a sanitizer several times. And I would like to point out AGAIN that SHOCK is a noun and a verb because that is what a lot of chemical suppliers call their MPS--(spa shock) as well as something you do to the spa. I'm not going to argue chemistry with you because honestly I don't have a degree in it and you could be blowing smoke for all I know(although I'm sure you're not). I am not a salesman (I'm sure you were hoping I was) and I have been in the industry (think TECH) for over seven years and have a fairly good grasp on how the systems work although I may not be able to articulate it as well as you due to my apparently small brain.

[rusty_spa]

rusty_spa, on 05 August 2010 - 12:21 AM, said:

And lastly why do all you so called experts always automatically denounce every product without doing your own independent research? You all sound like a bunch of snooty bookworm know-it-alls that have to prove you have a bigger brain than everyone else. If the manufacturer started spouting off the reasons why this works and that works and the chemical compounds of this and that most peoples eyes would glaze over and you lose them. Your "pseudoscience" is just putting things in terms most people understand. What I can tell you from experience is that both silk balance and the NEW salt system from Hot Spring spas WORK. What I also know is that not every water care program works for every customer. Some people want to enjoy the benefits of a spa, but don't want to test, measure and/ or dose their spa every day or week. Without these alternatives these people would not purchase a spa due to the perceived difficulty (real or not) of spa maintenance. If you want to know more about the new salt system go to the hot springs web site and read the info on the Ace system for yourself.

Thanks, Rusty. Sorry to sound snooty. Not my intention. I DO want to know that the products I use in my spa have a reasonable expectation of effectiveness. For me, being sure the bacterial level in my hot tub is not going to harm my family and friends is important. Perhaps because of my experience in health care, I am a little bit paranoid about this. I certainly appreciate the pioneers who are willing to try new things on faith, and I also appreciate the value of anecdotal evidence. I can read about something all day, and be satisfied that it meets certain scientific standards, but at the end of the day I want to hear from someone who has actual experience with the product. That's one of the reasons I value forums like this one. I've been to the websites. I come here to read about real experiences from real people and to try to find information I am unable to locate on the web.

Thanks, again, for pulling me back down to Earth.

Cheers,

Citysoaker

Sorry for that I didn't mean to insult everyone on here, it's just frustrating when you have hands on experience and there are people still trying to say it doesn't work when clearly it does. I am not a salesperson, I am currently in charge of a valet service department and have been in the industry for over seven years. We test every product we sell and we have had some that didn't work and we discontinued selling them. I too am concerned about bathers health and could truely care less about the bottom line if it means people are sitting in an unhealthy spa. The thing I want to get accross is Silkbalance works to balance the water, but it's not a sanitizer. I concur about info on websites sometimes it's misleading and I agree that direct input from those with experience is best. I also know that not everything works for everyone and it's good to have options.

[waterbear]

It's obviously pointless to talk to you.

Not really, if you keep an open mind you could learn something.

I've already stated that Silkbalance is not a sanitizer several times.

Yes, you have but the website does not make that clear so that is what I was referring to. You also mentioned silver and silver is a spa disinfectant (but not a sanitizer).

And I would like to point out AGAIN that SHOCK is a noun and a verb because that is what a lot of chemical suppliers call their MPS--(spa shock) as well as something you do to the spa.

And the big problem with this is that they also call cal hypo shock, dichlor shock, sodium hypochlorite shock, lithium hypochlorite shock and hydrogen peroxide and sodium percarbonate and sodium persulfate (for use normally with biguanide systems) shock. While all these can be used to shock a spa, to call them all shock when they are very different and not interchangable is confusing at best. It is better to say you are shocking with KMPS or shocking with cal hypo. Chemical suppliers will call it shock to make it seem like a different product so they can charge a different price. Case in point Arch Chemical's HTH brand of spa chemicals. They have a granular chlorine (cal hypo, and a spa shock (cal hypo), they are the same strength cal hypo and according to the very extensive MSDS that Arch used to supply to dealers on CDrom they are identical. A call to Arch basically confirmed this. Two identical products, both the same strength of cal hypo, at two very different price points. Once was over 50% higher in price than the other (but I forget which was which these days).

As far as KMPS goes, there are two major suppliers of it, Dupont (Oxone) who hold the original patents and Caroat (United Initiators--formerly Degussa). It is basically just repackaged (or purchased from china). Interestingly, Dupont does not refer to Oxone (which they also market themselves for pool and spa use) as shock but as a non chlorine oxidizer.

I'm not going to argue chemistry with you because honestly I don't have a degree in it and you could be blowing smoke for all I know(although I'm sure you're not).

I am not. You are new here but you will find that another poster named chem geek and myself tend to be two of the more "chemically literate" posters on here (There are a few others up there like quantumchromodynamics and Hillbilly Hot Tub to name a few so if I forgot to mention you sorry!) and several other forums. I do try and keep the chemistry simple so the average pool or spa owner can understand since there is no escaping the fact that SOME basic chemistry knowledge is needed to maintain a spa or pool. You still have to test pH and understand how TA affects it, you still need to test sanitizer levels, etc. I am sure you are not going to argue with that. One of the problems I see time and again is dealers and builders trying to 'simplify" it to the point that it's a problem and the recommendation of test strips instead of a good reagent test kit, which in the long run is actually easier to use and get meaningful info from.

What I am trying to say is that the knowledge of water chemistry on here is way above the norm and basially BS is pulled apart fairly quickly.

I am not a salesman (I'm sure you were hoping I was)

Not really

and I have been in the industry (think TECH)

that was my second guess actually

for over seven years and have a fairly good grasp on how the systems work although I may not be able to articulate it as well as you due to my apparently small brain.

Techs know the systems but there are not that many that really understand the water chemistry from my experience. Have I said anything that was untrue about the operation of the ACE system besides criticizing the marketing material which, like most marketing material, is more of a fairy tale than a factual document.? This is why all of us are needed in these forums, since we all have different areas of expertise so welcome to the forum and may our future discussions be a bit less 'stressful'.

[citysoaker]

rusty_spa, on 05 August 2010 - 12:21 AM, said:

And lastly why do all you so called experts always automatically denounce every product without doing your own independent research? You all sound like a bunch of snooty bookworm know-it-alls that have to prove you have a bigger brain than everyone else. If the manufacturer started spouting off the reasons why this works and that works and the chemical compounds of this and that most peoples eyes would glaze over and you lose them. Your "pseudoscience" is just putting things in terms most people understand. What I can tell you from experience is that both silk balance and the NEW salt system from Hot Spring spas WORK. What I also know is that not every water care program works for every customer. Some people want to enjoy the benefits of a spa, but don't want to test, measure and/ or dose their spa every day or week. Without these alternatives these people would not purchase a spa due to the perceived difficulty (real or not) of spa maintenance. If you want to know more about the new salt system go to the hot springs web site and read the info on the Ace system for yourself.

Thanks, Rusty. Sorry to sound snooty. Not my intention. I DO want to know that the products I use in my spa have a reasonable expectation of effectiveness. For me, being sure the bacterial level in my hot tub is not going to harm my family and friends is important. Perhaps because of my experience in health care, I am a little bit paranoid about this. I certainly appreciate the pioneers who are willing to try new things on faith, and I also appreciate the value of anecdotal evidence. I can read about something all day, and be satisfied that it meets certain scientific standards, but at the end of the day I want to hear from someone who has actual experience with the product. That's one of the reasons I value forums like this one. I've been to the websites. I come here to read about real experiences from real people and to try to find information I am unable to locate on the web.

Thanks, again, for pulling me back down to Earth.

Cheers,

Citysoaker

Sorry for that I didn't mean to insult everyone on here, it's just frustrating when you have hands on experience and there are people still trying to say it doesn't work when clearly it does. I am not a salesperson, I am currently in charge of a valet service department and have been in the industry for over seven years. We test every product we sell and we have had some that didn't work and we discontinued selling them. I too am concerned about bathers health and could truely care less about the bottom line if it means people are sitting in an unhealthy spa. The thing I want to get accross is Silkbalance works to balance the water, but it's not a sanitizer. I concur about info on websites sometimes it's misleading and I agree that direct input from those with experience is best. I also know that not everything works for everyone and it's good to have options.

[citysoaker]

Rusty,

Do you know of anyone who has used Silkbalance with a biguanide sanitizer? What do you think of the idea? How often do you end up doing a complete water change with Silkbalance? When you use it with chlorine, how much of a chlorine smell do you notice? I use my spa almost daily and sometimes twice a day, and when I tried chlorine or bromide, I found that, after a few days, my skin started to smell like those chemicals. What is your experience?

Thanks!

Citysoaker