Question: Adding Extra Insulation

[deandog]

Hi all.

I also have the P2 from cost co and am very happy with the tub except for a few factory defects that they are coming to fix. I just recieved my first hydro bill from Dec 6th to Jan 4th and it was 200 $ more than usual. I live in Ontario Canada and it has been very cold lately -10 C to -5 in the daytime. I definitely need to add some insulation and will try the roxul when the temp outside warms up. Thanks to all you who gave this idea. Do any of you have your new hydro bill yet since insulating? What were the results? Thanks again for the great info everyone. By the way where do I get one of these remote temperature gauges for the inside of the tub. Does Home Depot or Rona sell them in Canada? What is the product name I am looking for. TIA

Deano

I will take some pictures during my install, hopefully I do it right. So it should be between the foil wrap and the 1/2" cheap white flimsy styrofoam when I do it right. TIA

Deano

I also wondered if we have to worry about the roxul fibers getting sucked up by the blower and injected in to the tub? Has anyone had a problem with this?

Deano

[Chas]

I have helped owners of non full-foam spas add insulation. The power costs here are high, so even though we don't have the cold weather some of you folks do, it is still a concern. Please allow me to pass on some things I have learned.

A couple of things I have learned over the years may help here. One is that the first month of operation is always much higher than subsequent months. By far. And if you are opening the cabinet to make changes and the like, be sure to consider how much heat is lost during the operation itself. So give the tub a full month of operation with it's new insulation before you worry about how much it has or hasn't helped. Generally it does help. In my experience, if the tub is not heavily insulated and you add insulation, you will reduce the costs of operation significantly.

Another thing I have learned is that the only way to know how much power your tub is using is to put some form of meter on it. Unless you live in an area where you depend on huge amounts of airconditioning during the summer months, it will cost more to run a house in the winter than the rest of the year. I'm talking about shorter hours of daylight, running more lights, more heat, portable space heaters being huge energy hogs, cooking more vs. eating out, dryer loads vs. hanging laundry out to dry in the sun, and about a hundred other tiny increases which all add up. I can't tell you how many times I have gone over bills with my customers and I simply asked them to bring in two years prior to purchasing the tub. Historically their bills were much higher in winter by far - even before they bought the new tub. So don't count on your power bill to give you any indication of the cost your spa is running up. It is also true that with a tub you may very well be home - enjoying yourself - much more. You may even skip traveling on a vacation one or more weeks this year. So many many things will impact the bill that only by metering the tub can you clearly define what it is costing you.

Having said that, you oviously can't negate the benefits of having a tub cycle less frequently or run quieter. These are some very nice side benefits to better insulation, and are hard and fast.

I am not making a judgement on you or your tubs by this next statement, I am just trying to help here. But it is something I have notcied seems to be true over my twenty years of selling these things: Regardless of the style of insulation scheme, tubs with a heavy foam layer somewhere between the tub and the outside cost far less to run than tubs with layers of thinner stuff.

I have seen some people put styrofoam shipping pellets into trash bags and stuff the entire cabinet. They avoid the areas adjacent to the pumps and blowers, but fill the rest of the cabinet. Seems to have helped a lot with heat, and a side benefit was sound.

I have seem folks put a solid wall of rigid building insulation - 1.5" thick - along two or three walls of the tub and noticed a reduction in cycling, and costs. I am talking about simply putting the insulation against the outside of the cabinet and holding it there with whatever works from screws with large washers to wire to simply pushing the spa against a wall to pin the insulation in place. Looks funny, and would absorb water in deep snow, but it works surprisingly well and may be an option if the tub is set down in a deck, or against a wall of the house or a retaining wall. Avoid trapping moisture against your spa's siding.

I have also been hired to spray in foam insulation. It can be very expensive. In our inland valleys it gets cold at night in the winter - nothing like what some of you are reporting, and it warms during the day, but still far colder than here on the coast. Those folks have sometimes spent a thousand dollars on a heavy spray foam job. About a quarter of that was labor, the rest material. They reported a reduction of $50 or more per month - often as high as $100 during the coldest months, so they expected a payback by the end of the second winter. Payback would have been sooner in a colder climate, but they also liked the quieter operation and less frequent cycling. The extra freeze protection was not a huge concern since it rarely stays below freezing all day even in the deep of winter here.

If you save a hundred dollars of power costs for just four months out of the year, it will only take three years to add up to $1200. That could buy a spa with more insulation initially, or pay for a pro to come spray foam it. Or you could spend the money on materials and spray it yourself as some of you have. All are viable options.

HTH.

[Brent Hamm]

Good news..

I just found out my work has several meters. I will take one home in the next few days. Its very easy to hook up and will log all the data to a computer.

I will check the consumption of the tub..and also record some out door temps during that time.

Will let you guys know what it shows.

Further down the road (when its not so cold) i will add the insualtion. Guess i will not be able to re-test tell next winter (unless we get a warm spell soon)

[deandog]

I have helped owners of non full-foam spas add insulation. ...

.... All are viable options.

HTH.

Great info thanks

[JoeM]

agreed, thank Chas, very good info!

[NightRyder]

Does anybody else have a problem with Polystyrene panels or have any experience with using Fiberglass type insulation in their cabinets? If so, how well did it work? Did it help your costs noticably?

I added 1/4" foil covered foam radiant barrier insulation on the inside of the cabinet panels, and John Manville Comfort Therm poly enclosed fiberglass bats fastened with Velcro for easy remove-ability inside the cabinet. I've had this setup for over 2 years and it works really well. The cost to run my PE I spa averages about $30 to $35 per month during the winter in NW Oregon.

NightRyder

[NightRyder]

Call me slow but I can't picture what you did. It sounds like it works well, so can you go into detail?

I can't comprehend what you did? To where? With Velcro?

GREG!

Comfort Therm bats are wrapped in plastic, I used adhesive Velcro - One part attached to the Bat in several locations - The other part attached to a corresponding point on the spa frame.

NightRyder

[Studlygf]

Hi

I have read with interest all your posts, i don’t know if i can add to them but i will certainly pass on any of my experiences. I am from Ireland/ Northern Ireland and I have just recently purchased a spa, being a budget spa (if I can say budget) approx 6,000 USD but things here are a lot more expensive, I have found the insulation to be very thin but then it did originate from Florida so except there is not much need for insulation there.

Ok now the point of my post, I am going to try to insulate it more, obviously some of the names you mention I can not get here but some one did say about expanding foam, I have thought of spraying this round the pipe work as I found that when I turn off my jets for about a minute and then on again I can feel that that water sitting in the pipes have already started to cool. Does any one know of any problems with spraying this foam around the pipes?. I had also thought of stuffing the cabinet with fibreglass but I have a blower and was afraid of it sucking in bits of fibreglass, and also the fact of it being nasty stuff anyway. So tomorrow I am going down to my local pub, I mean hardware store to see what insulation they have. I will be happy to post photos if someone can tell me how?. By they way it is San Marino tub 5 seater with blower if anyone is interested.

[Studlygf]

Wow! Was it the Northern Ireland thing????????

[Chas]

quote=Studlygf " Hi

I will be happy to post photos if someone can tell me how?."

Post the pictures to any of the many free websites such as PhotoBucket or similar. Then click on the little 'tree' icon in the reply window. That puts this bit of code in place:

[ img] http://www.hotspring-ventura.com/ [ /img]

You just insert the address of the photo where I have put my URL.

[GKL]

Hi

I have read with interest all your posts, i don’t know if i can add to them but i will certainly pass on any of my experiences. I am from Ireland/ Northern Ireland and I have just recently purchased a spa, being a budget spa (if I can say budget) approx 6,000 USD but things here are a lot more expensive, I have found the insulation to be very thin but then it did originate from Florida so except there is not much need for insulation there.

Ok now the point of my post, I am going to try to insulate it more, obviously some of the names you mention I can not get here but some one did say about expanding foam, I have thought of spraying this round the pipe work as I found that when I turn off my jets for about a minute and then on again I can feel that that water sitting in the pipes have already started to cool. Does any one know of any problems with spraying this foam around the pipes?. I had also thought of stuffing the cabinet with fibreglass but I have a blower and was afraid of it sucking in bits of fibreglass, and also the fact of it being nasty stuff anyway. So tomorrow I am going down to my local pub, I mean hardware store to see what insulation they have. I will be happy to post photos if someone can tell me how?. By they way it is San Marino tub 5 seater with blower if anyone is interested.

I've been cautioned to remove any added insulation in the summer months to prevent heat build-up and possible damage to the pump motors.

GREG!

Hi

I have read with interest all your posts, i don’t know if i can add to them but i will certainly pass on any of my experiences. I am from Ireland/ Northern Ireland and I have just recently purchased a spa, being a budget spa (if I can say budget) approx 6,000 USD but things here are a lot more expensive, I have found the insulation to be very thin but then it did originate from Florida so except there is not much need for insulation there.

Ok now the point of my post, I am going to try to insulate it more, obviously some of the names you mention I can not get here but some one did say about expanding foam, I have thought of spraying this round the pipe work as I found that when I turn off my jets for about a minute and then on again I can feel that that water sitting in the pipes have already started to cool. Does any one know of any problems with spraying this foam around the pipes?. I had also thought of stuffing the cabinet with fibreglass but I have a blower and was afraid of it sucking in bits of fibreglass, and also the fact of it being nasty stuff anyway. So tomorrow I am going down to my local pub, I mean hardware store to see what insulation they have. I will be happy to post photos if someone can tell me how?. By they way it is San Marino tub 5 seater with blower if anyone is interested.

I've been cautioned to remove any added insulation in the summer months to prevent heat build-up and possible damage to the pump motors.

GREG!

[Ric]

Here is what I did. inside the cabinet of my spa.

1 - Put blue styrofoam panels on the floor.

2- Placed fiberglass insulation with the pink plastic wrapper throughout the inside of cabinet. Had to cut insulation, therefore it did not remain sealed. Made sure to avoid coming too close to motors.

3 - Bought a roll of reflective foil sandwiched bubblewrap type insulation. Stapled that to the frame covering the whole outside of all 4 sides. Reattached redwood sides which sealed up against sandwich foil wrap.

I live in NH and like to run hot tub in winter for apres skiing. My cost to run was about $50 per month in winter. IMHO, pretty good.

CONS: Over time the insulation picked up some moisture. Insulation also attracted field mice during winter. Not right away but after many years. They build nests and pee and poop in insulation. Not pretty. (If you don't live near nature...you might be ok with this solution.)

Accumulated moisture also attracted carpenter ants who ate on corner supporting member. Last summer I removed all insulation and used HT only in summer.

I am looking for better ideas than fiberglass insulation. Packaging "popcorn" whether loose or in black trash bags was a thought. I wouldn't mind spraying some expanding foam if I new where to get. The little cans would probably be too expensive, but then maybe not.

BTW, I am going to check out the waterproof insulation, but will the mice still nest in it? Hmmmm...

Just my experience and hope it helps.

Ric

[Roger]

='Ric' date='Jun 8 2007, 05:47 PM' post='28206']

Here is what I did. inside the cabinet of my spa.

1 - Put blue styrofoam panels on the floor.

2- Placed fiberglass insulation with the pink plastic wrapper throughout the inside of cabinet. Had to cut insulation, therefore it did not remain sealed. Made sure to avoid coming too close to motors.

3 - Bought a roll of reflective foil sandwiched bubblewrap type insulation. Stapled that to the frame covering the whole outside of all 4 sides. Reattached redwood sides which sealed up against sandwich foil wrap.

I live in NH and like to run hot tub in winter for apres skiing. My cost to run was about $50 per month in winter. IMHO, pretty good.

CONS: Over time the insulation picked up some moisture. Insulation also attracted field mice during winter. Not right away but after many years. They build nests and pee and poop in insulation. Not pretty. (If you don't live near nature...you might be ok with this solution.)

Accumulated moisture also attracted carpenter ants who ate on corner supporting member. Last summer I removed all insulation and used HT only in summer.

I am looking for better ideas than fiberglass insulation. Packaging "popcorn" whether loose or in black trash bags was a thought. I wouldn't mind spraying some expanding foam if I new where to get. The little cans would probably be too expensive, but then maybe not.

BTW, I am going to check out the waterproof insulation, but will the mice still nest in it? Hmmmm...

Just my experience and hope it helps.

Ric

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4KK29

[Ric]

Roger,

Thanks for the info!

Ric

[Tom]

I would like to [add] a little extra insulation....

Here is one possible emergency solution, seen in Edmonton, Alberta last winter. Cardboard box on corner prevents string from cutting into foam. Photographer identified brand as one commonly sold in box stores.

[spray25]

I'm new here, but wanted to contribute to this thread. I have been interested in adding insulation to my spa. I purchased two part spray foam from this company http://www.polytechfoam.com/index.php?page=TWOCOMPSPRAY It was $250 shipped to my door for the 200 board foot kit. That should easily be enough foam to put 2" on the skirt of my spa. The claimed R value is 7.2 per inch. I feel more comfortable with a spray foam than rigid foam because it will fill all voids easily and be seamless.

I am not sure when I will have time to install it but will update when I do.

[Jim_The_Jim]

I'm new here, but wanted to contribute to this thread. I have been interested in adding insulation to my spa. I purchased two part spray foam from this company http://www.polytechfoam.com/index.php?page=TWOCOMPSPRAY It was $250 shipped to my door for the 200 board foot kit. That should easily be enough foam to put 2" on the skirt of my spa. The claimed R value is 7.2 per inch. I feel more comfortable with a spray foam than rigid foam because it will fill all voids easily and be seamless.

I am not sure when I will have time to install it but will update when I do.

That sounds like a good plan, but keep in mind the temperature of the pumps in summer. And that there is also "radiant" heat that escapes. A layer of thermal foil will help with that.

[spray25]

That sounds like a good plan, but keep in mind the temperature of the pumps in summer. And that there is also "radiant" heat that escapes. A layer of thermal foil will help with that.

Do you think the pumps will over heat in the summer? Hot for us is in the upper 80's to low 90's (very low humidity). I live in the mountains so even with highs like that it gets cold at night. Yesterday was upper 70's but last night was mid 30's. We dont use the spa during the day in the summer but the pumps do run for filtering which I have noticed raises the temp significantly.

I'm not sure how to address any overheating issues with this type of insulation.

[BlueSpa]

I have seem folks put a solid wall of rigid building insulation - 1.5" thick - along two or three walls of the tub and noticed a reduction in cycling, and costs. I am talking about simply putting the insulation against the outside of the cabinet and holding it there with whatever works from screws with large washers to wire to simply pushing the spa against a wall to pin the insulation in place. Looks funny, and would absorb water in deep snow, but it works surprisingly well and may be an option if the tub is set down in a deck, or against a wall of the house or a retaining wall. Avoid trapping moisture against your spa's siding.

With winter coming I was wondering about adding insulation to our spa and was considering adding to the OUTSIDE of the cabinet as Chas suggested but the moisture issue makes me hesitate.

Our spa already has the 1.5" thick insulation panels inside the cabinet and there's not really any room to add additional inside the cabinet except maybe for the bagged popcorn insulation idea. But the unit was shipped with that great foil bubble wrap around the outside of the cabinet and I saved the stuff since I knew I'd find another use for it (yes, I'm a bit of a packrat).

The cabinet is some sort of poly/composite stuff and it won't be seen. But I wasn't sure how the panels would look after a Maryland winter - not sure drawing mold & mildew into the unit would be a good idea.

Anyone successfully insulated the outside of their cabinet??