Water Chemistry

[turbottt1]

As requested by another member we'll use the forum for this discussion. Lets start with our basic tests. First 450 gal. artic spa with artic ozone.[ set to run 6 times aday. Bromine artic brand [ peak boost] activator litehouse non chlorine shock] results bromine 3/6 ph 7.2 alk. 120. We use a liquid drop test kit. Water perfectly clear] First question::: We shocked the spa last evening with 4 capfulls of bromine followed by 4 capfulls of activator, 2 oz. best defense [ metal conditioner] 1/2 capfull of litehouse brand clarifier. 1 hr. after shocking the spa the bromine is off the scale the ph is below 6.8 water is slightly cloudy. [ added 1 oz. ph up]This morning bromine extremely high, ph 7.2 water still a little cloudy. We opened the lid and exposed to the sun. This afternoon we check the spa bromine will not even register ph 7.2. Added 1 oz. activator and bromine is off the scale again???????? Water is just as clear as it could be. My interest is why would the activator run down my ph???? Second without anybody using the spa why tomorrow morning will we have to add more activator?????? Again all it takes is just a oz. of activator and the bromine is off the scale????? Everyday the pattern continues. FYI The water in the spa is just one week old with only two people in it since the change.

[waterbear]

As requested by another member we'll use the forum for this discussion. Lets start with our basic tests. First 450 gal. artic spa with artic ozone.[ set to run 6 times aday. Bromine artic brand [ peak boost] activator litehouse non chlorine shock] results bromine 3/6 ph 7.2 alk. 120. We use a liquid drop test kit. Water perfectly clear] First question::: We shocked the spa last evening with 4 capfulls of bromine followed by 4 capfulls of activator, 2 oz. best defense [ metal conditioner] 1/2 capfull of litehouse brand clarifier. 1 hr. after shocking the spa the bromine is off the scale the ph is below 6.8 water is slightly cloudy. [ added 1 oz. ph up]This morning bromine extremely high, ph 7.2 water still a little cloudy. We opened the lid and exposed to the sun. This afternoon we check the spa bromine will not even register ph 7.2. Added 1 oz. activator and bromine is off the scale again???????? Water is just as clear as it could be. My interest is why would the activator run down my ph???? Second without anybody using the spa why tomorrow morning will we have to add more activator?????? Again all it takes is just a oz. of activator and the bromine is off the scale????? Everyday the pattern continues. FYI The water in the spa is just one week old with only two people in it since the change.

What is the ingredient in your bromime activator? Is it sodium bromide? That only had to be added initially to supply the bromine bank. Non chlorine shock (MPS) can cause your pH to lower but I don't think that is the problems. Also , what do you mean by the test results bromine 3/6? What test kit are you using (name and model number if applicable)? sounds like there is a lot of sodium bromide in the water if the shock is making your bromine go off the scale. Also your ozonator should be reactivating the bromine while it is running. As far as the bromine disappearing when the spa was uncovered....the sun does burn off bromine....not as fast as it will chlorine but it will burn it off. Sounds like you have been overdosing on the chems. I will see if I can find any info on the brands you are using....not familiar with them.

EDIT: ok, the peak boost is sodium bromide, that should only be added each time you fill the spa at a rate of about 1scant tablespoon per 100 gallons of water. It should not be added again until you drain and reflll the spa. 4 tablespoons should be enough for your spa! I would really recommend shocking with liquid bleach. I would start with about 1/8 cup (2 tablespoons) and see how high that raises the bromine levels. If it does not raise the bromine levels high then go up to 1.4 cup. Also, high sanitizer levels will cause your pH and TA to give false readings so only test them when the bromine level is about 8 ppm or less. Shocking (activating) the bromine will cause it to rise to high levels...that is normal....let the bromine level drop to 6-8 ppm before entering the spa.Hope this is helpful.

[turbottt1]

sorry about the time lag. i just got back home. The phone rings and off I go. Who knows how many days till I get home. To answer some of your questions. We use a hth drop test kit. We purchase at least two every year. Ok I'm looking at the paper our dealer gave us when we purchased our spa for weekly maint. 2 oz. best defense[ metal remover] 4oz. peak boost [ bromine] 4oz. refresh [ activator] [ 2oz. after every use also]adjust ph as needed 1/2 capfull of clarifier. I'm a little confused about the peak boost???? Why would they have me adding it every week if it's only needed at refill time?????? I'm interested in this shocking with liquid bleach. Any special kind ???? One thing I've notice is that we have to drain our spa quite often. [ once a month] Yes we were using it quite a bit but our use has gone way down because of my reaction to the water. [ nasty chem. burn on a 2"x3" spot just above my ankle. [ water effects no one else] Our tds always seems to be high?? I can take a sample and have it tested and they say drain it now, then wait 4 to 5 days take the very same water in and I'm told that draining is not needed??????? I know chemicals add to the tds, but I must admit I'm confused and no one can give me any answer other than I don't know. Fyi ::::: at certain times we have added the activator[ shock] by itself and not changed the readings up or down. My thinking is that we have used all the bromine up and there is nothing left for the activator to search out?????? If we add 1oz. of peak boost the readings rise back up where they should be. Does this seem correct to you???? steve

[waterbear]

sorry about the time lag. i just got back home. The phone rings and off I go. Who knows how many days till I get home. To answer some of your questions. We use a hth drop test kit. We purchase at least two every year. Ok I'm looking at the paper our dealer gave us when we purchased our spa for weekly maint. 2 oz. best defense[ metal remover] 4oz. peak boost [ bromine] 4oz. refresh [ activator] [ 2oz. after every use also]adjust ph as needed 1/2 capfull of clarifier. I'm a little confused about the peak boost???? Why would they have me adding it every week if it's only needed at refill time?????? I'm interested in this shocking with liquid bleach. Any special kind ???? One thing I've notice is that we have to drain our spa quite often. [ once a month] Yes we were using it quite a bit but our use has gone way down because of my reaction to the water. [ nasty chem. burn on a 2"x3" spot just above my ankle. [ water effects no one else] Our tds always seems to be high?? I can take a sample and have it tested and they say drain it now, then wait 4 to 5 days take the very same water in and I'm told that draining is not needed??????? I know chemicals add to the tds, but I must admit I'm confused and no one can give me any answer other than I don't know. Fyi ::::: at certain times we have added the activator[ shock] by itself and not changed the readings up or down. My thinking is that we have used all the bromine up and there is nothing left for the activator to search out?????? If we add 1oz. of peak boost the readings rise back up where they should be. Does this seem correct to you???? steve

Ok, found some more info on peak boost. It is sodium bromide and dichlor! I don't like combination products like this. find plain sodium bromde and just use bleach to activate it and shock. (plain unscented laundry bleach. The biggest problem I can see with the peak boost is your bromine reserve will soon rise to very high levels.

[turbottt1]

I spent the better part of 2 hours at our artic dealer today. Some interesting info. First on the bottle of peak boost it states add 2oz. per 250 gal. of water per week. I asked for sodium bromide and everyone looked at me funny. After checking some of the other brands there it was. Some stated as high as 56%. These products also had weekly amount that you needed to add to your water. I also found out that capo industries is the producers of artic pure products. I got the phone number and will make the call monday. If I understood right the bromine is used to kill bacteria and the shock is used to control human contaminates. Each product alone will do nothing that in fact it takes both a bromine and activator to make this system work. I also stopped at our local litehouse pools dealer and asked the same question. They handed me some bromine tablets and I asked are you sure this is sodium bromine. Answer yes. I then asked why does it say on the bottles of each of your products that after you refill your spa add 1 teaspoon of sodium bromide to 100 gal. of your water before using this product. I got the same funny look. So we looked a little farther and discovered that they do not sell just sodium bromide. Unless I am not understanding this right, sodium bromide is really rock salt?????? Can you tell us a direction in which we might locate just s. bromide. I would be interested in trying this system with the bleach. Also at our dealer they suggested maybe trying a three part system by leisure time??? Do you know anything about this product. The last suggestion was taking our pool water and filling our spa and using the same chemicals for both. [ sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione???? Bottom line I've got to find a product or a system that does not effect me and does a good job keeping our spa clean and sanitized. fyi::; the water effects nobody else in our family or any friends that have used it , but to me it just eats my skin up. Thanks for all info. and suggestions. steve

[waterbear]

I spent the better part of 2 hours at our artic dealer today. Some interesting info. First on the bottle of peak boost it states add 2oz. per 250 gal. of water per week. I asked for sodium bromide and everyone looked at me funny. After checking some of the other brands there it was. Some stated as high as 56%. These products also had weekly amount that you needed to add to your water. I also found out that capo industries is the producers of artic pure products. I got the phone number and will make the call monday. If I understood right the bromine is used to kill bacteria and the shock is used to control human contaminates. Each product alone will do nothing that in fact it takes both a bromine and activator to make this system work. I also stopped at our local litehouse pools dealer and asked the same question. They handed me some bromine tablets and I asked are you sure this is sodium bromine. Answer yes. I then asked why does it say on the bottles of each of your products that after you refill your spa add 1 teaspoon of sodium bromide to 100 gal. of your water before using this product. I got the same funny look. So we looked a little farther and discovered that they do not sell just sodium bromide. Unless I am not understanding this right, sodium bromide is really rock salt?????? Can you tell us a direction in which we might locate just s. bromide. I would be interested in trying this system with the bleach. Also at our dealer they suggested maybe trying a three part system by leisure time??? Do you know anything about this product. The last suggestion was taking our pool water and filling our spa and using the same chemicals for both. [ sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione???? Bottom line I've got to find a product or a system that does not effect me and does a good job keeping our spa clean and sanitized. fyi::; the water effects nobody else in our family or any friends that have used it , but to me it just eats my skin up. Thanks for all info. and suggestions. steve

You can get sodium bromde from HTH , Proteam,and Leisure Time just to mention a few. It usually comes in little packets and larger containers.

. Sodium bromide is NOT rock salt (sodium chloride)...it is sodium bromide

2 part bromine system....sodium bromide on fill and oxizider

3 part bromine system sodium bromide on fill, oxizider, and tabs in floater.

It's really pretty easy...problem is most spa dealers are idiots when it comes to water chemisty and don't have a clue!

Suitable oxidizers are chloine (usually liquid....aka laundry bleach!, dichlor granuales (dichloro-s-triazinetrione) , MPS (postasium monopersufate....non chlorine shock) and ozone.

Keep pH between 7.4 and 8.0

bromine 6-8 ppm

ALK 80-150

calcium hardness > 150 ppm (but below 300 so you don't get scaling in the heater

shock (oxidizer) when bromine levels are low

shock after each use

not rocket science!

Hypobromous acid is the santizer....bromine ions in the water from the sodium bromide are converted into hypobromous acid when you add the oxidizer. In a bromine spa you don't worry about the bromamines since they are also effective sanitzers....sounds like someone gave you info that they confused with chlorine chemisty.

IF I am not mistaken the Leisure Time 3 part system is biguinide! (same as baqua and revacil)

Here is a link that might prove helpful (but they ARE trying to sell their products)

http://www.rhtubs.com/store/proNcon.htm

Chlorine is also an effective spa sanitizer. Dichlor granuals are all that you need....shock with dichlor or bleach.

[waterbear]

I realize this is getting confusing...let me give you an easy bromine recipe....

On fill balance water the put sodium bromide in...shock with 1 cup bleach....

put floater with bromine tablets in spa..adust floater so bromine level stays about 6 ppm.....

shock with 1 cup bleach weekly and after heavy use

don't enter spa after shocking until bromine level drops to 6 ppm

drain and refill every 1-3 months depending on use

keep other paramters balanced

GET A GOOD DROP BASED TEST KIT SUCH AS ONE FROM TAYLOR TECHNOLOGIES FOR TESTING WATER. The k-2106 complete bromine test kit is a good one

http://www.taylortechnologies.com/products...&KitID=2232

The tablets will help maintain a more constant bromine level in the water.

[turbottt1]

Thanks for the info. We will give it a shot. One last question. How reliable are the aqua check test strips for tds???? I see taylor has a electronic one [ k-6140] and I have been told that to get a true reading you must use a meter type????? Everyone who checks water around here uses these strips and it seems like we are changing water way to often. [ Longest period has been 30 days] steve

I should of added that I can understand changing it often when the weather is cold because we use it very often, but since the pool has opened we only use it 3-4 times a week.steve

[waterbear]

Thanks for the info. We will give it a shot. One last question. How reliable are the aqua check test strips for tds???? I see taylor has a electronic one [ k-6140] and I have been told that to get a true reading you must use a meter type????? Everyone who checks water around here uses these strips and it seems like we are changing water way to often. [ Longest period has been 30 days] steve

I should of added that I can understand changing it often when the weather is cold because we use it very often, but since the pool has opened we only use it 3-4 times a week.steve

Don't worry about TDS....it 's a bogus measurement! Strips are usless for it! You need a meter like a MyronL (this is what Taylor sells) to test it. Just drain and refill every 3 months and you will be fine!

[turbottt1]

thanks for the info. on tds. After they test the water the first thing they say is I bet your water is very cloudy and smells bad. I keep telling them thats the water is very clear and smells just like the first day we filled it. Again there were the funny looks. It might seem strange, but we can look and feel the water and pretty much tell if it's used up. With this cycle of water we have at least in the short term quite using the peak boost and just shock the water as needed. I want to see how long it will register bromine readings. Again thank you. steve

[Canadian Kahuna]

thanks for the info. on tds. After they test the water the first thing they say is I bet your water is very cloudy and smells bad. I keep telling them thats the water is very clear and smells just like the first day we filled it. Again there were the funny looks. It might seem strange, but we can look and feel the water and pretty much tell if it's used up. With this cycle of water we have at least in the short term quite using the peak boost and just shock the water as needed. I want to see how long it will register bromine readings. Again thank you. steve

Hey . . . just wanted to add that i have an arctic and use the arctic brand chemicals as well (bromine). Basically, when i do a fill, i add "Bromine Booster" . . . this is to establish your bromide reserve and should only be used when you first fill it. After this, and your original shock to establish your bromine residual, you should not need to add Peak Boost if you use a floater with the bromine tablets and have it set correctly, so that your readings are about 3 - 5 ppm bromine. I have the Cub model, keep my floater set at about 4 1/2 and find it regulates nicely, two of us use the spa about 4 times a week average, and daily during winter. I regularly shock twice a week (usually Friday and Monday, mainly because heaviest usage is on weekends, and as well on fridays i add my best defence, on monday i add the easy clear and ultra spa). You may have to occasionally bring your pH up using adjust up (use sparingly) and with bromine you will probably find you have to raise your TA a fair amount (Arctic has "Perfect Balance" but baking soda is cheaper and works just as well, if not better i've found), other than this i have had no real problems. I use the "Refresh" to shock with, btw. Basically, these are the instructions given to me by my dealer and i haven't had a single problem, and the only other thing my dealer recommended was a "Zorbie" or "Scumball" . . . which i got and it keeps my water a lot cleaner (compared to first few months i didn't have one). I also have the "Peak Boost" but very seldomly use it, only when i've had a large number of bathers and find my bromine has drastically dropped. Otherwise, i'll place a bromine tablet right in the filter basket, do a good shock on my tub and my bromine levels are back in the normal 3 - 5ppm range. Hope this helps with your dilema a little.

[turbottt1]

I agree with you. As instructed by our dealer. We are to add 4 oz. peak boost, 4 oz. refresh, 1-2oz. best defense, 1/2 clarifier each and every week???? We have stopped using the peak and put in one oz. of the refresh after every use and we shock the water once a week with 4oz. of refresh. We do not have a floater, but I will check into this. I really think that the sodium bromide levels are so high in the tub that it might be causing most of our problems. I look forward to dumping our water and trying something that might be a lot sinpler. thank you. steve

[turbottt1]

It's been 13 days without using the peak boost. Water looks great, smells great and no complaints from the peanut gallery. [ except me] jumped in the other night.[ aprox. 35 min.] this time it took 48 hrs. for the skin reaction. Not quite as bad as before , but to the normal person it would be nasty. bromine level is staying pretty much even, no change in the ph, but our alky. seems to drop off quite a bit???? We shock with 1oz. activator after every use and 3oz. actvator once a week. No floater. The spa seems to like it, I know my pocket book does because other than bringing the akly. up we have not used any other chemicals. Which is a first. steve

Test results

hth drop test kit. [ taylor k-2006 on the way]

bromine: 3ppm

ph: 7.2/7.5 range

alky: average 60ppm [ we have to bump it up to around 100ppm]

tds:: bogus

[waterbear]

It's been 13 days without using the peak boost. Water looks great, smells great and no complaints from the peanut gallery. [ except me] jumped in the other night.[ aprox. 35 min.] this time it took 48 hrs. for the skin reaction. Not quite as bad as before , but to the normal person it would be nasty. bromine level is staying pretty much even, no change in the ph, but our alky. seems to drop off quite a bit???? We shock with 1oz. activator after every use and 3oz. actvator once a week. No floater. The spa seems to like it, I know my pocket book does because other than bringing the akly. up we have not used any other chemicals. Which is a first. steve

Test results

hth drop test kit. [ taylor k-2006 on the way]

bromine: 3ppm

ph: 7.2/7.5 range

alky: average 60ppm [ we have to bump it up to around 100ppm]

tds:: bogus

Keeping up the alkalinity in a spa is alway a challange because the constant aeration is what is causing it to always fall!

[turbottt1]

I called capo industries today and talked to their chemist. [ they are the makers of the artic pure products]

waterbear you were spot on. Yes the peak boost does contain sodium bromide and is used as our bromine bank. steve

[waterbear]

I called capo industries today and talked to their chemist. [ they are the makers of the artic pure products]

waterbear you were spot on. Yes the peak boost does contain sodium bromide and is used as our bromine bank. steve

Thanks for the validation!