Aqua Finesse

[coert]

Been browsing this forum for info on above mentioned topic.... Seems you people are talking about pretty much everything but this. What are the expiriences with Aqua Finesse? Pros, cons, do'es and don'ts?

[chem geek]

[EDIT] See this link at the end of this thread for an update. [END-EDIT]

From their FAQ page (here then click on the "Support" tab) and this page that gives some history of the product use in spas before being used in industry, it sounds like this is a combination of chemicals to prevent or breakup biofilms (probably enzymes) plus water softener (perhaps borates), calcium reducers (perhaps metal sequestrant) and clarifiers (to help the filter remove undissolved organics). There do not appear to be any oxidizers in the product so it's not clear what happens to all the urea and ammonia from sweat unless you have an ozone system (perhaps some enzymes break them down). They also mention how NSPI recommends 1.5 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) to be used.

If you click on the "KEMA Test Results" page you will notice that the test measurements are made 24 hours and 48 hours after addition of bacteria and nutrients. A significant reduction in bacteria is seen, but it's not fast.

My best guess is that the clarifier that is used is similar to PolyQuat which is not only an algaecide, but is also a clarifier and a slow-acting bactericide. The thing about enzymes helping to prevent biofilm formation still needs some sort of oxidizer to do the work (enzymes just speed up specific chemical reactions -- they don't actually do the work of the reaction) and I'm not so sure that dissolved oxygen would be enough (i.e. chlorine might be needed). It's just not fast enough to be called a disinfectant and wouldn't kill bacteria fast enough to prevent possible person-to-person transmission. That's the theory, but read the negative review linked below of a user who developed hot tub lung when using this system.

On this forum, this post has a positive review of Aqua Finesse, while this post has a negative review.

If such a system were to be used, then it appears that some form of oxidizer is needed to keep the water clear -- either an ozonator or chlorine or MPS addition. For faster disinfection, some additional system would be needed such as silver/copper metal ions (e.g. Nature2) to be faster or chlorine/bromine/PHMB to be fast enough to be a disinfectant per EPA guidelines.

Richard

[coert]

Thankyou Richard! I read your suggested pros and cons and decided to take the plunge.... I'll post my findings here in the coming weeks and would appreciate your continuing feedback.

regards,

Coert

[chem geek]

Thankyou Richard! I read your suggested pros and cons and decided to take the plunge.... I'll post my findings here in the coming weeks and would appreciate your continuing feedback.

regards,

Coert

I am not making any sort of recommendation. Just keep in mind that their system by itself does not provide fast (i.e. chlorine speed) nor moderate (i.e. silver ion speed) disinfection and that they refer to the NSPI recommendation of using 1.5 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) which would seem to defeat the "non-chlorine" idea behind this product. Does your spa have an ozonator? Do you use Nature2 or other silver/copper ion system? Note from their testimonials that the water may be cloudy initially (and that's also what Loumart reported in the negative review link in my post before he got hot tub lung after using this system -- hot tub lung is caused by the bacterium Mycobacterium avium).

On a side note, many websites referring to hot tub lung quote the following: "According to the CDC, water temperatures above 84 degrees make chlorine lose most of its disinfectant properties." Interestingly, I cannot find this specific info on the CDC website itself. Furthermore, it is very misleading since it makes it sound like something terrible happens all of a sudden above 84F. The reality is that volatile chemicals outgas faster at higher temperatures and that is just as true with chlorine (mostly hypochlorous acid; chlorine gas is in much smaller concentrations and is rate limited) as with other volatile chemicals, but is also why bromine is often used in hot tubs since it is (apparently) less volatile. There is also no discussion of how using CYA reduces hypochlorous acid levels and therefore the rate of chlorine loss due to outgassing. Also, the loss of chlorine is due at least as much to aeration as to higher temperature. The point these websites are making is that if one does not watch their chlorine levels, then they can get to zero and the water no longer be disinfected thereby allowing bacteria to grow.

[coert]

Hello Richard,

Your neutrality is clear and your advice much appreciated.

I have a D1 Wayfarer (with ozonator) which we use at least three times a week. We get into the tub "clean", showering (outdoors) before entering. I have the tub set to filter three times a day for 60 minutes.

I admire your insight as to the tub chemistry however I do not aspire to know more than needed to maintain an clean and healthy tub for my family. Especially because we often use the tub after a few rounds in the sauna.

I had been wrestling with the chems for some weeks after an initial six month period of balance. My dealer offerd (at no cost) the Aqu-Finesse as a solution to my desire to keep the tub clean with as low a clorine level as possible.... I figured I'd try it out for three months.

I drained the tub last Sunday, cleaned the liner, changed the filter, refilled and zapped the water with A-F.

Since then the water has been crystal clear, aromatic and the liner feels squeaky-clean. Only the scum-duck was a little dirty in the first days but this is also now reduced to a neglegable level. After each use I "dope" the water with a tad more than the advised teaspoon of chlorine.

I'm interested to see how the filter looks on Sunday.

What I normally do but have not done this past week is religously measure TA, clorine and pH levels. I thought I'd let it ride for a week..... just feel the tub again as it were. The tub feels good.

I understand that we want to try and keep a chlorine level of or about 1.5ppm, however, I don't see a pH level or anything about it's maintanance in the A-F literature. I'm looking forward to your thoughts on this last point.

I will in any case let you know how this story develops.

kind regards,

Coert

[chem geek]

According to Aqua Finesse, you won't need to make adjustments using other chemicals, but I don't see how they are going to control the pH so I'd at least take a look at that. The other water parameters should be as you normally would have them -- you usually don't need to worry about Calcium Hardness (CH) once that's set properly (i.e. having some) since it won't change until the next refill. Total Alkalinity (TA) might drop over time so if it gets very low then some baking soda can bring that back up. So it's really pH that's the only thing to look at more closely since it can change more quickly. It will be interesting to see if Aqua Finesse keeps the pH stable.

Richard

[coert]

... Spoke with Aqua Finesse representative in Veenendaal (NL) this morning. According to him a pH up and around the 8 is normal.

As far chlorine question is concerned he explained that A-F makes it impossible for bacteria etc. to deposit itself onto tub walls or plumbing (and continue to grow out of reach of conventional chems). This is why the tub lining, even the "bucket seats", feel squeeky-clean.

A-F, the rep. told me, as a matter of fact "contains" bacteria without killing it, eventually depositing a fine sludge into the filter.

Thereby is a proper weekly filter maintanance and a functioning ozonater a must.

Also, the rep. described the 1.5ppm chlorine as a EU regulated minimum but expressed that this level does not have to be maintained. I summerised by calling the teaspoon of di-chlor after the soak a mini-shock to zap the sludge-trapped bacteria.

He said that's what is basically is and to make sure I dose over the filter for good effect.

As of today we have been using Aqua Finesse for two weeks and we have good smelling, wonderfully clear and soft feeling water....

The A-F rep. told me that this product requires a different mindset because it is so different from traditional water maintanance.

Richard, I am still interested in your thoughts on the matter.

regards,

Coert

[chem geek]

Coert,

At least adding some Dichlor after you soak will kill bacteria that you shed during the soak. That sounds more sanitary than the procedure LouMart used as described here where it sounded like chlorine was only used for shocking to get rid of cloudiness that would occur. Remember that he got hot tub lung (diagnosed by a doctor) so your adding some chlorine after each soak will hopefully prevent any problems. My assumption is that the lack of regular chlorine use led to uncontrolled (Mycobacterium avium) bacteria growth, in spite of what the Aqua Finesse folks told you about their system being sanitary without chlorine.

Interestingly, this link says that Aqua Finesse contains trace amounts of Trichlor which is, of course, chlorine.

As for the pH of 8 being normal, they probably get away with that due to having the Calcium Hardness (CH) lower since it sounds like they have some sort of calcium reducer or sequestrant as part of the product.

Richard

[tony]

Coert,

At least adding some Dichlor after you soak will kill bacteria that you shed during the soak. That sounds more sanitary than the procedure LouMart used as described here where it sounded like chlorine was only used for shocking to get rid of cloudiness that would occur. Remember that he got hot tub lung (diagnosed by a doctor) so your adding some chlorine after each soak will hopefully prevent any problems. My assumption is that the lack of regular chlorine use led to uncontrolled (Mycobacterium avium) bacteria growth, in spite of what the Aqua Finesse folks told you about their system being sanitary without chlorine.

Interestingly, this link says that Aqua Finesse contains trace amounts of Trichlor which is, of course, chlorine.

As for the pH of 8 being normal, they probably get away with that due to having the Calcium Hardness (CH) lower since it sounds like they have some sort of calcium reducer or sequestrant as part of the product.

Richard

Weekly filter cleaning and normal pH of 8 are pretty standard for enzyme systems, the more popular being Eco One and The Natural. AF seems to be this also.

[gunner12]

AquaFinesse is not an enzyme, I asked my dealer about that. He said it is not, then I e mail Aquafinesse and they said it was not. They said the program I have been doing for the last 18 months was fine. I use aquafinesse once a week, shock with 1/2 teaspoon chlorine and i have an ozonator. My water stays great and the tub stays clean. You can feel the soft water and it smells great. No more after tub showers. We have had all of our freinds switch to it. Try it and you will love it.

[chem geek]

I got a PM from Steve Sweeney about Aqua Finesse (I believe he works for them) and I called him and talked to him a while. He said that the core component is not an enzyme but a combination of natural salts that significantly reduce both existing biofilms and inhibit biofilm formation. Such salts do not include phosphates but my guess is that they include some borates since Aqua Finesse helps stabilize pH. By itself, Aqua Finesse is not a sanitizer nor an oxidizer, but it is often sold in kits that have chlorine, usually Dichlor or Trichlor.

So assuming that his information is correct about the effectiveness of breaking up biofilms, the core product can be seen as an adjunct or insurance for breaking up or preventing biofilms. Technically, if one maintains proper chlorine levels (relative to CYA) at all times, biofilms should not form to a great extent (the free-floating bacteria get killed very quickly), but most hot tub users let the chlorine get low to zero during the soak so use of this product may be helpful, but does NOT replace the use of a fast-acting sanitizer.

In the case of gunner12, the ozonator oxidizes bather contaminants (ammonia and urea from sweat and urine) while the small amount of chlorine kills free-floating bacteria and viruses, but only shortly after addition since so little is used (it's only added once a week). The Aqua Finesse prevents biofilm formation. So the main issue of shocking with chlorine only once a week is the bacterial growth that can occur in the interim especially when soaking. So person-to-person transmission would be the main risk while uncontrolled bacterial growth is at least somewhat inhibited between the ozonator and the biofilm prevention from Aqua Finesse. The Aqua Finesse website has this link to a report implying inhibition of bacterial growth though not anything like the rate of kill of a regular sanitizer such as chlorine. The bottom line is that to be safe one should have a residual of a fast-acting sanitizer at all times.

Though some are pleased with their use of this product, this case makes me very wary of not having a chlorine residual in the water at all times.

Richard

[beernut]

So assuming that his information is correct about the effectiveness of breaking up biofilms, the core product can be seen as an adjunct or insurance for breaking up or preventing biofilms. Technically, if one maintains proper chlorine levels (relative to CYA) at all times, biofilms should not form to a great extent (the free-floating bacteria get killed very quickly), but most hot tub users let the chlorine get low to zero during the soak so use of this product may be helpful, but does NOT replace the use of a fast-acting sanitizer.

Ok, so for those of us who know that we will become one of those who lets the sanitizer level drop and who won't (for whatever reasons) be testing their water daily if even weekly, can aquafinesse be a "insurance policy" if supplimented with something else?

Basically what I am interested in is what is a decent procedure for those of us for whom the chemical costs are a non-issue but time dedicated to testing/checking is.

From my limited research here is a plan that I have developed (but have not yet implimented). Use aquafinesse in conjunction with an ozonator and a copper ion sanitizer (the one I have now is called blue juice but they all seem very similar). The chlorine tablet in the filter area (apparently included with the kits) should keep the residual chorine level to about 1-2 ppm. I would also "dope" after usage with a tsp of chlorine.

In my limited understanding the ozone and copper combined with the aquafinesse would keep everthing inorder between uses and the chlorine dope would kill off everying added during the soak. Although I guess that this might work even without the aquafinesse.

Any thoughts or ideas for those of us who will not test daily?

Mark

[beernut]

I would also "dope" after usage with a tsp of chlorine.

On second thought, would a bigger hit of dichlor (say 1Tbsp or so for 350gal) after each soak with the jets on high and the cover off for 20-30min be an even better idea.

Mark

[Nitro]

I've been in this industry for over 18 years... teach water chemistry, train dealers and store owners....

Now...I 've switched and my hot tub water is over 12 months old... and for those who think they know it all... here are my test results:

PH. 7.5

alkalinity:120

Calcium levels of 250 and NO DEPOSITS WHATSOEVER on my jets, heater.

Chlorine 1.5

Total chlorine: 1.5

TDS: 1500

Just curious. How is your Calcium level 250 (which is on the high side) if this product removes Calcium? I would think after a year without changing your water, your Calcium would be near zero.

[chem geek]

Yes, please answer how after reducing calcium you measured a (Calcium Hardness) CH of 250 ppm. Were you saying that BEFORE you used AquaFinesse the CH was that high and that after using it you had no deposits? What was the CH after using the AquaFinesse? Are you sure you are measuring Calcium Hardness and not Total Hardness (which includes magnesium as well as calcium) after using AquaFinesse? The Hot Tub Startup Procedure on your website indicates that if your CH is over 200, then you must use a stain and scale control (i.e. metal sequestrant for calcium).

Your description of the product reducing calcium levels and initially clouding because of this implies the use of a phosphate buffer and that would explain how pH is stabilized. Why didn't you just say that? On your website you claim that your product is the only one to reduce calcium buildup, but any phosphate buffer system will do that -- calcium phosphate is not very soluble -- as will most scale control products (calcium sequestrants).

The claim is that your product reduces chlorine demand by inhibiting biofilm formation and some bacterial growth, however most chlorine demand is not due to fighting bacteria but rather from oxidation of bather waste (urea and ammonia from sweat and urine). AquaFinesse makes no claims as to oxidizing such bather waste so chlorine demand won't actually be reduced by very much. One person-hour of soaking (so two people for 30 minutes, for example) at hot temperatures (100-104F) needs around 7 ppm FC in 350 gallons to oxidize the bather waste. You either need chlorine or a non-chlorine shock (e.g. MPS) to do this. I'm not talking about oils or lotions or other items that could get filtered out, but rather ammonia/urea from sweat/urine -- how are you taking care of that?

You also talk about a chlorine tablet in a slow release dispenser, but you don't say what it is. Is it Trichlor since that is the only slow-releasing chlorine tablet and generally it isn't used in spas due to its acidity and dissolving too quickly in hot temperatures? Is your claim that the one chlorine tablet is sufficient independent of how many people soak in the tub? If Trichlor pucks are being used for chlorine, then AquaFinesse probably has sodium bicarbonate in it to maintain a higher TA level to help offset the acidity from the Trichlor (the outgassing of carbon dioxide raises the pH, compensating for the lowering of pH from Trichlor so the pH is more stable -- plus the phosphate buffer has the pH move very little anyway).

So the pros of using AquaFinesse are that you get a combination of a phosphate buffer, clarifier (mineral-based?), and baking soda plus a reduction in biofilm formation all in one convenient dosing package. With the relatively low amount of chlorine normally present, the main problem would be heavier use (i.e. daily, especially with 2 or more people). Without sufficient oxidizer, the amount of ammonia/urea would build up and any chlorine present would combine with ammonia to form monochloramine. This would tend to smell so according to your instructions when this happens you need to add more chlorine, such as Dichlor that you recommend. Why not just have people dose some additional chlorine after each soak, if the bather load is higher? Or at least have them measure the Free Chlorine (FC) so when it gets closer to zero they add more chlorine to prevent the smell BEFORE it occurs.

Richard

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Also, if you are using di-chlor or tri-chlor, and only changing water every 9 months, how do you address the CYA.

As a service company I also would not have a customer ever put a puck or tablet in the filter. This water goes right to the heaters/pumps without mixing with the larger body of water.

As a dealer, you saying we dont want to sell it because we lose sales is not true. I sell what is best for our customers and what they want. I will not sell anything I have not tried personally and found to work. I refuse to sell Biguinades, I find they have to many bad issues that out weigh the good. I have tried Eco one, I had cloudy smelly water with the low chlorine amount they had us puttin in. I tried the natural, thei one did ok for about 2 months, although we had to use more chlorine than was said. We had to drain after that time because our son used the tun while he had MRSA and we drained for precaution. We did not get the full time to expirement with it. I will say my CYA was getting high anyway.

I have never tried your product, so i have no opinion to if it works, but there are questions to be answered, scientific ones. It is not that we don't want to sell the product. Also, I just had a bunch of water chemistry classes in AC, and they were very clear with us that the "natural" systems out there do need to keep a risdual, and that the risdual should be higher if guests are using the spa.

[Nitro]

I'm bumping this thread because there has been some recent talk about AquaFinesse.

Here's my opinion on it. AquaFinesse is nothing more than a Spa Flush, Purge etc. that you add to the tub before refilling to clean the plumbing. There is nothing wrong with that, but remember it is NOT a sanitizer by itself. You still need to use Chlorine to kill and oxidize bacteria/waste. (i.e. it's NOT Chemical Free) Don't think just because your pipes are clean you can keep a lower Free Chlorine level while soaking. All it means is your Chlorine Demand is low, and you won't need to add as much Chlorine to keep the level up. But as Check Chem mentioned above, most of the work goes to oxidizing waste, not killing bacteria.

HOWEVER, if you use enough chlorine, your tub will not form biofilm, and your pipes will stay clean (i.e. low CD). My recommendation is to use plenty of chlorine (or bromine), and clean your pipes once or twice a year with Spa Flush/Purge etc. If you do this you won't need to use AquaFinesse on a continuous basis, which isn't exactly cheap.

Bottom line: the less sanitizer (chlorine/bromine) you have in the tub during soaking, the riskier it is. Nature2 (Silver Ion's and MPS) is the only possible exception at this time. But IMO you still need some Chlorine, especially during high bather loads.

Be safe.

[Chemical Intolerant]

From what I understand, Aquafinesse enzymes keep the water clean, but a sanitizer is still required to control bacteria. Aquafinesse seems to do the same thing that Spa Marvel does but Spa Marvel is one third the price and will last longer than Aquafinesse. I think I saw Aquafinnesse going for $150 whereas Spa Marvel is $49.95 for a 3 month treatment.

[AquaFinesseOne]

AquaFinesse is not an enzyme; it is an all-natural product that not only removes the bio film that grows in tub it softens the feel of the water. By using AquaFinesse and breaking down the growth of bacteria you will be able to reduce your chlorine use by up to 80%. Most tubs use 1 teaspoon of dichlor a week and the tub stays in balance much longer. Not only do you reduce time you save in long run by not having to use all of the other products like anti foam, clarifiers and so on. It is much more than just an enzyme. Just so you know it is used now by 6 tub lines. The reason they use it is simple it does what it says it will do. It takes just one minute, one time per week, to keep your water crystal clear and silky soft. Its patented formula is all-natural, so it's better for the environment. Plus, AquaFinesse significantly reduces your need for harsh chemicals. You'll see the difference. And you'll feel the difference. It breaks down old calcium build up off plumbing and jets. It keeps the calcium off the heater elements also. The tub will stay cleaner inside. It is Kema, Montana State, and Lab Dervo tested. It is a NSF 60 product used in the food industry and it is used in the European medical industry also.

The Spa Clean Puck is a spa purge that is use to clean out all of the biofilm and build up in the lines. There are no soaps in our product like some others. That is why the largest jetted tub company in Europe uses and recommends our product for all of their customers to use in their jetted tubs.

FACT:

Did you know that 99% of all bacteria live in the Biofilm,

just 1% actually live in the water itself and it is only these so called 'free floating' bacteria that we are able to kill with traditional sanitizer's such as chlorine or bromine!! Chlorine and bromine in normal levels do nothing to biofilm.

[quantumchromodynamics]

Is Aqua Finesse EDTA? If not, then what is it?

[chem geek]

FACT:

Did you know that 99% of all bacteria live in the Biofilm,

just 1% actually live in the water itself and it is only these so called 'free floating' bacteria that we are able to kill with traditional sanitizer's such as chlorine or bromine!! Chlorine and bromine in normal levels do nothing to biofilm.

Your facts are about bacteria that have made their way to spa surfaces and reproduced sufficiently to produce a significant slime layer. However, newly introduced bacteria (as well as viruses an protozoan oocysts) in a tub comes from skin, mucous, fecal matter, etc. and has not formed significant biofilms though may be somewhat clumped. It is at this mainly planktonic stage where chlorine DOES kill such bacteria and it does so before it is able to form biofilms. So while it is critically important not to let the chlorine level drop towards zero for too long (a few hours), maintaining proper chlorine levels will prevent biofilm formation by killing bacteria before they attach to surfaces and reproduce enough to form biofilm.

If this were not the case, then properly maintained chlorine spas would 1) develop biofilms on surfaces and get slimy, 2) have fairly rapidly increasing chlorine demand over time (more so than accounted for by a buildup of organics over many months) and 3) have many more reports of hot tub itch/rash/lung in spite of properly maintained chlorinated spas. None of this happens because chlorine DOES work.

Now it is true that one must remove any already existing biofilm such as with new spas where a wet test leaves some water in the spa. So using a chlorine decontamination procedure and/or Spa System Flush to remove such biofilms is useful to do, but once that is done then a regular chlorine regimen can prevent any subsequent biofilm formation, especially when using the Dichlor-then-bleach method that does not have the active chlorine concentration lowered over time as is the case with Dichlor-only due to the buildup of Cyanuric Acid (CYA).

AquaFinesse used by itself without chlorine is NOT an EPA approved disinfectant and does NOT pass EPA DIS/TSS-12 which is used for spa testing as well as pools. FIFRA rules explicitly state that you can not make bacteridal, disinfection, sanitizing, or similar claims with your product since it is not a registered pesticide and even for registered pesticides they must be registered disinfectants passing EPA DIS/TSS-12 to make such claims for use in pools and spas (as opposed to some registered pesticides such as copper ion products that are registered as algaecides, but not as disinfectants).

[Thumbsie]

I have been using AquaFinesse for about 3 months now. Not sure what to think. The routine with this stuff is to add a certain amount of this white liquid once a week (based on tub size), clean the filter once a week and keep a chlorine tab in a small dispenser that is provided with the kit. The dispenser holds exactly one tab and has a couple small holes in it to allow the tab to dissolve at a fixed rate.

Here ius my experience so far:

1) The sales guy at the spa dealer flat out lied. He told me it is very popular in Europe and that it works by coating the tub and carrying the bacteria to the filter blah blah. He said it doesn't NEED any sanitizer at all but by law is sold with a sanitizer in North America because here it can't be sold as a spa care package legally unless it includes a sanitizer. In my experience it doesn't work without a sanitizer AT ALL and the tub will very quickly become polluted unless the sanitizer is in there at all times.

2) It doesn't come with enough sanitizer in the package. I bought the package with 5 months worth of the liquid and a small bottle of chlorine tabs. The tabs go in a small dispenser that sit in the skimmer basket. The tabs only last 3 months. I would think for $150 you would get enough tabs to last the life of the package. I asked the dealer about this and he said I should be going through 1 tab a week. I was going through two. I told him I could not control the rate at which the tabs get used up because the dispenser has a fixed hole. Again he said I should be using 1 tab a week but had no suggestion as to how to slow down the chlorine usage.

3) 3 times in the first 3 weeks my water turned green despite the fact that I kept a tab in the dispenser all the time. The dealer told me I needed to add additional chlorine because of our heavy usage. The package does say maximum 2 bather hours per week. We were at least 4 bather hours per week. He said add a teaspoon of powder chlorine after each use. Another employee at the store said she runs two dispensers. So this means the one guy said I was using too many tabs a week, but in the same breath said I needed to add additional chlorine because of heavy usage, and the other employee said running two dispensers works (which means I would go through about 4 tabs a week. The kit comes with maybe 20 tabs.

4) It'd damned expensive. The package was $150.00 for 5 months worth plus $20.00 for powder chlorine plus I need to buy additional tabs for the dispenser since I ran out after 3 months.

5)My water is clear ever since I have been adding the extra powder chlorine (I add this every other day if we are bathing daily or not at all if we are bathing every other day). I also keep the tab in the dispenser at all times), the water has been nice and clear. What is not clear is if it's the AquaFinesse that is keeping the water clear or just the chlorine. When I measure the chlorine is between 1 and 3 ppm. As an experiment I have been adding 50% of the recommended amount of AquaFinesse liquid for the past month and have not noticed any difference in water clarity.

6) If it's going to come with a dispenser, it should come with two or at least one that can hold 1.5 tabs. The dispenser hold exactly one tab meaning if there is a sliver of the old tab left it won't hold a new tab. The old tab has to be completely gone before you can replenish the dispenser.

When I run out of this stuff I will probably go with just the little dispenser (which seems to keep the level around 1-2 ppm) and add a little powder choline after every time we use the tub.

Eric

[CatalinaSpa2007]

I've been using AF for a year now. Here are my thoughts regading Thumbsie's post:

1). The no sanitizer claim sounds great,but you're right....you need to use at least a small amount of chlorine.

2). I had the same problem as you with the chlorine disolving too fast. The second batch of AF I bought had powdered chlorine, which I was able to extend exactly to the life of the sollution. The most recent batch I bought has the chlorine tablets and so I bought a chlorine floater for $6 from Walmart and I put the AF chlorine dispenser & tablet inside of the floater to slow down the rate the tablet dissolves. Seems to be working good.

3). Not sure what happened. Sometimes upon initial usage the AF ingredients are working there way through the stuff that's left over in your pipes, etc. The instruction state you may see some funk during the first couple weeks. Glad you got it worked out.

4). Yes, it's expensive. I saved a little $ buying a 2-pack off of ebay. However, you're not having to do all the extra testing and adjusting required by other methods.

5). The AF is keeping the water clear. The chlorine is keeping it sanitized.

6). See #2 above for solution.

Using just chlorine (and not the AF solution) is not a good plan going forward. If it were that easy, we'd all be doing it.

Lastly, I clean my filters every 2 months....not every week. We also make sure to completely shower off prior to ever getting in the tub, so this helps extend the filter life a lot.

Good luck!

[chem geek]

Using just chlorine (and not the AF solution) is not a good plan going forward. If it were that easy, we'd all be doing it.

In fact, the majority of spa users (a little more than 50%) do use only chlorine (mostly Dichlor, though some use Trichlor, some use saltwater chlorine generators and some use Dichlor-then-bleach). About one-third use bromine. The rest use a variety of different systems.

One can absolutely use chlorine and have the water remain both clear and sanitary. The key is to use enough oxidizer (chlorine is both an oxidizer and a sanitizer) to handle the bather waste and this can be added immediately after a soak such that one gets to 1-2 ppm FC before the next soak. The main issue with most of the chlorine methods are that they require frequent chlorine addition which is OK if one soaks regularly but is less convenient if one has to add chlorine in between soaks.

[Thumbsie]

Using just chlorine (and not the AF solution) is not a good plan going forward. If it were that easy, we'd all be doing it.

In fact, the majority of spa users (a little more than 50%) do use only chlorine (mostly Dichlor, though some use Trichlor, some use saltwater chlorine generators and some use Dichlor-then-bleach). About one-third use bromine. The rest use a variety of different systems.

One can absolutely use chlorine and have the water remain both clear and sanitary. The key is to use enough oxidizer (chlorine is both an oxidizer and a sanitizer) to handle the bather waste and this can be added immediately after a soak such that one gets to 1-2 ppm FC before the next soak. The main issue with most of the chlorine methods are that they require frequent chlorine addition which is OK if one soaks regularly but is less convenient if one has to add chlorine in between soaks.

The plan for me would be run the dispenser which would deal with the tub when not used for a few days, and add a teaspoon of powder chlorine after each use to deal with bather waste.

The idea of showering (x2 for two people), then drying off, then running downstairs, then getting in the tub, then drying off again (with a wet towel this time)seems like too much work. The tub is supposed to be easy.