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A Serious Pseudomona Issue


cashews

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First time poster here. I've enjoyed reading on the site for a couple of months now. We've had our Jacuzzi 230 with ozonator and 24 hour circ pump for 2 months. I've read and read and read and asked our hot tub seller for advice on how to monitor the chemicals from the get go. I thought I was doing quite well with all of the readings on my Aquacheck free chlorine test strips looking great EXCEPT the chlorine level barely read anything at all..usually zero. When questioning my seller about that, he said adding a 'capful' of chlorine once a week (sani-chlor, I believe), was sufficient....and that the ozonator would be working to disinfect and would actually break down that chlorine. I found that yes, the chlorine level would indeed drop after a day or two. But I contiuned to follow the plan, chlorine once a week, shock after use and regularly test all the others.

Anyhow, our tub had been a nightly family enjoyment for our family of 4. But, after about a month, our children and my husband had 'bug bites'. Itchy itchy red spots. I thought they were bug bites as the little gnat-like bugs had truly been biting bad in our area over that period of time. It wasn't until my husband showed me the side of his torso and actually, his left breast area that I became concerned. It was a swollen, hot to the touch, fire red, 2 inch sized area. I demanded he go to the doctor first thing in the morning. It was hurting him badly. The side of his torso had nearly 20-30 smaller red spots, but they didn't look angry like his chest did. The doctor tried to drain the hard nodule (thought it was pus filled I guess) that was under the nipple area. I cringed when DH told me, but the dr. cut into it and with not much coming out and not wanting to go deeper, he packed it full of gauze and sent him home with antibiotics and said he'd have to have minor surgery if it didn't improve quickly. It did slightly better after a couple of days and then the dr. called with the results of pseudomonas. The dr. said it was rare...but after researching online, I knew it had to have been from our hot tub. It has completely healed over the course of a good two weeks.

We haven't gone in the tub for about 3 weeks now til I have the time to figure out what to do. I have superchlorinated it many times, and am adjusting all of the levels. Of course my CYA is about 150...way too high. I'm set to drain it anyhow, but am wondering if my process for getting rid of the bacteris is alright...i know those little buggers are hard to kill especially if they hav their slime coating on (FYI, the tub side do not feel slimy what so ever, and the water is currently crystal clear) OK, how does my decontam process look:

superchlorinate to 10ppm with sani-chlor

drain

diluted bleach scrub the entire tub, cover as well.

Rinse all surfaces

refill entire tub

superchlorinate again

drain

fill

bring all levels to correct range

Is this procedure good enough?

And the next question, is adding sanichlor 3x/week to get it up to about 4ppm good enough, or is it just making the CYA too high? I just have trouble keeping the sanitizer up with that ozonator. I think this is when the pseudomonas colonized....the ozonator didn't do squat.

And should I use sanichlor to bring it to 4ppm initially, and then switch to regular bleach be best to keep the CYA in check?

Thanks for your advice. I'm so glad the kids just had the bug bite effect from the pseudomonas, but I'm worried that I won't be able to kill them all and an abcess like my DH's could happen again. It wasn't good. :(

THANKS FOR YOUR THOUGHTS and the time you took to read my saga!! :)

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Hot tub rash/itch is not that uncommon and I've been keeping track of such incidents reported in this forum here. It's mostly caused by too low a sanitizer level and I was trying to see if this also included too low a level due to too high a CYA level (which makes chlorine less effective unless FC is raised proportionately). The jury's still out on that though it seems that after a month or two of Dichlor-only, the CYA level may be too high in many cases and let this hot tub itch bacteria take hold.

As for a sanitation procedure, Hillbilly Hot Tub has a good one and it has much higher chlorine levels than you've described (i.e. much higher than 10 ppm).

I presume your "sanichlor" is Dichlor. You were not adding nearly enough chlorine for the tub to remain sanitary. I don't think it was the CYA being too high but rather having the chlorine get to zero or near-zero for too long. The ozonator will NOT sanitize the tub. It is not a bulk sanitizer, but an oxidizer for water that passes through (circulates into) the ozonator. It does absolutely nothing for bacteria stuck in biofilms on surfaces nor killing such bacteria in the water before they have a chance to form slime layers (which Pseudomonas does quite readily).

Because the ozonator will oxidize some of your sweat, you might be able to use slightly less chlorine, but the only way to know for sure is to accurately test it with a good test kit. You should add as much chlorine as is needed to retain a residual FC reading just before you get in for the next soak. Every person-hour of soaking requires about 3.5 teaspoons of Dichlor (independent of spa size) or 5 fluid ounces of 6% unscented bleach or 7 teaspoons of MPS (though that does not sanitize; it is mostly an oxidizer), but again just use that as a guide and adjust accordingly. Definitely add it (at a minimum) after every soak.

If you want to use the "Dichlor for one week, then switch to bleach" method, then I suggest turning off the ozonator -- not just the ozone generation part, but the air injection part. This is because the aeration from the ozonator will tend to make the pH rise faster and when using bleach the pH will tend to rise so you'll want to minimize such aeration and have a lower Total Alkalinity (TA) level.

Richard

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HI Richard,

Thanks for your response. I found and printed HHT's procedure. wonderful!

Yes I was ALL wrong on the initial chlorinating and yes it's dichlor that I am using. The CYA really didn't begin increasing until after I realized we had the pseudo problem...because that's when I chlorinated the heck out of it. When I was blissfully unaware that the pseudos were setting up shop, the CYA was within the 50-100 level, but the chlorine level was way too low. I ignorantly assumed, as per the seller, that the ozone picked up the slack on sanitizing...he told me I only needed to sanitize once a week.

You should add as much chlorine as is needed to retain a residual FC reading just before you get in for the next soak.

Every person-hour of soaking requires about 3.5 teaspoons of Dichlor (independent of spa size) or 5 fluid ounces of 6% unscented bleach or 7 teaspoons of MPSDefinitely add it (at a minimum) after every soak.

Wow, chlorinate to a safe level just before getting in and shock and chlorinate per bather load just after as well. That is WAY more that what I was doing. Thank you for that advice.

Richard, can I ask, do you assume ozonator is causing that breakdown of chlorine (the great flucuation in chlorine level like 4ppm one day, and nearly a day and a half later, with NO bathing, it drops to zero), or are there just that many microbes to kill therefore using up the chlorine. I haven't opened the panel ever to see what everything looks like. If I find a place to shut off the ozonator, I will. I almost want to just shut the thing off for good, if it's actually eating up my chlorine.

I truly appreciate your time, I want to be able to enjoy this tub again. Safely.

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I think you will find lots of people who swear by the ozonator. My tub came with one and for the first fill or two it probably helped since I had little understanding of how to manage the water in the first place.

The selling point of ozone is that you can keep the chlorine at 1-3PPM, versus like 3-5PPM. I find less than 3PPM insufficient to manage peak loads like 4+ teenagers all at once anyways. YMMV.

Once I figured out the balancing process I disconnected the ozonator and I am now convinced that, under normal circumstances, with a chlorine system, it makes it harder to keep the spa sanitized. The ozonator would take a 3-5PPM chlorine reading to 0 in less than 24 hours with nobody using the spa. Maybe my ozonator is too aggressive, but when you start reading about the health effects of ozone (not to mention what it does to plastic spa covers!) you have to wonder what the benefit is.

On my system the electrical part of the ozonator was connected via a plug on the side of the spa internal control module, just followed the cable and unplugged it (turn off the breaker before rooting around under the cover). I'm not sure how the aeration part works, in my case I suspect I have a mechanical/venturi thing which works in conjunction with the spa's secondary filter pump which runs continuously.

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I think you will find lots of people who swear by the ozonator. My tub came with one and for the first fill or two it probably helped since I had little understanding of how to manage the water in the first place.

The selling point of ozone is that you can keep the chlorine at 1-3PPM, versus like 3-5PPM. I find less than 3PPM insufficient to manage peak loads like 4+ teenagers all at once anyways. YMMV.

Once I figured out the balancing process I disconnected the ozonator and I am now convinced that, under normal circumstances, with a chlorine system, it makes it harder to keep the spa sanitized. The ozonator would take a 3-5PPM chlorine reading to 0 in less than 24 hours with nobody using the spa. Maybe my ozonator is too aggressive, but when you start reading about the health effects of ozone (not to mention what it does to plastic spa covers!) you have to wonder what the benefit is.

On my system the electrical part of the ozonator was connected via a plug on the side of the spa internal control module, just followed the cable and unplugged it (turn off the breaker before rooting around under the cover). I'm not sure how the aeration part works, in my case I suspect I have a mechanical/venturi thing which works in conjunction with the spa's secondary filter pump which runs continuously.

Thanks for your thoughts lmartine. Now that I'm putting more chlorine in it, it just disappears WAY too soon...with nobody using the spa. Sounds like I'm not the only one dealing with this issue. I guess it's really hard to know if the tub is safe at that lower level of chlorine (1ppm) IF you can even keep it at that level for any period of time.

Maybe today I can look for that plug....and pull it! :)

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Glad you found the decontamination write up helpful. Make sure to use the super chlorinated water on your cover, under the pillows and up over the lip of the tub where the controls are.

As for unhooking the ozone, be careful if you unhook the air line to it also, it is attaced to one of the jets and if the check calve fails your tub will lose water out of that line. It would have to be capped off to be safe.

I have never heard that ozone depletes the chlorine...it is an oxidizer that helps the chlorine work causing you to use less chlorine. If you were chewing up that much chlorine then there was something in the water. Metals are a big factor of rapid chlorine use. What was your total chlorine reading? You say what you keep your free chlorine at, but if your combined or total chlorine was high this could be why you are chewing up chlorine.

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Cashews both Chem Geek and Hillbilly Hot Tub are correct. I had a tub for about 9 years with an ozonator and the dealer selling point is that you don't use as much chemicals and the the ozonator would kill the germs and you would only need to have a FC base of 1-3 ppm. Also as this was my first hot tub they offered a class on how to maintain your hot tub. The told us to use a capfull of show after we got out of the tub and then only put chlorine in once a week. Well the chlorine levels went down to 0 and I called them on the phone and they said don't worry the ozonator would kill the bad stuff and what I was doing was correct. I ended up getting hot tub Folliculitis. Was lucky that the doctor had an excellent paper from the CDC explaining that I should not keep the FC at 1 to 3ppm but to maintain a much higher level of between 7 to 10ppm even with an ozonator. Also did more research on the internet and found out that the CDC was correct. Now the ozonator would operate when the pump was turned on or during a filtration cycle.

So I dumped the water, washed the tub out good, used a sponge with a mixture of bleech and water and refilled tub. I also switched to a shock that also had chlorine in it. Once I got my PH balanced I would have to only put in every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday about a table spoon of chlorine.

Every other week on Sunday I would put 2 table spoons of Shock with chlorine in the tub. The week that I would use the shock I found out that I only had to put chlorine in on thursday.

Check your PH levels if it's too high or too low the FC will drop off faster. I saw that in my tub and would then check my PH and would find that it was either to low.

Replaced the tub this last July with an Arctic Glacier Signature with Onzen system. When I fill up the tub I add about 6 lbs of salt and the Onzen generator uses the salt in the water and makes chlorine.

If you are using test strips I would invest in a good Taylor K-2100 test kit.

On my Arctic tub I use both a Taylor test kit and a ColorQ Pro 7.

Chuck

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Glad you found the decontamination write up helpful. Make sure to use the super chlorinated water on your cover, under the pillows and up over the lip of the tub where the controls are.

As for unhooking the ozone, be careful if you unhook the air line to it also, it is attaced to one of the jets and if the check calve fails your tub will lose water out of that line. It would have to be capped off to be safe.

I have never heard that ozone depletes the chlorine...it is an oxidizer that helps the chlorine work causing you to use less chlorine. If you were chewing up that much chlorine then there was something in the water. Metals are a big factor of rapid chlorine use. What was your total chlorine reading? You say what you keep your free chlorine at, but if your combined or total chlorine was high this could be why you are chewing up chlorine.

I will decontaminate the cover, pillows and the lip as well, thank you.

I'm timid about getting in under the cover, but will do what I need to do...carefully.

As far as the chlorine levels...now I'm kind of a nut for getting things right, and those test strips obviously only measure free chlorine levels, so I will be getting one of those well-advised Taylor kits and seeing just where the total/combined levels are.

Funny about the ozone, my seller also mentioned it sort of depletes chlorine as well. Whether it be that or too many microbes.. I'm extremely glad to be purging, draining and cleaning soon. I WANT TO GET IN THAT TUB...this fall weather is just perfect. And my LED lights are so fun too.

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Cashews both Chem Geek and Hillbilly Hot Tub are correct. I had a tub for about 9 years with an ozonator and the dealer selling point is that you don't use as much chemicals and the the ozonator would kill the germs and you would only need to have a FC base of 1-3 ppm. Also as this was my first hot tub they offered a class on how to maintain your hot tub. The told us to use a capfull of show after we got out of the tub and then only put chlorine in once a week. Well the chlorine levels went down to 0 and I called them on the phone and they said don't worry the ozonator would kill the bad stuff and what I was doing was correct. I ended up getting hot tub Folliculitis. Was lucky that the doctor had an excellent paper from the CDC explaining that I should not keep the FC at 1 to 3ppm but to maintain a much higher level of between 7 to 10ppm even with an ozonator. Also did more research on the internet and found out that the CDC was correct. Now the ozonator would operate when the pump was turned on or during a filtration cycle.

So I dumped the water, washed the tub out good, used a sponge with a mixture of bleech and water and refilled tub. I also switched to a shock that also had chlorine in it. Once I got my PH balanced I would have to only put in every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday about a table spoon of chlorine.

Every other week on Sunday I would put 2 table spoons of Shock with chlorine in the tub. The week that I would use the shock I found out that I only had to put chlorine in on thursday.

Check your PH levels if it's too high or too low the FC will drop off faster. I saw that in my tub and would then check my PH and would find that it was either to low.

Replaced the tub this last July with an Arctic Glacier Signature with Onzen system. When I fill up the tub I add about 6 lbs of salt and the Onzen generator uses the salt in the water and makes chlorine.

If you are using test strips I would invest in a good Taylor K-2100 test kit.

On my Arctic tub I use both a Taylor test kit and a ColorQ Pro 7.

Chuck

Chuck, I appreciate reading your process of sanitizing. THanks. I always felt the ph was alright at 7.8. That is I guess, the upper end of normal. Maybe I need to drop it down a bit once I get the tub drained, cleaned and set up again.

I'm looking forward to all of this becoming second nature. Right now, it seems like work. YK?

I'll get there... :)

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Ozonators are a catch-22. On the one hand, the ozone is an oxidizer so to the extent that it oxidizes bather waste (sweat and urine, dead skin, etc.) it helps to reduce chlorine demand. However, ozone is such a strong oxidizer that it can oxidize chlorine itself to chlorate thus depleting Free Chlorine (FC).

2O3 + OCl- ---> 2O2 + ClO3-

Ozone + Hypochlorite Ion ---> Oxygen + Chlorate Ion

Also, if there is chlorine in the water, it will combine with ammonia from sweat and urine to form monochloramine VERY quickly (in seconds) -- much faster then it would take for the ammonia to get through the ozonator. So I suspect that those who find that the ozonator reduces chlorine demand are those that do not have much chlorine during or shortly after the soak. If you wait to add chlorine until after the ozonator has oxidized the bather waste, then it will likely appear that the chlorine demand is fairly low. Of course, waiting too long with no chlorine means giving hot tub itch bacteria a chance to form biofilms and grow.

Even with no ozonator and no bather load and assuming that there is nothing left in the water to oxidize (i.e. that previous bather load has been fully taken care of), there will still be a chlorine drop over time due to the high spa temperature which leads to the outgassing of chlorine, and possibly some slow oxidation of Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by the chlorine, but it's fairly slow so most people do see chlorine last a few days, but probably not a week.

As for test kits, the one to get is either the Taylor K-2006 you can get at a good online price here or the TF100 kit from tftestkits.com here with the latter kit having 36% more volume of reagents so is comparably priced "per test". The key is to get a test kit that uses a FAS-DPD chlorine test since you will be measuring higher chlorine levels and want to do so with some accuracy -- the colorimetric comparator chlorine tests just aren't accurate enough. Once you get a feel for your spa, this will all become very easy -- the more intensive testing is just in the beginning until you understand your specific situation better.

Richard

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Ozonators are a catch-22. On the one hand, the ozone is an oxidizer so to the extent that it oxidizes bather waste (sweat and urine, dead skin, etc.) it helps to reduce chlorine demand. However, ozone is such a strong oxidizer that it can oxidize chlorine itself to chlorate thus depleting Free Chlorine (FC).

2O3 + OCl- ---> 2O2 + ClO3-

Ozone + Hypochlorite Ion ---> Oxygen + Chlorate Ion

Also, if there is chlorine in the water, it will combine with ammonia from sweat and urine to form monochloramine VERY quickly (in seconds) -- much faster then it would take for the ammonia to get through the ozonator. So I suspect that those who find that the ozonator reduces chlorine demand are those that do not have much chlorine during or shortly after the soak. If you wait to add chlorine until after the ozonator has oxidized the bather waste, then it will likely appear that the chlorine demand is fairly low. Of course, waiting too long with no chlorine means giving hot tub itch bacteria a chance to form biofilms and grow.

Even with no ozonator and no bather load and assuming that there is nothing left in the water to oxidize (i.e. that previous bather load has been fully taken care of), there will still be a chlorine drop over time due to the high spa temperature which leads to the outgassing of chlorine, and possibly some slow oxidation of Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by the chlorine, but it's fairly slow so most people do see chlorine last a few days, but probably not a week.

As for test kits, the one to get is either the Taylor K-2006 you can get at a good online price here or the TF100 kit from tftestkits.com here with the latter kit having 36% more volume of reagents so is comparably priced "per test". The key is to get a test kit that uses a FAS-DPD chlorine test since you will be measuring higher chlorine levels and want to do so with some accuracy -- the colorimetric comparator chlorine tests just aren't accurate enough. Once you get a feel for your spa, this will all become very easy -- the more intensive testing is just in the beginning until you understand your specific situation better.

Richard

The ozonator explanation is very helpful...and sounds familiar. It will require some careful observation on my part as I refill and continue to assess the water.

THANK YOU for the explanations. :)

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Because the ozonator will oxidize some of your sweat, you might be able to use slightly less chlorine, but the only way to know for sure is to accurately test it with a good test kit. You should add as much chlorine as is needed to retain a residual FC reading just before you get in for the next soak. Every person-hour of soaking requires about 3.5 teaspoons of Dichlor (independent of spa size) or 5 fluid ounces of 6% unscented bleach or 7 teaspoons of MPS (though that does not sanitize; it is mostly an oxidizer), but again just use that as a guide and adjust accordingly. Definitely add it (at a minimum) after every soak.

Not to hijack this thread. However, I find I don't need near that amount of chlorine. For instance me and my lady can soak in the tub for two hours with FC starting at 5ppm. After getting out the FC is 1-2. I then add 4 oz bleach which brings FC to 8-9. The next day the FC is around 5, to where we start over. If we don't use the tub for a day, I might add 1-2 oz to keep it around 5. Once a week, I'll shock it to 13 for the heck of it. If I have friends over I'll add 2-3 oz bleach every hour, and shock to 13 afterward. My FC has never been below 1, and it's always at least 5 before we soak.

Question: Is 5 oz bleach per 1 person/hr a conservative figure? Bleach is so cheap, I'd gladly use more if I thought I needed to. But from my experience it doesn't appear that I do. Comments?

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Question: Is 5 oz bleach per 1 person/hr a conservative figure? Bleach is so cheap, I'd gladly use more if I thought I needed to. But from my experience it doesn't appear that I do. Comments?

Yes, it's conservative in that it's the highest amount seen to work consistently for all users. Is your hot tub at 104F or is it cooler? The amount of chlorine is related to the amount of sweat. Other than the periodic shock levels, do you use any other oxidizer such as MPS or do you have an ozonator?

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Question: Is 5 oz bleach per 1 person/hr a conservative figure? Bleach is so cheap, I'd gladly use more if I thought I needed to. But from my experience it doesn't appear that I do. Comments?

Yes, it's conservative in that it's the highest amount seen to work consistently for all users. Is your hot tub at 104F or is it cooler? The amount of chlorine is related to the amount of sweat. Other than the periodic shock levels, do you use any other oxidizer such as MPS or do you have an ozonator?

Actually I keep it at 98 deg. That may be the reason. I just raised it to 99, because its getting a colder outside.

I used MPS once a couple weeks ago, which definitely made a difference in the chlorine usage. After shocking with MPS (1 oz) and Chlorine (13ppm), the FC stayed above 5ppm for like 3 days. Without MPS it drops to 5 in a day or two. So the above routine is just using bleach with temp set at 98. I don't have an Ozonator hooked up either. I guess this is the reason TESTING is so important. Every tub is different.

So would this be a correct statement? As long as there is some FC at least 3-5ppm before your next soak, you are using enough the day before.

Also, is it ok to let it get down to 1ppm while/after soaking?

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Question: Is 5 oz bleach per 1 person/hr a conservative figure? Bleach is so cheap, I'd gladly use more if I thought I needed to. But from my experience it doesn't appear that I do. Comments?

Yes, it's conservative in that it's the highest amount seen to work consistently for all users. Is your hot tub at 104F or is it cooler? The amount of chlorine is related to the amount of sweat. Other than the periodic shock levels, do you use any other oxidizer such as MPS or do you have an ozonator?

Actually I keep it at 98 deg. That may be the reason. I just raised it to 99, because its getting a colder outside.

I used MPS once a couple weeks ago, which definitely made a difference in the chlorine usage. After shocking with MPS (1 oz) and Chlorine (13ppm), the FC stayed above 5ppm for like 3 days. Without MPS it drops to 5 in a day or two. So the above routine is just using bleach with temp set at 98. I don't have an Ozonator hooked up either. I guess this is the reason TESTING is so important. Every tub is different.

So would this be a correct statement? As long as there is some FC at least 3-5ppm before your next soak, you are using enough the day before.

Also, is it ok to let it get down to 1ppm while/after soaking?

Nitro, given the little I know, I am planning on testing the FC level before soaking. If I had a 1ppm before soaking, I'd add dichlor to raise...given our history with bacteria. Sounds like it is common to have the FC level decrease while soaking... as it is effectively sanitizing/being used. After you're done soaking, you can test again after and raise again to kill bacteria until the next time.

Course I'm still learning the ropes. :)

Good luck...

FYI all, I just ordered my Taylor 2006 (nod to chem geek for the good price link) and some Spa System Flush for the biofilms in the plumbing. I am PLANNING on safely soaking on Halloween night!!!

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Actually I keep it at 98 deg. That may be the reason. I just raised it to 99, because its getting a colder outside.

I used MPS once a couple weeks ago, which definitely made a difference in the chlorine usage. After shocking with MPS (1 oz) and Chlorine (13ppm), the FC stayed above 5ppm for like 3 days. Without MPS it drops to 5 in a day or two. So the above routine is just using bleach with temp set at 98. I don't have an Ozonator hooked up either. I guess this is the reason TESTING is so important. Every tub is different.

So would this be a correct statement? As long as there is some FC at least 3-5ppm before your next soak, you are using enough the day before.

Also, is it ok to let it get down to 1ppm while/after soaking?

Yes, I would say that the lower temps are at least part of the reason you use a lot less chlorine. Perhaps you and your lady don't sweat as much generally either. :rolleyes:

Yes, you are correct that as long as you measure some residual FC, at least 1 ppm (using a good FAS-DPD chlorine test kit), before your next soak, then you are using enough chlorine to handle your bather waste and maintaining an FC residual at all times.

As for how much the FC level should be before one soaks, that depends on the amount of sanitation that is desired. Technically, since the ammonia from sweat combines with chlorine almost immediately (in seconds, though urea takes far longer to break down), to completely avoid having any bacteria survive during a soak one would want to have enough FC such that there is measurable FC right after one soaks (i.e. just before adding more chlorine). For the most conservative safety, this would be an FC of 4 ppm with a CYA of 20 ppm. However, this scenario of having a higher chlorine level during soaking usually means smelling chlorine and/or some monochloramine during the soak and many people find that objectionable. So the compromise is to have a low slightly >1 ppm FC just before you soak and then punt on the fact that in the 20-60 minutes during the soak the bacteria (from your skin, bottom, etc.) can only reproduce (double in population) 1-4 times and will then get killed by the chlorine addition right after the soak. Based on user experiences so far, the risk seems fairly low. It wouldn't, however, pass an EPA test for low bacterial counts during the soak which is why N2 and other product instructions have one with a high residual FC (or MPS level) before the soak AND add more product after the soak as well.

Richard

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Actually I keep it at 98 deg. That may be the reason. I just raised it to 99, because its getting a colder outside.

I used MPS once a couple weeks ago, which definitely made a difference in the chlorine usage. After shocking with MPS (1 oz) and Chlorine (13ppm), the FC stayed above 5ppm for like 3 days. Without MPS it drops to 5 in a day or two. So the above routine is just using bleach with temp set at 98. I don't have an Ozonator hooked up either. I guess this is the reason TESTING is so important. Every tub is different.

So would this be a correct statement? As long as there is some FC at least 3-5ppm before your next soak, you are using enough the day before.

Also, is it ok to let it get down to 1ppm while/after soaking?

Yes, I would say that the lower temps are at least part of the reason you use a lot less chlorine. Perhaps you and your lady don't sweat as much generally either. :rolleyes:

Yes, you are correct that as long as you measure some residual FC, at least 1 ppm (using a good FAS-DPD chlorine test kit), before your next soak, then you are using enough chlorine to handle your bather waste and maintaining an FC residual at all times.

As for how much the FC level should be before one soaks, that depends on the amount of sanitation that is desired. Technically, since the ammonia from sweat combines with chlorine almost immediately (in seconds, though urea takes far longer to break down), to completely avoid having any bacteria survive during a soak one would want to have enough FC such that there is measurable FC right after one soaks (i.e. just before adding more chlorine). For the most conservative safety, this would be an FC of 4 ppm with a CYA of 20 ppm. However, this scenario of having a higher chlorine level during soaking usually means smelling chlorine and/or some monochloramine during the soak and many people find that objectionable. So the compromise is to have a low slightly >1 ppm FC just before you soak and then punt on the fact that in the 20-60 minutes during the soak the bacteria (from your skin, bottom, etc.) can only reproduce (double in population) 1-4 times and will then get killed by the chlorine addition right after the soak. Based on user experiences so far, the risk seems fairly low. It wouldn't, however, pass an EPA test for low bacterial counts during the soak which is why N2 and other product instructions have one with a high residual FC (or MPS level) before the soak AND add more product after the soak as well.

Richard

I usually have FC at 5 before we soak (CYA ~30) That's been working out for just us two, because when we get out FC is always >1ppm. With friends it's a different story. I'll start out with 6-8 ppm and an oz or two or three of bleach every hour to keep it above 2. Next time I have friends over I may add MPS before the soak to help out. Hopefully, the tub is safe with this routine.

Thanks again.

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I usually have FC at 5 before we soak (CYA ~30) That's been working out for just us two, because when we get out FC is always >1ppm. With friends it's a different story. I'll start out with 6-8 ppm and an oz or two or three of bleach every hour to keep it above 2. Next time I have friends over I may add MPS before the soak to help out. Hopefully, the tub is safe with this routine.

Thanks again.

I believe the tub would be quite safe with that routine. Do you notice any chlorine or monochloramine smell during your soak? There's nothing really wrong with that, but some people want a chemical-free smell experience during their soak.

As for using MPS, it can irritate people unless the MPS is used in a tub with N2 (specifically, silver ion) since the Potassium Persulfate (aka Peroxydisulfate) that contaminates MPS products (at around 3% by weight) can be irritating, but is rather quickly broken down in the presence of silver ion. Also, the MPS will register as chlorine -- high amounts initially as FC (possibly the peroxydisulfate) and lower amounts over time as CC. So it's harder to judge the level of sanitation when using MPS since you can't as easily distinguish it from chlorine. You can certainly try it and see how it works for you and let us know what you measure.

Richard

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I believe the tub would be quite safe with that routine. Do you notice any chlorine or monochloramine smell during your soak? There's nothing really wrong with that, but some people want a chemical-free smell experience during their soak.

We've had, I believe, a monochloramine smell that wasn't very pleasent a couple times. However that happenned after I had a high bather load day, despite shocking to 13 and entering the tub at 5 the day of our soak. That's when I tried MPS, which seemed to help. Most of the time when it's just us two we don't smell anything, maybe a very slight chlorine smell, especially on our skin, which we happen to like. We feel cleaner after being bleached.

As for using MPS, it can irritate people unless the MPS is used in a tub with N2 (specifically, silver ion) since the Potassium Persulfate (aka Peroxydisulfate) that contaminates MPS products (at around 3% by weight) can be irritating, but is rather quickly broken down in the presence of the silver ion. Also, the MPS will register as chlorine -- high amounts initially as FC (possibly the peroxydisulfate) and lower amounts over time as CC. So it's harder to judge the level of sanitation when using MPS since you can't as easily distinguish it from chlorine. You can certainly try it and see how it works for you and let us know what you measure.

I'll keep that in mind. Maybe I should look into using N2. However, the only reason I might use MPS is to help out on high bather load days.

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My Daughter just got back from dermatologist and bingo... pseudomonas...the tub is less than 3 weeks old and we are off and running like a full time chemist. I have not had any issues yet nor has my wife... but she had what looked like bug bites. As you said , i am glad its not something in the house and hopefully i can work out my chem levels. Why did you have to dump the water? i was hoping to just adjust the PH level as per the Dermatologists recommendation.

First time poster here. I've enjoyed reading on the site for a couple of months now. We've had our Jacuzzi 230 with ozonator and 24 hour circ pump for 2 months. I've read and read and read and asked our hot tub seller for advice on how to monitor the chemicals from the get go. I thought I was doing quite well with all of the readings on my Aquacheck free chlorine test strips looking great EXCEPT the chlorine level barely read anything at all..usually zero. When questioning my seller about that, he said adding a 'capful' of chlorine once a week (sani-chlor, I believe), was sufficient....and that the ozonator would be working to disinfect and would actually break down that chlorine. I found that yes, the chlorine level would indeed drop after a day or two. But I contiuned to follow the plan, chlorine once a week, shock after use and regularly test all the others.

Anyhow, our tub had been a nightly family enjoyment for our family of 4. But, after about a month, our children and my husband had 'bug bites'. Itchy itchy red spots. I thought they were bug bites as the little gnat-like bugs had truly been biting bad in our area over that period of time. It wasn't until my husband showed me the side of his torso and actually, his left breast area that I became concerned. It was a swollen, hot to the touch, fire red, 2 inch sized area. I demanded he go to the doctor first thing in the morning. It was hurting him badly. The side of his torso had nearly 20-30 smaller red spots, but they didn't look angry like his chest did. The doctor tried to drain the hard nodule (thought it was pus filled I guess) that was under the nipple area. I cringed when DH told me, but the dr. cut into it and with not much coming out and not wanting to go deeper, he packed it full of gauze and sent him home with antibiotics and said he'd have to have minor surgery if it didn't improve quickly. It did slightly better after a couple of days and then the dr. called with the results of pseudomonas. The dr. said it was rare...but after researching online, I knew it had to have been from our hot tub. It has completely healed over the course of a good two weeks.

We haven't gone in the tub for about 3 weeks now til I have the time to figure out what to do. I have superchlorinated it many times, and am adjusting all of the levels. Of course my CYA is about 150...way too high. I'm set to drain it anyhow, but am wondering if my process for getting rid of the bacteris is alright...i know those little buggers are hard to kill especially if they hav their slime coating on (FYI, the tub side do not feel slimy what so ever, and the water is currently crystal clear) OK, how does my decontam process look:

superchlorinate to 10ppm with sani-chlor

drain

diluted bleach scrub the entire tub, cover as well.

Rinse all surfaces

refill entire tub

superchlorinate again

drain

fill

bring all levels to correct range

Is this procedure good enough?

And the next question, is adding sanichlor 3x/week to get it up to about 4ppm good enough, or is it just making the CYA too high? I just have trouble keeping the sanitizer up with that ozonator. I think this is when the pseudomonas colonized....the ozonator didn't do squat.

And should I use sanichlor to bring it to 4ppm initially, and then switch to regular bleach be best to keep the CYA in check?

Thanks for your advice. I'm so glad the kids just had the bug bite effect from the pseudomonas, but I'm worried that I won't be able to kill them all and an abcess like my DH's could happen again. It wasn't good. :(

THANKS FOR YOUR THOUGHTS and the time you took to read my saga!! :)

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My Daughter just got back from dermatologist and bingo... pseudomonas...the tub is less than 3 weeks old and we are off and running like a full time chemist. I have not had any issues yet nor has my wife... but she had what looked like bug bites. As you said , i am glad its not something in the house and hopefully i can work out my chem levels. Why did you have to dump the water? i was hoping to just adjust the PH level as per the Dermatologists recommendation.

I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter getting hot tub itch/rash. Can you tell us more about your tub, its size, how many people were using it for how long how many days a week? What sort of sanitizer was used and how much? Is their any supplemental system such as Nature2 or an ozonator? Was there an initial dose of chemicals after adding water for the first time? Do you know what your water chemistry parameters were during those 3 weeks (i.e. Free Chlorine, Combined Chlorine, pH, Total Alkalinity, Calcium Hardness, Cyanuric Acid)? This sort of information can help us figure out what is most critical and help others prevent this from happening.

Richard

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My Daughter just got back from dermatologist and bingo... pseudomonas...the tub is less than 3 weeks old and we are off and running like a full time chemist. I have not had any issues yet nor has my wife... but she had what looked like bug bites. As you said , i am glad its not something in the house and hopefully i can work out my chem levels. Why did you have to dump the water? i was hoping to just adjust the PH level as per the Dermatologists recommendation.

First time poster here. I've enjoyed reading on the site for a couple of months now. We've had our Jacuzzi 230 with ozonator and 24 hour circ pump for 2 months. I've read and read and read and asked our hot tub seller for advice on how to monitor the chemicals from the get go. I thought I was doing quite well with all of the readings on my Aquacheck free chlorine test strips looking great EXCEPT the chlorine level barely read anything at all..usually zero. When questioning my seller about that, he said adding a 'capful' of chlorine once a week (sani-chlor, I believe), was sufficient....and that the ozonator would be working to disinfect and would actually break down that chlorine. I found that yes, the chlorine level would indeed drop after a day or two. But I contiuned to follow the plan, chlorine once a week, shock after use and regularly test all the others.

Anyhow, our tub had been a nightly family enjoyment for our family of 4. But, after about a month, our children and my husband had 'bug bites'. Itchy itchy red spots. I thought they were bug bites as the little gnat-like bugs had truly been biting bad in our area over that period of time. It wasn't until my husband showed me the side of his torso and actually, his left breast area that I became concerned. It was a swollen, hot to the touch, fire red, 2 inch sized area. I demanded he go to the doctor first thing in the morning. It was hurting him badly. The side of his torso had nearly 20-30 smaller red spots, but they didn't look angry like his chest did. The doctor tried to drain the hard nodule (thought it was pus filled I guess) that was under the nipple area. I cringed when DH told me, but the dr. cut into it and with not much coming out and not wanting to go deeper, he packed it full of gauze and sent him home with antibiotics and said he'd have to have minor surgery if it didn't improve quickly. It did slightly better after a couple of days and then the dr. called with the results of pseudomonas. The dr. said it was rare...but after researching online, I knew it had to have been from our hot tub. It has completely healed over the course of a good two weeks.

We haven't gone in the tub for about 3 weeks now til I have the time to figure out what to do. I have superchlorinated it many times, and am adjusting all of the levels. Of course my CYA is about 150...way too high. I'm set to drain it anyhow, but am wondering if my process for getting rid of the bacteris is alright...i know those little buggers are hard to kill especially if they hav their slime coating on (FYI, the tub side do not feel slimy what so ever, and the water is currently crystal clear) OK, how does my decontam process look:

superchlorinate to 10ppm with sani-chlor

drain

diluted bleach scrub the entire tub, cover as well.

Rinse all surfaces

refill entire tub

superchlorinate again

drain

fill

bring all levels to correct range

Is this procedure good enough?

And the next question, is adding sanichlor 3x/week to get it up to about 4ppm good enough, or is it just making the CYA too high? I just have trouble keeping the sanitizer up with that ozonator. I think this is when the pseudomonas colonized....the ozonator didn't do squat.

And should I use sanichlor to bring it to 4ppm initially, and then switch to regular bleach be best to keep the CYA in check?

Thanks for your advice. I'm so glad the kids just had the bug bite effect from the pseudomonas, but I'm worried that I won't be able to kill them all and an abcess like my DH's could happen again. It wasn't good. :(

THANKS FOR YOUR THOUGHTS and the time you took to read my saga!! :)

I see you found my thread twkennedy!!

I am draining the tub completely, because I need to kill the bacteria. Pseudomonas is a bacteria that after not being killed off right away by effective sanitizers like chlorine, can develop a 'slime' coating called a biofilm. It sort of 'protects' them from the chlorine. Once they develop that biofilm, they become hard to kill. Bleach scrubbing to breakdown and sanitize the tub, will breakup their coating and allow the bleach in to penetrate and kill the microbe. It requires scrubbing to get the job done. I'm also going to be using spa system flush to purge out what is in the pipes that I cannot hand scrub.

Again, pH is not the cause of a psuedomona problem, not having adequate amounts of sanitizer (chlroine) is. If your chlorine level fluctuates at all....like mine did....the bacteria can flourish and develop that slime coating. Keep your levels stable.

GOOD LUCK!! and I'm sorry your family has the bug. :(

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here's how I fixed my nasty bacterial problem...it's pretty much exactly Hillbilly Hot Tub's method:

1. Removed filter.

2. Added water to 1/2 inch above fill line

3. Superchlorinated to ~100ppm or so....ALOT of chlorine.. :D Pulled off pillows and let them float in it as well.

4. Cover spa.

5. Circulate water on full jets about 40 minutes, turning on and off every 5-10 minutes.

6. Stop circulation entirely.

7. Poured in 1/2 bottle of spa flush and circulate water on full jets.

8. Stopped jets and used small amounts of Spa Flush on towel to de-scum what built up on the water line of the shell.

9. Drained tub (took awhile) right onto the grass (didn't kill it at all), rinsing sides down.

10. Scrub inside of tub and up over lip of tub, and pillows front and back, with a mixture of about 1:25 bleach to water ratio in a spray bottle, scrubbing with a good amount of pressure with a spa scrubber brush. Took awhile, but I wanted those bacteria DEAD!!

11. Cleaned and sanitized skimmer bag assembly with bleach/water combo.

12. Partially refill, rinsing sides down well, drain.

13. Refill tub.

14. Added new filter. Replaced skimmer bag assembly.

15. Adjust all levels of chlorine, TA, pH, metals, etc.

16. Sprayed spa cover with bleach/water and scrubbed and rinsed. Hopefully that won't ruin it....so far it looks fine.

I also unplugged my ozonator! I am extremely happy with my new stable chlorine level. I may plug it back in at a later date, but I want to really see what is going on with the chlorine level.

We are back to enjoying our tub again....safely!! Thanks for the decontam. procedures!!

B)

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We have just experienced a similar outbreak of skin problems, which I am sure is related to a rather lax approach to spa care (which I am rapidly trying to address). We have had a beautiful cedar tub for about 3 months, and have been using a 3-step bromine system. We are decontaminating tomorrow. A couple of questions:

1. Would there be any difference in decontamination procedures if we were hoping to return to bromine? Can I still use the superchlorination approach to cleaning?

2. What is "spa flush"?

3. Is there any difference in decontamination procedures for a wood tub?

4. When we get back to trying to enjoy the tub...do pH, calcium, and alkalinity have as much influence in bromine-maintained tubs as in chlorinated tubs? I have had trouble keeping my pH above 7.0 and don't know how much this matters. I was considering buying a better test kit, but if I don't need it....

5. I am confused by the chlorine vs. bromine choice in wood tubs. Our manufacturer advised against chlorine. On the other hand, I have noted a post by Dr. Spa in this forum stating that bromine is more damaging than chlorine to wood tubs. Then I went to the Roberts Hot Tub website, and bromine seems to be offered as an environmentally friendly alternative to chlorine. I know that several of my family members have sensitivity to chlorine in pools and was worried about this (though dry cracking skin would be better than pseudomonas itch).

I appreciate any input...we are new to this and humiliated by the bugs we have hatched in our tub. Thanks.

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