Pre-drain Additives Remove Biolayer?

[B0Darc]

Lotsa chatter on "biolayer" lately and draining your tub to solve biohazard problems (Pseudomonas). The first time I drained my tub, I just drained it, but after a few months of heavy usage (the second go round), and problems maintaining clear water (and after reading some on here) I decided to add an enzyme product (Spa Purge) before draining. OMG! Brown foam is never something you want to see in your spa, but since it was slated to be yard food... no worries. It did prove to me that stuff can hide in the vast network of tubing underneath, and that's it's not only possible to remove, but likely a good idea.

I'm from the "School of Clorox" [thanks Richard] and I shock with Clorox weekly (drive it to 10+ ppm and aerate for 45 mins) and keep it balanced where chlorine is low when I get in daily (1-3) and add Clorox when I get out to bump to 5+ and aerate for 15 mins before I close the cover. After reading on here I also clean the dry part of the shell above the waterline on filter maintenance day with a dry microfiber ...works great. Note: microfiber cloths don't do well with high chlorine concentrations and the grippiness of the dry cloth works great to take off the scale and scudge. If you were actually sure you had Pseudomonas you might use a regular cloth with diluted bleach

Lots of bacteria above the waterline people, and from what I have read on here likely the main area to get infected form (rashes under arms etc)! I use a Clorox Surface cleaner spray which is just very weak dilution of Clorox for the difficult/crusty/calcium areas. I have had no skin problems and I have sensitive skin, even to just laundry detergents etc. I think people are somewhat afraid of Chlorine bleach because of what they see it do in concentrated form to say... their jeans. But what they really should be afraid of is Pseudomonas or other transmittable diseases. I can't even lay on the grass or the carpet without getting a rash but I have never gotten a rash from Clorox at low levels in my spa ...'nuff said.

For all the discussion we do about maintaining our water I thought I'd give the gurus a chance to talk about drain-day... let's leave out the refilling scenarios, maybe make that a next thread? After all the "what can I do to make sure all the biohazards are gone before I refill?" recent topics I thought this might be appropriate. I mean I have excellent success keeping my water crystal clear, but after adding Spa Purge ...sheeesh I dunno is it's just the product or all the funky stuff that's getting enzymatically removed from the plumbing that makes all that nasty foam (you add the product and then run the jets for an hour , leave in for 24 hours). It certainly seems like a step I wouldn't skip in the future after witnessing the results.

My question ...as I am about to change water, is the Spa Purge enzyme really removing that hidden biolayer to any significant/scientific degree? Or is it all "funk-in-a-bottle" just to make me think it's doing a job? haha is there a cheaper "enzyme" or better pre-drain flush? I know there are competitors to this line. I mean, if seeing is believing and if what I saw is actually being cleaned from my plumbing after one cycle of water, then this is not a step to skip!

[cashews]

Lotsa chatter on "biolayer" lately and draining your tub to solve biohazard problems (Pseudomonas). The first time I drained my tub, I just drained it, but after a few months of heavy usage (the second go round), and problems maintaining clear water (and after reading some on here) I decided to add an enzyme product (Spa Purge) before draining. OMG! Brown foam is never something you want to see in your spa, but since it was slated to be yard food... no worries. It did prove to me that stuff can hide in the vast network of tubing underneath, and that's it's not only possible to remove, but likely a good idea.

I'm from the "School of Clorox" [thanks Richard] and I shock with Clorox weekly (drive it to 10+ ppm and aerate for 45 mins) and keep it balanced where chlorine is low when I get in daily (1-3) and add Clorox when I get out to bump to 5+ and aerate for 15 mins before I close the cover. After reading on here I also clean the dry part of the shell above the waterline on filter maintenance day with a dry microfiber ...works great. Note: microfiber cloths don't do well with high chlorine concentrations and the grippiness of the dry cloth works great to take off the scale and scudge. If you were actually sure you had Pseudomonas you might use a regular cloth with diluted bleach

Lots of bacteria above the waterline people, and from what I have read on here likely the main area to get infected form (rashes under arms etc)! I use a Clorox Surface cleaner spray which is just very weak dilution of Clorox for the difficult/crusty/calcium areas. I have had no skin problems and I have sensitive skin, even to just laundry detergents etc. I think people are somewhat afraid of Chlorine bleach because of what they see it do in concentrated form to say... their jeans. But what they really should be afraid of is Pseudomonas or other transmittable diseases. I can't even lay on the grass or the carpet without getting a rash but I have never gotten a rash from Clorox at low levels in my spa ...'nuff said.

For all the discussion we do about maintaining our water I thought I'd give the gurus a chance to talk about drain-day... let's leave out the refilling scenarios, maybe make that a next thread? After all the "what can I do to make sure all the biohazards are gone before I refill?" recent topics I thought this might be appropriate. I mean I have excellent success keeping my water crystal clear, but after adding Spa Purge ...sheeesh I dunno is it's just the product or all the funky stuff that's getting enzymatically removed from the plumbing that makes all that nasty foam (you add the product and then run the jets for an hour , leave in for 24 hours). It certainly seems like a step I wouldn't skip in the future after witnessing the results.

My question ...as I am about to change water, is the Spa Purge enzyme really removing that hidden biolayer to any significant/scientific degree? Or is it all "funk-in-a-bottle" just to make me think it's doing a job? haha is there a cheaper "enzyme" or better pre-drain flush? I know there are competitors to this line. I mean, if seeing is believing and if what I saw is actually being cleaned from my plumbing after one cycle of water, then this is not a step to skip!

Well we did have Pseudomonas in our hot tub...got the cultured lab results to prove it....right out of a pocket of infection on DH's chest...yuck.

So when I decontaminated the tub, I did use Spa Flush. Our tub was only a few months old...and yep...the brown stuff was truly nasty. There were no ingredients on the bottle...just a claim of it's natural-ness and safety. Humph. I wish I knew more about what it actually did.

As far as my refill, I scrubbed the daylights out of the tub before rinsing and refilling. We've been safely bathing for a bit now and I'm pleased with the clearness of the water.

[Huskytub]

Hello,

I know this is my first post but I have stopped by and done some reading here. My reply here is also a question of sorts. I have been told that if I didn't want to go buy the "Spa Purge" type stuff to just get 2 to 3 pounds of 20 mule Borax, dissolve in a bucket of water, dump in my tub, run all jets on high for about and hour, let sit overnight with circulator on, run for 15 min the next day, drain, rinse, refill. Supposedly does the same job. I have yet to try anything like this but I will be doing my second refill since owning the tub so I'm going to give it a try.

Comments?

Thanks

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I would say you are crazy. You are looking to do major damage to the tub.

If you want something less exspensive, then try swirl away. We retail it for 8.00, bet you can find it online even cheaper.

Also as a note, just the plumbing line cleaners are not a safe way to get rid of the germs, just the scum. If you have or suspect the hot tub itch germ, you must go through a decontamination process which involves heavy doses of chlorine.

[Dnepr Dave]

I like the term "Funk in a bottle". It would certainly be a way to make it seem that a cleaning product is doing something!

Dave

[B0Darc]

Hello,

I know this is my first post but I have stopped by and done some reading here. My reply here is also a question of sorts. I have been told that if I didn't want to go buy the "Spa Purge" type stuff to just get 2 to 3 pounds of 20 mule Borax, dissolve in a bucket of water, dump in my tub, run all jets on high for about and hour, let sit overnight with circulator on, run for 15 min the next day, drain, rinse, refill. Supposedly does the same job. I have yet to try anything like this but I will be doing my second refill since owning the tub so I'm going to give it a try.

Comments?

Thanks

I wouldn't recommend leaving in the "Spa Purge" while you soak (not that you did either) but folks are recommending leaving in the 20 Mule Team Borax and bathing in it... quite a popular topic. If you're new look around at more of the Water Chemistry posts ...maybe search on "Borax". The tip to use Borax as a "flush" is likely based on it's increased solvency. I can only guess what is in the "Spa Flush" product, as it somewhat implies biological activity ...enzymes? I mean the last product I saw advertising "enzymes" was Rid-X for your septic tank and the video showing munching singled cell organisms chomping poo in your septic tank...

So #1 do NOT use RidX in your spa, and #2 do NOT let your imagination run wild when you hear the word "Enzyme" as it's never been scientifically used to name any single celled organism ...all TV ads aside. I know what an enzyme is, but I also know how much the term has been abused by Marketeers ...for example Borax is NOT an enzyme, and if I were to discover that Spa Purge is actually just Boric Acid ...well that would be ...Boronic.

Oh and new guy I supply mostly humor and a little technical advice ...oh! and Welcome to one of the Internet's hippest discussions about a most obscure interest ...they wanted to call it the Interestnet, but 90% of the people tested sounded like they had a speech impediment when they said the word, so they just shortened it to Internet ...ok ok I just made that up. Poolspaforum ...no "S" ...no "and" DOTcom ...Look a bird!

Bo

[B0Darc]

Ok super quick, since now I am replying to my own replies on my own thread *cough*

Looking a the SUBJECT line for my thread I understand it is MISLEADING. Hillbilly is right! While the spa flushes my *imply* they attack/eat/blah blah a spa's biolayer ...IT IS MOST IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THEY DO NOT DEFEAT Pseudomonas slime layer defense.

If you find this thread and are suffering from hot tub rash you need to look at threads targeting treatment of spas that are "contaminated". The reason Pseudomonas bacteria are a *persistent* problem is their ability to resist regular levels of sanitizer and enzyme spa purges are not a solution... just a parallel topic. My point was only maybe using a pre-drain treatment was a way to keep one's spa cleaner to prevent buildup that might allow Pseudomonas to gain a foothold on one's spa and NOT TO PROPOSE IT WAS ALL THAT WAS NECESSARY TO TREAT A SPA WITH Pseudomonas

And yes ...the stuff I saw post-Spa-Purge was not gelatinous goo it was more mineral looking like calcium crust. It just struck me that removing all that might make it more difficult for Pseudomonas to colonize, and that the visual drama of all that coming from somewhere within my hottub was well ... you know.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Some spa flush products are "enzyme" based. I have as of yet to get any of the suppliers tell what what the enzyme is. They all have a secret recipe. Had a sales rep come in the store and display how his breaks p cat food better than his competitors??

Swirl Away has a MSDS sheet here http://www.swirlaway.net/Swirl-Away%20MSDS-1.pdf

My concern with just mule team is the effects the PH could have and the damage to the tub it could cause.

[Nitro]

The real test to see whether a "Spa Flush" is removing something from the pipes, or adding it itself is to see if it gets less with use. Theoretically, if you used it a second time, you should see less (no) gunk.

I used it on this last water change (after 2 months). There was some gunk, but not too bad. The real test is next time after 4-5 months. If I see a great deal more gunk, I know it's coming from the pipes.

Also, my friend used it, and he had alot more gunk then me. If the Spa Flush was adding the gunk, you should see the same amount in all tubs, assuming your added the same amount.

[B0Darc]

The real test to see whether a "Spa Flush" is removing something from the pipes, or adding it itself is to see if it gets less with use. Theoretically, if you used it a second time, you should see less (no) gunk.

I used it on this last water change (after 2 months). There was some gunk, but not too bad. The real test is next time after 4-5 months. If I see a great deal more gunk, I know it's coming from the pipes.

Also, my friend used it, and he had alot more gunk then me. If the Spa Flush was adding the gunk, you should see the same amount in all tubs, assuming your added the same amount.

That makes perfect sense. Thanks Nitro.

Also thanks to Hillbilly again for the MSDS sheet link to a competing product <translation> What's in this spa-drain stuff (Swirl Away)? Looks like they might meet the qualifier to use the word "enzyme" with this list of ingredients (dunno if they do use the word enzyme?)

SURFACTANT BLEND

TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE

IMINODISUCCINIC ACID TETRASODIUM SALT

SODIUM BICARBONATE

Surfactant Blend - Likely being the secret ingredient (non-specific) detergent-like compound to break surface tension and increase solubility of oils (all that foam!)

TriSodiumPhosphate - good ol' TSP - whooda guessed?!

IMINODISUCCINIC ACID TETRASODIUM SALT - Enzyme/Amino Acid~! Iminodisuccinic acid is a real G00glefest

Sodium Bicarb - engh, likely to neutralize pH

The other manufacturers shouldn't be secretive. This looks like a good blend that really could NOT be easily made by a DIYer! I mean try going to your professional pool supply and buy a gallon of Iminodisuccinic acid ;-) It also looks like it does the job intended. My limited scientific evaluation might imply this is is simply a degreaser/decalcifier, but the topic stays the same as I contemplate whether oily (food!) calcium crust might be just the porous armored food source/building material a nice hearty bacteria would look to make it's castle. Thanks I feel better ...and Nitro, the degree of funkiness may be just how hard your source water is, but you're absolutely right if it was fake we'd all get the same fake result.

That cat food dissolving demo from your supply rep? Helloo? YouTube? LoL Looks like Jeffrey Dahmer would have made a good pool supply distributor "Uh yeeaah, I'll take a 55 gallon drum of that Muriatic Acid and a 55 gallon drum of that 12% Hydrochlorous acid, and a 55 gallon drum of that Iminodisuccinic acid... I have some *cleaning* to do!" Ooops I think I just freaked myself out <AcK!> <Note to self> ~Never P.O. the pool guy!

[Huskytub]

I would say you are crazy. You are looking to do major damage to the tub.

If you want something less exspensive, then try swirl away. We retail it for 8.00, bet you can find it online even cheaper.

Also as a note, just the plumbing line cleaners are not a safe way to get rid of the germs, just the scum. If you have or suspect the hot tub itch germ, you must go through a decontamination process which involves heavy doses of chlorine.

What do you mean by "major damage" and what time frame are you talking? Do you mean when I add the Borax I will walk outside the next morning and my spa will be a mound of smoking Goo .......or after years of doing this as a "bio-film removal method" before a refill, I may develop a leak or something.

I know that this will not disinfect the tub, just removing the bio-film like the O/P stated.

Thanks

[B0Darc]

The real test to see whether a "Spa Flush" is removing something from the pipes, or adding it itself is to see if it gets less with use. Theoretically, if you used it a second time, you should see less (no) gunk.

I used it on this last water change (after 2 months). There was some gunk, but not too bad. The real test is next time after 4-5 months. If I see a great deal more gunk, I know it's coming from the pipes.

Also, my friend used it, and he had alot more gunk then me. If the Spa Flush was adding the gunk, you should see the same amount in all tubs, assuming your added the same amount.

Well I caught a "warm" day for Spa Purge (overnight) and a drain/fill the next day. Remember I ran Spa Purge 3 months ago with dramatic visual results. This time I got nothing... it tinted my water a little and I had foam (TSP related no doubt). So anecdotally speaking (IMHO) it's likely not necessary to "Purge" every drain... although I bet it keeps it maximally clean. Personally I won't be repeating next drain (near Springtime) ...maybe twice a year as next test. Since I have switched to Clorox only, this last 3 month cycle I have used zero MPS, zero clarifier, about 5 lbs DiChlor and 2 1/2 lbs dry acid, and (scratching head) maybe 6 gallons of clorox ...a couple tablespoons baking soda. I have excellent source water (for a spa) very high in Calcium. The first time I filled my spa I forgot to "bypass" the water softener, what a mess numbers-wise. This time I am also going to add Borates.

Thanks for all the latest posts! One mentioned how maybe a little residual Flush might be causing foaming... very possible. After my spa was drained I shot the hose in the water at the bottom (10 gallons?) ...foam. The instructions on the bottle say to just run your jets for 5 minutes minimum as foaming can be a problem. A product material sheet for a competing product mentioned "TriSodiumPhospate" (TSP) which is the detergent-like chemical removed from laundry detergents... remember "contains no phosphates"? Makes algea grow in lakes and streams. TSP is a main ingredient in that blue stuff you rinse commercial coffee pots with... makes everything easily dissolve like burnt on coffee or crusted-on spa johnkz ...also makes lotsa suds. The fix? make sure more (that remaining 10 gallons or more) gets drained. I added some more water to the bottom with the drain still open, and last time I just used a clear hose to syphon it out ...easier to just shoot water at the problem, Man Law. Thanks for helping me dodge that bullet, that's what makes forums great.

I would say you are crazy. You are looking to do major damage to the tub.

If you want something less exspensive, then try swirl away. We retail it for 8.00, bet you can find it online even cheaper.

Also as a note, just the plumbing line cleaners are not a safe way to get rid of the germs, just the scum. If you have or suspect the hot tub itch germ, you must go through a decontamination process which involves heavy doses of chlorine.

What do you mean by "major damage" and what time frame are you talking? Do you mean when I add the Borax I will walk outside the next morning and my spa will be a mound of smoking Goo .......or after years of doing this as a "bio-film removal method" before a refill, I may develop a leak or something.

I know that this will not disinfect the tub, just removing the bio-film like the O/P stated.

Thanks

What he meant is that if you were adding the 20 Mule Team Borax to your spa you would also have to add a matched amount of (damnit don't make me do this from memory ;-) (washing Soda?) to balance the pH or it would be way off the neutral mark! Highly alkaline or highly acidic water can damage your heater and metal parts or spa shell. It's best to listen to folks who have done it for years and have been called to the houses of DIYers like you and myself ;-) to fix all the stuff we have blown up. Soooo be SURE to read the posts about adding borates via "20 Mule team Borax" instead of the pH neutral spa-centric OTC chemicals from the pool supply to see exactly what ratios of chemicals you would need to add wihte the Borax to be successful and non-destructive. [chuckle] It wouldn't have to be a pile of smoldering goo to have it's "Mean Time Before Failure" shortened.

Bo