Chlorine, Bromine, And Ozone

[tumbleweed]

I have allways been under the impresion that you should not use di chlor with an ozonator as the chlorine and the ozone tend to work against each other. But have heard some conflicting reports otherwise. For all the techs out there, what do you recomend and why?

[Trigger]

I have allways been under the impresion that you should not use di chlor with an ozonator as the chlorine and the ozone tend to work against each other. But have heard some conflicting reports otherwise. For all the techs out there, what do you recomend and why?

Tumbleweed

Where did you hear that? Ozinators produce ozone, a gas that kills bacteria/organic material. Ozone, per se' is very effective, but applying it so that it is efficent in a hot tub is the tricky part and a whole other debate. But to answer your question, ozone does not "work against" dichlor or bromine. In fact, ozone rapidly changles from 03 to 02. There are no negative effects on chlorine or bromine.

In the realm of hot tubs and using an ozinator, a primary sanitizer is still needed. Ozinators in the hot tub industry do not produce enough ozone to completely sanitize a hot tub. Some ueser question if it's effective at all. However, virtually everyone agrees that either Dichlor or bromine are still needed and ozinators provide only additional sanitization, requireing the user to less dichlor/bromine.

I prefer a Corona Discharge (CD) ozinator. These units produce 3x the amount of ozone than a Ultra Vilolet unit. I also belive that best results are achieved when the ozinator is allowed to run 24/7 as opposed to some tubs cycle the ozinator on and off. Additionaly I am lead to belive that in order to be effective, since the 03 quickly changes to 02, a contact chamber that allows for effiecent and quick mixing of the tub water and 03 is recomened. There is debate over the leagth necessary to achieve maximum efficeny and I've heard some crazy numbers, but on my tub , I am told I have a 3 foot contatc chamber. I have good results.

I hope this helps.

There is a lot of information out on the web concerning 03 and water purification. Google is your friend.

[dlynn]

I have allways been under the impresion that you should not use di chlor with an ozonator as the chlorine and the ozone tend to work against each other. But have heard some conflicting reports otherwise. For all the techs out there, what do you recomend and why?

My understanding of Clorine and Ozone is that you can use them together with no problems. Ozone does destroy Clorine so you may have to use a little more Clorine. I do not know how many ppm of Clorine you must use with Ozone. Many people use Clorine and Ozone together and are very happy with the results. On the other hand Bromine is enhanced by Ozone and you can use less Chemicals with Bromine and Ozone together. With Bromine and Ozone together you can reduce Bromine to 1 ppm from 3-5 ppm.

[Trigger]

My understanding of Clorine and Ozone is that you can use them together with no problems. Ozone does destroy Clorine so you may have to use more Clorine. I do not know how many ppm of Clorine you must use with Ozone. Many people use Clorine and Ozone together and are very happy with the results. On the other hand Bromine is enhanced by Ozone and you can use less Chemicals with Bromine and Ozone together. With Bromine and Ozone together you can reduce Bromine to 1 ppm from 3-5 ppm.

Dlynn,

I'm not a chemist, but I have never heard that o3 destroys dichlor. How does that happen? Does the o3 combine with the dihclor to make it less effective? Does the extra oxegen molucule combine with dichlor in some way? I do not see that happening. O3 is oxidizer that attackts the cell wall. It quickly reverts to 02.....

Every thing I've read states that o3 will help sanitize your water and REDUCE the amount of dichlor you need.

Can you explain your comment or provide me with a ref so that I can understand what you are saying? Thanks.

(Modifyinf my post...)

After doing a bit more research on the net, I've seen statements on the web that agree with you Dlynn, that o3 and Chlorine "eliminate" each other to a degree. Can someone explain what's happening? The statements I've seen do not explain it, and it's contrary to what I've been told and my actual experinces in using both 03 and dichlor.

The info I've read pertains to chlorine containing chemicals (chlroflorucarbons) can break down o3 (Ie styrofaom having neg effects on the upper ozone layer in our atmosphere)but I've never read anything about dichlor and ozone not being compatable?

[dlynn]

After doing a bit more research on the net, I've seen statements on the web that agree with you Dlynn, that o3 and Chlorine "eliminate" each other to a degree. Can someone explain what's happening? The statements I've seen do not explain it, and it's contrary to what I've been told and my actual experinces in using both 03 and dichlor.

??

I do not know the chemistry of how it works, just repeating what I have read in my research. I believe you can reduce the ppm level of clorine when combined with ozone but the amount of chemicals saved is not as much as with bromine because the ozone destroys some of the clorine. I found some research links that explained the chemistry and the amount of chemicals you use with ozone here at this site when I was looking for info but I do not remember where they were. I know a lot of regular posters here use clorine and like it, so I am sure you will get some more help as they get a chance to respond. My sister uses clorine in her spa and likes it better than bromine. Bromine is the only method I have used and I like it.

Check out rhtubs.com it has a lot of technical info about the subject.

[Trigger]

I've used both dichlor and bromine and prefer dichlor. Eh.

Yup, I'm very curious to learn more about how o3 and dichlor interact. Hopefull a resident chemist will pop in and help us.

[waterbear]

Ozone Services states on their website that chlorine and ozone "have the tendency to eliminate each other. Bromine and ozone cooperate to some degree." They further state that "bromine usage with ozone is almost 1/2 of what would be chlorine usage with ozone in the same pool - while maintaining recommended residuals"

http://www.ozoneservices.com/faq/faq015.htm

Chlorine and ozone react to form chlorine oxide, which then breaks down into chlorine and oxygen and tend to leave the water in gaseous form or form chloride and chlorate ions in the water, particularly if your ozone levels are too high. If chlorine levels are too high then the ozone is rapidly broken down into oxygen and gasses off. Ozone reacts with bromide ions in the water to form hypobromous acid (the active sanitzier in a bromine system) and bromates (depleated bromine) so it tends to reactivate the bromine into active sanitizer until the bromine bank is depleated.

Chlorine can be effectively used with ozone if you pay attention to your residual chlorine levels. However, it is more effective to use bromine with ozone.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Chlorine can be effectively used with ozone if you pay attention to your residual chlorine levels. However, it is more effective to use bromine with ozone.

[/font]

All true but Bromine has that near constant chemical smell which I find most owners do not appreciate, including this one. I stick with chlorine and find it works quite well with ozone.

[Roger]

I prefer a Corona Discharge (CD) ozinator. These units produce 3x the amount of ozone than a Ultra Vilolet unit. I also belive that best results are achieved when the ozinator is allowed to run 24/7 as opposed to some tubs cycle the ozinator on and off. Additionaly I am lead to belive that in order to be effective, since the 03 quickly changes to 02, a contact chamber that allows for effiecent and quick mixing of the tub water and 03 is recomened. There is debate over the leagth necessary to achieve maximum efficeny and I've heard some crazy numbers, but on my tub , I am told I have a 3 foot contatc chamber. I have good results.

I hope this helps.

I though I read somewhere that the new style UV units for the first year or so are as effective in producing 03 as the corona units. At 1/4 the cost.

I gota look that up again.

[tumbleweed]

OK, what all of you are saying kinda confirms what I have believed for the last 10 yrs, at one time I was of the belief that chlorine and ozone were a no no, but have seen them work together fine. I have switched some cust. who were on di chlor and ozone to bromine just because the water would not stay clear. They were not as diligent with their chems. or overused the tub without the required adjusting of sanitizer.

Thanks for the input.

[waterbear]

All true but Bromine has that near constant chemical smell which I find most owners do not appreciate, including this one. I stick with chlorine and find it works quite well with ozone.

I have to agree with what you say about the chemical smell of bromine. A properly maintained chlorine spa, with or without ozone, is practically oderless!

[Trigger]

OK, what all of you are saying kinda confirms what I have believed for the last 10 yrs, at one time I was of the belief that chlorine and ozone were a no no, but have seen them work together fine. I have switched some cust. who were on di chlor and ozone to bromine just because the water would not stay clear. They were not as diligent with their chems. or overused the tub without the required adjusting of sanitizer.

Thanks for the input.

This is where I was getting confuses T weed, I use Dichlor and a CD ozinator and have wonderful results.

Bromine didn't work well for me. I didn't care for floater constantly adding chems to the water, and more importantly my skin didn't agree with it. When I bought my new tub, the dealer recomended dichlor and o3 and it's been a world of difference for me.

I've heard about a new o3 system.....Plasma. Anyone got the skinny on that?

[ciderjack]

If you never test for bacteria or ozone, and there are some bacteria that need a level of 3-5ppm chlorine to be brougth down to a safe level, why do you think you can get away with a level of 1ppm?

Do you really think the ozone is destroying all that harmful bacteria? It's not. Ozone will oxidize any contaminants it comes in contact with. This includes minerals and dead organisms. You cannot rely on it to destroy the harmful bacteria. If you are only going to get your level to 1ppm, why bother at all? You are not getting the chlorine to a level that will kill the harmfull bacteria.

[waterbear]

If you never test for bacteria or ozone, and there are some bacteria that need a level of 3-5ppm chlorine to be brougth down to a safe level, why do you think you can get away with a level of 1ppm?

Do you really think the ozone is destroying all that harmful bacteria? It's not. Ozone will oxidize any contaminants it comes in contact with. This includes minerals and dead organisms. You cannot rely on it to destroy the harmful bacteria. If you are only going to get your level to 1ppm, why bother at all? You are not getting the chlorine to a level that will kill the harmfull bacteria.

Valid point! Many state health departments now recommend a MINIMUM free chlorine level of 2 ppm or an ORP reading of around 800 mv. Ozone will only oxidize what it comes in contact with and since it does not have a residual it does not do much good for the body of water in the tub. It is really only sanitizing what passes thruogh the reaction or injection chamber. In actual practive the ozone most likely gets used up fairly fast oxidizing the ammonia compounds produced by our bodies as we soak that it really does not do much sanitation. This is where the chlorine or bromine come into play.

[dlynn]

If you never test for bacteria or ozone, and there are some bacteria that need a level of 3-5ppm chlorine to be brougth down to a safe level, why do you think you can get away with a level of 1ppm?

Do you really think the ozone is destroying all that harmful bacteria? It's not. Ozone will oxidize any contaminants it comes in contact with. This includes minerals and dead organisms. You cannot rely on it to destroy the harmful bacteria. If you are only going to get your level to 1ppm, why bother at all? You are not getting the chlorine to a level that will kill the harmfull bacteria.

I am not an expert, I am only quoting what I have read about the use of Ozone with Bromine. There are many sources which recommend cutting Bromine to 1 ppm when used in conjuction with Ozone, they also recommend a weekly Shock treatment. I want to learn the correct methods, so if this process is not correct I need to change what I am doing. My tub has a 24 hour ozone circulation system 30 gpm. Should I be using more than 1 ppm of Bromine and a weekly shock? I have found several sites that recommend this method.

[Chas]

I want to learn the correct methods, so if this process is not correct I need to change what I am doing. My tub has a 24 hour ozone circulation system 30 gpm. Should I be using more than 1 ppm of Bromine and a weekly shock? I have found several sites that recommend this method.

I have found that there are a lot of misunderstandings in regard to using Ozone in a tub.

One thing I know for sure: a spa with a working ozone system takes far less chlorine to get to the magic 3ppm.

That's because the ozone is oxidizing organics, including oil, soap and other materials which would otherwise consume chlorine.

So - you can get a 3 ppm chlorine level with a teaspoon of dichlor in a 500 gallon tub, if the ozone system is working well.

Also, I like to put chlorine in after I get out of the tub, and I do use the tub the next night with the chlorine level below 3 ppm. I wouldn't try that without ozone, N2 or something else working for me. I have done this for 20 years without trouble.

I did have one case of hot tub rash, but that was after we started up a spa which had been sitting idle for close to two years and my kids got in before checking with Dad. I had balanced the water, but not put in chlorine yet, and my son and a niece got a real good case.

[Roger]

If you never test for bacteria or ozone, and there are some bacteria that need a level of 3-5ppm chlorine to be brougth down to a safe level, why do you think you can get away with a level of 1ppm?

Do you really think the ozone is destroying all that harmful bacteria? It's not. Ozone will oxidize any contaminants it comes in contact with. This includes minerals and dead organisms. You cannot rely on it to destroy the harmful bacteria. If you are only going to get your level to 1ppm, why bother at all? You are not getting the chlorine to a level that will kill the harmfull bacteria.

I to would be very suspect of any chlorine level or bromine below 3 PPM after I have soaked and introduced.....Ummmm.....nastys to the water. N2 or Ozone just will not kill enough of them thar nastys for me to be comfortable with my waters cleanliness. Besides, 20 bucks for 18 months worth of dichlor seems like cheap insurance, especialy when you are not soaking in it because of its quick dissapation.