Master (down East) -- What's The Beef?

[Barfly]

I'm looking for a spa in 8 x 8 ft size with one lounge seat. A local dealer has a new 2004 Down East Portsmouth SE on sale for $7,400 including cover and ozone. Looking on this forum I see several references to avoid Master, but no details except they are possibly not the most energy efficient. So here are some questions:

What's wrong with Master?

Are there specific issues with Master's Down East brand?

Is this a good price?

Any other issues I should be aware of?

The spa will be on a concrete pad about 18" below the deck surface. I'm in northern CA. My only prior experience was with a 15 yr old Cal Spa 7 ft octagon which came with the house. It was basic, very loud, but held up okay. Any info is appreciated.

Thanks!

[Roger]

I'm looking for a spa in 8 x 8 ft size with one lounge seat. A local dealer has a new 2004 Down East Portsmouth SE on sale for $7,400 including cover and ozone. Looking on this forum I see several references to avoid Master, but no details except they are possibly not the most energy efficient. So here are some questions:

What's wrong with Master?

Are there specific issues with Master's Down East brand?

Is this a good price?

Any other issues I should be aware of?

The spa will be on a concrete pad about 18" below the deck surface. I'm in northern CA. My only prior experience was with a 15 yr old Cal Spa 7 ft octagon which came with the house. It was basic, very loud, but held up okay. Any info is appreciated.

Thanks!

That is real real high for a tub thats worth about 5-6 grand new and it's 4 years old. I would say more like 2 grand for a 4 year old Down East, which is Master Spa's value brand.

[aduvall]

I'm looking for a spa in 8 x 8 ft size with one lounge seat. A local dealer has a new 2004 Down East Portsmouth SE on sale for $7,400 including cover and ozone. Looking on this forum I see several references to avoid Master, but no details except they are possibly not the most energy efficient. So here are some questions:

What's wrong with Master?

Are there specific issues with Master's Down East brand?

Is this a good price?

Any other issues I should be aware of?

The spa will be on a concrete pad about 18" below the deck surface. I'm in northern CA. My only prior experience was with a 15 yr old Cal Spa 7 ft octagon which came with the house. It was basic, very loud, but held up okay. Any info is appreciated.

Thanks!

I agree with roger, he seems to have plenty of experiance..

I don't know what prices are like in CA, but here in Michigan I just bought a brand new Hot springs for $7000.

***********I would check around if I were you.

[hottubdan]

I'm looking for a spa in 8 x 8 ft size with one lounge seat. A local dealer has a new 2004 Down East Portsmouth SE on sale for $7,400 including cover and ozone. Looking on this forum I see several references to avoid Master, but no details except they are possibly not the most energy efficient. So here are some questions:

What's wrong with Master?

Are there specific issues with Master's Down East brand?

Is this a good price?

Any other issues I should be aware of?

The spa will be on a concrete pad about 18" below the deck surface. I'm in northern CA. My only prior experience was with a 15 yr old Cal Spa 7 ft octagon which came with the house. It was basic, very loud, but held up okay. Any info is appreciated.

Thanks!

I agree with roger, he seems to have plenty of experiance..

I don't know what prices are like in CA, but here in Michigan I just bought a brand new Hot springs for $7000.

***********I would check around if I were you.

It's really a "new" 2004 spa? The dealer has had it for 4 years? What is the story?

[Barfly]

... A local dealer has a NEW 2004 Down East Portsmouth SE...

I agree with roger, he seems to have plenty of experiance..

I don't know what prices are like in CA, but here in Michigan I just bought a brand new Hot springs for $7000.

***********I would check around if I were you.

I guess you guys missed it. This is a new spa. Looking at the Down East web site, it appears to be a current model.

Can anyone answer the question, why the bias against Master? I understand that Down East is a lower price line than the Master branded ones. What are the differences?

Thanks.

[Barfly]

It's really a "new" 2004 spa? The dealer has had it for 4 years? What is the story?

No story at all. He has another line of business and carries a significant inventory of tubs. Perhaps overbought a few years ago. There are a number of other brands, although more Cal Spas than anything else.

Do dealers really sell the Down East Portsmouth SE spa between $5-6K?? I'm skeptical, but would want to know if it is true. If it is something pulled out of a dark place near the backside of one's trousers, that's not very helpful.

Is a Hot Springs spa better? If so, why? There's a Hot Springs dealer in town, but I didn't care for the sales style. The fellow with the Down East has been around for many years, seems honest, and was very helpful when I replaced the cover for my old Cal Spa about 5 years ago.

[Roger]

Do dealers really sell the Down East Portsmouth SE spa between $5-6K?? I'm skeptical, but would want to know if it is true. If it is something pulled out of a dark place near the backside of one's trousers, that's not very helpful.

You have my opinion, If you don't want it then at the very most don't use it. But insinuating it was pulled from my A** deserves no more help. Good luck in your search. Matter of fact go ahead and buy that tub...sounds like a fabulous deal to my dark side!

[Dan.The.Spa.Man]

It's really a "new" 2004 spa? The dealer has had it for 4 years? What is the story?

No story at all. He has another line of business and carries a significant inventory of tubs. Perhaps overbought a few years ago. There are a number of other brands, although more Cal Spas than anything else.

Do dealers really sell the Down East Portsmouth SE spa between $5-6K?? I'm skeptical, but would want to know if it is true. If it is something pulled out of a dark place near the backside of one's trousers, that's not very helpful.

Is a Hot Springs spa better? If so, why? There's a Hot Springs dealer in town, but I didn't care for the sales style. The fellow with the Down East has been around for many years, seems honest, and was very helpful when I replaced the cover for my old Cal Spa about 5 years ago.

Wow, he could have a thousand tubs in inventory and it still would amaze me that there is a new 2004 model available without some sort of story behind the tub or the dealer. It may be 'new', but $7400 for a tub that was made 5 years ago seems ridiculous to me. I have an '08 HotSpring Envoy for $7950 right now, and that spa and price blows the Master brand out of the water.

I haven't seen a Master Spa in person to work on, but I don't think I've seen any positive posts on any of the message boards that I belong to over the last few years.

As you mentioned, I would be very skeptical as well.

[hottubdan]

It's really a "new" 2004 spa? The dealer has had it for 4 years? What is the story?

No story at all. He has another line of business and carries a significant inventory of tubs. Perhaps overbought a few years ago. There are a number of other brands, although more Cal Spas than anything else.

Do dealers really sell the Down East Portsmouth SE spa between $5-6K?? I'm skeptical, but would want to know if it is true. If it is something pulled out of a dark place near the backside of one's trousers, that's not very helpful.

Is a Hot Springs spa better? If so, why? There's a Hot Springs dealer in town, but I didn't care for the sales style. The fellow with the Down East has been around for many years, seems honest, and was very helpful when I replaced the cover for my old Cal Spa about 5 years ago.

Where in northern CA are you?

The primary beef with Master Spas in General is their primary deceitful marketing. They go to towns with shows claiming to represent several brands, when, all it is is several of their brands.

They are generally considered a middle of the pack manufacturer and Down East is their lower end product.

Hot Spring is considered better by most for a variety of reasons. Three are variety of jets, energy efficiency ease of use.

If truly a 2004 spa you need to check the warranty. You need to see the warranty for that spa in writing. Generally spa warranties start with date of delivery. However, as they age, they often start with date of manufacture. Also want to check if it is pro-rated.

Finally, I would find it strange to guy from someone who "has another line of business" and has a significant inventory of old outdated spas.

[Barfly]

Where in northern CA are you?

The primary beef with Master Spas in General is their primary deceitful marketing. They go to towns with shows claiming to represent several brands, when, all it is is several of their brands.

They are generally considered a middle of the pack manufacturer and Down East is their lower end product.

Hot Spring is considered better by most for a variety of reasons. Three are variety of jets, energy efficiency ease of use.

If truly a 2004 spa you need to check the warranty. You need to see the warranty for that spa in writing. Generally spa warranties start with date of delivery. However, as they age, they often start with date of manufacture. Also want to check if it is pro-rated.

Finally, I would find it strange to guy from someone who "has another line of business" and has a significant inventory of old outdated spas.

Thanks for the info. I'm in Sonoma county. I agree it is strange. He told me that it would have the full warranty. You know, in these days of "green" everything, it is surprising that manufacturers don't publish an energy efficiency specification. One inefficient spa is probably worth an entire house full of compact fluorescent bulbs... Here's what I'll do next:

Visit the Hot Springs dealer--

1. Check prices on models with comparable features (size, number of pumps, seating arrangement, ...)

2. Inquire and look for other differences.

Call Master--

1. Ask about 2004 model sold new today, specifically changes from current year and warranty.

2. Find differences between Master and Down East brands.

3. Check for feedback on this specific dealer.

I'll report back what I find.

What do you mean by ease of use? The filters look easy to access, controls are temp up/down and on/off for the various pumps, lights. What am I missing?

[spatech (the unreal one)]

What's wrong with Master?

Are there specific issues with Master's Down East brand?

Is this a good price?

Any other issues I should be aware of?

Regarding your 4 specific questions:

1) Master is not the favorite of a few for a couple reasons. In my persoanly opinion, they are not a quality made spa and are very energy inefficient. There are other brands who I'd also say that about but Masters issues go beyond those two things (though they're more than enoug to scare me away).

The other reason Master gets a bad name is their corporate office sends a sales team around the country to sell spas at events and is VERY ruthless in their heavy handed, flat out deceptive techniques such as advertising its a multi brand spa show when in reality they're the only brand you'll see when you get there or telling prospective owners that after they pulls up stakes and run out of town a local store selling a competing brand will service the spa if needed when that is totally false. If corporate endorses such slimy techniques to unload as many spas as they can and then slip out of town you don't have to wonder what your warranty service will be like when needed down the road.

2) The Down East brand is simply the dressed down version to Master's top brand, same so-so spa, different wrapping paper.

3) No, that seems noticeably high.

4) Those are the issues that give Master the reputation they've earned. I wouldn't buy one of their marginal-at-best spas if they were selling them for half price either at one of their bait-and-switch traveling circus tent shows or from a dealer who was desperate enough to sell that brand.

[hottubdan]

Where in northern CA are you?

The primary beef with Master Spas in General is their primary deceitful marketing. They go to towns with shows claiming to represent several brands, when, all it is is several of their brands.

They are generally considered a middle of the pack manufacturer and Down East is their lower end product.

Hot Spring is considered better by most for a variety of reasons. Three are variety of jets, energy efficiency ease of use.

If truly a 2004 spa you need to check the warranty. You need to see the warranty for that spa in writing. Generally spa warranties start with date of delivery. However, as they age, they often start with date of manufacture. Also want to check if it is pro-rated.

Finally, I would find it strange to guy from someone who "has another line of business" and has a significant inventory of old outdated spas.

Thanks for the info. I'm in Sonoma county. I agree it is strange. He told me that it would have the full warranty. You know, in these days of "green" everything, it is surprising that manufacturers don't publish an energy efficiency specification. One inefficient spa is probably worth an entire house full of compact fluorescent bulbs... Here's what I'll do next:

Visit the Hot Springs dealer--

1. Check prices on models with comparable features (size, number of pumps, seating arrangement, ...)

2. Inquire and look for other differences.

Call Master--

1. Ask about 2004 model sold new today, specifically changes from current year and warranty.

2. Find differences between Master and Down East brands.

3. Check for feedback on this specific dealer.

I'll report back what I find.

What do you mean by ease of use? The filters look easy to access, controls are temp up/down and on/off for the various pumps, lights. What am I missing?

Controlling of individual seats and jets. Ease of care with circulation pump, no-bypass filtration.

Ask to see the energy guide in Hot Spring brochure. Reports 3rd party testing. Master Spa will not have anything like that.

Compare how they are insulated. Also, check out running models. Don't get confused by pump size and number of jets. Consider the way they feel.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Master Spa will not have anything like that.

Compare how they are insulated. Also, check out running models. Don't get confused by pump size and number of jets. Consider the way they feel.

I’m sure someone in Marketing at Master can Photoshop an energy efficiency label and fax it as proof that their spas are efficient LOL.

I saw Master's brochure a few weeks back and they have a section about how energy efficient their spas are. Then again, McDonald's probably has information explaining how a Big Mac and fries makes for a nutritious lunch. I find their claims of energy efficiency hilarious but its not funny when you own the spa and need a loan to pay the power company.

[RickJ]

I own a Down East spa. I have the East Hampton, which is the 8'X10' beast.

In 2004 I stopped at a Master Spa dealer, and looked at their tubs. I liked the East Hampton because it was huge, and it was deep. (I'm 6'6", and I wanted something that was deep). They talked about how energy efficient the Master Spas were, and how great the tubs were in general. However, I couldn't afford one at the time, (I think it was around $10K). The dealer even offered me a leftover 2003 model for about $8K, but it was still more than I could afford. So I took a brochure and left.

I never went to another spa dealer. (mistake #1?)

Then, about two years later, I saw a used East Hampton on Craigslist for $2,200. It was a 2003 model that the guy had bought from the Master Spa dealer in 2004. Yup, the same tub that the dealer offered to me for $8K. The guy selling it was moving, and the new owners of his house didn't want a hot tub. So he priced is super cheap, and I was the first to see the ad. I bought the tub on the spot, even though he had already drained it. So I never saw it running. (Mistake #2). I also never wet tested the spa (mistake #3).

I asked the previous owner about how much electricity the spa used. He said it wasn't much, maybe $20-30 per month. (mistake #4, I believed him)

I had the dealer remove the spa from the previous owner's place, and deliver it to me.

Once it was set up, I saw my electric bill more than double. In fact, I would say that it added about $100/month to run the tub. (this was during the winter).

So my only real complaint with the tub is the energy efficiency. I have reinsulated my tub with 2" Styrofoam (the pink stuff) and then wrapped the whole thing with the foil insulation. I did that last fall, and for this year my electric bill is about 20-30% cheaper than it was the previous two winters.

I have also had several jets break. But these are replacable items, so I don't think that's a problem with Master. Otherwise, its been a good spa for me. But I bought cheap, so I am putting up with a lot more than I would have if I paid $8-10K for the thing.

I also went away from the Master Spa eco pur filters. They are too expensive. I switched to a Pleatco filter, and have saved a ton of money, and had no water chemistry issues. But, I also run a low amount of chlorine (1 ppm) at all time.

I hope my long story helps you make up your mind. I would say that the takeaway from this is that:

1) Master Spas are terribly inefficent. They use a lot of energy, especially in cold climates (I'm in Minnesota)

2) Master Spas do not hold their value as well as other spas. (at least in my case. losing 75% of the value in two years is excessive).

Oh, and as a side note - the guy I bought my tub from went on to spend $1 million dollar to build a house that incorporated all sorts of energy efficient features in it. He was featured in the local newspaper. One thing I noticed, no hot tub in the house at all.

[bizdoc]

Irrespective of the brand, I would have some questions about any new spa that had been sitting idle for 4 years or so--what is the impact on pump seals, etc. If it was wet tested at some point, a likely occurrence, there has been a long time opportunity for thing to grow in places you cant see.

[Markee]

I would highly recommend staying away from a Master Spa, and that price seems outrageous.

I would check out some other brands in your area. Marquis has a dealer in Cotati:

Sonoma Backyard

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I'm in northern CA.

In case you're going to next ask "who would you recommend over Master", besides the obvious answer of "most anyone else" here's a short list of spa makers I personally would recommend over Master, by far. If you go to these sites they'll have a dealer locator (just enter your zip code) to see if they have a dealer in your area (not all will):

http://www.arcticspas.com

http://www.calderaspas.com/Locator/index.html

http://www.d1spas.com/find-local-dealer.html

http://www.hotspring.com/index_spas_hot_spring.html

http://www.jacuzzi.com/products/

http://www.marquisspas.com/storelocator/

http://retailer.sundancespas.com/Retailers/index.php

I'd also go with Artesian, Beachcomer, Bullfrog and a quite few others long before I'd consider a Master but again, that's just my opinion.

[Pool Clown]

Ask the guy if the warr. will be with him or the manufacturer. I'm in the POOL business not really hot tubs. If I had a filter or a heater on the shelf for that long, I don't think They would honor the unit as NEW. See if you can get the serial number and call the manufacturer. Maybe then you could get the real story. Also, anyone, If a tub sits on the shelf for 4 plus years w/o any water, could the water tight seals dry out and be a problem? Thats what I would worry about more than anything cuz some leaks could be real difficult to fix! Bad parts can be swapped out easier.

[JerimiahR]

I'm looking for a spa in 8 x 8 ft size with one lounge seat. A local dealer has a new 2004 Down East Portsmouth SE on sale for $7,400 including cover and ozone. Looking on this forum I see several references to avoid Master, but no details except they are possibly not the most energy efficient. So here are some questions:

What's wrong with Master?

Are there specific issues with Master's Down East brand?

Is this a good price?

Any other issues I should be aware of?

The spa will be on a concrete pad about 18" below the deck surface. I'm in northern CA. My only prior experience was with a 15 yr old Cal Spa 7 ft octagon which came with the house. It was basic, very loud, but held up okay. Any info is appreciated.

Thanks!

I wouldn't pay $7,400 for any 4 year old spa frankly, even if it was "New". I'm not a fan of Master Spas either, but I won't get into bashing.

If he has a 2004 spa, that's "Brand New" I'd be asking questions as to where on earth this spa came from. Also there's great worry to be had with regards to the warranty. Most manufacturers (of ANY product) will require their warranty period to begin either when the customer takes possession, or by a certain time after the manufacturing date. As an example, Master Spas may require the warranty period to begin no later than 1 year after the spa was actually made. So let's say they had a 5 year warranty, that means that time period started sometime in 2005. Which would mean here in 2009, you'd be lucky to get a full year warranty out of it.

Keep in mind that's just an example to express the warranty issue. The dealer may also tell you they will personally cover your warranty for whatever time period. That means nothing unless you trust that specific dealer to honor that.

The fact that he's got a brand new 2004 that he hasn't been able to sell until today does make me wonder what's going on. I'm selling off all our 2008 Hot Spring stock right now, and haven't had even a 2007 model in inventory for several months....

I'd look at your Hot Spring dealer again myself. Sales style can vary from dealer to dealer, from salesperson to salesperson. So I'm sorry to hear you didn't like your representative's style. I can assure you though, any Hot Spring made spa is a much better product.

[realDrew]

I purchased a 2008 Down East - Windsor model last October and have had only one problem so far. The stock filters caused a LF code so I only use the pleated type now.

In the Toronto area we have had a few really cold months, and it looks like my hydro bill is up about $100/mth for the past 2 months. Of course part of that increase is due to the hydro rates jumping up this year too.

I like my tub, but wouldn't mind a foot jet system in the tub, which this does not have.

It does have a tv, which is really great for Seinfeld dvd's.

The price was great at the time, and it probably dropped another 35% by now too. I mean, when you walk into one of those stores with cash, it talks.

I hope I continue to have a great experience with my MasterSpa, and to tell you the truth I don't think I would have bought a tub if it were more expensive.

I'm looking for a spa in 8 x 8 ft size with one lounge seat. A local dealer has a new 2004 Down East Portsmouth SE on sale for $7,400 including cover and ozone. Looking on this forum I see several references to avoid Master, but no details except they are possibly not the most energy efficient. So here are some questions:

What's wrong with Master?

Are there specific issues with Master's Down East brand?

Is this a good price?

Any other issues I should be aware of?

The spa will be on a concrete pad about 18" below the deck surface. I'm in northern CA. My only prior experience was with a 15 yr old Cal Spa 7 ft octagon which came with the house. It was basic, very loud, but held up okay. Any info is appreciated.

Thanks!

[Barfly]

Thanks for all the replies and info. Here's the latest... I called Master. They said that in fact I would get the full warranty even though it is a 2004 model. However, it would be the warranty that they offered at that time, which is 2 years on electronics, motors, and 5 years on the structure (I'm not looking at my notes, so might have that a little wrong). He also confirmed that the place where I saw it is the legit dealer for this area. I asked about energy usage and got a not very satisfactory reply as to why they don't publish any specs. In general, the fellow I spoke to was courteous and helpful. He said the Down East brand is identical in quality to other Master spas, made in the same factory, and the difference was in the features and options available.

That said, I've decided against this Down East for a number of reasons:

1. The Master dealer does not seem as committed to customer satisfaction as some others I visited.

2. This spa runs the large jet pump for filtering rather than a dedicated continuous low wattage circulation pump.

3. All things considered, it's not that great of a deal.

4. The warranty isn't as good as others.

5. Concern about power consumption.

6. Master's reputation for customer support is poor at best.

So now what?! The Hot Springs dealer has an '08 Envoy for about $8000. It seems like a good product, but just doesn't appeal to me for no reason in particular. There's an L.A. Spas dealer near my office that has an '08 Solera for $8995. It has the groovy waterfall and multicolor LED lighting. This is the current front runner.

Any feedback on L.A. Spas would be appreciated.

Also, there seems to be a huge difference in price between an '08 on the floor and ordering an '09. For spas in this category, $2000+. I understand the motivation to move existing inventory, but given the option of making a sale or not, will they be as competitive on a spa they need to order?

Thanks.

[hottubdan]

Did you look at the Limelight Flair when you were at the Hot Spring store?

[spatech (the unreal one)]

It has the groovy waterfall and multicolor LED lighting. This is the current front runner.

No offense but I can think of a lot of things to consider when purchasing a spa but I hope you're not really being swayed by a "groovy waterfall and LED lighting". Those things are nice but should be afterthoughts IMO. That's like deciding on a particular car brand because you love the dashboard lights and stickshift knob.

Take a minute and set aside the shiny things that have caught your eye and make sure the spa you’re getting is very well made, well insulated, sturdy and that the dealer is someone who you think will be there after the sale for you.

[spa sales rep]

Why do you say that Master Has poor Customer Service? I am an independent sales rep and I've been one for over 15 Years. I have sold Hot Springs, Cal Spas, Coleman Spas, LA Spas, D1, Caldera, Jacuzzi, Sundance, Master, Down East, Marquis and many more...They all have their positive attributes. Each manufacture gives us their philosophy. I have personally visited all of their factories and met the owners and managers. I have even sold at those spa shows that everyone is talking about. There seems to be a lot of envy on the part of non Master Spa dealers because they do sell a lot of spas...I didn't like Master Spas until I got to know some of them. I had heard all the horror stories that are on these forums. Most of them aren't true. Sure they probably have some bad apples.So does every brand...I like selling at these big spa shows over a small home because a consumer can see 10 times what they will see at a Home Show. At the events I have worked at, I have seen and sold Vita Spas, D!, LA Spas, Hawkeye, Softub, Sundance, MAAX, Hot Springs,Cal Spas,Leisure Bay Spas, Legacy Spas and others. When you say Master Quality is lacking, what are you basing it on? Spa Search Magazine just did their second study in the past 5 years where they rate the top 10 spa manufactures. They pick hundreds of customers from the manufactures data base at random and call them and ask the owners rate their spas. The manufactures get grades and they see where they stand. They get a report card and the results show the high score, the low score, the average score and their score. It doesn't show their competitors score by company. I've seen these results from almost all the manufactures I have sold for over the past 5 years. Master Spas had the highest score in Quality with a score of over 95%. The low was 72%. The average score was 83%. I call every customer I sell and ask them how their experience was with each dealer and manufacturer. I get a lot of referral business this way. Most customers are happy with what they buy except for the buyers that buy the 110 volt plug in spas..No matter the brand.

The Best Spa Quality Results from the Spa Owners were:

#1 Master Spas #2 Sundance Spas #3 Caldera #4 Jacuzzi. #5 Marquis #6 Clearwater #7 Hot Springs, #8 D1 #9 Arctic #10 LA Spas.

There is no JD Powers study available yet. So this is the most credible study so far... Most buyers would be happy with the brands listed.

Take Care and thanks for servicing some of the brands I sell...

I'm in northern CA.

In case you're going to next ask "who would you recommend over Master", besides the obvious answer of "most anyone else" here's a short list of spa makers I personally would recommend over Master, by far. If you go to these sites they'll have a dealer locator (just enter your zip code) to see if they have a dealer in your area (not all will):

http://www.arcticspas.com

http://www.calderaspas.com/Locator/index.html

http://www.d1spas.com/find-local-dealer.html

http://www.hotspring.com/index_spas_hot_spring.html

http://www.jacuzzi.com/products/

http://www.marquisspas.com/storelocator/

http://retailer.sundancespas.com/Retailers/index.php

I'd also go with Artesian, Beachcomer, Bullfrog and a quite few others long before I'd consider a Master but again, that's just my opinion.

[spa sales rep]

LA Spas are pretty good. What city do you live in? I have worked for many of their dealers.

I think you might be wrong on getting a full warranty on a 2004 Down East Master Spa. Who told you that? Their warranty is 5 years structure and 3 years parts and labor. What Master Store did you visit? I've worked for many of them also. The new Down East spas have a circ. pump. I speak to many people that bought spas from me and they say the Master or Down East Spas are very efficient. They use Icynene foam that doesn't absorb water, mildew or lose it's R value as fast as regular spa foam does. The quality of the Master and Down East spas are equal. The Master has a longer Warranty, more jets and a few other items. What size spa are you looking for? My advise is to go with more pumps and jets. Also make sure you get a spa with a Microban shell. They are easier to take care of...And get a spa with a good foot, neck and shoulder jets system...Good Luck

Thanks for all the replies and info. Here's the latest... I called Master. They said that in fact I would get the full warranty even though it is a 2004 model. However, it would be the warranty that they offered at that time, which is 2 years on electronics, motors, and 5 years on the structure (I'm not looking at my notes, so might have that a little wrong). He also confirmed that the place where I saw it is the legit dealer for this area. I asked about energy usage and got a not very satisfactory reply as to why they don't publish any specs. In general, the fellow I spoke to was courteous and helpful. He said the Down East brand is identical in quality to other Master spas, made in the same factory, and the difference was in the features and options available.

That said, I've decided against this Down East for a number of reasons:

1. The Master dealer does not seem as committed to customer satisfaction as some others I visited.

2. This spa runs the large jet pump for filtering rather than a dedicated continuous low wattage circulation pump.

3. All things considered, it's not that great of a deal.

4. The warranty isn't as good as others.

5. Concern about power consumption.

6. Master's reputation for customer support is poor at best.

So now what?! The Hot Springs dealer has an '08 Envoy for about $8000. It seems like a good product, but just doesn't appeal to me for no reason in particular. There's an L.A. Spas dealer near my office that has an '08 Solera for $8995. It has the groovy waterfall and multicolor LED lighting. This is the current front runner.

Any feedback on L.A. Spas would be appreciated.

Also, there seems to be a huge difference in price between an '08 on the floor and ordering an '09. For spas in this category, $2000+. I understand the motivation to move existing inventory, but given the option of making a sale or not, will they be as competitive on a spa they need to order?

Thanks.