Help, Purchasing A New Spa!

[mrpete]

Hello everyone!

I have a couple of questions and I hope some of you may be able to help or provide information. First off, bought an Infinity spa (I know!) from Costco 8 months ago. I have learned my lesson going that route! Zero insulation, and no circulation pump equaled very high operating costs, in the neighborhood of $175-200 per month EXTRA on our electric bill. However this was probably 104 degrees constant...........

Plus numerous other quality issues......the freight truck will be here next week from Costco returns, no questions asked! Thank you Costco, for that, but why sell such JUNK in the first place? Seems odd...

I have now looked at Hot Springs, Dimension One, Caldera, Jacuzzi, Sundance, Marquis soon.. etc. These are pretty much all of the local brands stocked in my area. And I will definitely buy one from a store, not over the internet. A few things I have learned, and this is where I could use some help or maybe provide information..

As far as efficiency goes, full foam insulation is best and this is what I need.

Dedicated circulation pumps use less power, therefore saving money, than using a jet pump on low speed setting for the same purpose. Help....Marquis does not have circ. pumps on there spas. Marquis seems very good quality, and efficient except for this. And I also noticed they ozone by light bulb instead of by CD. It seems CD is the way to go too in that respect. Does Marquis do something different whereas they are efficient and don't need a circ pump?

I am really trying to lower my monthly operationg costs!

Hot Springs are just barely over my budget which is about 9k that would have to be the "out the door" price including tax etc...

Jacuzzi is right there.....I like the ABS bottom shell because I've got four kids and my spa gets soaked everywhere inside and out!

You should see the only 8month old Infinity wood bottom thats painted black.....it looks much older! I would think the plastic shell of the jacuzzi would be a tremendous benefit in my circumstance, for longevitiy!

Is jacuzzi top quality? I have yet to wet test....

There lounges seem short to me....but my wife likes them fine and the lounge is where she spends most of the time anyways...

Caldera seems good too..... there was a model in the Utopia line with a lounge that was Huge and deep and I think my wife would be mostly underwater as would my kids in the other seats.... the salesman said Caldera was mostly a Hot Springs, all from Wilkins or Watts or something?

Sundance is from Jacuzzi? basically the same on the engineering? Is one better quality between the two?

We're at the point of wet testing and making a decision, but I want this time to be right! Do any of the companies I mentioned do something either with quality or efficiency that is drastically different than another, that could either cost me more money in operationg cost, or cause the spa to not last as long as it should?

Thanks for any input!

Pete

[Markee]

All of the spas you listed will filter adequately and I would not be concerned with whether the spa has a circ pump or not. Marquis used to use circ pumps up until 7 or 8 years ago. I don't want to get in to the filtration debate, but the Marquis filtration system filters much more water than most circ pump systems. The Marquis system filters at least 19,000 gallons of water a day, whereas most circ pumps only filter about 5,000 gallons (for instance HotSpring). If you're worried about energy costs, all of the Marquis models are extremely energy efficient.

I would also not be concerned with types of ozonators. The Marquis ozonator is not a traditional UV bulb, it is a solid-state plasma cell UV that does not require maintenance or degrade in strength over time.

If you are looking for a pan bottom, I believe the only 3 in your list that have them are Sundance, Jacuzzi and Marquis.

All of the brands you're looking at are decent spas, I would narrow it down to 3 or 4 and then wet test if you can.

[ps558]

All of the spas you listed will filter adequately and I would not be concerned with whether the spa has a circ pump or not. Marquis used to use circ pumps up until 7 or 8 years ago. I don't want to get in to the filtration debate, but the Marquis filtration system filters much more water than most circ pump systems. The Marquis system filters at least 19,000 gallons of water a day, whereas most circ pumps only filter about 5,000 gallons (for instance HotSpring). If you're worried about energy costs, all of the Marquis models are extremely energy efficient.

I would also not be concerned with types of ozonators. The Marquis ozonator is not a traditional UV bulb, it is a solid-state plasma cell UV that does not require maintenance or degrade in strength over time.

If you are looking for a pan bottom, I believe the only 3 in your list that have them are Sundance, Jacuzzi and Marquis.

All of the brands you're looking at are decent spas, I would narrow it down to 3 or 4 and then wet test if you can.

I agree with Markee these are all good products. Caldera and Hot Springs are made by Watkins and Jacuzzi and Sundance are also made at the same place. One thing with Caldera is they are still using 48 frame pump motors which cost a little more to run than a 56 frame motor, not much bit energy cost is what you are looking to control. Wet test them and see what one you like best.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Filtering with a circ pump is a little less expensive but shouldn't be major (as far as 56 frame motors being less expensive to run than 48 frame, that's news to me but is also probably no big deal).

Probably the biggest advantage to a circ pump is the fact that the ozone can run 24/7 as opposed to just during the filter time of a 2-speed pump (usually 4 to 6 hrs per day). That would mean more to me than the other things mentioned as I'm a big ozone fan.

Circ pumps will be quieter as well but unless the spa is directly next to a bedroom that's probably no big deal (and you had a spa that filtered with a 2-speed pump so you know if that was an issue for you).

Having said all that, you can take all these things being discussed into consideration when deciding what you want but I wouldn't put them at the top of the list. As 558 said, wet test them and see what one you like best.

[Roger]

I agree with Markee these are all good products. Caldera and Hot Springs are made by Watkins and Jacuzzi and Sundance are also made at the same place. One thing with Caldera is they are still using 48 frame pump motors which cost a little more to run than a 56 frame motor, not much bit energy cost is what you are looking to control. Wet test them and see what one you like best.

I have never heard this either and would question it's validity. The 56 frame bigger motor was put in place because more HP and a bigger pump could be achieved versus a 48 frame. Now yes there is overlap 3 HP 48 frame and 3 HP 56 frame. But I have never seen a 48 frame 5 HP?? And with more windings and a bigger rotor one has to assume it takes not only more start up power but more power to maintain operation of a 56 frame versus a 48 frame. Now if you want to talk longevity, i'll make another assumption and say a 56 frame 3 HP motor will outlast a 3 HP 48 frame. But I am no motor expert. Seems logical though.

[General Beluga]

Hello everyone!

I have a couple of questions and I hope some of you may be able to help or provide information. First off, bought an Infinity spa (I know!) from Costco 8 months ago. I have learned my lesson going that route! Zero insulation, and no circulation pump equaled very high operating costs, in the neighborhood of $175-200 per month EXTRA on our electric bill. However this was probably 104 degrees constant...........

Plus numerous other quality issues......the freight truck will be here next week from Costco returns, no questions asked! Thank you Costco, for that, but why sell such JUNK in the first place? Seems odd...

I have now looked at Hot Springs, Dimension One, Caldera, Jacuzzi, Sundance, Marquis soon.. etc. These are pretty much all of the local brands stocked in my area. And I will definitely buy one from a store, not over the internet. A few things I have learned, and this is where I could use some help or maybe provide information..

As far as efficiency goes, full foam insulation is best and this is what I need.

Dedicated circulation pumps use less power, therefore saving money, than using a jet pump on low speed setting for the same purpose. Help....Marquis does not have circ. pumps on there spas. Marquis seems very good quality, and efficient except for this. And I also noticed they ozone by light bulb instead of by CD. It seems CD is the way to go too in that respect. Does Marquis do something different whereas they are efficient and don't need a circ pump?

I am really trying to lower my monthly operationg costs!

Hot Springs are just barely over my budget which is about 9k that would have to be the "out the door" price including tax etc...

Jacuzzi is right there.....I like the ABS bottom shell because I've got four kids and my spa gets soaked everywhere inside and out!

You should see the only 8month old Infinity wood bottom thats painted black.....it looks much older! I would think the plastic shell of the jacuzzi would be a tremendous benefit in my circumstance, for longevitiy!

Is jacuzzi top quality? I have yet to wet test....

There lounges seem short to me....but my wife likes them fine and the lounge is where she spends most of the time anyways...

Caldera seems good too..... there was a model in the Utopia line with a lounge that was Huge and deep and I think my wife would be mostly underwater as would my kids in the other seats.... the salesman said Caldera was mostly a Hot Springs, all from Wilkins or Watts or something?

Sundance is from Jacuzzi? basically the same on the engineering? Is one better quality between the two?

We're at the point of wet testing and making a decision, but I want this time to be right! Do any of the companies I mentioned do something either with quality or efficiency that is drastically different than another, that could either cost me more money in operationg cost, or cause the spa to not last as long as it should?

Thanks for any input!

Pete

I purchased a '08 Sundance Hawthorne, six person two pump spa with ozonator last August for $6,500 complete including sales tax, delivery/installation, removal of old spa and gazebo as well as a cover, cover lifter, chemical start-up kit and a Nature2 mineral stick. It does not have a re-circulating pump but, uses a two stage pump #1 to filter and heat. I had a Dimension1 spa for 22 years and liked it a lot (I replace the wood siding and equipment skid at 12 yrs.). After 4 months of use, I feel that the Sundance Hawthorne spa is every bit as good as my old D1 spa and about have the current day replacement cost. When considering a spa (two stage pump system vs a re-circ pump), be sure to factor in the additional cost for the spa to have the latter. Most re-circ pump systems are included only on the high end more expensive models of a spa manufacturer. If you have to pay $1,500 or $2,000 more to get it, you will never break even on the electrical savings. I have found that my Sundance costs about $40 to $50/Mo. running 4 hours/day to maintain the spa at 101 degrees in Southern California (My wife and I use it about 2X/week for 30 min.). I can't imagine that a smaller re-circ pump running 24 hrs a day could be that much cheaper on your electric bill. Assuming a re-circ pump would cut your bill by 30%, in my example, it would take you 8 to 11 years to break even! To me, it isn't worth it and is one more thing to go wrong.

John

[ps558]

I agree with Markee these are all good products. Caldera and Hot Springs are made by Watkins and Jacuzzi and Sundance are also made at the same place. One thing with Caldera is they are still using 48 frame pump motors which cost a little more to run than a 56 frame motor, not much bit energy cost is what you are looking to control. Wet test them and see what one you like best.

I have never heard this either and would question it's validity. The 56 frame bigger motor was put in place because more HP and a bigger pump could be achieved versus a 48 frame. Now yes there is overlap 3 HP 48 frame and 3 HP 56 frame. But I have never seen a 48 frame 5 HP?? And with more windings and a bigger rotor one has to assume it takes not only more start up power but more power to maintain operation of a 56 frame versus a 48 frame. Now if you want to talk longevity, i'll make another assumption and say a 56 frame 3 HP motor will outlast a 3 HP 48 frame. But I am no motor expert. Seems logical though.

Its not much of a savings but here it is.

2 hp 48 frame pump at 230 volts 10.5 amp uses 2415 watts of power (volt * Amps)

The electric company charges by KW (kilowatt) we need to figure that out. lets say the pump runs for 4 hours.

2415 times 4 hours equals 9660 watts divide by 1000 equal 9.66 KW now times by your cost of electric. Nat average is .12 cents

9.66 times .12 equals $1.1592 cost for 4 hours.

Same thing with a 56 frame 230 V 8 amps uses 1840 watts times 4 =7360 divide by 1000 = 7.36 KW times .12= .8832 cents for the same 4 hours.

So in the 4 hour time we saved .276 cents

All the info for motors from AO smith motor page. calculation at high speed.

This also dispells the myth that 230 volts is cheaper to operate than 110 volts. It only cheaper to install because of the smaller wire. The electric company charges by watts not amps so the above comes out to same watts

[Jazser]

Hey just thought I would mention if you are interested in HS, and 9k is too high - you could consider a Limelight. I tested HS, Caldera and Limelight and actually preferred the limelight. Also tested Sundance. While limelight doesnt have the same waranty (3 yr vs 5 yr for exmaple on the components/plumbing) - it still has great components and was purchases from a great dealer. It's being delivered today.

FYI I went through a fairly exhaustive search on these and other forums before I settled on the Limelight. I did like the HS sovereign and Sundance Optima.

[mtnguy]

Pete, you didn't really say what your vision of spa use is: relaxation, therapy, etc.

If it's the latter especially, absolutely positively wet test the dang things. All the stats re the hardware sometimes don't translate into an effective therapeutic experience. Re: lounge chairs, traditional ones create floating for lots of users; some units have a modified chair ("adirondack chair" is one label) that allows you to brace without floating. You probably know, but if not, you'll learn some tubs are much deeper. Jacuzzi about 38" on many models, Marquis about 35". (I'm 6'2" but was surprised I felt much more comfy in the shallower depths.)

Personally, I'd also weigh carefully the longevity and history of service from the vendor -- as much as you can research this -- as well. In the current market, some less stable companies won't be there down the road.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Are those calculations for high speed because the pump isn't on for 4 hrs at high speed as the filtering is at low speed? I'll assume you mean low speed. So what you're saying is that in 4 hours use a 56 frame is $0.27 cheaper to run than a 48 frame or about $0.07/hr over that 4 hr filtering span.

Now if a spa has a circ pump then the jet pump doesn’t run 4 hrs/day. It only runs the 20 minutes or so when they use the spa and now you're talking about two pennies difference every time you use it. That is more than offset by the fact that a circ pump uses less energy than a 2-speed pump filtering on low speed.

In conclusion, this is interesting but we’re talking about pennies.

Its not much of a savings but here it is.

2 hp 48 frame pump at 230 volts 10.5 amp uses 2415 watts of power (volt * Amps)

The electric company charges by KW (kilowatt) we need to figure that out. lets say the pump runs for 4 hours.

2415 times 4 hours equals 9660 watts divide by 1000 equal 9.66 KW now times by your cost of electric. Nat average is .12 cents

9.66 times .12 equals $1.1592 cost for 4 hours.

Same thing with a 56 frame 230 V 8 amps uses 1840 watts times 4 =7360 divide by 1000 = 7.36 KW times .12= .8832 cents for the same 4 hours.

So in the 4 hour time we saved .276 cents

All the info for motors from AO smith motor page. calculation at high speed.

This also dispells the myth that 230 volts is cheaper to operate than 110 volts. It only cheaper to install because of the smaller wire. The electric company charges by watts not amps so the above comes out to same watts

[ps558]

Are those calculations for high speed because the pump isn't on for 4 hrs at high speed as the filtering is at low speed? I'll assume you mean low speed. So what you're saying is that in 4 hours use a 56 frame is $0.27 cheaper to run than a 48 frame or about $0.07/hr over that 4 hr filtering span.

Now if a spa has a circ pump then the jet pump doesn’t run 4 hrs/day. It only runs the 20 minutes or so when they use the spa and now you're talking about two pennies difference every time you use it. That is more than offset by the fact that a circ pump uses less energy than a 2-speed pump filtering on low speed.

In conclusion, this is interesting but we’re talking about pennies.

Its not much of a savings but here it is.

2 hp 48 frame pump at 230 volts 10.5 amp uses 2415 watts of power (volt * Amps)

The electric company charges by KW (kilowatt) we need to figure that out. lets say the pump runs for 4 hours.

2415 times 4 hours equals 9660 watts divide by 1000 equal 9.66 KW now times by your cost of electric. Nat average is .12 cents

9.66 times .12 equals $1.1592 cost for 4 hours.

Same thing with a 56 frame 230 V 8 amps uses 1840 watts times 4 =7360 divide by 1000 = 7.36 KW times .12= .8832 cents for the same 4 hours.

So in the 4 hour time we saved .276 cents

All the info for motors from AO smith motor page. calculation at high speed.

This also dispells the myth that 230 volts is cheaper to operate than 110 volts. It only cheaper to install because of the smaller wire. The electric company charges by watts not amps so the above comes out to same watts

No it was for high speed calculations. I said it wasn't much. 56 frame motor should last longer over the life of the spa because of lower energy use = less heat, less heat longer motor life, but of course they all have failures no matter who makes the motor

[spatech (the unreal one)]

No it was for high speed calculations. I said it wasn't much. 56 frame motor should last longer over the life of the spa because of lower energy use = less heat, less heat longer motor life, but of course they all have failures no matter who makes the motor

Then those 4 hrs you used to calculate a $0.027 savings probably just about represents a month.

[mrpete]

Thanks for all the input soo far! Ok, heres some fuzzy math......

As far as circ pumps go, I've seen them range from as little as 50Watts of power, up to 90 Watts of power. Is this Watts per hour? So can I figure that a circ pump that uses 75 Watts of power X 24 hours = 1800 Watts or 1.8 KW a day? My rate is 14cents a KW so thats only 25 cents a day or $7.50 month?

I'm still a little shy of using a jet pump at low speed for heat, and filtration. However if I do go the route of say a Marquis........

Is the jet pump on low running constantly? Most circ pumps are running all the time, I think? If the jet pump on low is not running constantly, do the tubs reach a cooler temp, before before the heater kicks on to keep the desired temp?

Thanks!

Pete

[Roger]

Thanks for all the input soo far! Ok, heres some fuzzy math......

As far as circ pumps go, I've seen them range from as little as 50Watts of power, up to 90 Watts of power. Is this Watts per hour? So can I figure that a circ pump that uses 75 Watts of power X 24 hours = 1800 Watts or 1.8 KW a day? My rate is 14cents a KW so thats only 25 cents a day or $7.50 month?

I'm still a little shy of using a jet pump at low speed for heat, and filtration. However if I do go the route of say a Marquis........

Is the jet pump on low running constantly? Most circ pumps are running all the time, I think? If the jet pump on low is not running constantly, do the tubs reach a cooler temp, before before the heater kicks on to keep the desired temp?

Thanks!

Pete

The jet pump runs on low for your programed filtration cycle or when heat is called for based on your thermostat and temp setting. I have also heard a circ pump (depending on the pump of course) uses about the same energy as a 75 watt bulb per month.

[ps558]

Thanks for all the input soo far! Ok, heres some fuzzy math......

As far as circ pumps go, I've seen them range from as little as 50Watts of power, up to 90 Watts of power. Is this Watts per hour? So can I figure that a circ pump that uses 75 Watts of power X 24 hours = 1800 Watts or 1.8 KW a day? My rate is 14cents a KW so thats only 25 cents a day or $7.50 month?

I'm still a little shy of using a jet pump at low speed for heat, and filtration. However if I do go the route of say a Marquis........

Is the jet pump on low running constantly? Most circ pumps are running all the time, I think? If the jet pump on low is not running constantly, do the tubs reach a cooler temp, before before the heater kicks on to keep the desired temp?

Thanks!

Pete

Jet pumps for heating and filtering do not run all the time, only during a filter cylce which can be less time because of the higher water flow. Also while enjoying the spa it is also filtering. A circ pump you will have to look into which company has them set to run 24\7 or not. Also a circ pump will have to run longer to turn over the same amount of water than using a jet pump.

All good spa react to within 1 degree of water temp change.

The brands you have listed are good ones I would worry about wether the Marquis has a circ pump or not if you really like that 1