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Calling Waterbear And The Experts!


turbottt1

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Hello Just a couple of questions. First it's time to dump the spa water. Were going to use our water from the pool to refill the spa.[ we use the bbb system] I went today and pickup two packages of sodium bromide to use as our bromine bank. First question:::: As stated on the back of the package. This product developes a bromine reserve in spa water. It is not a sanitizer. This product helps eliminate chlorine odor and helps prevent the formation of unwanted compounds when using bromine tablets. [ go brom/ by aqua one] In a two part bromine system I believe you add s. b. on fill and then use mps or bleach as a oxidizer and thats it??? So are they saying no matter what we need to use a floater with bromine tablets???? That the s.b. by itself will not sanitize the water through out it's life cycle???? Second question::::: If we are using bleach as a sanitizer in our pool why the heck do we need anything more [ bromine] in the spa???? Is the bleach harder to keep stable in hot water and the bromine even that it's not needed is easier to keep levels in the spa more stable. What do ya think????? steve

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Hello Just a couple of questions. First it's time to dump the spa water. Were going to use our water from the pool to refill the spa.[ we use the bbb system] I went today and pickup two packages of sodium bromide to use as our bromine bank. First question:::: As stated on the back of the package. This product developes a bromine reserve in spa water. It is not a sanitizer. This product helps eliminate chlorine odor and helps prevent the formation of unwanted compounds when using bromine tablets. [ go brom/ by aqua one] In a two part bromine system I believe you add s. b. on fill and then use mps or bleach as a oxidizer and thats it??? So are they saying no matter what we need to use a floater with bromine tablets???? That the s.b. by itself will not sanitize the water through out it's life cycle???? Second question::::: If we are using bleach as a sanitizer in our pool why the heck do we need anything more [ bromine] in the spa???? Is the bleach harder to keep stable in hot water and the bromine even that it's not needed is easier to keep levels in the spa more stable. What do ya think????? steve

Sodium Bromide is not a sanitizer but when an oxidizer is introduced into the water it reacts with the sodium bromide to form hypobromous acid, which is your sanitizer. It is not necessary to use a floater with bromine tabs if you check your bromine (actually hypobromous acid) levels on a regular basis and add your oxidizer to maintain a proper bromine level, usually beteen 5-8 ppm. The floater makes this a bit easier since the tabs contain both bromine and an oxidizer (either chlorine or MPS). The tabs also contain dimethylhydantion which works in a bromine system in in a similar way that CYA works in a chlorine system. It helps stabilize the bromine. It has many drawbacks however and some research indicates that the DMH can 'lock up' the bromine in much the same way that CYA can overstabilize a chlorine system and can cause the formation of many undesirable byproducts in the water. If you monitor your bromine levels and add oxidizer whenever they drop too low you do not need to use the floater.

As far as using chlorine in your spa, that is actually my sanitizer of choice. Bleach is an effetive choice (dichlor is good also) but you will need to test your levels daily and maintain a minimum of 3 ppm FC. Spas are usually maintained at 3-6 ppm. If the spa gets sun exposure then you might need to maintain a 30-50 ppm CYA level just like in a pool if you are suing bleach. (However, some state health departments are now saying that CYA should not be used in spas at all and do not even recommend dichlor for spa chlorination.) It is a good idea to shock a chlorine spa on a regular basis since the formaiton of chloramines in a spa happens more quickly because of the organics introduced into the water by the bathers in the smaller volume of water. It is a bit more work to maintain the proper FC level in a spa (when compared to a bromne system with a floater) but if you keep on top of it the water will alway be safe and clear. It's about the same as using a bromine system without the floater (daily water checks to maintain the sanitizer level).

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  • 2 weeks later...

Ok We've been using bleach for almost a week now. First I am so glad we switched from bromine to chlor. It has been working really well. No itch, rash or chemical burns. [ yahoo!!!!] A couple of questions for you. It seems like we are using quite a bit of bleach on a daily bases. When we filled the tub [ pool water] it took aprox. 2 3/4 cups of ultra to get our combined chlor in line with our free chlor. No biggie. First night a lot of out gassing [ smelled really strong. I assume from the spent chlor. that was used to bring our combined chlor. in line] After the first night it appears that we are using aprox. a cup of ultra a day to keep our free chlor. between 3/5 ppm???? My thinking is that from reading other post that our ozonator is attacking the chlor. and to keep our target of between 3/6 ppm it is going to take this amount???? Waters clear, no smell and like I said feels great. I should say that we put in a 1/2 cup after we get out in the evening and then by morning we register no chlor. either combined or free. We then add the second 1/2 of bleach. Any suggestions or just give the tub what it wants. thanks. steve

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Ok We've been using bleach for almost a week now. First I am so glad we switched from bromine to chlor. It has been working really well. No itch, rash or chemical burns. [ yahoo!!!!] A couple of questions for you. It seems like we are using quite a bit of bleach on a daily bases. When we filled the tub [ pool water] it took aprox. 2 3/4 cups of ultra to get our combined chlor in line with our free chlor.

Very possibly from the chloramines used to sanitize your fill water. Most water treatment facilities sanitize water with chloramines and not chlorine to reduce the amount of trimethylhalogens and other chlorinated by products that can form.

No biggie. First night a lot of out gassing [ smelled really strong. I assume from the spent chlor. that was used to bring our combined chlor. in line] After the first night it appears that we are using aprox. a cup of ultra a day to keep our free chlor. between 3/5 ppm???? My thinking is that from reading other post that our ozonator is attacking the chlor. and to keep our target of between 3/6 ppm it is going to take this amount???? Waters clear, no smell and like I said feels great. I should say that we put in a 1/2 cup after we get out in the evening and then by morning we register no chlor. either combined or free. We then add the second 1/2 of bleach. Any suggestions or just give the tub what it wants. thanks. steve

The ozonator will destroy some of the chlorine. Is the tub exposed to sun at all? If so you do need to have CYA in it just like in a pool....about 30 ppm. Also, the higher heat and large bather load in the smaller water volume will create a higher chlorine demand than in a pool. Remember, a hot tub is NOT just a small pool. Sanitizing one is a bit different. Have you tried adding enough chlorine to bring it to shock level after use (10 ppm if there is no cya, about 12 ppm if there is 30 ppm CYA, about 15 ppm if there is 50 ppm CYA)? It is not unusual for a tub to need some chlorine added before use to bring up the residual free chlorine to the 3-6 ppm range.

It seems that you have found how to keep your tub sanitized fairly easily. Don't lose any sleep on adding half a cup of bleach at a time if you rumbers are good and the tub is clear and clean. Seems like pretty easy maintenace to me!

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  • 5 weeks later...

Just a question. We did a water change aprox. a week ago. [ Water used from over filled swimming pool] Just like we do everytime. I noticed when we switched from bromine to chlorine the first time. that the first couple of days as we introduced the bleach it would turn white and slightly cloud the water. After the first couple of days it stopped and work just great for us. This time the same thing happened, except the cloud is not going away and is building. Only thing we did different was on fill we put in 6oz. of spa metal remover. My question is could there be a chemical reaction between the bleach and the metal remover???? All parimeters in the water are correct. We added nothing to the pool water either. Thank you. steve

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Just a question. We did a water change aprox. a week ago. [ Water used from over filled swimming pool] Just like we do everytime. I noticed when we switched from bromine to chlorine the first time. that the first couple of days as we introduced the bleach it would turn white and slightly cloud the water. After the first couple of days it stopped and work just great for us. This time the same thing happened, except the cloud is not going away and is building. Only thing we did different was on fill we put in 6oz. of spa metal remover. My question is could there be a chemical reaction between the bleach and the metal remover???? All parimeters in the water are correct. We added nothing to the pool water either. Thank you. steve

First understand that bleach IS chlorine. It's sodium hypochlorite...same as pool store liquid chlorine.

Second, if you are filling with water from your pool and the pool doesn't have a metal problem why are you adding a metal remover to the spa? Some metal removers can cause some clouding of the water temporarily, depending on their ingredients and some of them recommend dropping your free chlorine levels before use and bringing the chlorine levels back up slowly, especially those that also contain a stain remover.

Hope this helps

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waterbear I'd like to come up with some great answer as to why we put metal remover in this time. The best answer is a brain fart! I drained the tub today , flushed all the lines, vac. as much water as possible and cleaned the tub. Refilled with pool water, checked all our parimeters. Added 1 cup bleach [ chlor.] and were off and running again. No cloud no problems. Lesson learned. If it ain't broke don't fix it. There is a positive to this. We lowered the pool water aprox. 1 1/2 ". Just 6" more to go. thank you. steve

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(However, some state health departments are now saying that CYA should not be used in spas at all and do not even recommend dichlor for spa chlorination.

Why is that?

Because the presence of CYA lowers the redox potential of the water. What that means is that when an ORP electrode is used to measure the oxidizing power (sanitizing power) of the chlorine in the water the presence of CYA inhibits it and causes a lower reading. The ORP reading is used to determine how effective the chlorine is at killing water borne pathogens. Higher readings mean more sanitizing power. A reading of 650 mV is considered to be the minimum reading for a properly sanitized spa by most health departments. In a nutshell, while CYA (either added seperately or by using dichlor) will help prevent the chlorine by being destroy by sunlight by forming chloroisocyanurates, the chloroisocyanurates are not as effective at killing pathogenis in the water. Some state Health departments now feel that even small amounts of CYA are enough to allow some of the pathogens that are present in hot tubs to live too long before being killed. The other side of this coin is that if the tub is exposed to the sun the chlorine is destroyed in a matter of literally minutes leaving no chlorine in the tub at all! It's really a catch-22. My feelings on the matter is that the CYA level should be monitored and should not be allowed to get muich over 30 ppm. If it does then some of the water needs to be replaced to lower the CYA. This is why I personally llike adding the CYA to the correct level(IMHO, about 30 ppm) and then using only unstabilized chlorine (liquid chlorine or bleach) for both sanitation and shock. This way no additonal cyanurates are added to the water like when dichor is used. This is also why I don't like test strips for water blalancing and testing. They just don't have the precision to measure the levels accurately enough. A good drop based kit from a company such as Taylor Technologies or LaMotte is a good investment and the $60 or so for the kit is very small compared to what the tub cost you.

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Because the presence of CYA lowers the redox potential of the water. What that means is that when an ORP electrode is used to measure the oxidizing power (sanitizing power) of the chlorine in the water the presence of CYA inhibits it and causes a lower reading. The ORP reading is used to determine how effective the chlorine is at killing water borne pathogens. Higher readings mean more sanitizing power. A reading of 650 mV is considered to be the minimum reading for a properly sanitized spa by most health departments. In a nutshell, while CYA (either added seperately or by using dichlor) will help prevent the chlorine by being destroy by sunlight by forming chloroisocyanurates, the chloroisocyanurates are not as effective at killing pathogenis in the water. Some state Health departments now feel that even small amounts of CYA are enough to allow some of the pathogens that are present in hot tubs to live too long before being killed. The other side of this coin is that if the tub is exposed to the sun the chlorine is destroyed in a matter of literally minutes leaving no chlorine in the tub at all! It's really a catch-22. My feelings on the matter is that the CYA level should be monitored and should not be allowed to get muich over 30 ppm. If it does then some of the water needs to be replaced to lower the CYA. This is why I personally llike adding the CYA to the correct level(IMHO, about 30 ppm) and then using only unstabilized chlorine (liquid chlorine or bleach) for both sanitation and shock. This way no additonal cyanurates are added to the water like when dichor is used. This is also why I don't like test strips for water blalancing and testing. They just don't have the precision to measure the levels accurately enough. A good drop based kit from a company such as Taylor Technologies or LaMotte is a good investment and the $60 or so for the kit is very small compared to what the tub cost you.

Thanks Waterbear....is this right that I don't have the ability to measure ORP levels myself ? What is CYA sold as?

I thought I read that regular household bleach would damage the guts of the spa somewhere? I can't recall where....

The strips that came with the spa (Nature 2) have so far helped us keep the the water fresh, clear, odorless and feeling good, and the indicator pads coloring do seem to adjust responsively whenever we need to balance something.

The second bottle I bought (Accucheck)...the pad colors never get to the intensity to match the key on the back and I don't trust them.

The drop based kits seem kind of intimidating :wacko:

I don't suppose I can get away with the 14 dollar one I saw in the grocery store yesterday? :D

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Thanks Waterbear....is this right that I don't have the ability to measure ORP levels myself ? What is CYA sold as?

Not unless you invest in some very expensive equipment that really isn't necessary to maintain your spa. CYA is sold as stabilizer or conditioner at pool supply stores (and places like walmart and home depot in the pool department). Most people just use dichor which is about half CYA. If you test the CYA levels with a drop based kit (most are accurate to 10 ppm) then you can stop the dichlor when your CYA is about 30 ppm and switch to liquid chlorine (or calcium hypochlorite) for sanitation and you will not have to worry about overstabiliaztion.

I thought I read that regular household bleach would damage the guts of the spa somewhere? I can't recall where....

Chlorine is chlorine. Household bleach is EXACTLY the same as liquid chlorine except about half the strength usually (sometime it's exactly the same strenth if you buy the 6%)

The strips that came with the spa (Nature 2) have so far helped us keep the the water fresh, clear, odorless and feeling good, and the indicator pads coloring do seem to adjust responsively whenever we need to balance something.

The second bottle I bought (Accucheck)...the pad colors never get to the intensity to match the key on the back and I don't trust them.

Test strips are accurate but really don't have the precision needed for water balancing. For exampe, most test strips will tell you your pH is somewhere between 7.2 and 7.8. That is a very big range and goes from acceptable to too high!

The drop based kits seem kind of intimidating :wacko:

They are actually very easy to use once you learn to use them. The good kits come with very clear instructions

I don't suppose I can get away with the 14 dollar one I saw in the grocery store yesterday? :D

You get what you pay for. Consider how much you spent on your spa and then consider if $50-60 dollars is really a lot of money to pay for a GOOD test kit. The cheaper kits tend to have some problems with some of the tests.....mostly the pH test giving inaccurate results when chlorine levels are high and interferacnes with the calcium test, The better kits don't suffer from these problems as much.

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