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Total Alkalinity And Ph Help?!?!


PaulB

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I was hoping someone might be able to help me out on a balancing issue. I have a new Bullfrog Spa. The manual indicates to adjust Total Alkalinity to 125 - 150 PPM. My initial TA test (using titration method) indicated TA of about 60 PPM. I used Alkalinity Plus (sodium bicarbonate) to raise the TA to the 130 - 140 PPM range. pH testing (phenol red method) then indicated high pH of 8.2 or higher. I began bringing down the pH with pH decrease (sodium bisulfate) and when I finally got pH to Bullfrog specs of 7.4 - 7.6 Total Alkalinity was back down to about 60 PPM. It appears that pH and TA track proportionally but how in the heck do I reach my target levels and raise TA without raising pH or lower pH without lowering my TA? I attemped to raise TA again and pH shot up too! Very confused!

FWIW - I'm using granular sodium di-chloro as my sanitizer, an occassional non-chlorine shock (potassium peroxymonosulfate) and calcium hardness is at about 200 PPM

One thing I noticed is that test strips tend to vary wildly on TA levels. While my HTH titration kit indicated TA of 130 - 140, I tried using both HTH and Clean Water Blue strips and they indicated much higher TA levels???

Thanks!

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I was hoping someone might be able to help me out on a balancing issue. I have a new Bullfrog Spa. The manual indicates to adjust Total Alkalinity to 125 - 150 PPM. My initial TA test (using titration method) indicated TA of about 60 PPM. I used Alkalinity Plus (sodium bicarbonate) to raise the TA to the 130 - 140 PPM range. pH testing (phenol red method) then indicated high pH of 8.2 or higher. I began bringing down the pH with pH decrease (sodium bisulfate) and when I finally got pH to Bullfrog specs of 7.4 - 7.6 Total Alkalinity was back down to about 60 PPM. It appears that pH and TA track proportionally but how in the heck do I reach my target levels and raise TA without raising pH or lower pH without lowering my TA? I attemped to raise TA again and pH shot up too! Very confused!

You are right that TA and pH will move together. The trick is to get your pH in line first., then raise TA a bit higher than you want it and SLOWLY lower the pH back down. This should get your TA where you want it to be. Also, the constant aeration in a spa causes TA to go down because of the gassing off of CO2. The explanation is pretty technical but the solution is not that hard if you try what I suggested above and realize that you will possibly have to be adjusting TA at regular intervals. Keep track of your testing results and soon you will learn how high to raise the TA so it is in line once you adjust your pH back down.

FWIW - I'm using granular sodium di-chloro as my sanitizer, an occassional non-chlorine shock (potassium peroxymonosulfate) and calcium hardness is at about 200 PPM

MPS can lower both pH and TA since it is acidic.

One thing I noticed is that test strips tend to vary wildly on TA levels. While my HTH titration kit indicated TA of 130 - 140, I tried using both HTH and Clean Water Blue strips and they indicated much higher TA levels???

Test strips are notoriously imprecise. Stick with the drop based kit when adjusting water balance.

Thanks!

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I was hoping someone might be able to help me out on a balancing issue. I have a new Bullfrog Spa. The manual indicates to adjust Total Alkalinity to 125 - 150 PPM. My initial TA test (using titration method) indicated TA of about 60 PPM. I used Alkalinity Plus (sodium bicarbonate) to raise the TA to the 130 - 140 PPM range. pH testing (phenol red method) then indicated high pH of 8.2 or higher. I began bringing down the pH with pH decrease (sodium bisulfate) and when I finally got pH to Bullfrog specs of 7.4 - 7.6 Total Alkalinity was back down to about 60 PPM. It appears that pH and TA track proportionally but how in the heck do I reach my target levels and raise TA without raising pH or lower pH without lowering my TA? I attemped to raise TA again and pH shot up too! Very confused!

FWIW - I'm using granular sodium di-chloro as my sanitizer, an occassional non-chlorine shock (potassium peroxymonosulfate) and calcium hardness is at about 200 PPM

One thing I noticed is that test strips tend to vary wildly on TA levels. While my HTH titration kit indicated TA of 130 - 140, I tried using both HTH and Clean Water Blue strips and they indicated much higher TA levels???

Thanks!

Hi Paul:

Your Calcium Hardness is a bit on the low side. Increase your CH closer to 350.

Be sure that when you are circulating your chemicals that you have turned off any air venturis or blowers, as air in the jet stream will raise the pH as well. Using a Total Alkalinity Increaser (Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate) will generally only raise the TA (the pH will be effected, but not as much as your experience has resulted). When you use chemicals like pH up or down (Sodium Carbonate / Sodium Bisulfate), your pH and Alkalinity will both be affected - however a proper TA level serve as a buffer for the pH.

Make sure that your water has circulated for at least 30 minutes between testing (turn all air venturis/blowers off).

Test strips can be accurate as long as they are not expired and you use them correctly - no swirling and lay the test strip against the bottle flat. Don't try to analyze the color - go with the first reading. Most test strips require a 15 second window to read (as it takes that long for the proper color to appear, which is why water test stations like PinPoint that use UDV's (unit dose vials) to read levels recommend filling the vials from "right to left" and then start testing "left to right"

Hope this helps.

Tom

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Tom - Thanks for the reply. It's great to find a forum like this to help us new spa guys out! I have a couple of questions for you.

My Bullfrog manual states the CH level should be between 150 - 200 PPM. What benefit is there to having CH at 350 PPM?

I will definitely try Total Alkalinity Increaser (Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate) instead of the Alkalinity Plus (Sodium Bicarbonate) I've been using. This sounds like it will work better since it doesn't effect pH as much.

My Bullfrog (model 552) has no controllable air venturis and has two large pumps and a smaller circ. pump. Bullfrog recommends and I have the tub set to filter for 12 hours each day (6 hrs. morning/6 hrs. evening). Could this prolonged filtering raise pH also? I have never really had pH problems with the spa until I started using the TA titration method and realized TA was lower than my test strips were indicating and tried to raise the TA.

Sounds like I need to pick up the Pinpont system.

Thanks!

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I will definitely try Total Alkalinity Increaser (Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate) instead of the Alkalinity Plus (Sodium Bicarbonate) I've been using. This sounds like it will work better since it doesn't effect pH as much.

Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate is just another name for Sodium Bicarbonate which is another name for baking soda! They are the same chemical.

xxx.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99492.htm (replace the xxx with w w w)

When you increase TA you will see a slight rise in pH.... However, if you increase pH with sodium CARBONATE (soda ash, sold as pH increasers, ph +, etc.) it will also cause a large increase in TA. TA is actually the measure of the amount of carbonate, bicarbonate/carbonic acid buffer in the water and is also knows as 'carbonate hardness' in scientific circles. It is impossible to ajust one without having some impact on the other.

UDV (unit dose vial) testing is actually the same as using a liquid reagent in terms of precision. They are ususally read with a colorimeter such as in the LaMotte Waterlink systems. The reason that they are filled from right to left and read from left to right is that the first vials filled need up to 3 minutes to develop fully while the last vials filled need to be read withing 30 seconds to 1 minute. To compare a system like this with test strips is to compare apples and oranges. UDV systems are very expensive. For home use a liquid reagent testkit (or powederd/tablet reagent testkit) such as the ones from Tayor (or LaMotte) are going to be your best choice. Test strips do not have the precision needed to make water balancing adustments. They ARE accurate but they do not have the resolution needed to know if, for example, your TA is 40 ppm or 80 ppm (BIG difference) or your Total Hardness (NOT the same as calcium hardness) is 250 ppm or 450 ppm (also a big difference!)

A CH of 350 is fine but realize that high calcium hardness can lead to scale depsoits, especially if you let your pH climb high.

Thanks!

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You know that I have been teaching water care for 12 years in classes and what I have found is a lot of messed up spas because of good old "Miss Information". To be politically correct now days it is "Ms. Information". :D

Starting with the Calcium numbers: The purpose of calcium in a spa is to help buffer the pH and make the water less of a solvent.

If you take distilled water with an eyedropper and spa water with 200 PPM and put a drop of each on a piece of stainless steel, the distilled water will start to rust. The calcium water will leave deposits of calcium as it drys but no or almost no rust.

In a swimming pool the calcium is to stop the water from dissolving the swimming pool walls, plaster and concrete. Concrete is held together with calcium and water will dissolve it. So, put calcium in the pool water to slow down the destruction of your pool. The numbers for a concrete pool are over 350 PPM in some books on pool care.

Some professionals don't know this, and the spout off numbers that are not appropriate for the type of materials the "pool" is made from. If you have a vinyl liner pool you need to keep the CA to about 200 PPM like a spa that is made from plastic.

If you have too high of CA you can easily ruin an electric heater, by coating it with calcium, simply by screwing up the pH to above 8.2 or higher and not using a sequestering agent, like "Spa Defender" or "Stain and Scale".

One of the things you should absolutely never do is use "pH Perfect" or any of the liquid pH stabilizers, because I have seen too many ruined jets and heaters, mazzie injectors plugged and filters ruined.

Use a boric acid type of product, if you are having trouble with pH, instead to help buffer the pH. I like the pH Magic product and have not seen any ill effects from it other than raising the TDS (total dissolved solids).

As far as the Total Alkalinity you need to listen to me. I have gotten people to stop wasting a lot of pH products in the "fight" to get the "numbers" right.

First of all pH is primary. Repeat that a few times until it "soaks in". TA, total alkalinity is secondary and is the assistant to the pH. Repeat that a few times until it soaks in.

If you adjust the TA to some fixed number, like it is "etched in stone" and then fight to get the pH down, you are wasting products (money) and increasing the TDS for no reason other than to waste chemicals and shorten the time between draining and refilling.

The Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate is a way to "cloak" what is in Total Alkalinity increaser. It is baking soda, sodium bicarbonate, and that is all it is. We sell it to our customers in 5LB of an off brand to make it less per pound than the grocery store. Don't listen to the advertising video put out by the chemical companies: "Be sure to only use our brand of chemicals so you won't screw up your spa." That is the implication. But you must know what the chemical is that you are buying so you don't use pool chlorine in a spa or spa shock as if it was chlorine and such.

For Spas:

When you start out testing the water start with the recommended numbers on the TA, then adjust to your situation. The idea is to control the pH. (repeat twelve times). We use the TA to control the pH, not the other way around. Anybody who tells you to adjust the TA first to a fixed number is wrong, totally wrong and is causing too much work and too many wasted products.

The idea it to get through a week without having to test and adjust the water for TA and pH. If your spa has a regular use of three to four times a week it is easy to get this under control. If it is used 5 to 6 times a week you can still do it, just a little harder to do. If the use is consistent it is a lot easier to get the water under control.

If the pH goes up to above 7.8 to 8.0 with the TA of 100, then next time try 90PPM. But you never want the pH to fall below 7.0. If you can get the pH to stay about 7.6 on a weekly basis then you would raise the TA back to 90 and lower the pH to 7.2 to 7.4. The less chemicals used the better. Adjust the TA to work with your results.

I have customers who use a TA of 40 PPM and are able to keep the pH in tight range of 7.2 to 7.4 and only have to put in a small amount of TA up and not have to adjust for the pH at all. That is only for their spa and their conditions of use.

I have others who use a TA of 80 to 90 and no problems. Some need to go above that if they are using a lot of shock with tons of bathers.

It is the amounts of acids put in the water that lowers the pH. The TA in a spa will pull the pH back up and keep it from falling below 7.0. This is just a way of describing the action. If the TA is too low the pH will fall into a drop off condition and fall quickly. If the TA is too high the pH will keep going up and you will be wasting the pH Down product to fight with an improper TA number for your spa.

Now, this is the big secrete to getting the TA and pH to the numbers you have worked out. I learned this method from an "old timer" who used to adjust pools and spas professionally.

Since the TA raises the pH and the pH down lowers the TA, how in the heck do you get them both correct if you put them in at different times. If you get the TA "perfect" you have just screwed up the pH. If you get the pH "perfect" you have just screwed up the TA.

The trick is to figure out how to over dose in both directions at the same time. If you know that the "pH Down" is going to lower the TA, then put in too much TA up (a controlled overdose). If you know that the TA up is going to raise the pH, the put in too much pH down.

This only works if the spa is in a controlled range. With the acid demand system no more than three drops of acid demand and no more that 30 PPM of needed to raise on the TA.

Using a Tablespoon as if it was 1/2 ounce, use the charts and pretend that it is 1/2 ounce. It is really closer to .7 ounces to .75 of Sodium Bisulfate.

If the chart says to put in .98 ounces of pH down, put in two table spoons (about 1.5 ounces) . If the chart says to put in 2.7 ounces of TA up, put in 5 tablespoons. When you retest it is amazing how close it is.

I had a fellow in one of my classes who has owned a spa for over 10 years and when I told him that I could get the spa water in balance with this method, he said: "impossible". There is no way to get the pH at 7.4 and the TA to 100 (this was a bromine class). I always had a floor model that was needing to be adjusted for the example spa. After I adjusted the spa water and finished the class, I told the fellow to come and test the water, but he would have to wait about an hour at least before the water started to settle in.

I don't think there is a way to describe the look on his face when he tested the water. :D

I just made his life a heck of a lot easier and cut his pH balance chemicals in half.

When in doubt ask someone who does it professionally how they do it. And if they tell you that it is impossible, then you can teach them how to do it.

One of the other issues with the TA is the myth that if you want to lower the TA you dump the acid in one spot in the pool/spa, but don't sprinkle it around. It makes absolutely no difference at all. It is a myth. Acid is acid and it has the same effect no matter how you pour it in.

Oh! Yea. I only recommend using a Taylor Test kit with the Acid and Base demand tests.

The ideal is to have the pH raise a little while the TA drops a little. That way you are not "in danger" of the pH falling at the end of the week.

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You know that I have been teaching water care for 12 years in classes and what I have found is a lot of messed up spas because of good old "Miss Information". To be politically correct now days it is "Ms. Information". :D

Jim, I agree with much of your post! It is sound. If we can discuss this civilly I would like to comment on some of it.

Starting with the Calcium numbers: The purpose of calcium in a spa is to help buffer the pH and make the water less of a solvent.

If you take distilled water with an eyedropper and spa water with 200 PPM and put a drop of each on a piece of stainless steel, the distilled water will start to rust. The calcium water will leave deposits of calcium as it drys but no or almost no rust.

In a swimming pool the calcium is to stop the water from dissolving the swimming pool walls, plaster and concrete. Concrete is held together with calcium and water will dissolve it. So, put calcium in the pool water to slow down the destruction of your pool. The numbers for a concrete pool are over 350 PPM in some books on pool care.

Some professionals don't know this, and the spout off numbers that are not appropriate for the type of materials the "pool" is made from. If you have a vinyl liner pool you need to keep the CA to about 200 PPM like a spa that is made from plastic.

The jury seems to be out on just how much calcium is needed for vinyl and fiberglass constructions. Some vinyl liner manufactuers say the calcium is necessary to prevent the plasticizers from leaching from the vinyl. Others say it is not needed. Any info that I have been able to find seems to indicate that low pH is the culprit that leaches out the plasticizers. In fiberglass calcium might (or might not) help prevent leaching of cobalt from the gelcoat and help prevent staining, which fiberglass is so prone to. Bottom line is to follow the manufacturer's advice in terms of what they want for their warrenty. Acylic spas also fall into this category. The calcium is really only needed for the heat exchanger and not for the shell.

If you have too high of CA you can easily ruin an electric heater, by coating it with calcium, simply by screwing up the pH to above 8.2 or higher and not using a sequestering agent, like "Spa Defender" or "Stain and Scale".

Right on the money! Some calcium is needed to help prevent corrosion in the heat exchanger but the amount needed is nowhere near what is ususally recommened. Once again pH is the major factor here. Low pH is the main variable on whether the water is corrosive or scaling. Calcium levels as low as 100 or 150 ppm might be more than adequite for non plaster contructions but there doesn't seem to be any real research on this. Once again, the minimun recommended by the manufacturer for their warrently is probably the best guide here.

One of the things you should absolutely never do is use "pH Perfect" or any of the liquid pH stabilizers, because I have seen too many ruined jets and heaters, mazzie injectors plugged and filters ruined.

If I am not mistaken, these are phosphate based buffers. I agree that they are not the best type of product to use.

Use a boric acid type of product, if you are having trouble with pH, instead to help buffer the pH. I like the pH Magic product and have not seen any ill effects from it other than raising the TDS (total dissolved solids).

Borates are excellent at helping stabilize pH! When used iat a 30-50 ppm they also have algaestatic properties that can help reduce sanitizer load. I personally like the ProTeam products and have had very good results with them. The rise in TDS from their use is not that great and does not seem to have any ill effects when the products are dosed properly. A side benefit is the subjective 'silky' feel they impart to the water from the water softening effect of borates. Plain old borax (the 20 mule team stuff, sodium tetraborate decahydrate) can also be used to raise pH while having almost no impact on TA when this is needed and can make pH adjustment much easier than trying to use sodium carbonate to to this, which raises TA quite a bit as it raises pH.

As far as the Total Alkalinity you need to listen to me. I have gotten people to stop wasting a lot of pH products in the "fight" to get the "numbers" right.

First of all pH is primary. Repeat that a few times until it "soaks in". TA, total alkalinity is secondary and is the assistant to the pH. Repeat that a few times until it soaks in.

If you adjust the TA to some fixed number, like it is "etched in stone" and then fight to get the pH down, you are wasting products (money) and increasing the TDS for no reason other than to waste chemicals and shorten the time between draining and refilling.

The Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate is a way to "cloak" what is in Total Alkalinity increaser. It is baking soda, sodium bicarbonate, and that is all it is. We sell it to our customers in 5LB of an off brand to make it less per pound than the grocery store. Don't listen to the advertising video put out by the chemical companies: "Be sure to only use our brand of chemicals so you won't screw up your spa." That is the implication. But you must know what the chemical is that you are buying so you don't use pool chlorine in a spa or spa shock as if it was chlorine and such.

Yep, said that in my previous post. I love the way that some dealers will insist that 'sodium hydrogen carbonate' is not the same a sodium bicarbonate! (or say that laundry bleach should never be used as a source of chlorine when it is exactly the same as 'liquid chlorine'. When you consider that some places sell liquid chlorine at a stength of 6% it is EXACLTY the same as 'ultra' laundry bleach!)

For Spas:

When you start out testing the water start with the recommended numbers on the TA, then adjust to your situation. The idea is to control the pH. (repeat twelve times). We use the TA to control the pH, not the other way around. Anybody who tells you to adjust the TA first to a fixed number is wrong, totally wrong and is causing too much work and too many wasted products.

The idea it to get through a week without having to test and adjust the water for TA and pH. If your spa has a regular use of three to four times a week it is easy to get this under control. If it is used 5 to 6 times a week you can still do it, just a little harder to do. If the use is consistent it is a lot easier to get the water under control.

If the pH goes up to above 7.8 to 8.0 with the TA of 100, then next time try 90PPM. But you never want the pH to fall below 7.0. If you can get the pH to stay about 7.6 on a weekly basis then you would raise the TA back to 90 and lower the pH to 7.2 to 7.4. The less chemicals used the better. Adjust the TA to work with your results.

I have customers who use a TA of 40 PPM and are able to keep the pH in tight range of 7.2 to 7.4 and only have to put in a small amount of TA up and not have to adjust for the pH at all. That is only for their spa and their conditions of use.

I have others who use a TA of 80 to 90 and no problems. Some need to go above that if they are using a lot of shock with tons of bathers.

The amont of aeration the spa gets also has an effect on TA and pH due to the outgassing of CO2. This factor is often overlooked.

It is the amounts of acids put in the water that lowers the pH. The TA in a spa will pull the pH back up and keep it from falling below 7.0. This is just a way of describing the action. If the TA is too low the pH will fall into a drop off condition and fall quickly. If the TA is too high the pH will keep going up and you will be wasting the pH Down product to fight with an improper TA number for your spa.

Now, this is the big secrete to getting the TA and pH to the numbers you have worked out. I learned this method from an "old timer" who used to adjust pools and spas professionally.

Since the TA raises the pH and the pH down lowers the TA, how in the heck do you get them both correct if you put them in at different times. If you get the TA "perfect" you have just screwed up the pH. If you get the pH "perfect" you have just screwed up the TA.

The trick is to figure out how to over dose in both directions at the same time. If you know that the "pH Down" is going to lower the TA, then put in too much TA up (a controlled overdose). If you know that the TA up is going to raise the pH, the put in too much pH down.

Said that in my previous post also.

This only works if the spa is in a controlled range. With the acid demand system no more than three drops of acid demand and no more that 30 PPM of needed to raise on the TA.

Using a Tablespoon as if it was 1/2 ounce, use the charts and pretend that it is 1/2 ounce. It is really closer to .7 ounces to .75 of Sodium Bisulfate.

If the chart says to put in .98 ounces of pH down, put in two table spoons (about 1.5 ounces) . If the chart says to put in 2.7 ounces of TA up, put in 5 tablespoons. When you retest it is amazing how close it is.

I had a fellow in one of my classes who has owned a spa for over 10 years and when I told him that I could get the spa water in balance with this method, he said: "impossible". There is no way to get the pH at 7.4 and the TA to 100 (this was a bromine class). I always had a floor model that was needing to be adjusted for the example spa. After I adjusted the spa water and finished the class, I told the fellow to come and test the water, but he would have to wait about an hour at least before the water started to settle in.

I don't think there is a way to describe the look on his face when he tested the water. :D

I just made his life a heck of a lot easier and cut his pH balance chemicals in half.

When in doubt ask someone who does it professionally how they do it. And if they tell you that it is impossible, then you can teach them how to do it.

One of the other issues with the TA is the myth that if you want to lower the TA you dump the acid in one spot in the pool/spa, but don't sprinkle it around. It makes absolutely no difference at all. It is a myth. Acid is acid and it has the same effect no matter how you pour it in.

EXACTLY! The 'Slug method" just doens't work. In theory the pocket of low pH will cause the CO2 to gas off but it usually doesn't unless the water is aerated! I have actually seen decriptions of this method that say that CO2 bubbles can be seen in the areas the acid is put in. A way to lower TA that actually works if it is too high is to lower the pH to about 7.0-7.2 and then turn on all the bubblers and jets with the venturis wide open. This will cause the CO2 (carbonic acid) part of the TA buffer system to gas off (Much like shaking a bottle of club soda to make it go flat). The result will be the pH will climb but the TA will stay where it is. When the pH is where you want it (7.4-7.6) you will find that the TA is lower than when you started. If the TA is still too high just repeat the process. (If you are good at water balancing you can just lower the pH, aerate, and keep testing TA and pH....keeping the pH at 7.0-7.2 until the TA is on target then stop adding acid and let the aeration bring the pH back up. The TA will stay at the new lower level. If you don't believe me then please try this)

Oh! Yea. I only recommend using a Taylor Test kit with the Acid and Base demand tests.

Taylor K-2006 (for chlorine) and K-2106 (for bromine) are my recommendations for home use.

The ideal is to have the pH raise a little while the TA drops a little. That way you are not "in danger" of the pH falling at the end of the week.

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Our first Spa's being delivered in about an hour (482 Coleman) so later this afternoon we'll be having our first bout with chemicals. The dealer tested our well water - pH = 8.7, TA = 190, CA = 1, and no Copper or Iron. We've been furnished with Spa Essentials brand Alkalinity Increaser (Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate,) pH decreaser (Sodium Bisulfate,) pH increaser (Sodium Carbonate,)Calcium Hardness Increaser, Dichlor to sanitize and Potassium Peroxymonosulfate for the weekly oxidizing I was gonna use the Diclor to shock but they said no.) They said to use 10 0z of the pH decreaser and retest in 30 minutes and to target a pH at 7.5ppm. (I've no clue of course where this will leave the Alkalinity.) Then, add 15oz of Calcium initially then 4oz evry 30min until between 200 to 400ppm is achieved. After the Spa is full we'll test again on our end to see how it compares with the dealers test and then do as they've suggested (unless you two have some different ideas.) I'll post results later and then bring the free Chlorine up to 4.0-5.0

Any thoughts? We have a drop based Poolmaster test kit.

Thanks in advance for any input.

Joel

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Our B4 chemicals tests showed pH above our 8.2 scale (dealers was 7.8) and TA at 290 dealers was 190.) We added 20 tablespoons (about 10oz?) pH decreaser and pH came down to 7.2 and Ta 250. We're adding 3 tablespoons and retesting every 30/60 minutes. After the 2nd dose the pH was 8.0 and TA 210. Are we being overly cautious with just adding 3 tablespoons at a whack? Our Calcium needs increasing too, but haven't messed with that yet. Should we?

Thanks for any insite

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After 26oz of Sodium Bisulfate the pH and TA are 7.2 and 90. We'll watch which way they go from there. I eased to those numbers using 3 0r 6 tbls at a time. Providing the virgin water tests the same can I add that 26oz all at once after the next refill? Besides reading the forums, I've only got 2 days or so of this chemical stuff under my belt with our new Spa. Not certain yet, but it seems so far that at night, after the last soak, 3 teaspoons of Diclore will after 10 minutes or so, give a suggested Clorine level of 5ppm. Then it's zero the next morning. It was suggested by the dealer to use a Leisure time spa frog and I could just get that doesing level to .5 or 1.5 or so. I asked what minerals were in the thing and he looked at me funny. The web site doesn't say what's in it either. I'm not using the frog thing. I'm trying to keep things clean and simple. Vermonter suggests 2-3ppm of clorine. My wife doesn't want purple hair or bleached clothes. What's a safe after dose level, and is that the only time it's to be that high and the only time purple hair's a threat? (What the heck, kids like purple hair.)

Thanks

Joel

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After 26oz of Sodium Bisulfate the pH and TA are 7.2 and 90. We'll watch which way they go from there. I eased to those numbers using 3 0r 6 tbls at a time. Providing the virgin water tests the same can I add that 26oz all at once after the next refill? Besides reading the forums, I've only got 2 days or so of this chemical stuff under my belt with our new Spa. Not certain yet, but it seems so far that at night, after the last soak, 3 teaspoons of Diclore will after 10 minutes or so, give a suggested Clorine level of 5ppm. Then it's zero the next morning. It was suggested by the dealer to use a Leisure time spa frog and I could just get that doesing level to .5 or 1.5 or so. I asked what minerals were in the thing and he looked at me funny. The web site doesn't say what's in it either.

The 'minerals' (a marketing term for metals) in the Frog system are silver and zinc, although the website was recently updated and all references to zinc are now absent. Either they removed the zinc or it served no purpose in the water sanitation and the claims they made for it were not true. Silver is bacteriostatic but it has very slow kill times so a residual santizer is still necessary. The newest research on water borne pathogens suggests that chlorine residuals in a 'mineral' system should not go below 2 ppm.

I'm not using the frog thing. I'm trying to keep things clean and simple. Vermonter suggests 2-3ppm of chlorine.

Most state health departments now say that free chlorine levels should never be below 2 ppm and can be as high as 10 ppm. This is a big change from just a little while back when free chlorine levels were supposed to be between 1-3 ppm.

My wife doesn't want purple hair or bleached clothes. What's a safe after dose level, and is that the only time it's to be that high and the only time purple hair's a threat? (What the heck, kids like purple hair.)

I have never known chlorine to produce purple hair. Copper in the water from ionizers, 'mineral systems', or copper based algaecides or copper based 'alternative sanitizers' can cause green stains on hair and nails. Chlorine will not when there are no metals present. Chlorine at normal levels will not beach clothes and like I previously stated, most state Health departements say that levels between 2-10 ppm are safe. The bigger danger is having the chlorine too low since this can lead to the transmission of water borne illnesses.

Thanks

Joel

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Thanks for the reply Waterbear, I very much respect your opinion. (Sometimes it's hard to wade through internet opinions.)

Anyway, I'm not hair color savvy as green is the color change my wife worries about, not purple. She swears just some small (unknown) level of clorine will color hair green, and wants me to worry about it. Sooo, how about green problems?

Also, last night I dosed the tub with 3 tsp of diclor (didn't check 10min later though) and this AM clorine reads at 2ppm. Is the 2ppm minimum you mentioned an after dose level to acheive when the dichlors starting it's work, or a level to have after it's supposed to have done it's work 4 to 8 hours later?

Thanks again

Joel

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