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Low Ph/high Ta, Need Advice!


Cougar

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I bought a used Hot Springs Jetsetter spa (225 gal cap.) I use dichlor, Nature2 cartridge, PH up and PH down. I run the spa at 106-108 degrees for several short periods (about 15-20 minutes each) every day as a rehabilitative relief for arthritis. The water is always clear as crystal. I keep the chlorine level at a steady 3 and shock the water about twice a week. I am having a problem maintaining the water at a 7.2-7.4 and if left to its own, it will fall back to 6.8 in a hurry. My TA though is unusually high, ranging around 230-250! Is there any way I can maintain the 7.2-7.4 PH and still bring the TA down to an acceptable level? Note: I've drained and refilled the spa three times in the past two months.)

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I bought a used Hot Springs Jetsetter spa (225 gal cap.) I use dichlor, Nature2 cartridge, PH up and PH down. I run the spa at 106-108 degrees for several short periods (about 15-20 minutes each) every day as a rehabilitative relief for arthritis. The water is always clear as crystal. I keep the chlorine level at a steady 3 and shock the water about twice a week. I am having a problem maintaining the water at a 7.2-7.4 and if left to its own, it will fall back to 6.8 in a hurry. My TA though is unusually high, ranging around 230-250! Is there any way I can maintain the 7.2-7.4 PH and still bring the TA down to an acceptable level? Note: I've drained and refilled the spa three times in the past two months.)

First you need to get your TA down to acceptable range with acid (dry or muriatic, but be careful with the muriatic...you need very little). Once the TA is in range you can raise the pH with borax. This will have minimal impact on the TA. Borax (sodium tetraborate decahydrate) can be found in the grocery store in the green 20 mule team box in the laundry aisle or you can buy a sodium tetraborate product such as Proteam Supreme(basically the same thing except it has less water molecules attached, it is sodium tetraborate pentahydrate, so it is a bit more concentrated and you will need a bit less) and use that but not accoring to package directions. To use either for raising pH start with about 1/4 cup, wait a few hours to a day and test your pH. Repeat until pH is in proper range of 7.2 to 7.4. Be aware that your diclor is part of the reason your pH is low as it is slightly acidic.

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First you need to get your TA down to acceptable range with acid (dry or muriatic, but be careful with the muriatic...you need very little). Once the TA is in range you can raise the pH with borax. This will have minimal impact on the TA. Borax (sodium tetraborate decahydrate) can be found in the grocery store in the green 20 mule team box in the laundry aisle or you can buy a sodium tetraborate product such as Proteam Supreme(basically the same thing except it has less water molecules attached, it is sodium tetraborate pentahydrate, so it is a bit more concentrated and you will need a bit less) and use that but not accoring to package directions. To use either for raising pH start with about 1/4 cup, wait a few hours to a day and test your pH. Repeat until pH is in proper range of 7.2 to 7.4. Be aware that your diclor is part of the reason your pH is low as it is slightly acidic.

I understand the 1/4 cup of borax but does 1/4 cup also apply to the acid? If not, what quantity do I need to start with? Remember this is a 225 gallon spa.

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I understand the 1/4 cup of borax but does 1/4 cup also apply to the acid? If not, what quantity do I need to start with? Remember this is a 225 gallon spa.

I would start with about half a tablespoon and then chekc your pH...you want to get it down to about 7.0 or a bit lower. Then turn on the blower if you have one and open the air jets up and run the spa. As you do two things will happen. the pH will sstart to rise and the TA will go down......continue this until the pH is up about 7.8(it might take a day or so) and check your TA. If it is still too high lower the pH to about 7 again and repeat, There is sound chemistry behind this but the explanation is rather lengthy. Once you get the TA into range then if you need to raise the pH with borax.

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I would start with about half a tablespoon and then chekc your pH...you want to get it down to about 7.0 or a bit lower. Then turn on the blower if you have one and open the air jets up and run the spa. As you do two things will happen. the pH will sstart to rise and the TA will go down......continue this until the pH is up about 7.8(it might take a day or so) and check your TA. If it is still too high lower the pH to about 7 again and repeat, There is sound chemistry behind this but the explanation is rather lengthy. Once you get the TA into range then if you need to raise the pH with borax.

Do you mean add the acid with the spa turned off, stir up the spa, and THEN turn it on? Also, the spa is wired for 110 so when the jets aren't running, the heater heats then. When the jets are on, the heater turns off. As far as I know, there is no way to 'turn on a blower' (unless turning on the jets is what you mean).. I have a light switch, a clean switch, jets switch, and several valves on the side. The valves control the air pumping through the jets. Here is a link to the spa in question http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_..._jetsetter.html

I have been told by several people to never add acid to this spa but for all I know, they could be merely trying to get me to buy their expensive startup chemicals They say drain the thing and start over but I am sick and tired of starting over three times already this spring and summer. They also did their best to convince me to use bromine ,something I tried last year with nightmare results, and now wouldn't use again if they paid ME and gave me the stuff! Sorry about the ramblin' on but I sure don't want to screw this up again! LOL! Thanks waterbear!

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Do you mean add the acid with the spa turned off, stir up the spa, and THEN turn it on? Also, the spa is wired for 110 so when the jets aren't running, the heater heats then. When the jets are on, the heater turns off. As far as I know, there is no way to 'turn on a blower' (unless turning on the jets is what you mean).. I have a light switch, a clean switch, jets switch, and several valves on the side. The valves control the air pumping through the jets. Here is a link to the spa in question http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_..._jetsetter.html

I have been told by several people to never add acid to this spa but for all I know, they could be merely trying to get me to buy their expensive startup chemicals They say drain the thing and start over but I am sick and tired of starting over three times already this spring and summer. They also did their best to convince me to use bromine ,something I tried last year with nightmare results, and now wouldn't use again if they paid ME and gave me the stuff! Sorry about the ramblin' on but I sure don't want to screw this up again! LOL! Thanks waterbear!

Always add the acid with the pump runnig. When your pH is down open the air valve. You will drive off the carbon dioxide that is part of the TA buffer system in the water. As it gases off the pH will rise and the TA will go down. repeat as needed. Realize that the amount of acid you need might be as small as a few teaspoons. Dry acid is easier to measure but either one is fine.

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Always add the acid with the pump runnig. When your pH is down open the air valve. You will drive off the carbon dioxide that is part of the TA buffer system in the water. As it gases off the pH will rise and the TA will go down. repeat as needed. Realize that the amount of acid you need might be as small as a few teaspoons. Dry acid is easier to measure but either one is fine.

I've done this twice and so far the TA hasn't budged but 20-30. and I've noticed no difference in the ph reading with new test strips and a new reagent type test kit. This just doesn't make sense. (And having owned and maintained a 20,000 gallon pool for 30 years, I do know how to test water.) I'm going to give it another few more days and if that doesn't work, I will start all over for the 4th time in two months. If that doesn't 'hold' for more than a month, maybe the combination of a sawzall, a few big boxes, and the dump will relieve the frustrations. (I can always use the leftover chemicals in the pool! LOL)

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I've done this twice and so far the TA hasn't budged but 20-30. and I've noticed no difference in the ph reading with new test strips and a new reagent type test kit. This just doesn't make sense. (And having owned and maintained a 20,000 gallon pool for 30 years, I do know how to test water.) I'm going to give it another few more days and if that doesn't work, I will start all over for the 4th time in two months. If that doesn't 'hold' for more than a month, maybe the combination of a sawzall, a few big boxes, and the dump will relieve the frustrations. (I can always use the leftover chemicals in the pool! LOL)

Oh well, after cooler heads prevailed (the pool does seem to have that effect ;) ), I put the sawzall back in the box and decided to give the spa another chance. I just bought three new filter cartridges and I'm now draining the spa. I notice a whitish-gray kinda powdery ring around the waterline. Since I wasn't able to get the TA down to an acceptable level and since I do have that whitish-gray powdery ring at the waterline, can you tell me a GOOD startup procedure? I've been to several spa dealers and it seems they all have their own brands of 'potions and brews' to sell me. It also seems none of them are in agreement on anything except that I need to drain the thing and start over. I do have a Bioguard dealer here and there's also a Home Depot.. I'd rather use chemicals from one of them if possible if but for no other reason than staying out of major big city holiday traffic. If this HotSprings 225 gallon spa was sitting on YOUR deck or home, what would you do in the way of startup after knowing the problems I have had? BTW, I really appreciate the feedback and assistance waterbear!

Cougar

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Oh well, after cooler heads prevailed (the pool does seem to have that effect ;) ), I put the sawzall back in the box and decided to give the spa another chance. I just bought three new filter cartridges and I'm now draining the spa. I notice a whitish-gray kinda powdery ring around the waterline.

sounds like scaling from high calcium and alkalinty. Usually occurs when the pH is too high.

Since I wasn't able to get the TA down to an acceptable level and since I do have that whitish-gray powdery ring at the waterline, can you tell me a GOOD startup procedure? I've been to several spa dealers and it seems they all have their own brands of 'potions and brews' to sell me. It also seems none of them are in agreement on anything except that I need to drain the thing and start over. I do have a Bioguard dealer here and there's also a Home Depot.. I'd rather use chemicals from one of them if possible if but for no other reason than staying out of major big city holiday traffic. If this HotSprings 225 gallon spa was sitting on YOUR deck or home, what would you do in the way of startup after knowing the problems I have had? BTW, I really appreciate the feedback and assistance waterbear!

Cougar

It is were my spa the first thing I would do is get rid of the N2 and just use chlorine or bromine! Also, DO NOT USE TEST STRIPTS FOR BALANCING. They are fine for quick checks to see if everything is withing parameters but the do not have the precision or resolution (NOT the same as accuracy) to balalnce the water.

Second, I would test my fill water so I know what I am dealing with. Test for TA, CH, and metals.

If there is any iron or coppperI would put in a seqesterant and let the filter operatare for 24 hours. If the Calcium is high I would select a seqesterant that is specific for calcium (usually called Calcium Hardness Reducer). Nether of these things can be done if you are using the N2 so in that case I would fill with softened water since a water softenter will remove both metals and calcium.(a spa filling stick filter will also work...goes on the end of your hose)

Once the spa is filled I would ajust the TA if it is low with baking soda. If it is high I would lower it with acid.

Once it is in balance I would add some calcium to protect the heater if your calcium is below 100 ppm. about 150-200 ppm is what I would shoot for.

I would then shock the spa with liquid chlorine, ultrableach, or dichlor to about 10-15 ppm. (use dichlor if you still have the N2.) and then adjust my pH with either acid or borax to lower or raise it to about 7.4 (borax will raise pH with very minimal effect on your TA.

If you are using the N2 I would then shock the spa with either dichlor or MPS after each use. If you are using just chlorine I would use the dichlor for an outside spa and liquid chlorine or bleach (same thing) for an inside spa. You need some stabilizer for an outside spa on chlorine but it is not necessary or desirable for in indoor spa!

If you decide to go with bromine the procedure is slightly different. (Bromine is NOT compatible with N2!) Once you get to the part of being ready to shock you add sodium bromide to the water to create a bromine bank in the spa and then shock with either liquid chorine or dichlor to activate it.

The chlorine is immediately converted into hypobromous acid. To maintain you then shock after each use and whenever the bromine levels are too low with either liquid chlorine , ultra bleach, dichlor or MPS...all 4 of them will have the same effect of reforming the hypobromous acid. You can also add a floater with bromine tablets but it is not necessary. It does help to maintain a more constant bromine level. Bromine tablets by themselves will NOT work. You need to create the bromine bank first with sodium bromide and activate it with chlorine the first time!

No matter what method you choose you do need to drain and refill about every 3 months or less, depending on usage!

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It is were my spa the first thing I would do is get rid of the N2 and just use chlorine or bromine! Also, DO NOT USE TEST STRIPTS FOR BALANCING. They are fine for quick checks to see if everything is withing parameters but the do not have the precision or resolution (NOT the same as accuracy) to balalnce the water.

Second, I would test my fill water so I know what I am dealing with. Test for TA, CH, and metals.

If there is any iron or coppperI would put in a seqesterant and let the filter operatare for 24 hours. If the Calcium is high I would select a seqesterant that is specific for calcium (usually called Calcium Hardness Reducer). Nether of these things can be done if you are using the N2 so in that case I would fill with softened water since a water softenter will remove both metals and calcium.(a spa filling stick filter will also work...goes on the end of your hose)

Once the spa is filled I would ajust the TA if it is low with baking soda. If it is high I would lower it with acid.

Once it is in balance I would add some calcium to protect the heater if your calcium is below 100 ppm. about 150-200 ppm is what I would shoot for.

I would then shock the spa with liquid chlorine, ultrableach, or dichlor to about 10-15 ppm. (use dichlor if you still have the N2.) and then adjust my pH with either acid or borax to lower or raise it to about 7.4 (borax will raise pH with very minimal effect on your TA.

If you are using the N2 I would then shock the spa with either dichlor or MPS after each use. If you are using just chlorine I would use the dichlor for an outside spa and liquid chlorine or bleach (same thing) for an inside spa. You need some stabilizer for an outside spa on chlorine but it is not necessary or desirable for in indoor spa!

If you decide to go with bromine the procedure is slightly different. (Bromine is NOT compatible with N2!) Once you get to the part of being ready to shock you add sodium bromide to the water to create a bromine bank in the spa and then shock with either liquid chorine or dichlor to activate it.

The chlorine is immediately converted into hypobromous acid. To maintain you then shock after each use and whenever the bromine levels are too low with either liquid chlorine , ultra bleach, dichlor or MPS...all 4 of them will have the same effect of reforming the hypobromous acid. You can also add a floater with bromine tablets but it is not necessary. It does help to maintain a more constant bromine level. Bromine tablets by themselves will NOT work. You need to create the bromine bank first with sodium bromide and activate it with chlorine the first time!

No matter what method you choose you do need to drain and refill about every 3 months or less, depending on usage!

Whewwwwwwwww! I'll have to print this out and meditate on this for a while. Just for curiousity's sake, what would happen if I were to just fill the spa (I already have a stick filter), dump a bottle of SpaSentry into it with the pump running and adjust the ph and chlorine level next morning like the HotSpring dealer said to do? Your method is a bit complicated but the dealer's solution just sounds too darn easy to be any good. (I am kind of wary of the 'simple way'!)

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Whewwwwwwwww! I'll have to print this out and meditate on this for a while. Just for curiousity's sake, what would happen if I were to just fill the spa (I already have a stick filter), dump a bottle of SpaSentry into it with the pump running and adjust the ph and chlorine level next morning like the HotSpring dealer said to do? Your method is a bit complicated but the dealer's solution just sounds too darn easy to be any good. (I am kind of wary of the 'simple way'!)

Well, your original question was about high TA so either your dumped a LOT of baking soda into the spa or your fill water has high TA. You have also seen some scale deposit in the spa...High TA, high calcium and high pH cause this. If you keep notes on what you need and how much to get the water balanced the next time you drain and refill you will know just how much of everything to add to get it right so it becomes easier.

You asked for my advice as to what I would do if it were my spa. I told you I would get rid of the N2, balance the water, and use either chlorine or bromine.

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Whewwwwwwwww! I'll have to print this out and meditate on this for a while. Just for curiousity's sake, what would happen if I were to just fill the spa (I already have a stick filter), dump a bottle of SpaSentry into it with the pump running and adjust the ph and chlorine level next morning like the HotSpring dealer said to do? Your method is a bit complicated but the dealer's solution just sounds too darn easy to be any good. (I am kind of wary of the 'simple way'!)

I just realized that I didn't mention that this spa has an ozone system (FreshWater® III Corona Discharge) installed. Pardon my chemical ignorance but does this come into play with all this? Another question, why does every spa dealer in this area (I called 7) say to NEVER add acid to a spa? Why do they all say that acid even (in small amounts) should never be used in a spa and will ruin the spa? Don't take offense but I am receiving a huge amount of conflicting info. I've maintained a large vinyl pool for 35 years and never found a problem Starnge, I had no problems at all last year with this spa but this year has been such a headache that the 'sawzall-trash dump' thought is looking better by the minute. Are Hot Springs spas prone to these problems with ultra high TA???

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I just realized that I didn't mention that this spa has an ozone system (FreshWater® III Corona Discharge) installed. Pardon my chemical ignorance but does this come into play with all this? Another question, why does every spa dealer in this area (I called 7) say to NEVER add acid to a spa? Why do they all say that acid even (in small amounts) should never be used in a spa and will ruin the spa? Don't take offense but I am receiving a huge amount of conflicting info. I've maintained a large vinyl pool for 35 years and never found a problem Starnge, I had no problems at all last year with this spa but this year has been such a headache that the 'sawzall-trash dump' thought is looking better by the minute. Are Hot Springs spas prone to these problems with ultra high TA???

If you have an ozone system then I would recommend bromine over chlorine. Ozone will reactivate the bromine bank automatically...this will be the easiest way to sanitize! Ozone and chlorine fight each other. Ozone and bromine play together very well! :D

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If you have an ozone system then I would recommend bromine over chlorine. Ozone will reactivate the bromine bank automatically...this will be the easiest way to sanitize! Ozone and chlorine fight each other. Ozone and bromine play together very well! :D

No bromine. (Allergy) :(

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If you have an ozone system then I would recommend bromine over chlorine. Ozone will reactivate the bromine bank automatically...this will be the easiest way to sanitize! Ozone and chlorine fight each other. Ozone and bromine play together very well! :D

Where did you come up with that? I have never heard of such a thing?

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Where did you come up with that? I have never heard of such a thing?

basic chemistry of bromine...most people think that by putting a bromine tab in a floater they are running bromine...they are not. First you have to establish a 'bromine bank' in the water with sodium bromide...you then activate it with hypochlorous acid which is immediately converterd into hypobromous acid (translation, you start a bromine spa by putting the sodium bromide in the water and activating it with chlorine!) If you want you can now put the tabs in the floater to help maintain the levels but it really isn't necessary...all you need to do is add an oxidizer to the water to reactive the hypobromous acid from the 'bromine bank". This is usually called 'shocking' and can be accomlised with either chlorine (usually liquid, dichlor, or in the bromine tabs...yes there is chlorine in the bromine tabs!), MPS (potassium monopersulfate, Oxone, non-chlorine shock), or ozone, which will convert the sodium bromide into hypobromus acid as long as it is being generated....sort of automates the whole process! what all these have in commen is they are oxidizers.

As far as ozone and chlorine..Hypochloruous acid depletes ozone and ozone lowers free chlorine levels....they fight each other....While you gain some sanitation from the ozone you will need more chlorine to maintain proper residual than with out it. Also the chlorine breaks down the ozone. The chemisty is exactly the same as occurs in the atmosphere with the depletion of the ozone layer by chlorine and chlorine compounds . Bromine also destroys ozone but in the process hypobromous acid is formed, which is the sanitizer in a bromine system. Bromine also destroys chlorine. It converts it into hypobromous acid once again! When ozone reacts with chlorine this type of reaction does not occur and chlorine monoxide is formed.

I just realized that I didn't mention that this spa has an ozone system (FreshWater® III Corona Discharge) installed. Pardon my chemical ignorance but does this come into play with all this? Another question, why does every spa dealer in this area (I called 7) say to NEVER add acid to a spa? Why do they all say that acid even (in small amounts) should never be used in a spa and will ruin the spa? Don't take offense but I am receiving a huge amount of conflicting info. I've maintained a large vinyl pool for 35 years and never found a problem Starnge, I had no problems at all last year with this spa but this year has been such a headache that the 'sawzall-trash dump' thought is looking better by the minute. Are Hot Springs spas prone to these problems with ultra high TA???

Main reason they say never to add acid to the water is twofold...

One, dosing with acid is going to be in teaspoons or fractons thereof up to maybe an ounce. It's much harder to measure than dry acid and very easy to overdose but it can be done.

Two, they want to sell you the expensive spa chemicals to keep their profit line up! (I happen to be in the pool/spa business so I have some perspective on this.)

The ultra high TA is either from your fill water, or from overdosing on sodium carbonate (soda ash, washing soda, pH increaser...raises BOTH pH and TA quite fast) and sodium bicarbonate (baking soda, alkalinity increaser, which some people use in error to raise the pH of a spa! It raises TA with miminal impact on pH...usually raising it to about 7.8. Borax will raise pH with minimal impact on TA since it does not add carbonate or bicarbonates to the water, which is what your TA actually is, the carbonic acid/carbonate/bicarbonate buffer system in the water. Borax introduces a secondary boric acid/ borate buffer system)

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Skin tests for allergy. The doc took a history of my general lifestyle and activities before conducting the usual battery of allergy tests. When I mentioned swimming and using a spa, he tested for allergies to variious pool/spa chems in solution and found allergy for bromine and to a much lesser extent, iodine (though not a pool/spa chem, it is in the same basic family). Actually, the allergy is quite common according to him. BTW Andy, your 'question' of "Where did you come up with that? I have never heard of such a thing?" is a tipoff there may be quite a few things you've 'never heard of' and I take offence at your umbrage.

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Chlorine is a halogen just like bromine and iodine. If you have a true sensitivity to halogens then perhaps biguinide might be the best choice for you. Biguinde is, IMHO, not a first choice for a santizer...it is the most expensive and has the most problems but it might be your best solution. Biguinide is known under the brand names Baquaspa, SoftSwim, Revacil, and some private label names. If it were me I would get a second opinion since true halogen sensitivity is not all that commen from what I understand (and Ihave mutliple allergies and have had various types of testing and treatments over the years...skin testing is an obsolete method of allergy testing these days!)

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Chlorine is a halogen just like bromine and iodine. If you have a true sensitivity to halogens then perhaps biguinide might be the best choice for you. Biguinde is, IMHO, not a first choice for a santizer...it is the most expensive and has the most problems but it might be your best solution. Biguinide is known under the brand names Baquaspa, SoftSwim, Revacil, and some private label names. If it were me I would get a second opinion since true halogen sensitivity is not all that commen from what I understand (and Ihave mutliple allergies and have had various types of testing and treatments over the years...skin testing is an obsolete method of allergy testing these days!)

I tolerate the chlorine fairly well. (50mg dyphenhydramine hydrochloride 30 minutes before entering pool or spa works well)

No second opinions are necessary (been there, done that, quack quack, guess guess.) when you already have the top allergist in the S.E. Actually, the 'skin tests' are (in reality) extremely tiny injections just under the first layer or two of skin instead of the old type 'scratch and a drop'. . I'll stick with chlorine and avoid spending my money on the overpriced 'newest greatest chems' offered by our local greedy dealers. You see, just like another poster on this forum, I too am a member of the CBOA. :lol:

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I tolerate the chlorine fairly well. (50mg dyphenhydramine hydrochloride 30 minutes before entering pool or spa works well)

No second opinions are necessary (been there, done that, quack quack, guess guess.) when you already have the top allergist in the S.E. Actually, the 'skin tests' are (in reality) extremely tiny injections just under the first layer or two of skin instead of the old type 'scratch and a drop'.

Sounds like 'provocative testing'....had that done in the past.

. I'll stick with chlorine and avoid spending my money on the overpriced 'newest greatest chems' offered by our local greedy dealers. You see, just like another poster on this forum, I too am a member of the CBOA. :lol:

CBOA? not familiar with that one! If you can tolerate the chlorine then that would be my first choice. I was only suggesting biguinide as a last resort. It's very expensive and the water is never really good. Have you actually tried a bromine spa to see if the reaction is bad? If you can tolerate the chlorine with some benadryl then you might be able to do the same with bromine. Only reason I suggest this is becuase of the ozonator. It would really make your water care much simpler.

EDIT: just understood what CBOA stands for....took me a while. Guess I have to admit I'm a member too!

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