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"milky Water" When Jets Turned On


Kapp

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It has been a few months since this was discussed (back in Nov) in the forum. I found this site by searching for this problem in hot tubs. I have posted a couple times back on that thread and have not heard back so will try a new topic to see if anyone with the same problem found the cause/solution.

Water is crystal clear, all levels balanced. Turn on the jets and the tub is instantly white like milk. You can see the millions of tiny bubbles cloud the tub. If jets are shut off, it clears in less then a minute or two to crystal clear again. Filters clean, water about 3 months old. I am using Bromine tablets in floater and have an ozonator on the tub. Bromine level nearly always shows low or none at all a day after the weekly shock. Could it be Bromine level related? As was mentioned in the earlier thread about this topic (and anyone with this problem will know) it looks just gross and no one wants to get it. Almost like someone dumped gallons of milk in the tub. Anyone with any luck finding/solving this? Thanks

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Mine does exactly the same thing. I have been using bromine as well and the levels always seem to be high. I don't recall having this problem with Chlorine. Is this foam issue caused by the bromine? The foam and bubbles are rediculouse when the jets are running but the water is crystal clear any other time.

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Kapp & Leland-

Are you getting any kind of excessive standing foam on the top of the water while the jets are running, or is it just the milky look in the water?

John

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As your TDS gets higher, the water gets "thicker" causeing this to happen, bubbles from air being introduced in water don't clear out as quickly. As far as the bromine reading going back to zero the next day, you need to super shock the tub. You have organics in the water that are not being oxidized well enough causing you to use up the bromine.

You can also try a clarifer such as Sea Klear, this is all natural, safe for environment and babies.

It is not uncommon to need a water change in 3 months on bromine with the amount of people using the spa, specially a baby.

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Kapp & Leland-

Are you getting any kind of excessive standing foam on the top of the water while the jets are running, or is it just the milky look in the water?

John

I don't have any foam at all, only the milky water underneath the surface the instant the jets are turned on. Interestingly, it seems to be much worse from three of the four corners (we have an Artesian Spa Quail Ridge with 4 separate motors in each corner that can be turned on indpendently) One motor in the lounge seat doesen't seem to be as bad. I only mention that to see if it "strikes a chord" but if you use any of the the other three you instantly have white milky water throughout tub until jets are turned off and it clears in a minute...Kapp

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Kapp~

OK, let's see where we are. The reason I asked about the foam is that standing foam is generally a good indicator of several possible issues with the water. My first thought was high TDS and/or high organic level, just as HillbillyHT is indicating, and I'm still leaning a bit in that direction. But it's still inconclusive and I'm still not convinced.

Here's why. High organic levels in the water could explain the rapid dissipation of the shock and the constant low bromine levels, and the constant low bromine levels could be a contributing factor to a high organic level. However, that said, high organics will generally present themselves as standing foam as well. That is, unless you are regularly using a DEFOAMER in your spa.

High TDS can also cause this but, again, usually presents with standing foam and a scum line around the top of the spa. TDS stands for Total Dissolved Solids, and results from everything you have dissolved into the water in your spa. It's just like when you add salt to a pan of water. You can keep adding salt to the pan of water until the water can't hold anymore and the added salt just lays in the bottom of the pan. Same with the spa. As you add balancing chemicals, sanitizers, scents, debris from the skin, etc, eventually the water reaches a point of saturation where it has difficulty holding anything else in solution. That said, I really don't suspect that as your problem.

Just to make sure we're on track here, could you give me some feedback on the following questions?

1. Are you regularly using defoamer in the spa and, if so, how often do you add it? Just as you need it or as a regular part of your maintenance regimen?

2. Do you recall this being a problem when your spa water was newly added?

3. What are you using to shock the spa? What I'm interested in here is the chemical, not the brand name ie. monopersulfate (non-chlorine shock), calcium hypochlorite, etc. And approximately how much shock are you adding?

4. How many gallons of water in your spa?

Kapp, I'm strongly leaning toward the super shock that Hillbilly Hot Tub suggested, but I will feel much more certain about my conclusions after getting your answers to these questions.

And a quick note to HillbillyHT. Although I've been in the business longer than many of these techs have been alive, and have helped out on many online pool/spa forums, I'm new on this particular forum and the folks that frequent here. I was just reading some of your other posts in some of the other threads, and it warms my heart to know that I'm not the only detail driven, chemically fluent overzealous geek out there. There is someone else like me! KUDOS! Yes, it makes for wordy answers, but if you teach folks all you can and they only remember half, it's still more than they knew when you got started. My hat is off to you!

John

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Kapp~

OK, let's see where we are. The reason I asked about the foam is that standing foam is generally a good indicator of several possible issues with the water. My first thought was high TDS and/or high organic level, just as HillbillyHT is indicating, and I'm still leaning a bit in that direction. But it's still inconclusive and I'm still not convinced.

Here's why. High organic levels in the water could explain the rapid dissipation of the shock and the constant low bromine levels, and the constant low bromine levels could be a contributing factor to a high organic level. However, that said, high organics will generally present themselves as standing foam as well. That is, unless you are regularly using a DEFOAMER in your spa.

High TDS can also cause this but, again, usually presents with standing foam and a scum line around the top of the spa. TDS stands for Total Dissolved Solids, and results from everything you have dissolved into the water in your spa. It's just like when you add salt to a pan of water. You can keep adding salt to the pan of water until the water can't hold anymore and the added salt just lays in the bottom of the pan. Same with the spa. As you add balancing chemicals, sanitizers, scents, debris from the skin, etc, eventually the water reaches a point of saturation where it has difficulty holding anything else in solution. That said, I really don't suspect that as your problem.

Just to make sure we're on track here, could you give me some feedback on the following questions?

1. Are you regularly using defoamer in the spa and, if so, how often do you add it? Just as you need it or as a regular part of your maintenance regimen?

2. Do you recall this being a problem when your spa water was newly added?

3. What are you using to shock the spa? What I'm interested in here is the chemical, not the brand name ie. monopersulfate (non-chlorine shock), calcium hypochlorite, etc. And approximately how much shock are you adding?

4. How many gallons of water in your spa?

Kapp, I'm strongly leaning toward the super shock that Hillbilly Hot Tub suggested, but I will feel much more certain about my conclusions after getting your answers to these questions.

And a quick note to HillbillyHT. Although I've been in the business longer than many of these techs have been alive, and have helped out on many online pool/spa forums, I'm new on this particular forum and the folks that frequent here. I was just reading some of your other posts in some of the other threads, and it warms my heart to know that I'm not the only detail driven, chemically fluent overzealous geek out there. There is someone else like me! KUDOS! Yes, it makes for wordy answers, but if you teach folks all you can and they only remember half, it's still more than they knew when you got started. My hat is off to you!

John

1) no not using foam reducers much at all and still getting very little if any foam on top of the water, I think I have used a few capfuls twice during the last 3 months and not at all in the last month. I have tried the clarifier several times (Leisure Time "bright and clear" 2 oz each time) hoping that would combine all those tiny bubbles to be caught in filter.

2)No it was not a problem in the beginning, the water was crystal clear with or without jets on

3)I am using Leiseure Time "Renew" "non cholorie shock oxidizer" bottle says 32% Potassium Peroxymonosulfate and 68% "other ingredients (whatever that means) Approx 1 time a week 4 tablespoons of powder (says 2 oz) (mixed in the current tub water a container prior to dumping in tub) 4)

Our tub is 345 Gallons.

Just did another test strip test and all levels very good maybe a tiny bit on the low end of "ideal" for al and ph but again "0" bromine showing on strip and looking at the floater with bromine tabs in it, they are definately dissolving in the water. I used two new tabs and the leftover small pieces from the week(s) before so bromine IS dissolving in the water. Still have the "Milky water" the second I turn on the jets. I did think of one other variable I should mention that i just thought of. I did try one capful of "spa fragrance" about a month ago. I am looking at the bottle I used and it only used a very small amount (1oz) once to try it out. Haven't used it since but thinking it was such a small amount once it couldn't be a factor in the equation but maybe. Thanks Kapp

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Kapp~

OK, let's see where we are. The reason I asked about the foam is that standing foam is generally a good indicator of several possible issues with the water. My first thought was high TDS and/or high organic level, just as HillbillyHT is indicating, and I'm still leaning a bit in that direction. But it's still inconclusive and I'm still not convinced.

Here's why. High organic levels in the water could explain the rapid dissipation of the shock and the constant low bromine levels, and the constant low bromine levels could be a contributing factor to a high organic level. However, that said, high organics will generally present themselves as standing foam as well. That is, unless you are regularly using a DEFOAMER in your spa.

High TDS can also cause this but, again, usually presents with standing foam and a scum line around the top of the spa. TDS stands for Total Dissolved Solids, and results from everything you have dissolved into the water in your spa. It's just like when you add salt to a pan of water. You can keep adding salt to the pan of water until the water can't hold anymore and the added salt just lays in the bottom of the pan. Same with the spa. As you add balancing chemicals, sanitizers, scents, debris from the skin, etc, eventually the water reaches a point of saturation where it has difficulty holding anything else in solution. That said, I really don't suspect that as your problem.

Just to make sure we're on track here, could you give me some feedback on the following questions?

1. Are you regularly using defoamer in the spa and, if so, how often do you add it? Just as you need it or as a regular part of your maintenance regimen?

2. Do you recall this being a problem when your spa water was newly added?

3. What are you using to shock the spa? What I'm interested in here is the chemical, not the brand name ie. monopersulfate (non-chlorine shock), calcium hypochlorite, etc. And approximately how much shock are you adding?

4. How many gallons of water in your spa?

Kapp, I'm strongly leaning toward the super shock that Hillbilly Hot Tub suggested, but I will feel much more certain about my conclusions after getting your answers to these questions.

And a quick note to HillbillyHT. Although I've been in the business longer than many of these techs have been alive, and have helped out on many online pool/spa forums, I'm new on this particular forum and the folks that frequent here. I was just reading some of your other posts in some of the other threads, and it warms my heart to know that I'm not the only detail driven, chemically fluent overzealous geek out there. There is someone else like me! KUDOS! Yes, it makes for wordy answers, but if you teach folks all you can and they only remember half, it's still more than they knew when you got started. My hat is off to you!

John

1) no not using foam reducers much at all and still getting very little if any foam on top of the water, I think I have used a few capfuls twice during the last 3 months and not at all in the last month. I have tried the clarifier several times (Leisure Time "bright and clear" 2 oz each time) hoping that would combine all those tiny bubbles to be caught in filter.

2)No it was not a problem in the beginning, the water was crystal clear with or without jets on

3)I am using Leiseure Time "Renew" "non cholorie shock oxidizer" bottle says 32% Potassium Peroxymonosulfate and 68% "other ingredients (whatever that means) Approx 1 time a week 4 tablespoons of powder (says 2 oz) (mixed in the current tub water a container prior to dumping in tub) 4)

Our tub is 345 Gallons.

Just did another test strip test and all levels very good maybe a tiny bit on the low end of "ideal" for al and ph but again "0" bromine showing on strip and looking at the floater with bromine tabs in it, they are definately dissolving in the water. I used two new tabs and the leftover small pieces from the week(s) before so bromine IS dissolving in the water. Still have the "Milky water" the second I turn on the jets. I did think of one other variable I should mention that i just thought of. I did try one capful of "spa fragrance" about a month ago. I am looking at the bottle I used and it only used a very small amount (1oz) once to try it out. Haven't used it since but thinking it was such a small amount once it couldn't be a factor in the equation but maybe. Thanks Kapp

OK, Kapp. I've just called in a friend and expert from these forums (chem geek aka Richard) to give this a review and his feedback as well, and he may be posting here after this post, so you may want to wait just a bit on this until we put our heads together. But here is my take, subject to his observations.

Hillbilly Hot Tub mentioned TDS earlier, which is a possibility, but he also suggested high organics in the water which is more the direction I'm leaning towards. Because of the fact that you are having issues keeping bromine in the water, this is the way we need to go first.

I want you to give the spa a good shot of CHLORINE. This is going to be in liquid form aka bleach. That way it will get in faster, do it's job, go away, and you are contributing a little less to any Total Dissolved Solids that you may already have in the water. I want you to use straight, basic chlorine bleach - don't use any type of non-chlorine bleach, all color bleach, bleach with whiteners and brighteners, lemon fresh bleach, or any of the many other distortions out there. It can be a brand name, like Clorox, or it can be generic from Sam's Club, but the ingredient needs to show Sodium Hypochlorite.

I am going to ask Chem Geek to comment on the dosage though, for your size spa, I'm thinking around 1/4 cup to start, added while the spa is running. If I'm right, the water may actually look a little worse immediately after you add the chlorine and while it's doing it's job but it should clear in short order.

If this does not work then the next step is to look a high TDS issue, which would mean changing the water in your spa.

You also need to make certain that you bank the water with bomine salts when you first start out with fresh water in the spa. Again, I would like Chem Geek to expound on that a little further.

John

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I really don't know what's going on here. If it were more consistently cloudy (not just when jets are turned on), then the low bromine levels could indicate a buildup or organics that need to be more fully oxidized to dissolve, but since this problem seems only to occur when the jets are on, it seems to be more related to what HHH was saying in terms of tiny bubbles not getting broken up quickly enough or perhaps air interacting with some chemical in the water. Also, if your ozonator is working, you shouldn't be seeing a buildup of organics. Given your consistently low bromine levels, either your bromine feeder isn't feeding enough or your ozonator isn't working and you're not using enough oxidizer (MPS, in your case).

If your ozonator wasn't working, then 4 tablespoons (2 fluid ounces) of MPS powder per week is not nearly enough, especially since yours at 32% is weaker than the more normal full-strength 43% (the other ingredients are part of the triple salt that makes up MPS product). One person soaking every day for 30 minutes or 2 people soaking every day for 15 minutes in hot (100-104F) spa water would need about 9 tablespoons of 43% MPS shock per week (12 tablespoons of 32% MPS) to oxidize bather sweat/urine. Throw a baby in the mix that could be urinating and you'd need a lot more than that.

I think the advice given is the way to go -- either super-shock as HHH described using chlorine or change the water and start over. If the water is more than 3 months old, I'd just change it. If you super-shock, since I assume you've never used Dichlor and only used non-chlorine shock (MPS), I'd be careful not to shock with too much unscented bleach at a time. Your safest bet would be to use around 5 teaspoons of Dichlor plus 8 fluid ounces of 6% unscented bleach (add the Dichlor first), though if it were my tub I'd probably change the water since it's about that time to do that anyway. If the problem then goes away, then you got rid of whatever was causing it with a water change. If the problem persists, then there's something about your jets causing bubbles to perhaps be so small that they appear cloudy (seems strange to me, however).

If you super-shock, you will likely need to do it more than once (use 15 fluid ounces of 6% unscented bleach and not Dichlor after the first time) since you've gotten way behind -- again, assuming the ozonator isn't working which seems likely given the consistently low bromine readings.

Richard

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Thank you, Richard.

Well, that backs up where I was as well. You can try the shock, or just pull the drain plug and start from fresh.

John

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I vote for the drain plug.

I remember before my last fill, I had pretty bad sluggish water (bubbles taking awhile to disapate). Although it wasn't exactly milky, I'd still say you have high TDS. Afer 3 months on this fill, it's not worth wasting too much time, or chemicals on. Just change the water.

OTHO, it won't hurt anything to give it a good Chorine shock, and then at least you'll know if it's sluggish water, or something else.

Keep us updated.

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I vote for the drain plug.

I remember before my last fill, I had pretty bad sluggish water (bubbles taking awhile to disapate). Although it wasn't exactly milky, I'd still say you have high TDS. Afer 3 months on this fill, it's not worth wasting too much time, or chemicals on. Just change the water.

OTHO, it won't hurt anything to give it a good Chorine shock, and then at least you'll know if it's sluggish water, or something else.

Keep us updated.

Maybe I missed something. Simple question:

How old is the water?

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Thank you, Richard.

Well, that backs up where I was as well. You can try the shock, or just pull the drain plug and start from fresh.

John

Thanks everyone...I will certainly drain and refill within the week, however, I would like to try your idea with the bleach and trouble shoot to see what may be causing this in case it happens with the next round or water. How do you tell if your ozonator is working or not? I did the weekly shock of 4-5 tablespoons yesterday and then checked the test strips a few hours later and of course the Bromine showed up off the charts purple as expected. Now 24 hours later, I checked it again and it is down right in the Perfect zone. I suspect if I check it tomorrow at the same time (as usual) it will show little or no bromine on the strip. So...reading the last two "super shock" suggestions. I want to be sure I put the right kind of bleach and amount for my tub. (by the way there is no baby using it, don't know how that got in the mix, I have an 8 yr old son that comes in once a month maybe) mainly 1 user 4-5 times a week 30 mins or a second mixed it there once a week maybe)...anyway by trying this before changing the water, maybe it will help eliminate a possiblity/problem if this happens again with the next water change.

I suppose I should ask this (since this will be our first change as new tub owners) should we stay with the bromine tabs and chems I have been using or start over with bromine/or cholorine powder and "spa perfect" which my neighbor swears by or....? To complicate things we are Americans living in Belgium near a US base and the Belgians only use chlorine powder over here. I shipped all the chemilcals inside the tub this past fall is how I got them here. I can get most online but don't think bromine or chlorine can be shipped or purchased online so may have to go with the "Belgian way" of chlorine powder (once a week they say)...anyway, back to the bleach shock treatment. Regular bleach about how much? and then look for what? (normal bromine levels, water clearing up with jets) thanks again so much for all your input. You all are my lifeline here living in a foreign country and it is next to impossible to ask these questions in french or get any answers at all from the dealers/distributors. Kapp

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Thank you, Richard.

Well, that backs up where I was as well. You can try the shock, or just pull the drain plug and start from fresh.

John

Thanks everyone...I will certainly drain and refill within the week, however, I would like to try your idea with the bleach and trouble shoot to see what may be causing this in case it happens with the next round or water. How do you tell if your ozonator is working or not? I did the weekly shock of 4-5 tablespoons yesterday and then checked the test strips a few hours later and of course the Bromine showed up off the charts purple as expected. Now 24 hours later, I checked it again and it is down right in the Perfect zone. I suspect if I check it tomorrow at the same time (as usual) it will show little or no bromine on the strip. So...reading the last two "super shock" suggestions. I want to be sure I put the right kind of bleach and amount for my tub. (by the way there is no baby using it, don't know how that got in the mix, I have an 8 yr old son that comes in once a month maybe) mainly 1 user 4-5 times a week 30 mins or a second mixed it there once a week maybe)...anyway by trying this before changing the water, maybe it will help eliminate a possiblity/problem if this happens again with the next water change.

I suppose I should ask this (since this will be our first change as new tub owners) should we stay with the bromine tabs and chems I have been using or start over with bromine/or cholorine powder and "spa perfect" which my neighbor swears by or....? To complicate things we are Americans living in Belgium near a US base and the Belgians only use chlorine powder over here. I shipped all the chemilcals inside the tub this past fall is how I got them here. I can get most online but don't think bromine or chlorine can be shipped or purchased online so may have to go with the "Belgian way" of chlorine powder (once a week they say)...anyway, back to the bleach shock treatment. Regular bleach about how much? and then look for what? (normal bromine levels, water clearing up with jets) thanks again so much for all your input. You all are my lifeline here living in a foreign country and it is next to impossible to ask these questions in french or get any answers at all from the dealers/distributors. Kapp

Well, Kapp, not looking for pity here, but just to explain. I'm in the middle of a divorce, and I just had to move out of the house today. For a few days at least, my internet access is going to be limited and sporadic at best. I don't know what your cell service is like where you are, but if you can text message, my cell number is listed on my profile on this website and you are welcome to shoot me a message directly. If nothing else. I would like to hear how things turned out for you after the effort you and I have put into this.

Now. as to what to do. Your feeling is right in line with mine. It can't hurt to give it a shot of chlorine shock now before you dump the spa, just to see what kind of reaction you get. It may go far in explaining what is going on, for reference in the future.

As to the dose, I would probably start out with 1/4 to 1/3 of a cup (being handicapped as an American, I can't quickly convert that into metric, but I trust you can handle that ;-) ) How the water reacts should give us some idea about what has been going on and, even if it doesn't, it's a cheap way to try to find out, and with no negative side effects.

And as to what you should use from here, my personal preference is Nature 2 or something along those lines (plenty of info online, but I would be willing to fill you in some on a future post when I have a little more time). The only issue I can see is whether or not it is available over there. That shouldn't be a problem to ship (I can always do that for you if you need). But you know what they say about "When in Rome...(or in this case, Belgium!). If the system that they are primarily using over there is working, is readily available, and the retailers are familier with it and can educate you some as to the process they use, then I would strongly consider going with the "Home town default", if that makes sense to you.

My personal email address is also on my profile, and emails come right through to my cell phone so, if you would like, you can message me that way. Whatever we discuss, I will try to post up here when I can, so others can see what the resolve was.

Hoping for all the best for you. It has been my pleasure to help out however I could. Let me know how it goes, if you don't mind!

John

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Thank you, Richard.

Well, that backs up where I was as well. You can try the shock, or just pull the drain plug and start from fresh.

John

Thanks everyone...I will certainly drain and refill within the week, however, I would like to try your idea with the bleach and trouble shoot to see what may be causing this in case it happens with the next round or water. How do you tell if your ozonator is working or not? I did the weekly shock of 4-5 tablespoons yesterday and then checked the test strips a few hours later and of course the Bromine showed up off the charts purple as expected. Now 24 hours later, I checked it again and it is down right in the Perfect zone. I suspect if I check it tomorrow at the same time (as usual) it will show little or no bromine on the strip. So...reading the last two "super shock" suggestions. I want to be sure I put the right kind of bleach and amount for my tub. (by the way there is no baby using it, don't know how that got in the mix, I have an 8 yr old son that comes in once a month maybe) mainly 1 user 4-5 times a week 30 mins or a second mixed it there once a week maybe)...anyway by trying this before changing the water, maybe it will help eliminate a possiblity/problem if this happens again with the next water change.

I suppose I should ask this (since this will be our first change as new tub owners) should we stay with the bromine tabs and chems I have been using or start over with bromine/or cholorine powder and "spa perfect" which my neighbor swears by or....? To complicate things we are Americans living in Belgium near a US base and the Belgians only use chlorine powder over here. I shipped all the chemilcals inside the tub this past fall is how I got them here. I can get most online but don't think bromine or chlorine can be shipped or purchased online so may have to go with the "Belgian way" of chlorine powder (once a week they say)...anyway, back to the bleach shock treatment. Regular bleach about how much? and then look for what? (normal bromine levels, water clearing up with jets) thanks again so much for all your input. You all are my lifeline here living in a foreign country and it is next to impossible to ask these questions in french or get any answers at all from the dealers/distributors. Kapp

Well, Kapp, not looking for pity here, but just to explain. I'm in the middle of a divorce, and I just had to move out of the house today. For a few days at least, my internet access is going to be limited and sporadic at best. I don't know what your cell service is like where you are, but if you can text message, my cell number is listed on my profile on this website and you are welcome to shoot me a message directly. If nothing else. I would like to hear how things turned out for you after the effort you and I have put into this.

Now. as to what to do. Your feeling is right in line with mine. It can't hurt to give it a shot of chlorine shock now before you dump the spa, just to see what kind of reaction you get. It may go far in explaining what is going on, for reference in the future.

As to the dose, I would probably start out with 1/4 to 1/3 of a cup (being handicapped as an American, I can't quickly convert that into metric, but I trust you can handle that ;-) ) How the water reacts should give us some idea about what has been going on and, even if it doesn't, it's a cheap way to try to find out, and with no negative side effects.

And as to what you should use from here, my personal preference is Nature 2 or something along those lines (plenty of info online, but I would be willing to fill you in some on a future post when I have a little more time). The only issue I can see is whether or not it is available over there. That shouldn't be a problem to ship (I can always do that for you if you need). But you know what they say about "When in Rome...(or in this case, Belgium!). If the system that they are primarily using over there is working, is readily available, and the retailers are familier with it and can educate you some as to the process they use, then I would strongly consider going with the "Home town default", if that makes sense to you.

My personal email address is also on my profile, and emails come right through to my cell phone so, if you would like, you can message me that way. Whatever we discuss, I will try to post up here when I can, so others can see what the resolve was.

Hoping for all the best for you. It has been my pleasure to help out however I could. Let me know how it goes, if you don't mind!

John

OK...heading outside to hit it with the bleach. Will wait a few hours test the water and hit the jets and see what we see...

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Thank you, Richard.

Well, that backs up where I was as well. You can try the shock, or just pull the drain plug and start from fresh.

John

Thanks everyone...I will certainly drain and refill within the week, however, I would like to try your idea with the bleach and trouble shoot to see what may be causing this in case it happens with the next round or water. How do you tell if your ozonator is working or not? I did the weekly shock of 4-5 tablespoons yesterday and then checked the test strips a few hours later and of course the Bromine showed up off the charts purple as expected. Now 24 hours later, I checked it again and it is down right in the Perfect zone. I suspect if I check it tomorrow at the same time (as usual) it will show little or no bromine on the strip. So...reading the last two "super shock" suggestions. I want to be sure I put the right kind of bleach and amount for my tub. (by the way there is no baby using it, don't know how that got in the mix, I have an 8 yr old son that comes in once a month maybe) mainly 1 user 4-5 times a week 30 mins or a second mixed it there once a week maybe)...anyway by trying this before changing the water, maybe it will help eliminate a possiblity/problem if this happens again with the next water change.

I suppose I should ask this (since this will be our first change as new tub owners) should we stay with the bromine tabs and chems I have been using or start over with bromine/or cholorine powder and "spa perfect" which my neighbor swears by or....? To complicate things we are Americans living in Belgium near a US base and the Belgians only use chlorine powder over here. I shipped all the chemilcals inside the tub this past fall is how I got them here. I can get most online but don't think bromine or chlorine can be shipped or purchased online so may have to go with the "Belgian way" of chlorine powder (once a week they say)...anyway, back to the bleach shock treatment. Regular bleach about how much? and then look for what? (normal bromine levels, water clearing up with jets) thanks again so much for all your input. You all are my lifeline here living in a foreign country and it is next to impossible to ask these questions in french or get any answers at all from the dealers/distributors. Kapp

Well, Kapp, not looking for pity here, but just to explain. I'm in the middle of a divorce, and I just had to move out of the house today. For a few days at least, my internet access is going to be limited and sporadic at best. I don't know what your cell service is like where you are, but if you can text message, my cell number is listed on my profile on this website and you are welcome to shoot me a message directly. If nothing else. I would like to hear how things turned out for you after the effort you and I have put into this.

Now. as to what to do. Your feeling is right in line with mine. It can't hurt to give it a shot of chlorine shock now before you dump the spa, just to see what kind of reaction you get. It may go far in explaining what is going on, for reference in the future.

As to the dose, I would probably start out with 1/4 to 1/3 of a cup (being handicapped as an American, I can't quickly convert that into metric, but I trust you can handle that ;-) ) How the water reacts should give us some idea about what has been going on and, even if it doesn't, it's a cheap way to try to find out, and with no negative side effects.

And as to what you should use from here, my personal preference is Nature 2 or something along those lines (plenty of info online, but I would be willing to fill you in some on a future post when I have a little more time). The only issue I can see is whether or not it is available over there. That shouldn't be a problem to ship (I can always do that for you if you need). But you know what they say about "When in Rome...(or in this case, Belgium!). If the system that they are primarily using over there is working, is readily available, and the retailers are familier with it and can educate you some as to the process they use, then I would strongly consider going with the "Home town default", if that makes sense to you.

My personal email address is also on my profile, and emails come right through to my cell phone so, if you would like, you can message me that way. Whatever we discuss, I will try to post up here when I can, so others can see what the resolve was.

Hoping for all the best for you. It has been my pleasure to help out however I could. Let me know how it goes, if you don't mind!

John

OK...heading outside to hit it with the bleach. Will wait a few hours test the water and hit the jets and see what we see...

After dousing with 1/3 cup of bleach...14 hours later the bromine level shows "perfect" in the middle of test strip. Milky water still there as bad as ever. Of course quite a bit of foam now on the surface with the addition of the bleach. I suspect if I check the bromine level again this afternoon or tomorrow it will show "0" again (like it always does a day after the shock)...going for the drain and refill. Hopefully whatever caused it this time won't happen again. Any other ideas before I pull the plug? thanks Kapp

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After dousing with 1/3 cup of bleach...14 hours later the bromine level shows "perfect" in the middle of test strip. Milky water still there as bad as ever. Of course quite a bit of foam now on the surface with the addition of the bleach. I suspect if I check the bromine level again this afternoon or tomorrow it will show "0" again (like it always does a day after the shock)...going for the drain and refill. Hopefully whatever caused it this time won't happen again. Any other ideas before I pull the plug? thanks Kapp

It sounds like your Bromine Demand is 100%. That's not a good situation. That means either you have not been keeping up with the sanitation, or possibly you have something actively growing in your tub. I would just drain it and start over. I would also recommend starting with Chlorine instead of Bromine. If you find you don't like using Chlorine, you can always switch back to Bromine. However, if you start with Bromine you can't switch to Chlorine, without changing your water.

Lastly, read THIS post about Chlorine Demand (CD). After you refill your tub, I HIGHLY recommend you measure your CD first, BEFORE using it. It will tell you if you still have a problem with your tub. Also, if you haven't already done so, read THIS post about using Chlorine to sanitize your tub. It should tell you everything you need to know to maintain your water without issues.

Keep us updated.

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After dousing with 1/3 cup of bleach...14 hours later the bromine level shows "perfect" in the middle of test strip. Milky water still there as bad as ever. Of course quite a bit of foam now on the surface with the addition of the bleach. I suspect if I check the bromine level again this afternoon or tomorrow it will show "0" again (like it always does a day after the shock)...going for the drain and refill. Hopefully whatever caused it this time won't happen again. Any other ideas before I pull the plug? thanks Kapp

It sounds like your Bromine Demand is 100%. That's not a good situation. That means either you have not been keeping up with the sanitation, or possibly you have something actively growing in your tub. I would just drain it and start over. I would also recommend starting with Chlorine instead of Bromine. If you find you don't like using Chlorine, you can always switch back to Bromine. However, if you start with Bromine you can't switch to Chlorine, without changing your water.

Lastly, read THIS post about Chlorine Demand (CD). After you refill your tub, I HIGHLY recommend you measure your CD first, BEFORE using it. It will tell you if you still have a problem with your tub. Also, if you haven't already done so, read THIS post about using Chlorine to sanitize your tub. It should tell you everything you need to know to maintain your water without issues.

Keep us updated.

Interested after all the readings you suggested that dichlor/bleach method...I am a newby is Dichlor just chlorine powder and/or granules? Use it once at beginning of new fill then just bleach?

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Interested after all the readings you suggested that dichlor/bleach method...I am a newby is Dichlor just chlorine powder and/or granules? Use it once at beginning of new fill then just bleach?

Dichlor is Chlorine Granules. It is Chlorine with a stabilizer (CYA). CYA is like a Chlorine buffer. It is needed in your tub before you start using bleach. Otherwise the bleach would be too strong. The recomendation is to use Dichlor for about the first week to build up the CYA to 20-30 ppm. Then switch to regular Clorox unscented bleach until your next refill.

For every 10 ppm FC you add with Dichlor, you're adding 9 ppm CYA. So that means you need to add around 25 ppm FC before you switch to bleach. In a 350 gal tub that's ~2 oz. So after you add a total of 2 oz of Dichlor to your tub, switch to using bleach.

Does that make sense?

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Kapp,

If you use the Dichlor-then-bleach method, please refer to the Nitro's link describing that method and be sure to lower your Total Alkalinity (TA) and watch your pH carefully after you start using bleach. You don't want the pH to rise too much as that can cause scaling. Lowering the TA level reduces the rate of pH rise and you can also use 50 ppm Borates to help with that as well. Dichlor usage is acidic over time so controls the pH; when you use bleach, the aeration in the tub will tend to make the pH rise unless you keep the TA lower.

Richard

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Interested after all the readings you suggested that dichlor/bleach method...I am a newby is Dichlor just chlorine powder and/or granules? Use it once at beginning of new fill then just bleach?

Dichlor is Chlorine Granules. It is Chlorine with a stabilizer (CYA). CYA is like a Chlorine buffer. It is needed in your tub before you start using bleach. Otherwise the bleach would be too strong. The recomendation is to use Dichlor for about the first week to build up the CYA to 20-30 ppm. Then switch to regular Clorox unscented bleach until your next refill.

For every 10 ppm FC you add with Dichlor, you're adding 9 ppm CYA. So that means you need to add around 25 ppm FC before you switch to bleach. In a 350 gal tub that's ~2 oz. So after you add a total of 2 oz of Dichlor to your tub, switch to using bleach.

Does that make sense?

Perfect...thanks for all your patience and help. Since I am so new at this I want to be sure about the other stuff. I am going to now order the test strips that show chlorine as one of the 4 things tested (not bromine) it also has ph, alk, and calcium hardness. After I do the initial dichlor for the first week, then do the switching to the bleach, I will continue to do the test strips and SPA up or down as needed with the chemicals I have been using right? (Liesure Time SPA and SPA Down). With this method of sanitation, do I still need to "shock" it once a week with the "Liesure time Renew" or it will prob not need it now that the shock actually comes from the bleach. I also read in oneof the threads that a 1/2 capful of the bleach after each use is a good idea...true? The bleach then will be added to keep the chlorine reading on the strips in the safe area correct? I hope I got this. Sorry for dragging this out but being so new at it, I am finding I am spending so much more time worrying about the chemicals and problems and not enjoying the tub. Thanks again. KAPP

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Perfect...thanks for all your patience and help. Since I am so new at this I want to be sure about the other stuff. I am going to now order the test strips that show chlorine as one of the 4 things tested (not bromine) it also has ph, alk, and calcium hardness. After I do the initial dichlor for the first week, then do the switching to the bleach, I will continue to do the test strips and SPA up or down as needed with the chemicals I have been using right? (Liesure Time SPA and SPA Down). With this method of sanitation, do I still need to "shock" it once a week with the "Liesure time Renew" or it will prob not need it now that the shock actually comes from the bleach. I also read in oneof the threads that a 1/2 capful of the bleach after each use is a good idea...true? The bleach then will be added to keep the chlorine reading on the strips in the safe area correct? I hope I got this. Sorry for dragging this out but being so new at it, I am finding I am spending so much more time worrying about the chemicals and problems and not enjoying the tub. Thanks again. KAPP

Kapp,

Test strips are not very accurate for some measurements -- for TA, they are usually only within 40 ppm. They also only test for Total Hardness (which includes magnesium) and not Calcium Hardness and the latter is what matters for scaling. A far better test kit is the Taylor K-2006 you can get at a good online price here or the TF100 test kit from tftestkits.com here with the latter kit having 36% more volume of reagents so is somewhat less expensive "per test". Even if you cannot get these tests, see if you can at least get the equivalent of the Taylor K-2005 -- that is, a liquid (not test strip) test which tests for pH, Free Chlorine (FC), Combined Chlorine (CC), Total Alkalinity (TA), Calcium Hardness (CH) and Cyanuric Acid (CYA). The TA and CH tests have a resolution and accuracy of +/- 10 ppm. If you get either of the first two test kits (the K-2006 or the TF100), then these test FC and CC with a resolution and accuracy of +/- 0.2 ppm (for a 25 ml sample; +/- 0.5 ppm for a 10 ml sample).

Once you get into a routine, things become very simple and easy.

Richard

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Perfect...thanks for all your patience and help. Since I am so new at this I want to be sure about the other stuff. I am going to now order the test strips that show chlorine as one of the 4 things tested (not bromine) it also has ph, alk, and calcium hardness. After I do the initial dichlor for the first week, then do the switching to the bleach, I will continue to do the test strips and SPA up or down as needed with the chemicals I have been using right? (Liesure Time SPA and SPA Down). With this method of sanitation, do I still need to "shock" it once a week with the "Liesure time Renew" or it will prob not need it now that the shock actually comes from the bleach. I also read in oneof the threads that a 1/2 capful of the bleach after each use is a good idea...true? The bleach then will be added to keep the chlorine reading on the strips in the safe area correct? I hope I got this. Sorry for dragging this out but being so new at it, I am finding I am spending so much more time worrying about the chemicals and problems and not enjoying the tub. Thanks again. KAPP

After you switch to bleach there's no reason to shock with Liesure Time. Just use bleach.

You need to add bleach after every use. You need to add enough bleach so FC NEVER drops below 1 ppm. That means you should check your FC every time before you use the tub. If it's ever below 1 ppm, that means you didn't add enough the time before. The the rule of thumb is, you'll use approximately 7 ppm FC per person per hour. If you have a hot tub party, you may need to add bleach during the soak to keep up.

You should check FC everyday until you get the hang of it, at least for the first month. Keep FC between 3-6ppm normally, min of 1ppm and you can shock once a week to 12ppm if needed. As Chem Geek says, once you get the hang of this, it becomes real easy. Best of all, you won't have any water problems you can't handle.

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Perfect...thanks for all your patience and help. Since I am so new at this I want to be sure about the other stuff. I am going to now order the test strips that show chlorine as one of the 4 things tested (not bromine) it also has ph, alk, and calcium hardness. After I do the initial dichlor for the first week, then do the switching to the bleach, I will continue to do the test strips and SPA up or down as needed with the chemicals I have been using right? (Liesure Time SPA and SPA Down). With this method of sanitation, do I still need to "shock" it once a week with the "Liesure time Renew" or it will prob not need it now that the shock actually comes from the bleach. I also read in oneof the threads that a 1/2 capful of the bleach after each use is a good idea...true? The bleach then will be added to keep the chlorine reading on the strips in the safe area correct? I hope I got this. Sorry for dragging this out but being so new at it, I am finding I am spending so much more time worrying about the chemicals and problems and not enjoying the tub. Thanks again. KAPP

After you switch to bleach there's no reason to shock with Liesure Time. Just use bleach.

You need to add bleach after every use. You need to add enough bleach so FC NEVER drops below 1 ppm. That means you should check your FC every time before you use the tub. If it's ever below 1 ppm, that means you didn't add enough the time before. The the rule of thumb is, you'll use approximately 7 ppm FC per person per hour. If you have a hot tub party, you may need to add bleach during the soak to keep up.

You should check FC everyday until you get the hang of it, at least for the first month. Keep FC between 3-6ppm normally, min of 1ppm and you can shock once a week to 12ppm if needed. As Chem Geek says, once you get the hang of this, it becomes real easy. Best of all, you won't have any water problems you can't handle.

Shocking is a process to eliminate combined chlorine. Combined chlorine is the difference between total chlorine and free chlorine. Shocking is achieved by either superchlorinating or by using non chlorine shock such as LT Renew. IMO, if you prefer to shock as a weekly maintenance, non chlorine shock is the better alternative. If you shock only when needed and not on a weekly basis, chlorine is the better choice. I have done it both ways over the years and now prefer to shock weekly with non chlorine shock. There are advantages and disadvantages to each way but both do the job.

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